older Scuba diver certification and how it relates to current classes

[Kidder]

I recently got my advance OW with two people who had the old scuba diver certification. They've been certified about 20 years (I think). They way that they described their course it was much more involved and took much longer. I talked to the dive instructor and he said that he may have to give them thier OW in order for PADI to issue thier advaced. Does this sound right?

[dutchman]

It is all about the $$$. I started diving in 1964. Finally had to get a "C" card to get my tanks filled in 2005. Unless they are friends with a dive instructor, most likely they will start from scratch. I have been told that even though I can show on my dive computer 100's of dive before certification, it does not count towards any future certification. I am working on Master Diver cert. Still have a long way to go. It is a shame experience does not count for much.

[plot]

with PADI they probably do want money.

find a different agency and you might be alright.

[Kidder]

Wow, these guys went through a much tougher class than I. Have a PADI certification (they have cards), and still it doesn't count? I think PADI needs to check themselves on this one...

[RECDiver]

At one time NAUI had an experienced diver certification for divers who had been diving but not been certified. I will have to look up if they still have it. Back in the late 70s and early 80s it was practical, but I have not heard of the cert in awhile. I'll see what I can find out.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Kidder

They've been certified about 20 years (I think). They way that they described their course it was much more involved and took much longer.

I had a padi OW, AOW and Rescue card. Then I signed up for a Los Angeles County class.
A bit of history: LA County was the first scuba training agency for recreational scuba. They pre-date the YMCA and NAUI, PADI came later. LA county UWIA (underwater instructors assoc.) started in 1954. The county still teaches using the same old standards. This agency only has three levels OW, ADP (Advanced Driver Program), and Instructor. I did ADP. It is an all Summer and into Fall length class that meets every weekend (two long days). It covers about twice as much material as the combined NAUI Rescue and Master Diver classes. (I know I've done those too.) Unlike any modern class they still cover skin diving. We did free dive drills like "unresponsive scuba diver at the bottom -- free dive down and bring him up. Also pool swimming and pool rescues are covered. We had to do the old lifeguard drills like swim 50M underwater, bring a weight belt up from deep end. No swim aids, just swim suit. We swam laps of the pool before every class and in the ocean before every dive. They also included a chamber ride to 160fsw and an intro to hard hat diving with surface supplied air. Added to the dives were many hours of lectures by well qualified guests. For example the person teaching dive physiology was an MD, the guy teaching decompression theory was the person who ran the local chamber. Search and Rescue was covered by Fire Department divers who do this work full time.
A real physicist covered diving physics and so on. Los Angeles County has been teaching SCUBA for just over 50 years now and they've not changed much. The program is modeled on US Navy programs. LA county must be the only recreational scuba agency still using Navy tables

We got to do some of the old school drills that no OW class does any more. One was "bail out". You hold all your gear in your arms: Mask, tank and BC, weight belt fins and so on. Air is turned off. Then you jump in the water and hit bottom, thud. First step is to turn on air and find reg. After that most will go for the mask. The goal is to put on all the gear and then hover over the bottom. Instructors do a more advanced version where the gear is first put into 30 fsw and they have to swim down with no mask of fins and get it and put it on. This I was told was a hold over from "standard" US Navy training classes. There were some other variations of "swim down and get your gear" drills some in the ocean and some in the pool.

One old school OW skill is to toss a mask and snorkel in the deep end of a pool then jump in with just a swim suit and get it. The goal is to have the mask clear before reaching the surface then clear and breath with snorkel, not lifting your head from the water as you swim a pool length.
This was harder than the PADI "flood the mask while on scuba" skill because you only have one breath and you are swimming not on your knees.

Another BIG difference with PADI was they students were not "checked of" on each skill, they were allowed to fail, they'd just keep giving harder skills if you did one correctly. No one could do them all. For example the ones who passed the 10 minute treading water test got to try it with a weight belt. Rather then teach to a standard that everyone could pass, they pushed every student past their ability. Very much different from current methods.

One of the guests giving a lecture on the history of diving was a past executive director of PADI. He was well qualified to explain way PADI changed the way diving was taught. It seems that in the 1970's Padi hired some marketing consultants and was told that basically no one would sign up for a class that takes 4 months and even more so, no one would pay for it. So they chopped of the material into smaller bites that shops could actually sell. The "advanced" class was re-named "master" and OW was cut up into OW, AOW and Rescue.

Another BIG difference is that the old method was to put all the students in one big class, three dozen students in my case, but in years past hundreds in one class. The class is taught by a "course director" and a large number instructors so the student instructor ratio is maybe 3:1 for in-water work while the class is big enough to make it worth the effort to bring in expert guest lecturers. Very different from today's style scuba classes, more like way the Navy works.

LA County did not need to charge me $5,000 because they get "free" insurance under a county wide department of parks policy and free use of county facilities, pools, classrooms and so on. plus all of the instructors donate their time.

Good to know that some one is keeping the old style 1950's training alive see www.lascuba.com/index.html

[Kidder]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I had a padi OW, AOW and Rescue card. Then I signed up for a Los Angeles County class.
A bit of history: LA County was the first scuba training agency for recreational scuba. They pre-date the YMCA and NAUI, PADI came later. LA county UWIA (underwater instructors assoc.) started in 1954. The county still teaches using the same old standards. This agency only has three levels OW, ADP (Advanced Driver Program), and Instructor. I did ADP. It is an all Summer and into Fall length class that meets every weekend (two long days). It covers about twice as much material as the combined NAUI Rescue and Master Diver classes. (I know I've done those too.) Unlike any modern class they still cover skin diving. We did free dive drills like "unresponsive scuba diver at the bottom -- free dive down and bring him up. Also pool swimming and pool rescues are covered. We had to do the old lifeguard drills like swim 50M underwater, bring a weight belt up from deep end. No swim aids, just swim suit. We swam laps of the pool before every class and in the ocean before every dive. They also included a chamber ride to 160fsw and an intro to hard hat diving with surface supplied air. Added to the dives were many hours of lectures by well qualified guests. For example the person teaching dive physiology was an MD, the guy teaching decompression theory was the person who ran the local chamber. Search and Rescue was covered by Fire Department divers who do this work full time.
A real physicist covered diving physics and so on. Los Angeles County has been teaching SCUBA for just over 50 years now and they've not changed much. The program is modeled on US Navy programs. LA county must be the only recreational scuba agency still using Navy tables

We got to do some of the old school drills that no OW class does any more. One was "bail out". You hold all your gear in your arms: Mask, tank and BC, weight belt fins and so on. Air is turned off. Then you jump in the water and hit bottom, thud. First step is to turn on air and find reg. After that most will go for the mask. The goal is to put on all the gear and then hover over the bottom. Instructors do a more advanced version where the gear is first put into 30 fsw and they have to swim down with no mask of fins and get it and put it on. This I was told was a hold over from "standard" US Navy training classes. There were some other variations of "swim down and get your gear" drills some in the ocean and some in the pool.

One old school OW skill is to toss a mask and snorkel in the deep end of a pool then jump in with just a swim suit and get it. The goal is to have the mask clear before reaching the surface then clear and breath with snorkel, not lifting your head from the water as you swim a pool length.
This was harder than the PADI "flood the mask while on scuba" skill because you only have one breath and you are swimming not on your knees.

Another BIG difference with PADI was they students were not "checked of" on each skill, they were allowed to fail, they'd just keep giving harder skills if you did one correctly. No one could do them all. For example the ones who passed the 10 minute treading water test got to try it with a weight belt. Rather then teach to a standard that everyone could pass, they pushed every student past their ability. Very much different from current methods.

One of the guests giving a lecture on the history of diving was a past executive director of PADI. He was well qualified to explain way PADI changed the way diving was taught. It seems that in the 1970's Padi hired some marketing consultants and was told that basically no one would sign up for a class that takes 4 months and even more so, no one would pay for it. So they chopped of the material into smaller bites that shops could actually sell. The "advanced" class was re-named "master" and OW was cut up into OW, AOW and Rescue.

Another BIG difference is that the old method was to put all the students in one big class, three dozen students in my case, but in years past hundreds in one class. The class is taught by a "course director" and a large number instructors so the student instructor ratio is maybe 3:1 for in-water work while the class is big enough to make it worth the effort to bring in expert guest lecturers. Very different from today's style scuba classes, more like way the Navy works.

LA County did not need to charge me $5,000 because they get "free" insurance under a county wide department of parks policy and free use of county facilities, pools, classrooms and so on. plus all of the instructors donate their time.

Good to know that some one is keeping the old style 1950's training alive see www.lascuba.com/index.html

Wow this sounds like some very intense classes. You would have to be in shape and on top of your game. Seems like the course for a very serious scuda diver. This would be awesome for those who are thinking about making a scuba diving profession. Thank you for posting this ChrisA. I bet you have some serious dive under your belt and in your future. Do you do tec dives? or is that a silly question?

[Krakenn]

I did a FAUI course, Australian certification back in the early eighties and it is now defunct as a tester in Australia except for one store in South Australia I think.

I used this card (FAUI) and went straight ahead and undertook my Advanced PADI without any problems, so I guess it depends on the instructor or store. if they wont do it, I'd go to another LDS.

Kraks

[RECDiver]

Originally Posted by Kidder

I recently got my advance OW with two people who had the old scuba diver certification. They've been certified about 20 years (I think). They way that they described their course it was much more involved and took much longer. I talked to the dive instructor and he said that he may have to give them thier OW in order for PADI to issue thier advaced. Does this sound right?

No, it doesn't sound right. They already have a certification and doesn't matter the agency. Obviously the instructor felt confident with them to take the Advanced course without having to retake the beginning course. Since they passed the Advanced course, then they should recieve the Advanced card. Telling them that they have to pay for the OW card is a ripoff. Oh, and yes, their beginning course was much more academics and pool work than is taught now.

[chace_nicole]

Originally Posted by dutchman

It is all about the $$$. I started diving in 1964. Finally had to get a "C" card to get my tanks filled in 2005. Unless they are friends with a dive instructor, most likely they will start from scratch. I have been told that even though I can show on my dive computer 100's of dive before certification, it does not count towards any future certification. I am working on Master Diver cert. Still have a long way to go. It is a shame experience does not count for much.

that doesn't seem very fair, what agency?