DM Cert = More liability??

[Puffer Fish]

Originally Posted by ReefHound

Don't confuse a licensed and registered doctor with a diver. You're simply wrong. There is no legal obligation to render assistance except in narrow circumstances. But if you do, absent gross negligence, Good Samaritan laws are nearly bulletproof.

Furthermore, lawyers who attempt to file lawsuits on Good Samaritans have a high burden to prove such gross negligence and face sanctions for violations.

How convenient that you provide all these examples that are "sealed". Well if a diver doesn't have insurance they can't settle, thus no seal. Where are these references?

I predict I'll get a lot of armchair expertise and anecdotal evidence but not one verifiable reference of a diver, not one acting in a professional capacity such as instructing students, but on a pleasure dive being successfully sued when he was not directly responsible.

I think you are applying common sense to the legal system...

First off, to my knowledge, only 36 states have good Samaritan laws.. you know which one don't? Of those 36, not all cover everyone... the easiest to understand is California, where the law only covers medical professionals and now only covers medical assistance.

Good Samaritan Ruling - California Good Samaritan Law - Good Samaritan Appellate Court Decision

There are also a series of laws (Mass has one) that do require assistance (with a lot of rules). Canada is somewhat famous for their's.

I would agree with you that I have no knowledge of a diver -just a regular diver being sued. But then, that information can be very hard to find....

Take this gem:

CDNN :: Dive Buddy Killed Scuba Diving Husband Says Widow



You might find this interesting, although the case he is refering to is no longer available -

Overlawyered letters: Scuba diving

As you can see, there are cases, not common, but cases where being a professional diver does have legal responsibilities.

Note: Just get old copies of Scuba Diver, and the case is very real.

PADI has long made the claim that they have not lost a law suit... yet their legal costs have gone up faster than any other agency...yet finding any case they have "lost" is not easy to do.

It is common practice today, that settlements for any really public organization, are not made public....making your arguement that if you don't see it, it must not have happened, somewhat less that valid.

This information from a legal site, give an indication that there may be a few more law suits than one would guess by reading the news:

Diving into Scuba Litigation - Maryland Physician / Attorneys, Merck, Heart Attacks, Strokes - Lawyers

I should note, that the issue of a dive professional is not addressed in this article, but if you email them, you will get a far different legal perspective than the one you have stated as fact.

[ReefHound]

Originally Posted by Puffer Fish

I think you are applying common sense to the legal system...

I would agree with you that I have no knowledge of a diver -just a regular diver being sued. But then, that information can be very hard to find....

Just as I predicted...

That was quite a bit of blathering to mask the only relevant point.

Re: California, you might note that CA *does* have a Good Samaritan law on the books. The issue you cite is an appellate ruling earlier this year that has raised doubts about it, expect the legislature to close them next session. In the meantime, don't try to save anyone there.

[ReefHound]

Originally Posted by CompuDude

I've worked in the legal industry since 1990 (on the insurance end, for much of that). I can personally say that this is not true, having witnessed far too many frivolous (and non-frivolous) lawsuits cross my desk, and seen people that never should have been involved need a lawyer's assistance in getting out of the mess. Even people that aren't directly named in a lawsuit can be impacted considerably, in terms of subpoenas, interviews, depositions, and trial appearances... all time off work that goes uncompensated, and the need to pay an attorney to represent you to make sure you aren't dragged into something you shouldn't be.

Are you sure you're not confusing insurance claims with lawsuits? So you've seen so many cases, where are the references that I asked for? Like I said, lots of anecdotal stories, no verifiable references.

My BIL is a personal injury lawyer and he has often said he wished it was 1/100th as easy to "go after" people as the public thinks it is. When you file a lawsuit you are petitioning the court to accept it, you must show cause why a rescuer named in the suit is not subject to Good Samaritan or other applicable civil immunity protections, and if you sue in bad faith you can be disbarred.

You might be interested in knowing that lawyers do not file personal suits on their own behalf with any more frequency than average.

Re: being affected by subpoenas, interviews, depositions, and trial appearances is irrelevant... insurance does not protect you from that.

[CompuDude]

Originally Posted by ReefHound

Are you sure you're not confusing insurance claims with lawsuits? So you've seen so many cases, where are the references that I asked for? Like I said, lots of anecdotal stories, no verifiable references.

My BIL is a personal injury lawyer and he has often said he wished it was 1/100th as easy to "go after" people as the public thinks it is. When you file a lawsuit you are petitioning the court to accept it, you must show cause why a rescuer named in the suit is not subject to Good Samaritan or other applicable civil immunity protections, and if you sue in bad faith you can be disbarred.

You might be interested in knowing that lawyers do not file personal suits on their own behalf with any more frequency than average.

Re: being affected by subpoenas, interviews, depositions, and trial appearances is irrelevant... insurance does not protect you from that.

I give up. You clearly know more about this than I do. You obviously have a better way to prove a negative than I do of accessing confidential settlement files from law firms scattered around the country.

[ReefHound]

Originally Posted by Puffer Fish

It is common practice today, that settlements for any really public organization, are not made public....making your arguement that if you don't see it, it must not have happened, somewhat less that valid.

No it doesn't because we are not talking about large public organizations but rather individual divers. You're introducing irrelevant and out of scope information to distract from the subject at hand - the liability of an average diver who is a DM but not acting in a professional capacity. Re-read the thread title, please.

[ReefHound]

Originally Posted by CompuDude

I give up. You clearly know more about this than I do. You obviously have a better way to prove a negative than I do of accessing confidential settlement files from law firms scattered around the country.

OK, so you believe every lawsuit ever filed against an average diver has been settled confidentially and the records sealed? How convenient?

I suppose next you'll tell me you know for a fact that ghosts exist, except you can't provide actual evidence because... well... they're INVISIBLE!

You guys are probably the same ones who blasted the media for sensationalizing incidents of accidental shark bites and hyping it up into the Summer of the Shark a few years ago. You're doing the same thing with this legal scaremongering, as if divers are losing their houses right and left over frivolous lawsuits.

Let me ask ya a real question. Why do you feel protected by having insurance? There is no law that limits your liability to your coverage limits or prevents a lawyer for suing for more. If you have a million dollars coverage and a jury awards 2 million, you're on the hook for the extra million. Could it be because lawyers typically sue/settle for the coverage limits of the policy? And without insurance your coverage limits are what?

[Puffer Fish]

Originally Posted by ReefHound

OK, so you believe every lawsuit ever filed against an average diver has been settled confidentially and the records sealed? How convenient?

I suppose next you'll tell me you know for a fact that ghosts exist, except you can't provide actual evidence because... well... they're INVISIBLE!

You guys are probably the same ones who blasted the media for sensationalizing incidents of accidental shark bites and hyping it up into the Summer of the Shark a few years ago. You're doing the same thing with this legal scaremongering, as if divers are losing their houses right and left over frivolous lawsuits.

Let me ask ya a real question. Why do you feel protected by having insurance? There is no law that limits your liability to your coverage limits or prevents a lawyer for suing for more. If you have a million dollars coverage and a jury awards 2 million, you're on the hook for the extra million. Could it be because lawyers typically sue/settle for the coverage limits of the policy? And without insurance your coverage limits are what?

Reef, all of the links I used were individual's sued by other divers...one for being a buddy.. nothing more than that. One for being an instructor on a boat (not working... just going diving)...

I only showed that the good samaritan laws are not the protection you said they were, because of your post.

The legal thread discussed the fact that any diver, who is diving as a "buddy" actually has a whole set of legal responsibilities.

I cannot speak for others, but I don't believe that there are thousands of lawsuits....I would doubt hundreds...but the thread subject is about increased liability... and like it or not, it does.

I also do not believe that all cases are sealed....those that do involve insurance settlements normally are, and that would include dive professionals that get sued and have insurance.

What I believe is the case, is that they are just not reported. Did you know of the ones in those threads? I didn't.

Just where would you go to find that information...when I was an active instructor, NAUI had an annual review of the legal cases associated with the diving. Typically it was around 50 cases a year, of which around 25-30% were against individual's. I don't have a clue what that is today.

Yea, it sure is hard to bring a law suit... 15,000,000 this year...with, interestingly enough, Texas being rather famous for them:

Reduce the large number of lawsuits

And there is some protection with the good samaritan laws, in some states, but more than 20 provide absolutely none...(17 don't have any... and at least three that do, only protect medical professionals).

True this, you are far more likely to be sued than to be hit by lighting... or be bit by a shark...

[ReefHound]

Puff, I saw two cites on individual divers, one of them was on an instructional dive (over lawyered) and the other was a case of alleged murder. Hardly what we are talking about. I'll be the first to say that dive professionals should have insurance if they are acting in a professional capacity.

Name some of the states with no Good Samaritan law. Here's a site that claims to list not only the immunity coverage but the applicable statute numbers for ALL 50 states plus DC. So for which 17 did they make up statute numbers?

Or this site that says "Some form of good-samaritan legislation has been enacted in all 50 states and the District of Columbia."

California does not *limit* protection to medical personnel, it specifically addresses them because they are at higher risk.

Pointing out "15 million suits" per year is yet another piece of irrelevant distracting info. We aren't talking about general litigation for everything, and I'll bet over half of them involve an automobile. We are talking about divers being sued for just being there, and I think the diver is more likely to get struck by lightning than that.

Just for fun, how would you guess the number of insured divers sued compared to the number of uninsured divers sued?

10,000 divers here and 50,000 on Scubaboard, any of them willing to say they have been sued for "everything they got" for "just being there"?

[CompuDude]

Originally Posted by ReefHound

<snipped>

Take a chill, sparky. You're starting to make personal attacks that really aren't justified. We're trying to keep this board friendlier than the others.

[in_cavediver]

Originally Posted by ian

I agree!

Well put! I, too, would like to see such a verifiable reference.

This is a reference to a NAUI lawsuit and an instructor involved in the situation. It is NOT a reference to an "bystander" DM being sued. THAT’s the reference I’m looking for.

Pardon? Can you provide me with the citations for such laws, please?

In fact, if you have ever taught a CPR or First Aid class, one of the points to stress is that the trained person is NOT required by law to respond!

Even more to the topic: Does the DM/OWSI/Diver not on duty, but merely a "bystander" have a duty of care to the victim?

I agree wholeheartedly with your first statement but disagree strongly with your last.

Does ANYONE have a verifiable case of a Divemaster who was an "bystander" being sued for not responding in an emergency?

I think we actually agree. My last point was not that a DM/OWSI would always get sued but would garner more attention due to the increased level of training etc. Its like this, if there was a car accident, two people were present, a paramedic and ordinary guy. Wouldn't you look into whether the paramedic had any obligation to act more so than the other guy?