Simulating Nitrogen Narcosis

[GruPoo]

While going through OW I noticed the beginning pool skills often stated 'in water shallow enough to stand'. This makes good sense considering it gives the student\instructor an easy recovery should matters dictate.

I am reading on narcosis. Most of my literature states the effect only occurs after 20 meters. This is a poor depth to find you have not drilled properly for such an event. Could a cost effective and relevant program be developed that allows for drilling of narcosis at shallower (more safe) depths? Is it a benefit to anyone and how would we keep folks from abusing it?

[RoadRacer1978]

How are you proposing we drill for Narcosis? The depth and nitrogen are what cause narcosis, so take away the depth and you can't experience narcosis for real. They make glasses you can wear to simulate being drunk, and while they are fun to play with, they do not truly give you the effects of being drunk. They blur you vision, but your brain still functions as sober. So how do you truly simulate being narced without experiencing narcosis. I ask this question, because to my knowledge there is no way to experience it or know how you will react until it hapens. That is one of the main reasons to do AOW and deep training to experience narcosis while under the supervision of someone who is trainied and should be experienced in dealing with narcosis.

[No Misses]

It's funny that two people started almost Identical threads at the same time. You might want to take a look at Carabeandiver's thread on AOW - Narcosis.
http://forum.scubatoys.com/general-scuba-training-questions/7922-aow-narcosis.html

As was stated in the other thread - Nitrogen narcosis is like being intoxicated. It affects your problem solving skills. Everybody is affected. It is just that some people are more susceptible to its affects. The key is to recognize that you are impaired and to make your decisions based on that fact.

[divingchef]

good test= half a bottle of Don Julio Reposado and then try to play tennis.....

[ReefHound]

You could always ask your local hyperbaric chamber to give you a 120 foot demo dive on air. Not likely but that would be the only way to truly "test" for it. The Navy tests all diving applicants this way to check for narcosis susceptibility. Hey, there you go! Join the Navy!

[GruPoo]

I do not think we can simulate depth in a cost effective way. Chamber time would be too costly.

I like the idea of drunk divers in a pool but am worried about a "SCUBA gone wild" video being made.

Oddly one of my drills (above 10 feet)is to have someone shut off my air to see how fast I realize it. [With my current set up I can get four breaths, noticing the cut off on the second breath.] This gave me a thought. Is it possible to introduce N20 into a system? Would this give us a good sense of the effect? Does anyone know of literature on this?

By nature I am obsessive. If I can drill something before encountering it I will "drill it into the ground".

[RoadRacer1978]

I'm not sure of the effects or dangers of introducing nitrous oxide into a scuba system and breathing it at any depth, but here is an article I found describing some of the possible side effects and dangers of such a venture.

Some of the Dangers of Nitrous Oxide

Some excerpts from the above referenced article:

Breathing it directly from pressurized tanks is dangerous for two reasons. First, gas flowing from such tanks is very cold -- cold enough to cause frostbite of noses, lips and (most serious) vocal cords.

Second, because nitrous oxide does not support life, it should be mixed with oxygen if it is to be breathed for more than a few minutes. At private parties, oxygen tanks are rarely supplied, and people have died of asphyxiation by breathing straight nitrous oxide through face masks.

"People who breathe nitrous oxide for more than a few minutes at a time may experience nausea, especially if they have just eaten. They may also feel hung over for some time after. Addiction to nitrous oxide is a real possibility. Addicts may suffer serious mood and personality changes in addition to the bone marrow and nervous system damage already mentioned."

if you "must" do nitrous for a longer period be sure to take high doses of folic acid (is also depleted from your body as a result of functional B12 deficiency ) and vitamin B12.

Also, but less well known, the state of B12 deficiency caused by regular use of nitrous oxide produces hyperhomocysteinemia, an accumulation in the blood of the amino acid homocysteine. Hyperhomocysteinemia is a risk factor for vascular disease of all sorts. Furthermore, hyperhomocysteinemia, B12 deficiency and folic acid deficiency early in pregnancy all increase the risk of getting a child with a neural tube defect (spina bifida and anencephaly, childeren with no brains or open spinal cord). If you are a woman, planning to get pregnant or just "at risk of getting pregnant", nitrous is a bad idea.

N2O does not combine with haemoglobin, but is carried free in the blood and excreted unchanged through the lungs. The risk of hypoxia comes not from any interaction between N2O and O2 in the blood or brain, but from simply not inhaling oxygen often enough. The vast majority of deaths from N2O abuse have been through stupidity (tying a plastic bag full of N2O round the head, letting off a tank in a airtight place, that sort of thing). There have been a few cases of malignant hyperthermia (raised body temperature),and this is considered a potentially serious threat to those with the genetic requirement (check out your family history - look for deaths during surgery, both minor and major).

Nitrous oxide will dissolve out of blood into air filled spaces eg the intestines, the middle ear. N2O in the gut will just give you a gut pain, but if you have ever had middle ear disease, or damaged ear drums, you could be in for permanent hearing loss.

Seems like too much risk to try such a thing when there are safer alternatives such as trining with qualified instructors.

[DiverBry]

Originally Posted by GruPoo

I do not think we can simulate depth in a cost effective way. Chamber time would be too costly.

I like the idea of drunk divers in a pool but am worried about a "SCUBA gone wild" video being made.

Oddly one of my drills (above 10 feet)is to have someone shut off my air to see how fast I realize it. [With my current set up I can get four breaths, noticing the cut off on the second breath.] This gave me a thought. Is it possible to introduce N20 into a system? Would this give us a good sense of the effect? Does anyone know of literature on this?

By nature I am obsessive. If I can drill something before encountering it I will "drill it into the ground".

GruPoo,

Purposefully putting an anaesthetic into a Scuba cylinder is just too dangerous. There are serious medical, moral, and legal issues with that notion... so much so, I don't think it could ever happen.

The diving industry's recommendation would be for you to sign up for an Advanced Open Water Course and/or take the Deep Dive specialty, and schedule your first deep dives under the care and supervision of a qualified instructor.

If you run into trouble, your instructors are there to help you out, and to assess your reaction to nitrogen at those depths.

Be safe!

[GruPoo]

I am reading my own post and realized they might seems a bit off. Please understand I a proposing a method. I have no intention of trying it out, nor should anyone else, until it is lab certified, vendor approved and tested. [A side note, I am planing orientation drills with bungee cords (at 10 feet or less). It is my hope to detected any movment, its direction and speed in under one foot]

N20 used to be carried by EMTs in Arizona. That was stopped due to a rash of leaky cylinders. At least according to the paper work.

Personally I signed up for the NAUI AOW right after PADI OW. My intention is to wait three to six months (20-40 dives) then proceed to the AOW course if I feel ready.

[RoadRacer1978]

I wasn't trying to slam you idea, and your proposal got me to thinking. That's why I took the time to do some research on the matter on the internet and post my findings. I doesn't look like a good idea, but it takes ideas to progress things. Who would have thought that one day we would be breathing Nitrox, Heliox, Trimix and who knows what other gases. Things constantly progress and whos to say that someday in the future there won't be a way to introduce narcosis into an even more controlled enviroment. So, please don't think I was scolding you or slamming your idea. Just another topic we can further discuss and come up with ideas to make diving safer in the futurefor all.