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texdiveguy
04-27-2008, 15:39
You just can't have to much dive gear......never have owed a set of Al80 doubles myself but it's funny when your not looking how sometimes things just come together........

2- Luxfer blue matching Al80's (1999 org. hydro/VIP--99% prefect cond.) $100
2- current hydros $33
2- current VIP n/c
1- set 7.25 inch bands/bolts $50
1- Thermo 200 bar isolator manifold $88
____
$271 complete set of doubles--'priceless'

(2 perfect shape Thermo K valves and plastic tank boots left over)
_____

terrillja
04-27-2008, 16:59
Just got myself a pair of faber 108s today, with OMS bands and 200 bar manifold, vis yesterday, and O2 clean, original hydro in 2004, excellent condition.

$500.

I'm quite happy, since the bands, manifold, and O2 cleaning would have cost that much alone.

texdiveguy
04-27-2008, 17:01
Just got myself a pair of faber 108s today, with OMS bands and 200 bar manifold, vis yesterday, and O2 clean, original hydro in 2004, excellent condition.

$500.

I'm quite happy, since the bands, manifold, and O2 cleaning would have cost that much alone.

There you are....a good buy also.

ReefHound
04-27-2008, 17:33
So you're the villain that snagged those tanks from under me.

terrillja
04-27-2008, 17:40
So you're the villain that snagged those tanks from under me.
Which one of us was that directed towards?

texdiveguy
04-27-2008, 17:47
So you're the villain that snagged those tanks from under me.
Which one of us was that directed towards?

'Me'.... I replied to a FS thread a few seconds prior to his reply to the same ad....and had forwarded a PM to the seller....local on the spot purchase for me.

imasinker
04-28-2008, 19:05
Ok double al80's other than weight (bouancy) at the end of the dive, what other reasons would a person chose steel over aluminum for doubles. Is double AL80's any better or worse or is this just a matter of preference?

terrillja
04-28-2008, 19:07
Ok double al80's other than weight (bouancy) at the end of the dive, what other reasons would a person chose steel over aluminum for doubles. Is double AL80's any better or worse or is this just a matter of preference?
Capacity for one. Double 130s hold a ton of gas, and LP cylinders that have been overfilled can hold insane amounts of gas.

cummings66
04-28-2008, 21:42
I saw the posting and figured a local would get them, double AL80's are kind of nice to have. I'm sure you'll enjoy playing with them.

CompuDude
04-28-2008, 22:37
Ok double al80's other than weight (bouancy) at the end of the dive, what other reasons would a person chose steel over aluminum for doubles. Is double AL80's any better or worse or is this just a matter of preference?

How about the amount of weight you have to carry, in exchange for that lower capacity? The tanks themselves weigh a smidge more than LP85s/HP100s, plus you have to carry the extra weight to counteract said buoyancy.

That weight is not much fun if you have to trudge any distance to the water...

Or is that what you meant?

texdiveguy
04-28-2008, 22:45
Ok double al80's other than weight (bouancy) at the end of the dive, what other reasons would a person chose steel over aluminum for doubles. Is double AL80's any better or worse or is this just a matter of preference?

How about the amount of weight you have to carry, in exchange for that lower capacity? The tanks themselves weigh a smidge more than LP85s/HP100s, plus you have to carry the extra weight to counteract said buoyancy.

That weight is not much fun if you have to trudge any distance to the water...

Or is that what you meant?

$271 'priceless' ..... :) ..... little extra weight is not a big deal for a functional set of doubles for recreational sport duty ..... my steel doubles are still the cats meow!

fire diver
04-28-2008, 23:06
I currently (as much a s "current" can be for me) use double Al80's for my rig. Here's why. I already had multiple AL80's sitting around. All I needed was a new set of valves and a manifold, plus a set of rings. It was a cheap way to get into doubles. I also "currently" dive wet. Most doubles divers (who are more knowledgeable and experienced than I) say that steel shouldn't be used when diving wet because you have no secondary lift, and LOTS of weight at the start.

So there are some reasons to dive with double AL80s.

I will be switching to a drysuit when I resume my diving, and buying a new set of steels to go with it, but there's nothing wrong with starting out like I did. Besides, those 2 AL80's will make great deco/stage tanks when I break them apart.

texdiveguy
04-28-2008, 23:23
I also "currently" dive wet. Most doubles divers (who are more knowledgeable and experienced than I) say that steel shouldn't be used when diving wet because you have no secondary lift, and LOTS of weight at the start.



Some good points in your experience and choice in starting with double Al80's.....just one error and that is the miss guided info. that you referred to above. There are many experienced 'doubles' divers using steel doubles and wet suits....it all comes down to a simple precaution of redundant buoyancy since the absence of a dry suit voids that option. I dive steel doubles in a wet suit many times each year---but I always stack a redundant wing as my back-up to my primary wings possible failure. There are other methods less attractive to providing this protection, but diving steel doubles in no way is limited to dry suits diving only. :)

fire diver
04-28-2008, 23:29
You are right. I never meant to say that diving wet meant NO steels. Just that it isn't generally recommended. I am also a rather new-ish doubles divers, so I lean alot on the advice from others for some things, and I tend to err on the side of caution.

But diving is entirely up each diver. We all make our own risk assessments and choices every dive (or we should)

CompuDude
04-28-2008, 23:31
Nothing wrong with dual 80s, it's just that in most situations, steel seems to be the better option. I have a pair of dual 80s upstairs right now... that haven't been wet since I bought my dual 100s. They worked fine to get me started, and I'm glad I had them. And shortly, when I break them down into singles for stages and use their bands and manifolds to set up another pair of dual 100s, I'll be that much happier I had them!

texdiveguy
04-28-2008, 23:41
You are right. I never meant to say that diving wet meant NO steels. Just that it isn't generally recommended. I am also a rather new-ish doubles divers, so I lean alot on the advice from others for some things, and I tend to err on the side of caution.

But diving is entirely up each diver. We all make our own risk assessments and choices every dive (or we should)

I disagree again that it is generally not recommended....possibly just by those whom don't fully understand proper protocols and safe doubles diving practices.....this is just one of those dang 'scuba myths' that goes on and on.

BUT, I understand where you are coming from being new in the area of diving doubles and the internet information trail......and you are 100% correct that we each must set our own risk management scale and always weight on the side of caution--well said! :)

For those folks whom enter the technical side of recreational diving....you will spend a good amount of time studying this very thing---risk assessment, as it can make the difference in a great day or a last day.

There are certain procedures to be applied for diving Al or steel double either wet or dry, there is something for everyone!

captain
04-30-2008, 08:38
It's not just steel doubles it's what steel doubles. If not having "tons" of air isn't an issue the old steel 72's doubled up are great and can be dived wet or even with no exposure protection. I can dive them with just a swim suit and no BC in salt water. Considering AL 80 are actually 77cu ft there is not that much difference between them and steel 72's

Crimediver
04-30-2008, 08:59
I second the steel 72's. Often overlooked as they are oldschool they have great bouyancy characteristics and make a nice compact set of doubles. I dive profiles that are more often limited by depth/ bottom time than air. Steel 72 work great.

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 09:10
My only 1971 Voit steel 72 sees service as a great slung stage bottle and at times as a deco bottle. They are sweet!

Rainer
04-30-2008, 10:53
I disagree again that it is generally not recommended....possibly just by those whom don't fully understand proper protocols and safe doubles diving practices.....


Or those that understand that what punctures one bladder likely punctures both. If you can swim them up, fine (for me it's an issue of balanced rig, not recommendations in the dark), but if you're simply relying on a second wing, I think that's foolish. Knowing people who have punctured both wings while diving wet, and who barely made it back (with help of buddies) is sobering. But hey, I'm sure it could never happen to you...

mike_s
04-30-2008, 11:44
So you're the villain that snagged those tanks from under me.


If he didn't snagg them, then it would have just been Mwhities who did!

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 11:45
I disagree again that it is generally not recommended....possibly just by those whom don't fully understand proper protocols and safe doubles diving practices.....


Or those that understand that what punctures one bladder likely punctures both. If you can swim them up, fine (for me it's an issue of balanced rig, not recommendations in the dark), but if you're simply relying on a second wing, I think that's foolish. Knowing people who have punctured both wings while diving wet, and who barely made it back (with help of buddies) is sobering. But hey, I'm sure it could never happen to you...

I don't dive a dual bladder wing....but a second wing which is protected in its own casing so the chances of losing both is VERY remote. It is also very rare to get a puncture while diving as most wing failures occur prior to the dive as a result of being pinched and damaged, and that can happen to those diving a single bladder set-up--so always do your pre-dive bladder checks. I prefer the redundancy and security of a second wing while diving doubles in a wet suit. *And to clear something up....one thing I am not as a sport and advanced technical diver is 'foolish', so please refrain from your sly comments. I think it is prudent protection to use a second wing for diving doubles while diving wet....it goes hand in hand with other redundant gear and will ensure an arrest into the deep dark, and makes for safe/secure deco obligation stops on the way up.... :)

Rainer
04-30-2008, 12:04
*And to clear something up....one thing I am not as a sport and advanced technical diver is 'foolish', so please refrain from your sly comments.

I differ to your considerable two years of tech diving experience. I'm sure others who have managed to puncture two wings, or have been unable to make use of the second wing in time for whatever reason simply do not have your depth of "advanced technical" experience and knowledge. Thank you.

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 12:22
*And to clear something up....one thing I am not as a sport and advanced technical diver is 'foolish', so please refrain from your sly comments.

I differ to your considerable two years of tech diving experience. I'm sure others who have managed to puncture two wings, or have been unable to make use of the second wing in time for whatever reason simply do not have your depth of "advanced technical" experience and knowledge. Thank you.

We are blessed to know you are here to set things straight for us....its a comfy feeling. And I am sure those that have lost a single wing and tried swimming up from depth with lots of needed heavy gear thought...dang this balanced thing has pit-falls you know. I am speaking from my beliefs/training and persl. experience and observations. As most of us understand things/anything can happen to the least or most experienced divers....we each just have to choice what is in our opinion the best solution for the perceived risk/s. *Rainer I always wish you safe and enjoyable diving, regardless of diving procedural philosophy differences.

Rainer
04-30-2008, 12:27
We are blessed to know you are here to set things straight for us....its a comfy feeling. And I am sure those that have lost a single wing and tried swimming up from depth with lots of needed heavy gear thought...dang this balanced thing has pit-falls you know. I am speaking from my beliefs and persl. experience and observations. As most of us understand things/anything can happen to the least or most experienced divers....we each just have to choice what is in our opinion the best solution for the perceived risk/s.

I tend to value the wisdom of more experienced divers over those with less experience, especially in cases where my direct experience is limited (wing failures).

If I'm in heavy gear, I'm not relying JUST on a single wing, so your example is specious.

Agreed, however, that it's all just a matter of adding up risks versus benefits. We'll all draw different lines. Doesn't mean I won't think your lines foolish, however. Also doesn't mean I care what you do. I'm happy to sit back and shake my head. Bad advice to others, though, is bad advice.

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 12:36
We are blessed to know you are here to set things straight for us....its a comfy feeling. And I am sure those that have lost a single wing and tried swimming up from depth with lots of needed heavy gear thought...dang this balanced thing has pit-falls you know. I am speaking from my beliefs and persl. experience and observations. As most of us understand things/anything can happen to the least or most experienced divers....we each just have to choice what is in our opinion the best solution for the perceived risk/s.

I tend to value the wisdom of more experienced divers over those with less experience, especially in cases where my direct experience is limited (wing failures).

If I'm in heavy gear, I'm not relying on a single wing, so your example is specious.

Agreed, however, that it's all just a matter of adding up risks versus benefits. We'll all draw different lines. Doesn't mean I won't think your lines aren't foolish, however. Also doesn't mean I care what you do. I'm happy to sit back and shake my head. Bad advice to others, though, is bad advice.

In terms of persl. having a wing failure I am VERY inexperienced....never had a real one occur---geeze I hope my experience in diving and gear selection for the job at hand and gear care keep me from that situation!!!!

As to my advise being incorrect or bad that is just BS.

Thanks for all your wisdom and insights.....I am sure we all have 'learned' something.

Safe and incident free diving always!!!! :)

Rainer
04-30-2008, 12:39
We are blessed to know you are here to set things straight for us....its a comfy feeling. And I am sure those that have lost a single wing and tried swimming up from depth with lots of needed heavy gear thought...dang this balanced thing has pit-falls you know. I am speaking from my beliefs and persl. experience and observations. As most of us understand things/anything can happen to the least or most experienced divers....we each just have to choice what is in our opinion the best solution for the perceived risk/s.

I tend to value the wisdom of more experienced divers over those with less experience, especially in cases where my direct experience is limited (wing failures).

If I'm in heavy gear, I'm not relying on a single wing, so your example is specious.

Agreed, however, that it's all just a matter of adding up risks versus benefits. We'll all draw different lines. Doesn't mean I won't think your lines aren't foolish, however. Also doesn't mean I care what you do. I'm happy to sit back and shake my head. Bad advice to others, though, is bad advice.

In terms of persl. having a wing failure I am VERY inexperienced....never had a real one occur---geeze I hope my experience in diving and gear selection for the job at hand and gear care keep me from that situation!!!!

As to my advise being incorrect or bad that is just BS.

Thanks for all your wisdom and insights.....I am sure we all have 'learned' something.

Safe and incident free diving always!!!! :)

If your advice is to dive heavy gear wet with only two wings as redundant buoyancy, then it is bad advice. This is not based on my wisdom or insights, it's based on those of divers with much more experience than you or I. Your hubris to ignore it is your choice. Recommending against it is vain.

Enjoy your dives.

cummings66
04-30-2008, 12:48
Maybe I've missed something, but I've not seen where texdiveguy has said he has 2 years dive experience. I see it in your postings only.

However, which is better? Two years constant diving or 10 years doing 2 dives a year? Who has more experience?

Experience is much more than a number on a piece of paper. I value the opinion of a diver who dives.

That said, if the choice were to use a wetsuit and steel doubles and a single wing, or two wings? Which is better, if you're going to do it no matter what? Assuming you've got your lift bag anyhow? The advice is one way to do something. It's kind of like this, if you're dead set on using a wetsuit then perhaps it's a better way to do it rather than just going it without any form of backup?

It's not for everybody, but then I don't think it was meant that way.

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 12:49
We are blessed to know you are here to set things straight for us....its a comfy feeling. And I am sure those that have lost a single wing and tried swimming up from depth with lots of needed heavy gear thought...dang this balanced thing has pit-falls you know. I am speaking from my beliefs and persl. experience and observations. As most of us understand things/anything can happen to the least or most experienced divers....we each just have to choice what is in our opinion the best solution for the perceived risk/s.

I tend to value the wisdom of more experienced divers over those with less experience, especially in cases where my direct experience is limited (wing failures).

If I'm in heavy gear, I'm not relying on a single wing, so your example is specious.

Agreed, however, that it's all just a matter of adding up risks versus benefits. We'll all draw different lines. Doesn't mean I won't think your lines aren't foolish, however. Also doesn't mean I care what you do. I'm happy to sit back and shake my head. Bad advice to others, though, is bad advice.

In terms of persl. having a wing failure I am VERY inexperienced....never had a real one occur---geeze I hope my experience in diving and gear selection for the job at hand and gear care keep me from that situation!!!!

As to my advise being incorrect or bad that is just BS.

Thanks for all your wisdom and insights.....I am sure we all have 'learned' something.

Safe and incident free diving always!!!! :)

If your advice is to dive heavy gear wet with only two wings as redundant buoyancy, then it is bad advice. This is not based on my wisdom or insights, it's based on those of divers with much more experience than you or I. Your hubris to ignore it is your choice. Recommending against it is vain.

Enjoy your dives.

I always include other options in my dive kit....just as you stated you do.....so we agree there and that is important--yippy. I respect advise from all divers....I don't just put all my eggs in the basket of those divers with 'all' that experience---they have and will make mistakes too. I am open to ideas and suggestions....that is just smart...I am flexible to chance when it has merit.

Rainer thanks for your views and input--serious....it is these exchanges that lead us all to discover options and what in the end is best for us as individual divers....keep up the dives dude.

Rainer
04-30-2008, 13:19
I think we all agree it's just an issue of adding up risks and considering alternatives. Is a wetsuit the best choice for technical dives? Even in warmer waters, with extended exposures, most will want a dry suit. Does that mean every dive in doubles must be done dry? Of course not. I'd be happy to wear doubles with my 3mm. But I would not bring steels. And I would bring a lift bag (or two). And I would not do the dive solo. And I probably wouldn't do it over a wall. I'd be happy enough with those risks. Others feel differently (for some, that's too aggressive, for others, too cautious).

Steel doubles with ONLY two wings for redundancy strikes ME as unwise GIVEN a few stories from very experienced divers who found such rigs to be far from optimal when the SHTF. Their stories are more powerful to me than those who haven't experienced problems, or even those who came through with no issues.

Rainer
04-30-2008, 13:25
Two other points:

(1) If the water is cold and you need a thicker wetsuit (e.g. 7mm) I'd personally stay away from doubles in OW at greater depths. The combination of suit compression and the need for a large weight belt scare me, especially when the bottom could be a long ways down.

(2) AL80s are a decent rig for warm water diving, and are light enough to be warn with a wetsuit. If you need more gas, you'd be better served with a near neutral AL stage (that's always ditchable) than big steels.

WD8CDH
04-30-2008, 15:57
My opinion is take the weight that you need to be neutral without tanks. Then add up how many pounds negative the tanks that you want are when about 1/2 full. If the pounds negative of the tanks is greater than the weight on your weight belt (or other ditchable weight), it's a risky gear combination whether the tanks are steel, aluminum or unobtanium..

in_cavediver
04-30-2008, 20:46
Such heated debates....

First, I have both steel and al doubles and have been diving them for the last 6 years. I'll take them deep or deep in a cave or both.

I usually dive dry but if I had to dive wet, I'd double the wing if possible and go from there. As for how important this is - well, it depends where I dive. Some places are more forgiving than others. If I had a reasonable hard bottom, I'd worry far less than if the bottom was a long way down. I'd worry even less if walking out was an option (been there in a few quarries).

Its all risk management and for some cases, LP130's in a wetsuit with a single wing is just fine. Others, may take a lot more equipment. Each diver has to look at the options and solutions and see what meets thier risk envelope. What appears to be foolish to one is perfectly acceptable to another. Its no reason to berate anyone.

Now good stories for doing foolish things - I have met and dove with many who can give good ones, some they were lucky to survive others were just the 'well duh' learning moments. Top of the list is whether to fight a 4ft alligator for a good deco spot at 20ft (the answer is no BTW).