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ianr33
04-29-2008, 15:29
Simple Question !

No Misses
04-29-2008, 15:49
Are you trolling?

Global Underwater Explorers | Global Underwater Explorers (http://www.gue.com/)

CompuDude
04-29-2008, 15:56
Technically, a "DIR diver" is someone trained by GUE who fully complies with the three main tenets of the DIR philosophy of education, experience and equipment.

ScubaBoard has a decent writeup in the sticky (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/44823-what-dir.html) at the top of their DIR forum.

For the record, though, the term "DIR" is officially deprecated and GUE is trying to move away from it due to the negative implications that offend people. It's a generic term that has developed a life of it's own, though, so it's hard to stop using it entirely.

mike_s
04-29-2008, 16:01
Simple Question !


nothing simple about this question.... :smilie40:

CompuDude
04-29-2008, 16:02
Simple Question !


nothing simple about this question.... :smilie40:

Sure there is. I already answered it. :smiley2:

mike_s
04-29-2008, 16:17
Simple Question !


nothing simple about this question.... :smilie40:

Sure there is. I already answered it. :smiley2:


actually I thought your answer was a very well worded one.:smiley20:


(but our 'reply' clicks overlapped a little and I didn't know you had posted by the time I hit reply).

ianr33
04-29-2008, 18:41
Are you trolling?

Global Underwater Explorers | Global Underwater Explorers (http://www.gue.com/)

No,not trolling. I think its an interesting question,though maybe not a simple one!

Many divers seem to think that anybody with a long hose is a DIR diver,well,they might be but then again they might not.

Are you a DIR diver if you have done Fundies?

Are you a DIR diver if you follow all their guidelines,have never done a GUE course but are trimix certified by TDI ?

Are you a DIR diver if you are Tech 2 certified but go to Bikini and dive air at 180 feet ?

What is a "DIR diver" ?

frogman159
04-29-2008, 19:12
Are you trolling?

Global Underwater Explorers | Global Underwater Explorers (http://www.gue.com/)

No,not trolling. I think its an interesting question,though maybe not a simple one!

Many divers seem to think that anybody with a long hose is a DIR diver,well,they might be but then again they might not.

Are you a DIR diver if you have done Fundies?

Are you a DIR diver if you follow all their guidelines,have never done a GUE course but are trimix certified by TDI ?

Are you a DIR diver if you are Tech 2 certified but go to Bikini and dive air at 180 feet ?

What is a "DIR diver" ?

:smilie40::smilie40::smilie40:

cummings66
04-29-2008, 19:23
I answered the exact same question the same way a while back, got handed my A?? over it. Apparently most users here feel differently, including some of the DIR divers.

cummings66
04-29-2008, 19:25
ianr33 is trolling IMO. He knows the answers to his questions, you can tell by the questions being asked. He asked them in a way that tells you he clearly knows. Therefore, he's trolling. He knows the answer, he knows it will stir the waters. He's trolling.

The question is, why?

Sounder
04-29-2008, 20:05
I saw this thread title and cringed. CompuDude answered the question and this thread doesn't need to go on any further. The only thing that could be added to what he wrote is people's attitudes toward the subject... and that's a never ending subject that should just plain be avoided.

CompuDude
04-29-2008, 20:26
Are you trolling?

Global Underwater Explorers | Global Underwater Explorers (http://www.gue.com/)

No,not trolling. I think its an interesting question,though maybe not a simple one!

Many divers seem to think that anybody with a long hose is a DIR diver,well,they might be but then again they might not.

Are you a DIR diver if you have done Fundies?

Are you a DIR diver if you follow all their guidelines,have never done a GUE course but are trimix certified by TDI ?

Are you a DIR diver if you are Tech 2 certified but go to Bikini and dive air at 180 feet ?

What is a "DIR diver" ?

See my answer above.

And technically, the answer to your second question here (DIR if Fundies) is "maybe", and the answer to all others, when viewed with a strict interpretation, is "No", since each case fails the main criteria set forth in my initial answer to your question.

-CD
(still playing along for who knows what reason)

texdiveguy
04-29-2008, 21:16
Simple Question !

What is your take on your own question?

wolfen42
04-29-2008, 21:35
http://www.lockedinsteel.com/CMSImages/SpikeHarnessLarge.jpg


Sorry... the question just reminded me of someone over at thedecostop who has a similar avatar... with DIR written across it. :)

RoyN
04-29-2008, 21:35
Thats not what DIR means.

DIR means "doing it Roy's" way! :D

Now do it MY WAY!!!

fire diver
04-29-2008, 22:38
http://www.lockedinsteel.com/CMSImages/SpikeHarnessLarge.jpg


Sorry... the question just reminded me of someone over at thedecostop who has a similar avatar... with DIR written across it. :)

Where'd you find that pick of GI3?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I too feel this is bordering trolling at the best. I know I'm not DIR, but I like a lot of thier concepts.

wolfen42
04-30-2008, 05:49
Where'd you find that pick of GI3?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I too feel this is bordering trolling at the best. I know I'm not DIR, but I like a lot of thier concepts.

Yeah, if anyone is truly offended I'd be happy to pull my link to the picture, but it really was intended as a lighthearted post :)

mm_dm
04-30-2008, 07:33
I saw this thread title and cringed. CompuDude answered the question and this thread doesn't need to go on any further. The only thing that could be added to what he wrote is people's attitudes toward the subject... and that's a never ending subject that should just plain be avoided.


Amen! Nothing good is going to come out of taking this any further.

ianr33
04-30-2008, 08:20
Simple Question !

What is your take on your own question?

To me it would be somebody who walks the walk. Tech/Cave trained,uses Standard Mixes and wont bend very far from that,familiar with Ratio Deco and so on. All the normal gear (BP/Wings,long hose,no D ring on right hip etc)

There seems to be a tendency for many to look at someone wearing Jetfins,long hose , BP/Wings and call them a DIR Diver.Well,they might be but most likely aren't and you can not tell just by looking.

I dont think that Scubatoys helps by having a section for "DIR and Tech "
Something like this:
OMS Remote Valve Knob Assembly, DIR and Technical, OMS, OMS Remote Valve Knob Assembly (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=OMS_Remote_Valve_Knob_Assemb ly)
Might be "technical" to some people but sure as heck aint DIR.

I look like a DIR diver,would probably be called DIR by some but I am not.Never could go along with that END< 100 thing.

Anyway,apologies if I annoyed anyone with this thread.

mwhities
04-30-2008, 09:06
Simple Question !

What is your take on your own question?

To me it would be somebody who walks the walk. Tech/Cave trained,uses Standard Mixes and wont bend very far from that,familiar with Ratio Deco and so on. All the normal gear (BP/Wings,long hose,no D ring on right hip etc)

There seems to be a tendency for many to look at someone wearing Jetfins,long hose , BP/Wings and call them a DIR Diver.Well,they might be but most likely aren't and you can not tell just by looking.

I dont think that Scubatoys helps by having a section for "DIR and Tech "
Something like this:
OMS Remote Valve Knob Assembly, DIR and Technical, OMS, OMS Remote Valve Knob Assembly (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=OMS_Remote_Valve_Knob_Assemb ly)
Might be "technical" to some people but sure as heck aint DIR.

I look like a DIR diver,would probably be called DIR by some but I am not.Never could go along with that END< 100 thing.

Anyway,apologies if I annoyed anyone with this thread.

I don't consider myself DIR but, a lot of people do. AND when I get my doubles, I already have the Remote Valve Knob ready for it. :)

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 09:12
I will volunteer for the 'poster person' for the Non-DIR diver!!! :)

h2odragon1
04-30-2008, 09:15
DIR-- DO IT RIGHT? Too often it means a self-righteous diver, letting you know you are wrong since you are not diong it his way. The DIR movement was created from the expierences of divers and seeing how poor, or dangerous some people were diving, and trying to teach how to keep things streamlined and safe for divers. Some DIR fail to see, or learn new ways to improve their own diving and gear set-up.
In many ways, it should refer to one's willingness to learn, to improve.

Rainer
04-30-2008, 10:45
DIR-- DO IT RIGHT? Too often it means a self-righteous diver, letting you know you are wrong since you are not diong it his way. The DIR movement was created from the expierences of divers and seeing how poor, or dangerous some people were diving, and trying to teach how to keep things streamlined and safe for divers. Some DIR fail to see, or learn new ways to improve their own diving and gear set-up.
In many ways, it should refer to one's willingness to learn, to improve.

Thank you for such an insightful post.

mike_s
04-30-2008, 10:52
I will volunteer for the 'poster person' for the Non-DIR diver!!! :)


Is this you?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/mikes2006/misc_images/funny/dive-gear-junkie.jpg

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 11:30
I will volunteer for the 'poster person' for the Non-DIR diver!!! :)


Is this you?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/mikes2006/misc_images/funny/dive-gear-junkie.jpg

LOL!!!

Foo2
04-30-2008, 11:39
I will volunteer for the 'poster person' for the Non-DIR diver!!! :)


Is this you?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/mikes2006/misc_images/funny/dive-gear-junkie.jpg

:smilie39: That's the funniest thing I've seen all day!:smilie39: Thanks for sharing!

LiteHedded
04-30-2008, 11:48
now that's a streamlined rig!

mwhities
04-30-2008, 11:54
now that's a streamlined rig!

Stream LINED with hoses.. :)

cummings66
04-30-2008, 12:33
That dude should be just about ready to pass out. Heat, weight, embarrassment, etc. Funny though.

Sounder
04-30-2008, 12:35
:bonk:

elijahb
04-30-2008, 13:28
A DIR diver is a do it right diver.
It is a different system of connecting regulators and hoses. They also have different equipment protocols and training protocols. Basically it is just a different way of training divers and connecting equipment

MSilvia
04-30-2008, 16:07
A DIR diver is a do it right diver.
It is a different system of connecting regulators and hoses. They also have different equipment protocols and training protocols. Basically it is just a different way of training divers and connecting equipment
Despite what you may have read online, equipment configuration is only a small part of what DIR diving is about, and although GUE has it's own training system, DIR isn't really about that either. Essentially, it's a holistic system drawing on the best practices of seasoned cave exploration divers. While it aims to provide divers with a means of safely executing extremely demanding dives, there are many recreational divers who have also embraced the system and feel it adds a great deal to their recreational diving.

It does make specific recommendations about equipment configuration, but this is no more important to the system than it's emphasis on skills, team diving protocols, and dive planning. The gear requirements are designed with an eye toward both standardizing equipment used by divers on a team, and achieving the Hogarthian ideal of eliminating unnecessary gear and optimizing the configuration of necessary gear so as to maximize streamlining and minimize potential risks of gear failure. There's a lot more to it than how you connect your hoses.

mwhities
04-30-2008, 16:33
MSilvia,

Great description. I think it covers pretty much what DIR is.

If you still wonder, do a search for "dir" or "doing it right" on Google (http://www.google.com) and come to your own conclusion. Take or leave it for what it's worth to you. No need to bash "dir" or "stroke" divers. Each person dives the way they feel comfortable. If you come across either that are arrogant or rude, get used to it. Both diving styles (and others) will always have a few bad apples. Don't hold a gruge against a whole diving style because of one person.

Michael

Gombessa
04-30-2008, 17:05
OK, I'll bite. It's a slow day :)

When you say GUE has deprecated the term DIR, it could mean a couple of things. First, it could mean that the organization disfavors its use, and is no longer referring to its training as descriptively DIR. Second, it could imply that they control what DIR is, and because of that they can say that DIR no longer exists as a term. Any organization anywhere can do the first, but I really don't think GUE can realistically do the latter. DIR has been around long before GUE, and was coined and popularized by people not representing GUE. GUE can't stop anyone from teaching "DIR" diving or calling themselves DIR divers, or diving in a DIR manner. As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't have copyright, trademark or other IP rights to the DIR term, either.

This is all to say that it can't be accurate to say that a DIR diver is "trained by GUE." DIR is a principle, and if you dive in manner consistent with that principle, you're "doing it right," so to speak. that's a different issue altogether. It's of course fair to say that a GUE diver must be trained by GUE, and GUE divers don't call themselves or anybody else DIR, but that's obviously a different issue.

Gombessa
04-30-2008, 17:08
Don't hold a gruge against a whole diving style because of one person.

Hey, what's Trey ever done to you? :smiley36:

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 17:13
Since most divers are not 'DIR' divers in purity, than those few that are should be pretty easy to spot. :)

CompuDude
04-30-2008, 17:43
OK, I'll bite. It's a slow day :)

When you say GUE has deprecated the term DIR, it could mean a couple of things. First, it could mean that the organization disfavors its use, and is no longer referring to its training as descriptively DIR. Second, it could imply that they control what DIR is, and because of that they can say that DIR no longer exists as a term. Any organization anywhere can do the first, but I really don't think GUE can realistically do the latter. DIR has been around long before GUE, and was coined and popularized by people not representing GUE. GUE can't stop anyone from teaching "DIR" diving or calling themselves DIR divers, or diving in a DIR manner. As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't have copyright, trademark or other IP rights to the DIR term, either.

This is all to say that it can't be accurate to say that a DIR diver is "trained by GUE." DIR is a principle, and if you dive in manner consistent with that principle, you're "doing it right," so to speak. that's a different issue altogether. It's of course fair to say that a GUE diver must be trained by GUE, and GUE divers don't call themselves or anybody else DIR, but that's obviously a different issue.

No, they don't have any sort of legal protection on the term (that I'm aware of). But it was either JJ or GI3 who coined the term "DIR", AFAIK, so I think you have a few of your facts incorrect. The Hogarthian gear rig used by DIR divers has been around long before the term DIR came about, but I'm pretty sure that the founders of GUE are the ones who coined the term.

It's not copyrighted, however, and even if it was there's no way they can force people to start using the term.

When I stated that "GUE has deprecated the term DIR", however, I meant just that. The GUE organization, which is the defining organization behind the original "DIR" movement (no matter what meaning that term has evolved to mean), no longer wants it's instructors and members to use that term. What GUE "wants" of course, is different from what happens in the real world, and the term continues to be used in ways never intended (let alone blessed) by it's originators.

Gombessa
04-30-2008, 17:58
But it was either JJ or GI3 who coined the term "DIR", AFAIK, so I think you have a few of your facts incorrect.

I think it was GI3 who first coined it, and I actually looked on the GUE site, and didn't see Trey on there. If he's a member of the board or management, that's fine, but either way the term DIR and the philosophy behind it predates GUE.


When I stated that "GUE has deprecated the term DIR", however, I meant just that. The GUE organization, which is the defining organization behind the original "DIR" movement (no matter what meaning that term has evolved to mean), no longer wants it's instructors and members to use that term. What GUE "wants" of course, is different from what happens in the real world, and the term continues to be used in ways never intended (let alone blessed) by it's originators.

I have no qualms with any of the above. I also think that GUE pretty much has de facto, if not de jure power over what is or isn't DIR (3 C-cell batteries in a backup light? SOMEBODY'S gotta update that stuff, right?). But by your own answer, the original answer to "What is a DIR Diver" simply CANNOT be limited to divers trained by GUE. By that account, a lot of the original people who were DIR diving and GUE simply cannot be DIR divers (those who were diving DIR long before GUE came about, learned via mentoring while in the WKPP, etc.). Also, AG is no longer with GUE, but still teaches DIR diving (and is probably one of the best out there). The answer is just underinclusive.

RoyN
04-30-2008, 18:20
Isn't DIR is more of the dive buddy system?

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 18:38
Isn't DIR is more of the dive buddy system?

If you are a DIR purist you have to have that buddy or no diving.

RoyN
04-30-2008, 20:49
If you are a DIR purist you have to have that buddy or no diving.

:crazy:

terrillja
04-30-2008, 20:53
If you are a DIR purist you have to have that buddy or no diving.
I understand why, but it seems a bit playgroundish- If you aren't part of my club I can't talk with you...

Or like a cult?


Whatever makes people happy. I personally like meeting new people, met Fishii through there and we went diving last weekend. He froze and my computer died but other than that, it was a good time :)

in_cavediver
04-30-2008, 21:04
Oh come one, we all know the DIR concept was raised just to piss off other people. You know, the single best SH&T stirring stick there is on the internet for diving! It even beats the PADI bashing and Mask On Forward threads.

Reality is that DIR is just a set of procedures/protocols that came from the WKPP projects and was used to form a training agency. High standards, small scale and all that good stuff to ensure the quality of training is uniform and high.

It is by no means the only way to safely do advanced dives and its by no means the primary way cave exploration is done either. An awful lot of that is still done by the old school NSS-CDS/NACD divers. Technical Wreck diving is the same way. Ask some die hard NE wreck divers about it and I'm sure you'll get an ear full.

I'm not DIR and never will be. My philosophies don't fit with their's to the level they require. (Solo/CCR/END's). If you are DIR - great, have fun and dive safe. I plan to do the same.

frogman159
04-30-2008, 21:23
If you are a DIR purist you have to have that buddy or no diving.

:crazy:

Actually if I read correctly, not only do you have to have a buddy, but he/she also needs to be pure DIR diver as well. They're not supposed to dive with non-DIR divers as buddies- I guess its too unsafe

RoyN
04-30-2008, 21:42
Actually if I read correctly, not only do you have to have a buddy, but he/she also needs to be pure DIR diver as well. They're not supposed to dive with non-DIR divers as buddies- I guess its too unsafe

Well, sorry if I offend anybody with that barf smile, thats just for fun between THG and me. :smiley36:

Anyways, I'm not sure if this is really GUE or just some guy making his rule, but everybody should read rule number 4.
DIR Part 2 (http://www.sfdj.com/fall/beyond2.html)

As for their gear configuration, I don't know if it was started by GUE or was by tech divers before GUE adopted it.

But in truth, I've dove with a GUE diver name Harry Wong (Docwong on scubaboard) and he is a wonderful man. He is more lazy on the rule and puts fun in diving rather then drill.

As for buddying up, we pretty much just hang around for fun underwater and when I dive alone from the boat, I use a reel to go back to the anchor.

Gombessa
04-30-2008, 21:48
Actually if I read correctly, not only do you have to have a buddy, but he/she also needs to be pure DIR diver as well. They're not supposed to dive with non-DIR divers as buddies- I guess its too unsafe

I think the rule is that you're not supposed to dive with "people with unsafe attitudes;" it has nothing to do with how DIR they are. I know a number of DIR divers, ALL (as in 100%) of whom will dive with anyone so long as they're rational, thinking people who appreciate the concept of safety. My very first dive out of a 2-day PADI OW resort course without pool sessions was with a DIR diver, and he didn't care at all where I was certified.

I can fully understand WKPP divers not willing to go on deep exploration dives with non-DIR divers, but there's an obvious difference there.

Rainer
04-30-2008, 22:28
Actually if I read correctly, not only do you have to have a buddy, but he/she also needs to be pure DIR diver as well. They're not supposed to dive with non-DIR divers as buddies- I guess its too unsafe

I think the rule is that you're not supposed to dive with "people with unsafe attitudes;" it has nothing to do with how DIR they are. I know a number of DIR divers, ALL (as in 100%) of whom will dive with anyone so long as they're rational, thinking people who appreciate the concept of safety. My very first dive out of a 2-day PADI OW resort course without pool sessions was with a DIR diver, and he didn't care at all where I was certified.

I can fully understand WKPP divers not willing to go on deep exploration dives with non-DIR divers, but there's an obvious difference there.

Your experience has been my experience.

texdiveguy
04-30-2008, 23:29
To much gets made of this DIR/GUE stuff for my tastes and I am sure I am not alone in this.

I am sure that the previous and current GUE programs are good (they are not popular in my area in general), they probably offer student divers a format of education that produces safe divers. But on the same token so does the often bashed PADI, they offer great recreational based training courses. I persl. think TDI offers some of the best technical training programs out there today....so we each have our own favorites that is what making the world go-around. I know only a few 'DIR' purist (not GUE trained), and on occasion we all dive and no real big deal comes of it.

I am not a DIR diver by my own choice, but if someone feels this is what they require in diving that is fine with me also.

Having fun and being safe is what is at the core of recreational weekend/sport and technical diving, at least for me it is!

Rainer
04-30-2008, 23:35
So you've done no GUE training, but feel that it's "probably like the other agencies based on no personal experience at all"? I've taken plenty of classes with PADI and NAUI, and have buddies that have done some training with TDI. Sorry, but the GUE classes were all significantly better than the training we received elsewhere.

That said, OF COURSE you'll find good instructors teaching for all agencies. If you want to limit your shot in the dark chance of finding one, however, I assure you, GUE is your best bet. To think other agencies have as high a standard as GUE is simply deluding yourself.

I think most "tech" divers who come to GUE are seeking something more than what they received elsewhere. New divers coming to GUE are usually those who are pretty conservative. I assume both groups come to increase their fun through improved feelings of comfort and safety.

Rainer
04-30-2008, 23:38
Having fun and being safe is what is at the core of recreational weekend/sport and technical diving, at least for me it is!

Agreed.

texdiveguy
05-01-2008, 00:09
Having fun and being safe is what is at the core of recreational weekend/sport and technical diving, at least for me it is!

Agreed.

As Martha would say....'this is a good thing'!!

texdiveguy
05-01-2008, 00:48
Talk about fulfilling the stereotype.:smiley32:

Ryan.... thanks for the support and kind words....... though I admit that I am not pro DIR and have expressed that point in defense of my own insights into scuba diving and what it takes to be well rounded in this fun sport---I don't dance the DIR two step. I do not ask that anyone give .02 to my opinions or thoughts on various dive topics....I just expect folks to be civil and mature like yourself Ryan and 98% of the other board members here. We all have differing views and ideas....we all make errors in life and learn by them (learn by experience), I hope we are open and respectful of others thoughts whether we agree or not and don't become hateful or degrading in our exchanges.

in_cavediver
05-01-2008, 06:03
Some people here sure do have a few chips on their shoulder and like to laud experience. I'll be blunt and open with mine - Cave in 2002 with NACD, Trimix in 2002/2003 (new years weekend) with IANTD plus all of the prereq classes.

I don't like GUE/DIR stance on a few things. I see no problem with Solo diving. I see no problem with CCR's. I also really like my VR3 in caves. I dive with many accomplished divers who share my views. These are divers that DO exploration. Heck, there names are on many of the popular maps as survey team members.

As I said, GUE is nice and all, a real product of the WKPP. It is NOT the best instruction out there and NOT the only way to dive. The best is very depedent on the diving you plan to do. NJ wreck diving - I'd take a class with top NJ wreck divers. Caves - GUE is good but not if you want to learn specialty stuff like sidemount. To take such a myopic view about GUE et al like that simply shows your ignorance.

Now, go dive, have fun. This topic isn't worth headaches

MSilvia
05-01-2008, 08:50
As I said, GUE is nice and all, a real product of the WKPP. It is NOT the best instruction out there and NOT the only way to dive. The best is very depedent on the diving you plan to do. NJ wreck diving - I'd take a class with top NJ wreck divers. Caves - GUE is good but not if you want to learn specialty stuff like sidemount. To take such a myopic view about GUE et al like that simply shows your ignorance.
Well said. There is a lot of excellent instruction out there that isn't GUE. It need not be "a shot in the dark" if you do your research, find out who (and where) the good teachers are, and learn from them.

texdiveguy
05-01-2008, 09:06
As I said, GUE is nice and all, a real product of the WKPP. It is NOT the best instruction out there and NOT the only way to dive. The best is very depedent on the diving you plan to do. NJ wreck diving - I'd take a class with top NJ wreck divers. Caves - GUE is good but not if you want to learn specialty stuff like sidemount. To take such a myopic view about GUE et al like that simply shows your ignorance.
Well said. There is a lot of excellent instruction out there that isn't GUE. It need not be "a shot in the dark" if you do your research, find out who (and where) the good teachers are, and learn from them.

Well put, a breath of fresh air! :)

RoyN
05-01-2008, 12:08
As I said, GUE is nice and all, a real product of the WKPP. It is NOT the best instruction out there and NOT the only way to dive. The best is very depedent on the diving you plan to do. NJ wreck diving - I'd take a class with top NJ wreck divers. Caves - GUE is good but not if you want to learn specialty stuff like sidemount. To take such a myopic view about GUE et al like that simply shows your ignorance.
Well said. There is a lot of excellent instruction out there that isn't GUE. It need not be "a shot in the dark" if you do your research, find out who (and where) the good teachers are, and learn from them.

Well put, a breath of fresh air! :)

Me too!

My parents aren't gue divers and yet, they are great divers, teachers, parents, and cook. ;)

Anyways, I think this thread is getting a little heated up so I'll just have some popcorn. :smilie40:

Murloc
05-01-2008, 14:38
DIR, as with anything have proponents and those that disagree...and then there the zealots

I'm not gonna argue the strengths or weaknesses of DIR as there are others more qualified to do so.....but anything taken to an extreme is not good for the sport as those on the outside view us with the same brush stroke regardless if that picture is of someone who "wrote the book on diving" or someone who borrowed their brothers gear and dove untrained into a cave and died

my fear is that while the proponents of DIR have valid arguements for a particular method of diving, it's the zealots who may endanger the fun and recreational aspect of diving. and for the sake of this arguement I will suggest even someone doing a "serious" tech dive is also enjoying it in a "recreational" aspect.

imagine if you will, someone in the position to actually invoke regulations involving diving at a certain dive area. and let's say that person listens to a group of DIR proponents who advise a criteria for divers at that dive area, to which the person in charge agrees and initiates those recommendations.
now everyone who wishes to dive that spot must be DIR or no diving. even if you agree with DIR methods, do you still wish for the decision of which gear you use be dictated by the dive or by someone who may not even dive themselves?

think it can't happen?...how many places do you know of where divers frequent that are privately owned? all it would take is the owner saying "for now on all divers here must have 7' hoses" or "no solo diving"...or how about "no scooters". see where I'm going with this? Ginnie Springs is privately owned for example.

my point here is rather then the diving community policing ourselves, I fear a group of "zealots" advancing their agenda and before you know it the whole sport is regulated by an outside body based upon a way of doing things that may not be the best way.

you may or not agree with DIR, but at least allow other divers to determine their style of diving

CompuDude
05-01-2008, 16:08
Actually if I read correctly, not only do you have to have a buddy, but he/she also needs to be pure DIR diver as well. They're not supposed to dive with non-DIR divers as buddies- I guess its too unsafe

I think the rule is that you're not supposed to dive with "people with unsafe attitudes;" it has nothing to do with how DIR they are. I know a number of DIR divers, ALL (as in 100%) of whom will dive with anyone so long as they're rational, thinking people who appreciate the concept of safety. My very first dive out of a 2-day PADI OW resort course without pool sessions was with a DIR diver, and he didn't care at all where I was certified.

I can fully understand WKPP divers not willing to go on deep exploration dives with non-DIR divers, but there's an obvious difference there.

Agreed.

And I'll dive with anyone... although if they're genuinely in the realm of "unsafe", I may or may not, with the possible exception of a training situation with an instructor present.

That said, depending on the specific dive, and what is needed to safely do the dive, I might insist on a higher level of training, and that higher level may or may not include GUE training.

Sounder
05-01-2008, 16:34
While this IS one of the more productive DIR discussions I've ever read, does anyone think it's time to put it to bed? Nothing is being said here that hasn't been said a hundred times elsewhere and these kind of threads can degenerate into piss and vinegar in a second... and we don't want that.
:Trykk:

cummings66
05-01-2008, 17:47
Maybe they've been said elsewhere, and they have. I've seen it in many places, but has it been covered in depth here?

Many of the users here are first time people who have not been around long enough to see it elsewhere. For the most part it's not been too bad, a few snipes here and there but no blood has been drawn as far as I can tell.

in_cavediver
05-01-2008, 18:53
As I said, GUE is nice and all, a real product of the WKPP. It is NOT the best instruction out there and NOT the only way to dive. The best is very depedent on the diving you plan to do. NJ wreck diving - I'd take a class with top NJ wreck divers. Caves - GUE is good but not if you want to learn specialty stuff like sidemount. To take such a myopic view about GUE et al like that simply shows your ignorance.
Well said. There is a lot of excellent instruction out there that isn't GUE. It need not be "a shot in the dark" if you do your research, find out who (and where) the good teachers are, and learn from them.

I agree wholeheartedly, even for GUE instructors. A little thought about aspect by some is personality. You have to have compatible personalities before you can have effective learning. This transcends all agencies and goes beyond dive instruction as well. Another reason to research ALL of you dive instructors.

LiteHedded
05-05-2008, 08:12
how many people in this thread have taken gue training?
any classes beyond fundies?

MSilvia
05-05-2008, 12:22
how many people in this thread have taken gue training?
any classes beyond fundies?
I took fundies, got a provisional pass, and haven't chosen to pursue additional GUE training, although several of my dive buddies have. I have, however, subscribed to QUEST, so I've read a lot of discourse among DIR divers, and I've moderated more than a few discussions involving DIR divers at The Deco Stop.

For a non-DIR diver, I like to think I'm well enough informed to give an honest answer to simple questions about DIR in general, if not about specific advanced procedures. I'm certainly not an authority though.

texdiveguy
05-05-2008, 12:28
I use GUE's Deco Planner software, does that count-- :)

LiteHedded
05-05-2008, 12:53
how many people in this thread have taken gue training?
any classes beyond fundies?
I took fundies, got a provisional pass, and haven't chosen to pursue additional GUE training, although several of my dive buddies have. I have, however, subscribed to QUEST, so I've read a lot of discourse among DIR divers, and I've moderated more than a few discussions involving DIR divers at The Deco Stop.

For a non-DIR diver, I like to think I'm well enough informed to give an honest answer to simple questions about DIR in general, if not about specific advanced procedures. I'm certainly not an authority though.
i didn't mean to insinuate anything
just curious :P

RoyN
05-05-2008, 13:20
Just a private lesson in gear configuration as everybody in my area knows I'm a single solo diver throughout my whole entire dive. I usually just reel myself back to the anchor or go circle around a large pinnacle.

CompuDude
05-05-2008, 16:20
Fundies, tech pass.

Further training will likely be AG rather than GUE.

cummings66
05-05-2008, 16:28
I never saw the tech pass report from you, congratulations. Me, no GUE instruction but I have read their books.

in_cavediver
05-05-2008, 17:08
how many people in this thread have taken gue training?
any classes beyond fundies?

GUE came into its own after I'd gone a ways down the tec path. At this point, I don't see any point in taking classes to learn to do dives I have been doing for several years. I'd rather go dive with folks and use a mentor type process with more expierenced divers to evolve my diving now. I have only a few more formal classes I am interested in. Sidemount Cave and CCR. Niether are offered by GUE.

That said, I have met and talked with JJ a few time while in North Florida. Nice guy and his GUE cave class sounded an awful lot like my NACD cave class. I got to see different parts of Cave 1 without actually auditing it. The predive briefs, in-water S-drill, some of the cave skills as well as the post dive briefs. Again, it was awful close to the NACD class I had. The students even made some of the same mistakes we did in class. Buoyancy and trim was pretty much the same as well.

Gombessa
05-05-2008, 18:23
Buoyancy and trim was pretty much the same as well.

Once you're at the level of Cave 1, I imagine there's a lot more similarity than difference. The equipment will all be very similar (long-hose, bp/w, etc.), buoyancy/trim have to be near-mastered, etc. The biggest difference in equipment/skill for general OW divers is probably going to be between the OW/AOW and Fundies-levels.

texdiveguy
05-05-2008, 18:42
GUE came into its own after I'd gone a ways down the tec path. At this point, I don't see any point in taking classes to learn to do dives I have been doing for several years. I'd rather go dive with folks and use a mentor type process with more expierenced divers to evolve my diving now.

Ditto to Caves statement.

My TDI training in the technical side of recreational diving was/is as comprehensive as other agencies...and that includes GUE. I have always heard positives for the most part on GUE programs....and I to have read some of the the GUE materials and watched the DVD's just like I have done with DSAT and NAUI tech materials. When it come to wreck diving I have about covered the whole spectrum of agency materials! In general it's all good, some highlighting certain aspects more than others, but as a whole the core material is pretty standard.

in_cavediver
05-05-2008, 21:15
Buoyancy and trim was pretty much the same as well.

Once you're at the level of Cave 1, I imagine there's a lot more similarity than difference. The equipment will all be very similar (long-hose, bp/w, etc.), buoyancy/trim have to be near-mastered, etc. The biggest difference in equipment/skill for general OW divers is probably going to be between the OW/AOW and Fundies-levels.

Technically, Full Cave with NACD/NSS-CDS is more Cave-2 to Cave-3 territory than Cave-1. It all depends on what you have done since cert as to which is a better fit. I personally will do multi-stage dives with jumps, traverses and circuits. I'll even add deco to the mix as well. I don't scooter though. Something about not owning two.....

Gombessa
05-05-2008, 21:54
Technically, Full Cave with NACD/NSS-CDS is more Cave-2 to Cave-3 territory than Cave-1.

I see. Still, the point stands that the more advanced you go, the smaller and less skill-based the differences become. Compare you average Fundies diver to your average AOW/Master Diver diver though, and the differences are usually vast.

in_cavediver
05-07-2008, 20:23
Technically, Full Cave with NACD/NSS-CDS is more Cave-2 to Cave-3 territory than Cave-1.

I see. Still, the point stands that the more advanced you go, the smaller and less skill-based the differences become. Compare you average Fundies diver to your average AOW/Master Diver diver though, and the differences are usually vast.

I've thought about this over the last few days and you know, I don't think that's the proper comparison. Full Cave is Cave-2ish, intro is Cave-1. Not sure the best comparison on the tec side but guessing trimix is around tec-2 with advanced rec trimix at tec-1 level. Feel free to correct this.

I'd say fundies is more like intro to tec than it is master diver/AOW. It's not exactly a fair comparison to make for a fundies grad to a AOW diver. Different levels with different goals.

LiteHedded
05-08-2008, 08:44
Technically, Full Cave with NACD/NSS-CDS is more Cave-2 to Cave-3 territory than Cave-1.

I see. Still, the point stands that the more advanced you go, the smaller and less skill-based the differences become. Compare you average Fundies diver to your average AOW/Master Diver diver though, and the differences are usually vast.

I've thought about this over the last few days and you know, I don't think that's the proper comparison. Full Cave is Cave-2ish, intro is Cave-1. Not sure the best comparison on the tec side but guessing trimix is around tec-2 with advanced rec trimix at tec-1 level. Feel free to correct this.

I'd say fundies is more like intro to tec than it is master diver/AOW. It's not exactly a fair comparison to make for a fundies grad to a AOW diver. Different levels with different goals.
well cave 1 is a combination of cavern and intro. there is no gue cavern cert.
and there is a rec-triox class that is probably comparable to the rec trimix class as opposed to tech 1. but I don't know too much about the rec trimix class.

in_cavediver
05-08-2008, 16:53
Technically, Full Cave with NACD/NSS-CDS is more Cave-2 to Cave-3 territory than Cave-1.

I see. Still, the point stands that the more advanced you go, the smaller and less skill-based the differences become. Compare you average Fundies diver to your average AOW/Master Diver diver though, and the differences are usually vast.

I've thought about this over the last few days and you know, I don't think that's the proper comparison. Full Cave is Cave-2ish, intro is Cave-1. Not sure the best comparison on the tec side but guessing trimix is around tec-2 with advanced rec trimix at tec-1 level. Feel free to correct this.

I'd say fundies is more like intro to tec than it is master diver/AOW. It's not exactly a fair comparison to make for a fundies grad to a AOW diver. Different levels with different goals.
well cave 1 is a combination of cavern and intro. there is no gue cavern cert.
and there is a rec-triox class that is probably comparable to the rec trimix class as opposed to tech 1. but I don't know too much about the rec trimix class.

IANTD's rec trimix class is the only one I know the standards of and its 150' max with 15 minutes max deco. Basically thier deep diver and advanced nitrox programs but using trimix. Also should note, IANTD's advanced nitrox included deco procedures. Still, you may be right.

Vercingetorix
06-14-2008, 07:01
I think what sometimes gets folks riled is the holier-than-thou attitude carried by some DIR divers. I repeat...some.

For instance, in another thread, a recreational diver started the thread with an anecdote in which he was "insta-buddied" with a DIR diver and that diver refused to dive with him because he was not DIR. A pompous a$$.

At the other end of the spectrum, we see divers like CompuDude, who are DIR divers, and appear willing to dive with any other diver, so long as that diver is safe. He imparts his DIR knowledge without condescension, and he appears to genuinely want to help other divers improve their technique based upon his real-world experiences. His answers, in several thousand posts, are never "Because DIR and GUE say it's THIS way". If I'm being presumptuous here, let me know.

It appears to me that GUE training provides a standard, not so much because This Is The Only Way, but rather, like the purpose of military training. That is, because each person is trained the SAME way using the SAME procedures with the SAME gear in the SAME configuration, the other team members know what to expect from each other and how the other guy's gear works and where it's located. Thus, in a critical situation when adrenaline is high, Training Takes Over. The DIR diver doesn't have to look at his buddy and think, "where's his octo?...where's his weight release?...how does he attach his BC?..." He already knows.

just my two pfennigs...

rumblefish
06-14-2008, 18:56
:smilie40:

cummings66
06-14-2008, 19:35
I had thought this one died out, well, not much left to say but I think we get the point here.