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View Full Version : Barry Bonds. Legend or Punk?



thor
08-06-2007, 08:46
Barry just joined the elite club of hitting HR#755, joining the all time HR leader club, with the likes of Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, although under suspicion of using steroids. Should we celebrate or curse him. Is Bonds a record breaker or a cheat?

mike_s
08-06-2007, 08:51
To me, Tom Glavin winning his 300th game, is more exciting than anything that Barry Bonds can do now.


Remember all, Barry Bonds pesonal trainer has been in jail on contempt charges for months now to "protect" him from alleged steroid use. If Barry didn't do it, alll he'd have to do is testify that he didn't. pretty simple huh?


see Tracking Barry tough from jail
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/243171


gotta love this pic.

http://www.thestar.com/images/assets/258871_3.JPG

94GTStang
08-06-2007, 09:28
Oh snap that's a funny pic :D

Illini_Fan
08-06-2007, 09:29
I'm going with Punk -- purely gut feel, but I think he has taken plenty of steroids.

And yes,that is a great picture.

diversteve
08-06-2007, 09:40
Doesn't much matter, A-Rod's going to catch him on his way to 1000 sooner or later.

mwhities
08-06-2007, 10:02
I don't really care either way BUT, I hope a legend.. I have all of his rookie cards. ;)

Michael

mike_s
08-06-2007, 10:25
I don't really care either way BUT, I hope a legend.. I have all of his rookie cards. ;)

Michael


I'm stil not a fan of his. I've never like Bonds even before he got anywhere close to the record. I remember when he played years ago before he became "famous" and I didn't like him then.

I have no clue if I've got his baseball rookie card or not. But if I did, I'd definately sell it now just to capitalize off it's peak in worth. I suspect that when they find out he's been drugging, it's value will go down.



As for A-Rod catching him.... I hope so.

But Sammy Sosa is the closest 'active roster player' on the list with 604 total and 16 this year.

Ken Griffey Jr has 589 home runs, including 26 this year.
Frank Thomas (Blue Jays) has 505 as of now
Alex Rodriquez has 500 total with 36 this year. He's got 255 to go to catch up, which is still doable.

georoc01
08-06-2007, 10:46
Can I take both?

The guy has an amazing ability to hit the baseball. I doubt he was taking anything when he was with Pittsburgh at the start of his career.

The guy is also an egotistical jerk with a predisposition to hate the media. This was ingrained in him from his dad and godfather and how they were treated.

Not sure why they are so obsessed with nailing him on perjury charges. Aren't we on the fourth grand jury now and still haven't been able to make the case?

And I would agree, I think his hold on the record will be short lived. A-Rod should pass him within 10 years. The others are all too old or injury prone to do it.

ReefHound
08-06-2007, 11:01
And I would agree, I think his hold on the record will be short lived. A-Rod should pass him within 10 years. The others are all too old or injury prone to do it.

Exactly, A-Rod reached 500 faster than Bonds, Aaron, or Ruth. If he remains healthy he'll top 800 or more.

I'll play devil's advocate, not that I've ever been a Bonds fan. Steroids don't make you a superstar or a great player. I could take all the steroids in the world and I'm not playing in the big leagues. They can only enhance what is already there. Based on his power numbers it appears Bonds played fairly clean the first half of his career. Based on his numbers in those years it appears Bonds would have hit 500 and been a Hall of Famer anyway. Of course, cheating diminishes the record but many of those beloved legends of yesteryear were not saints either.

Maybe we should just eliminate all the rules and restrictions and judge athletes on what they can achieve however they wish to achieve it.

mike_s
08-06-2007, 11:24
Well I use Dale Murphy as a comparison.

He definately didn't use any enhancement/strength drugs as he was a devote Mormon and won't even drink coca-cola because it had caffine in it. I remember him doing Kool-Aid commercials.

He still hit just shy of 400 home runs in the same stadium that Hank broke the record in. he still won Sports Illustrate's "Sportman of the Year" one year and the National League MVP for 2 years and the Golden Glove 5 times.

Now he doesn't compare to Bonds, who's won MVP 7 times, but he did it with a lot more class.

So if you look at which one you'd rather be a 10 year old baseball fans "Hero", I wouldn't want my kid wanting to be like Barry Bonds.

94GTStang
08-06-2007, 12:06
I'm pretty sure I have his first cards too somewhere. Maybe I can pay for my next trip with them.

Black-Gorrilla
08-06-2007, 12:14
he's a PUNK!!! worthless piece of junk he is.

J-Cub
08-06-2007, 12:30
I'm going with Legend.... not that I am a fan. But you have to respect what the guy has done. Even though there is no doubt that he has used steroids at some point in his career, steroids only give you power... not ability. If you took away 200 homeruns that only happened because he had this 'extra power' than the guy still has 555 homeruns, which is a very impressive number. Also his gold gloves and base stealing weren't attributed to steroids.

But I think the best argument is that he played in the era of steroids... we are finding out that more and more athletes of this area have been doping and they didn't put up Barry Bonds numbers. So why not look at Barry as the best of his area, even if it is an ugly era, which makes him a legend.

reservecops
08-06-2007, 12:46
While I want to vote 'Punk', the one thing some of you are failing to remember is that, here in America, you're innocent until proven guilty.

Personally, I think he's a cheat.

But until you have EVIDENCE to back up a claim, it's nothing more than an unproven theory.

So I say, give him his due -- until the day it's proven otherwise.

thesmoothdome
08-06-2007, 12:52
I hate what Bonds represents. I hate the fact that he's cantakerous, rude, and not fan friendly. I hate the fact that he has all the talent in the world and still had to stoop to using roids. I hate the fact that even though there's direct evidence linking him to using, he just continues his silent denial.

That said, while being in posession of sterioids and using them without a prescription hasn't ever been legal, we all know that it has run rampant thoughout the sports world for a LONG time. A lot longer than Barry Bonds has played the game. And if it wasn't roids it was speed. If it wasn't speed it was HGH. If it wasn't HGH is was epo. There's always someone using something. You know the saying, "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying."

Does that make his accomplishment any less significant? I don't think so. Let's say that Mark McGuire hadn't gotten hurt and hadn't completely embarrassed himself in front of congress and it's him who breaks the record. The country LOVED Big Mac. Would we just look past his usage because it wasn't written into the baseball bylaws that using roids is illegal? Barry hasn't been caught using roids. We all know he did. Hell, he knows he did. We have a problem with him not because of the usage, but because of the way he has treated us as fans. Look at what happened to McGuire when he treated us like idiots. He's going to be the first 500+ HR guy not to get into the hall and he didn't do anything illegal in the world of baseball.

mike_s
08-06-2007, 14:05
Some more fun signs and comics about this....

http://boles.com/called/06/bonds.jpg



You gotta love this billboard seen on the way to the ballpark
http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/tgoodman/2006/04/11/Trade%20Barry499x360.jpg


http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/opinion/Bonds30806.jpg

BSea
08-06-2007, 14:46
I'm going with Legend.... not that I am a fan. But you have to respect what the guy has done. Even though there is no doubt that he has used steroids at some point in his career, steroids only give you power... not ability.
I agree that steroids give you power not ability. So why did a guy who was definetly a 1st round hall of famer go messing with steroids. Only reason I can think of is he wanted the record. So it was all about "HIM". Not the team, not playing to win. It was just about BARRY.

I agree that many players were probably on steroids. That's why I still look at Roger Maris as the Home Run king for a season, and Hank Aaron as the all time Home Run king. I think A-Rod will blow past Barry, and if Ken Griffey Jr. would have taken steroids, he be much further along.

If it walks like a Punk, & talks like a Punk, then it's probably a Punk.

georoc01
08-06-2007, 14:59
Exactly Bsea. What this was all about was Barry being jealous of the attention Maguire and Sosa were getting and having to be better than them. So he seeked help to do that and this is what we ended up with.

And HGH or some derivative may have kept Griffey JR much more healthy if he had done it too. And he would be right up there.

marineboy
08-06-2007, 15:52
I say he is a punk, personal opinion.

Cichlid
08-06-2007, 21:23
He is a legendary punk. Acutually, punk is way too nice of a word. He is a piece of :poop: !!! I've actually met and talked with him, he's as bad as you've heard. :smiley7: :smiley21:

But hey, that's just my thoughts. :smiley2:

Black-Gorrilla
08-06-2007, 21:26
that sign up there "Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer" is too good!!
me and my buddies went to a marlins game last season (or 2 ago) and one of my friends shows up with a syringe cut out of cardboard... and it said "he bonds... have another on me"
got plenty of laughs and plenty of looks (good and bad)

Osprey
08-06-2007, 23:33
I personally don't like his cocky attitude and would like to home run my fist into his head. Should knock him down a notch and let him remember this is a TEAM SPORT over all else!

cummings66
08-07-2007, 12:53
I'm not a fan of baseball in general, but to be honest I think many sports records set today should not be counted against the greats from yesteryear.

What they need to do is draw a line and say here's the clean records, here's the drug enhanced records. There's no way it's fair to compare the old athletes to today's, so many things are different. Do you think the Babe trained nearly as hard as this wannabe has? He wasn't even in the same league in terms of training. Imagine what he could do today given the same training and drugs.

yankeefan21
08-07-2007, 15:15
I am not a fan of Barry Bonds. I will put that out there right now.

HOWEVER - all you have to do is look back at the huge HR chase between Big Mac and Slamminí Sammy to realize that MLB didn't care. You know Selig [et all] had first hand knowledge of "the cream" and other performance enhancers and chose to turn a blind eye. In turning a blind eye, they practically encouraged "cheating." You can't applaud what they were doing then and disassociate yourself now. MLB is responsible for this monster and they have to deal with it.

With that said, you can give me all the steroids in the world and I will never hit 20 HR in a season even if you were pitching me meatballs. Barry Bonds was a talented athlete throughout his entire career. One of my friends on a sports board I'm a member of also made this very interesting point:


Let's say it's unequivocal Bonds not only took something, but turned his body into a chemistry set. Let's say you believe he was on Stanozolol, Nandrolone and any other of the myriad testosterone boosters that pump you up.

Now, let's also say that you believe that the devil is in the details, that there's existing proof out there, that Bonds was juicing from 1999-2002 as alleged.

One more step, let's say that Bonds did juice, that everything that happened was because of 'roids. Bonds has had 2 serious injuries that some could argue are the result of steroids. He missed 60 games in '99 and 140ish games in 2005. Let's just pretend he hits to his career averages those years, he cost himself 46 homeruns from those two seasons. And if you say he duplicates his past season, he cost himself 43 homeruns. And if you play the "on pace game" he cost himself around 30 homeruns in 1999 alone.

So, it's quite easy to make the argument steroid use "negated" any perceived added production.

Hate Bonds all you want, but 755+ homeruns is an AMAZING thing. If you ARE a Bonds hater, dont lose too much sleep - ARod will be passing him in about 5 years.

yankeefan21
08-07-2007, 15:23
I'm not a fan of baseball in general, but to be honest I think many sports records set today should not be counted against the greats from yesteryear.
You know, it's harder than you might think to prove that. Mantle, for example, was on amphetamines during his 61* year. What kind of an advantage did he have? He wasn't as tired during long road trips...


There's no way it's fair to compare the old athletes to today's, so many things are different.
Here, I agree with you 100%. You have to compare players' numbers to those of their contemporaries. Barry Bonds is one of the most feared hitters in baseball right now and has been throughout his career. How many MVP's does he have?

If you look at baseball history, in my mind, that's why Babe Ruth is still the greatest player ever. He was so far better than his peers that it was rediculous.

In 1920 Babe Ruth hit 54 home runs. By today's standards, that's a really good power year. How does that match up against 1920's AL standards?

The entire Boston Red Sox TEAM hit 22 HR.
The entire Detroit Tigers TEAM hit 30 HR.
The entire Washington Senators TEAM hit 36 HR.
The entire Chicago White Sox TEAM hit 37 HR.
The entire Philadelphia Athletics TEAM hit 44 HR.
The entire St. Louis Browns TEAM hit 50 HR.

In other words, the man hit 8% more home runs than the best TEAM in the league. Let's put this in perspective - for a guy to put on the kind of show Babe Ruth did, he would have had to have hit 255 HR's last year.

In addition, there have been rule changes, there have ben expansions, ballpark dimensions have changed... When Babe Ruth was slamming all those HR's, for example, anything that hit a foul pole was called foul [now it's a fair ball]. Also, a homerun ball had to land in fair territory, not just stay inside the foul pole in the field of play - so a HR that raps around a foul pole and lands in the bleachers would have been called FOUL.

ReefHound
08-07-2007, 17:06
When Babe Ruth was slamming all those HR's, for example, anything that hit a foul pole was called foul [now it's a fair ball]. Also, a homerun ball had to land in fair territory, not just stay inside the foul pole in the field of play - so a HR that raps around a foul pole and lands in the bleachers would have been called FOUL.

On the other hand, the Babe played all his games in natural daylight which many hitters claim to prefer.

Back then it was considered less acceptable to pitch around hitters. If the Babe played today he would get walked out the wazoo. It's no coincidence that power hitters tend to get "stuck" as they near a milestone, no pitcher wants to be the trivia answer for who gave up the magic dinger.

The variance in player skill has decreased dramatically. While league batting averages have remained nearly the same, the variance has narrowed greatly. Where high .300's and even .400 batting averages once ruled, now .350 is the pinnacle and .300 is excellent. The Babe faced some great pitchers but also feasted on some very bad ones.

Pitchers back then tended to pitch complete games, pitch every 3rd or 4th game, and play positions between pitching starts. This resulted in more tired pitchers late in games. You also didn't have the ace relievers coming in to pitch one inning or even just one batter.

Bottom line, trying to compare the greats from different eras is pointless and speculative.

Dabaras
08-07-2007, 21:49
I have to go with both. He was on his way to being a HOF player before the steroids. Having read Game of Shadows, I have no doubt that he used steroids, and I believe the reasons listed in the book. He was jealous of the attention given to Mark "I'm not here to talk about the past" Macguire and Sammy "Corked Bat" Sosa. While you may be presumed innocent in a court of law, the court of public opinion has no such rule, and never will, just ask OJ.

ReefHound
08-07-2007, 23:11
It's over, #756 is in the books. It was a pretty dramatic scene no matter how you feel about him. A pretty touching recorded speech by Hank Aaron on the big screen, too.

Cichlid
08-07-2007, 23:13
:smiley21: Boooooooooooo! :smiley21:

It is a sad, sad day. :smiley19:

AiRhOg
08-07-2007, 23:30
punk! i hate this guy. hank aaron is a true champion and a team player. barry bond doesnt care about his team, he cares about barry bond. if i caught #756 i'd throw it back... no wait a minute i'd sell it on ebay and buy scubatoys (the store)

nferra2
08-08-2007, 01:40
I think he is just crazy, and he needs mental help. I also think thats true for alot of athletes and celeb's.

BSea
08-08-2007, 08:00
It's over, #756 is in the books. It was a pretty dramatic scene no matter how you feel about him. A pretty touching recorded speech by Hank Aaron on the big screen, too.
I didn't see it happen, didn't see the speach, and will turn off sportscenter everytime it is shown. Hammerin Hank is still the man in my book.

Cheddarchick
08-08-2007, 08:33
Cheatin' punk

thor
08-08-2007, 08:38
I loved Hank's speech. Very inspiring. Hopefully now someone (A-rod) will be so driven to oust Bonds from the throne, so that his record will only be short lived.

No matter what you think, it is still a great accomplishment, juice or no juice. It's too bad he ,akes himself so unlikeable. Aaron will always be a hero.

ReefHound
08-08-2007, 08:39
It's over, #756 is in the books. It was a pretty dramatic scene no matter how you feel about him. A pretty touching recorded speech by Hank Aaron on the big screen, too.
I didn't see it happen, didn't see the speach, and will turn off sportscenter everytime it is shown. Hammerin Hank is still the man in my book.

Funny thing is Aaron upstaged Bonds on his own night, in the class department. While Bonds spoke of what it meant to him and how he felt, Aaron spoke of the significance of the home run to baseball, how honored he was to have held the record for 33 years and would now step aside to pass the torch, and how his dream tonight was the same as on that night in 1974, that in these historical achievements young people everywhere will find the inspiration to chase their own dreams.

mike_s
08-08-2007, 08:51
[quote=BSea;19738]

Funny thing is Aaron upstaged Bonds on his own night, in the class department. While Bonds spoke of what it meant to him and how he felt, Aaron spoke of the significance of the home run to baseball, how honored he was to have held the record for 33 years and would now step aside to pass the torch, and how his dream tonight was the same as on that night in 1974, that in these historical achievements young people everywhere will find the inspiration to chase their own dreams.


I agree completely. Hank is a class act. I expected nothing less from him.


For those who didn't see hank's message, you can watch it here at the end of the "at bat"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNKbK2Wr_58

yankeefan21
08-08-2007, 09:53
Back then it was considered less acceptable to pitch around hitters. If the Babe played today he would get walked out the wazoo. It's no coincidence that power hitters tend to get "stuck" as they near a milestone, no pitcher wants to be the trivia answer for who gave up the magic dinger.
Fair enough. The interesting thing about this argument is that Ruth held the record for most walks from 1929 until he was finally passed by Rickey Henderson in 2001. That's a LONG time. So, while pitchers may not have issued intentional walks as often - they certainly still intentionally walked batters.


Pitchers back then tended to pitch complete games, pitch every 3rd or 4th game, and play positions between pitching starts. This resulted in more tired pitchers late in games. You also didn't have the ace relievers coming in to pitch one inning or even just one batter.
This is precisely why I only compare players to their contemporaries. Babe Ruth and Duffy Lewis were in the same lineup, were seeing the same pitchers, playing at the same time of day, batting in the same ballparks, etc. Ruth hit .376 with 54 HR while Lewis hit .271 with 4 HR. If you look at the entire league - the average player hit .280 so Ruth was hitting 96 points higher than average.


Bottom line, trying to compare the greats from different eras is pointless and speculative.
Again, I agree with you here. My assertion was that if I HAD to choose the greatest player in history, I would use the delta between the player and his contemporaries. The era of baseball between 1919 and 1933 is littered with records and titles held by a single man. Ruth was so far ahead of his peers it is almost laughable. AND - let's not forget one major point, as good as Ruth was with the bat, he was just as dangerous on the base paths AND was "Johan Santana" dominating as a pitcher. I'd love to see Bonds pitch a few innings! :smiley20:

Anyway, congrats to Bonds, I guess.

Dabaras
08-09-2007, 23:29
ESPN did a funny thing with their "BS"PN translator at the end of Hank's speech where a computerized voice comes on and says:
"You used more modern science than the space program to break my record"

yankeefan21
08-10-2007, 11:57
ESPN did a funny thing with their "BS"PN translator at the end of Hank's speech where a computerized voice comes on and says:
"You used more modern science than the space program to break my record"
:smilie39:

Yeah - that speach was pretty staged. I hate to say this but I agree with Bob Costas, I think Hank did it because he pretty much had to [being the class act he is]. I also noted that it was really more like a slap on the back than a guy embracing a peer.

georoc01
08-10-2007, 13:13
I agree that he probably did it for his friend Bud Selig. I met Hank once, seemed like a real nice guy. Was signing autographs for a company during a trade show, back before they got the paid appearances they do now.

For all the hatred that Bonds has endured, it was self imposed. In the case of Hank, it was just plain racism at the time.