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Scotttyd
05-29-2008, 13:36
What gas mixture do most people dive in their pony's (bailout emergency use only). At first I would assume it would be the same as your main tank, but then i though, I use different mixtures in my back tank based on the dive (air in the quarry, nitrox 30-36 % in the ocean). I would assume I would either keep air or 30% nitrox.

Rainer
05-29-2008, 13:37
Use air. It's bail out and you want to make sure you can bail to it at any depth. Also, as you mentioned, your back gas might change between dives, so air will give you the most options.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
05-29-2008, 13:48
I'm assuming NC Coastal diving. For bailout, use air, or thereabouts. If you have a transfill, you could top it off using your main tank. You might end up with 25% or so over time. Most shops I use for fills will top of my pony for free when I'm getting my other tanks filled.

Scotttyd
05-29-2008, 13:56
I'm assuming NC Coastal diving. For bailout, use air, or thereabouts. If you have a transfill, you could top it off using your main tank. You might end up with 25% or so over time. Most shops I use for fills will top of my pony for free when I'm getting my other tanks filled.
would that be DU and/or gypsy?

mike_s
05-29-2008, 14:22
I would assume I would either keep air or 30% nitrox.


that would sound good until you did dives with a M.O.D (max operating depth) deeper than 30% can support.

For example the Oriskany flight deck is about 135 feet, so most folks would use max nitrox of 27% or so to keep your PO2 down.

MSilvia
05-29-2008, 14:22
I'd say that as an alternative to air, recreational divers could use the best mix for the deepest depth they visit.

Rainer
05-29-2008, 14:30
I'd say that as an alternative to air, recreational divers could use the best mix for the deepest depth they visit.

But what's the point? It's not like the increased N2 in this case is going to make ANY difference (you're ascending). Why waste the money? Why deal with the possibility of ending up past the MOD of the nitrox mix? I rarely advocate for air, but in this case, it seems logical.

diver-wife
05-29-2008, 14:43
air makes sense, you simply want to get to the surface, you do not want to risk your PO2 getting high, even with 30%,

BSea
05-29-2008, 15:19
I'd say that as an alternative to air, recreational divers could use the best mix for the deepest depth they visit.

But what's the point? It's not like the increased N2 in this case is going to make ANY difference (you're ascending). Why waste the money? Why deal with the possibility of ending up past the MOD of the nitrox mix? I rarely advocate for air, but in this case, it seems logical.

I agree with MSilvia. I normally use between 32 & 36 for lake diving. In the event you do need to use it, then it makes sense to have something close to the mix you'd be diving. And your argument for air for ascending seems to make a case for using nitrox while ascending. If you plan your dive for the mix(s) you are carrying, then you shouldn't be going past you MOD anyway, so a higher than desired PO2 shouldn't happen, and you benefit from breathing a higher O2 percent while ascending.

If you normally don't use your pony, and want to leave the mix in your tank for several weeks, then use a lighter mix just in case you want to make some deeper dives.

On another note, I use a MOD based on 1.6 for my pony. My thinking is that if I'm using it, I'm ascending anyway, so I should only be at that MOD for just a few seconds when I initially switch to my pony on an ascent.

Rainer
05-29-2008, 15:24
I'd say that as an alternative to air, recreational divers could use the best mix for the deepest depth they visit.

But what's the point? It's not like the increased N2 in this case is going to make ANY difference (you're ascending). Why waste the money? Why deal with the possibility of ending up past the MOD of the nitrox mix? I rarely advocate for air, but in this case, it seems logical.

I agree with MSilvia. I normally use between 32 & 36 for lake diving. In the event you do need to use it, then it makes sense to have something close to the mix you'd be diving. And your argument for air for ascending seems to make a case for using nitrox while ascending. If you plan your dive for the mix(s) you are carrying, then you shouldn't be going past you MOD anyway, so a higher than desired PO2 shouldn't happen, and you benefit from breathing a higher O2 percent while ascending.

If you normally don't use your pony, and want to leave the mix in your tank for several weeks, then use a lighter mix just in case you want to make some deeper dives.

On another note, I use a MOD based on 1.6 for my pony. My thinking is that if I'm using it, I'm ascending anyway, so I should only be at that MOD for just a few seconds when I initially switch to my pony on an ascent.

You seem to think there's some decompression advantage to having the same mix in the pony as the back gas. For a direct ascent plus safety stops, it's going to make NO difference. Feel free to play with some decompression software to see why. Why you want to rock a higher PPO2 in an emergency situation is beyond me. What if the reason you're using the pony is because you're entangled at your max depth? What if you're on a wall and the emergency involves you already being below your back gas MOD?

Take air.

comet24
05-29-2008, 15:45
I'd say that as an alternative to air, recreational divers could use the best mix for the deepest depth they visit.

I agree to a point. If this pony is strictly a bail out then you likely not filling it every dive. To most it not worth the expense to fill it to a new mix every dive.

I would fill it to the MOD of the deepest diving you are doing for a specific trip or for the dives for a month or something like that.

IndyDiver
05-29-2008, 16:10
I think Rainer makes a good point in general. If you are going to have an emergency that needs a pony, why not have the gas that allows you the max MOD? That way, you can fill the tank once and forget about it no matter what depth you plan to dive to.

That said, I will now play the Devil's Advocate for the opposing point of view:

I personally never dive below about 110-120 feet. Knowing this, I could put 32% in a pony and never have a PO2 above 1.5. So now the big question, If I am diving at 100 feet with 32% and have to switch to the pony during an emergency - why would I want air in it to increase narcing in the middle of an emergency?

Rainer
05-29-2008, 16:11
I'll answer the Devil:

(1) Why rock a 1.5 PPO2 when you don't have to?
(2) Nitrox doesn't help with narcosis...

IndyDiver
05-29-2008, 16:22
On point 1 - I don't necessarily think 1.5 is desirable, but I had my role speaking for the devil to play.

On point 2 - Narcing is based on the partial prossure of the nitro in your breathing gas. If you put in more O2, you have to make room for it by taking out the N2, so Nitrox will help with narcosis because the partial pressure of the nitrogen will look like you just ascended to 87 feet.

Rainer
05-29-2008, 16:24
I don't think any of the major agencies are teaching that nitrox reduces narcosis. Are they?

I (and many) take O2 to be just as narcotic as N2.

BSea
05-29-2008, 16:37
You seem to think there's some decompression advantage to having the same mix in the pony as the back gas. For a direct ascent plus safety stops, it's going to make NO difference. Feel free to play with some decompression software to see why. Why you want to rock a higher PPO2 in an emergency situation is beyond me. What if the reason you're using the pony is because you're entangled at your max depth? What if you're on a wall and the emergency involves you already being below your back gas MOD?

Take air.There is always a hypothetical situation that will get you in trouble. If I'm tangled at depth & out of my main gas, I'd better have a buddy close because odds are that pony isn't going to save my life. Now, I'm not hell bent against using air in a pony. And if that's what you want then I think that's fine. I just don't see a "REAL" problem with using a mix in your pony bottle. And I don't mix my pony for each dive, but I do allow for a max depth based on the lower gas mix between my pony & regular tank. I don't believe I've ever used my pony at max depth, but I won't be afraid of it either.

On another point, I don't use a pony for deco. I use it for what it's intended.

Rainer
05-29-2008, 16:40
You seem to think there's some decompression advantage to having the same mix in the pony as the back gas. For a direct ascent plus safety stops, it's going to make NO difference. Feel free to play with some decompression software to see why. Why you want to rock a higher PPO2 in an emergency situation is beyond me. What if the reason you're using the pony is because you're entangled at your max depth? What if you're on a wall and the emergency involves you already being below your back gas MOD?

Take air.There is always a hypothetical situation that will get you in trouble. If I'm tangled at depth & out of my main gas, I'd better have a buddy close because odds are that pony isn't going to save my life. Now, I'm not hell bent against using air in a pony. And if that's what you want then I think that's fine. I just don't see a "REAL" problem with using a mix in your pony bottle. And I don't mix my pony for each dive, but I do allow for a max depth based on the lower gas mix between my pony & regular tank. I don't believe I've ever used my pony at max depth, but I won't be afraid of it either.

On another point, I don't use a pony for deco. I use it for what it's intended.

And I don't see a problem with filling a pony with a lean nitrox (on non-wall dives). Why you'd PLAN to run up to a higher PPO2 when you don't have to is still weird. The real issue, however, is that I just don't see ANY benefit to using nitrox in the pony over air, so don't know why anyone would pay the extra money to do it. If you see some benefit, please state it.

ChrisA
05-29-2008, 16:41
What gas mixture do most people dive in their pony's (bailout emergency use only). At first I would assume it would be the same as your main tank,.

Use air. You do not want to have a MOD on a bailout.

If you are so deep that you couldn't use air then you'd likely not be using a pony botle as a bailout.

IndyDiver
05-29-2008, 16:42
Actually, the PADI manual for the Nitrox class says just about what you said about O2 and N2 being an even up trade for narcosis. However, I think they meant that about depths well below 100 feet. From what I have read, PADI does not even acknowledge that narcosis occurs at less than 100 feet

A long, long time ago (before a 20 year hiatus from diving), I had an instructor sit me on the bottom at 90 feet and had me add up four 3-digit numbers. It took me over a minute. I have never forgotten that.

Flash forward to the present. I have been at 90 feet on nitrox, and I didn't feel anything like that fuzzy headed. My feeling is that, for me, O2 is nowhere near as intoxicating as nitrogen in in the 100 foot and above range.

So, usual forum disclaimer - this is all IMHO

Rainer
05-29-2008, 16:44
If you want to reduce narcosis, use He.

if you want to fill a pony bottle, use air.

ChrisA
05-29-2008, 16:48
I don't think any of the major agencies are teaching that nitrox reduces narcosis. Are they?

I (and many) take O2 to be just as narcotic as N2.

I think now days they all are saying just as you do, Nitrox does not reduce narcosis. I know that PADI says that outright now.

But many people were trainned years ago and still remember to old training about nitrox being "safer". Now we know that the only thing nitrox does for you is reduce the amount of nitrogen that is absorbed into body tissues. Nothing more.

IndyDiver
05-29-2008, 16:51
If you want to reduce narcosis, use He.

if you want to fill a pony bottle, use air.


I thought we were having a good time with this thread about the value of air vs. nitrox in a pony bottle, but this could be better.

Let's start a new thread about the value of He in dives above 100 feet :smiley29:

Anyway, work is over - so I have to split. BTW, around here nitrox is such a PITA to get, it is really just a vacation thing for me.

BSea
05-29-2008, 16:53
And I don't see a problem with filling a pony with a lean nitrox (on non-wall dives). Why you'd PLAN to run up to a higher PPO2 when you don't have to is still weird. The real issue, however, is that I just don't see ANY benefit to using nitrox in the pony over air, so don't know why anyone would pay the extra money to do it. If you see some benefit, please state it.I can see your point on the financial aspect, but I still don't see the problem with using a mix similar to your back gas. And when I said I use a MOD based on 1.6, I didn't mean that I took it to the limit. And since I don't mix my pony for every dive, the odds that my pony & back gas are the same isn't very likely. So if my back gas has a MOD of 111 based on 1.4 PO2 (as does my buddy) and my pony has a MOD of 100 based on 1.6 PO2, then I'll look at my max as 100. I fail to see how this is risky. Would you limit your depth if you didn't have the pony? If anything, I think my way is safer. than a diver going to 110 with the same back gas & no pony.

Rainer
05-29-2008, 16:53
It was you, not me, saying he gets narced out of his mind at 90'...

Rainer
05-29-2008, 16:55
And I don't see a problem with filling a pony with a lean nitrox (on non-wall dives). Why you'd PLAN to run up to a higher PPO2 when you don't have to is still weird. The real issue, however, is that I just don't see ANY benefit to using nitrox in the pony over air, so don't know why anyone would pay the extra money to do it. If you see some benefit, please state it.I can see your point on the financial aspect, but I still don't see the problem with using a mix similar to your back gas. And when I said I use a MOD based on 1.6, I didn't mean that I took it to the limit. And since I don't mix my pony for every dive, the odds that my pony & back gas are the same isn't very likely. So if my back gas has a MOD of 111 based on 1.4 PO2 (as does my buddy) and my pony has a MOD of 100 based on 1.6 PO2, then I'll look at my max as 100. I fail to see how this is risky. Would you limit your depth if you didn't have the pony? If anything, I think my way is safer. than a diver going to 110 with the same back gas & no pony.

Again, you've offered NO benefit of using the nitrox over air.

Since the air is cheaper, use air (ignoring the possibility that some divers might find themselves past the MOD of a nitrox mix...).

texdiveguy
05-29-2008, 16:56
I always love this question as it bring to the table some entertaining replies.

It's a good question the OP has asked.....and having glanced through the replies many of the typical responses are fairly represented.

For me persl. I use a mid sized pony bottle when diving a single back tank. The reason for the pony is simple--- contingency gas only.

As to the OP's question of the type of gas in a pony....either AIR or NITROX is fine,,,assuming one follows safe protocols in selecting an EAN mix for their dive plans MOD.

**For me I use AIR only in my pony....it's cheap, available and does everything I need it to at any recreational depth I might need it regardless of the recreational mix in my back gas tank.

:)

BSea
05-29-2008, 17:09
Again, you've offered NO benefit of using the nitrox over air.

Since the air is cheaper, use air (ignoring the possibility that some divers might find themselves past the MOD of a nitrox mix...). Ok, if breathing nitrox is a benefit in the 1st place, then I can see no reason not to use it in a pony for the same reasons. And since the pony is rarely used, the cost is really not much of an issue. And again, I don't think it's big deal either way. And I'm not trying to start an argument, I was just answering the OP's question about what I use.

Geoff_T
05-29-2008, 20:33
I don't personally see a problem with nitrox in the pony if you want to spend the money; hey it’s your money. Heck I can even see a reason you might want the same gas in your bailout if you are doing a wreck or cave dive where the bigger problem might be that you cannot ascend immediately or there is a possibility of having your dive extended, and you do not want to increase your nitrogen loading. That said it is not for everybody or every time.

Rainer
05-29-2008, 20:50
I can see it now, the "nitrox-ready cave divers pony".

texdiveguy
05-29-2008, 20:57
Heck I can even see a reason you might want the same gas in your bailout if you are doing a wreck or cave dive where the bigger problem might be that you cannot ascend immediately or there is a possibility of having your dive extended, and you do not want to increase your nitrogen loading.

If your in a cave or in a wreck and 'your having to use a pony bottle//which is highly Unlikely' as these are not the kind of bottles used in these to locations....BUT if you were and unable to ascend immediately or having to extend your dive as you say.....'nitrogen loading' I am betting(!) is not going to be high on the concerns priority list at this point.

mitsuguy
05-29-2008, 22:01
I just purchased a pony bottle setup today... I had it filled with EAN32 for the simple reason that I do not intend on diving deeper than 130' (and if I do, I'll adjust the mix if needed) With that being said, all of my non-training dives will be on EAN32 for the foreseeable future, maybe going to a 28% mix if I plan for a depth in the 110-130' range...

At any rate, the biggest benefit I see to keeping the pony the same mix, is that if it needs to be used, then you don't have to worry about computers and changing percentages or more nitrogen loading than you originally planned the dive for...

rawalker
05-29-2008, 22:58
I think it depends on whether it's a stage bottle or a bail out bottle.
For bail out I'd expect air but as a stage it would depend on the dive.

Grin
05-30-2008, 07:41
If you get a whip to fill it yourself, you can fill it with NITROX of your choice without having to get the pony O2 scrubbed etc. And since your not doing partial pressure fills, it isn't even required to have it O2 scrubbed. Just make sure you don't put too high of a mix in it, and then do a deeper dive than the mix is rated for.
Air, 28 or 30 mix is a good idea. But it really depends upon the deepest diving you are planning to do.
It's not a bail out bottle if you are using it for rich deco mixes. That's a completely different discussion.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
05-30-2008, 09:15
If your in a cave or in a wreck and 'your having to use a pony bottle//which is highly Unlikely' as these are not the kind of bottles used in these to locations....BUT if you were and unable to ascend immediately or having to extend your dive as you say.....'nitrogen loading' I am betting(!) is not going to be high on the concerns priority list at this point.

You bet your sweet bottom time that it would not be one of my first concerns at that point. And neither would the MOD of the mix. Any mix is better than water. :smiley36:

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
05-30-2008, 09:42
I'm assuming NC Coastal diving. For bailout, use air, or thereabouts. If you have a transfill, you could top it off using your main tank. You might end up with 25% or so over time. Most shops I use for fills will top of my pony for free when I'm getting my other tanks filled.
would that be DU and/or gypsy?

Yes. I've never paid to fill my pony at either place. When I take it in I always have other tanks to fill, so it really doesn't take much time for them to shoot a little air into it. I have spent thousands at both shops, I think they want me to stay happy.

slightly off topic:
Another advantage of a 30 or 40 that people hardly ever mention is that you don't have to keep it full in ordder to have a decent amount of bailout gas. My 40cf at half pressure has more bail out gas than a 19 at full pressure. I don't worry about short fills and I don't have to top it off after every time I practice using it.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
05-30-2008, 10:06
It's my belief is that nitrox is less narcotic than air but only slightly so because of the pO2 constraints. This agrees with what I have observed and is backed up by the following thought experiment.

Just assume for argument that O2 is not narcotic at all and N2 is.

At 5 ATA (132 fsw):

Mix ppN2 ppO2
Air 3.95 1.05
30% 3.5 1.5

We've reduced our ppN2 by only 11.4% at the cost of elevating our ppO2 (too high).

Even if O2 is less narcotic than N2 we still have reduced narocis by a *maximum* of 11.4%. So it doens't really matter whether O2 is narcotic or not. To replace enough N2 with O2 to have an very noticeable effect, we'd have to die from CNS toxicity.

Scotttyd
05-30-2008, 10:26
wow, this thread spiralled out of control, that is always fun. For some reason my nitrox questions tend to do that!!! I think I will go with air, as it has the highest MOD. I was just thinking of the fact that a 30 at 1/2 full is the same as a 19 - full (close enough for goverment work). there fore I will go with a 40 - and I have to be less concerned making sure I get my max air out of it.

cummings66
05-30-2008, 10:33
O2 is considered to be as narcotic as Nitrogen so you can't calculate anything based on that. I'd suggest that you have your beliefs and I have mine. I would say that I don't get as bad when we talk Narc'd as I used to get, but I think it's got nothing to do with the mix I'm using which I normally do best mix in my backgas. It's more to do with the fact that I'm calmer now than I used to be with less stress and better gear so I'm not working as hard. That helps.

For a pony, air is best IMO. Here's why. I've had the chance to go way deeper than planned to save a buddy, I busted 2.0 on the MOD to pull it off taking a lot more risk than I wanted to. Had I had air in the pony I could have used it and thus assumed less risk of toxing. I didn't, I had the best mix and no choices.

You can't plan on every dive being no deeper than X, you don't know what emergency will happen that may cause you to go deeper than planned. Fill the pony with air and you're good to go no matter what.

in_cavediver
05-30-2008, 11:15
I can see it now, the "nitrox-ready cave divers pony".

Hey, we already have them but call them 'Safety' bottles or 'buddy' bottles. Something about an 80 not really fitting the definition of a pony....

texdiveguy
05-30-2008, 11:39
Something about an 80 not really fitting the definition of a pony....

HeHeHe... I like this!

Scotttyd
05-30-2008, 14:24
wow, this thread spiralled out of control, that is always fun. For some reason my nitrox questions tend to do that!!! I think I will go with air, as it has the highest MOD. I was just thinking of the fact that a 30 at 1/2 full is the same as a 19 - full (close enough for goverment work). there fore I will go with a 40 - and I have to be less concerned making sure I get my max air out of it.
before I get corrected with my math, a 1/2 full 40 is the same as a ful 19:smiley5:

HuntsDesk
10-28-2008, 15:45
Alright...I've got a few issues with some of the postings I've read.

I think the initial response to his question should have been with a few questions. Are you diving in open water? Whats the POSSIBLE max depth? How deep do you normally plan to dive? Do you consistantly dive the same types of dives?...if not, are you going to be smart enough to consider your pony mix before the dive? Does the extra two dollars break your bank for Nitrox?

Like it was said before ... if you're diving in a cave or in a wreck, what you're going to use will be a lot different from.

As far as possible depth. I live off the coast of South Carolina and the majority of the dives here are less than 100 ft. If it was possible to do deeper, that should be considered and unless I'm digging, I cant get any deeper. Going further off shore (or traveling to other dive sites, as I often do), I would have to reevaluate.

Like the other guy who posted ... he broke the MOD to save another diver. If you feel like you could be in a situation like that and WOULD break the rules to save another diver ... perhaps you should use air.

Some other problems with what I read was .... "Well if you're already past your MOD and then you have an emergency ..." Ummm...was it your plan to go past your MOD? If so, sounds like you didnt spend enough time planning your dive. If that wasnt in your plan AND now you have an emergency ... you're actually having compounding issues. Not just the one issue of what mix should I be using. Proper planning should include a buffer between your max planned depth and your MOD depth. There are a thousand reasons why a margin of error should be included ... oh look a fish! I think this somewhat plays into experience as well.

Other considerations...

Nitrox50 (50% O2/50% Nitrogen) is commonly used as a “Travel Mix”. Travel Mix was defined as a mix commonly used to travel to and from the bottom. It can be used on the descent and then you’d switch to your “Bottom Mix” and/or be used as a “Deco Mix”. Deco mix was defined as a mix commonly used for decompression (to include 50/50, 80/20, and 100% O2 mixes).

Even if you arent doing deep diving decompression, you're still doing some decompression!

Lastly, oxygen is metabolized by our bodies, so it is not absorbed into the tissue. The overall advantage of Nitrox (especially for a travel/deco mix) is that you are replacing the nitrogen in your system with oxygen. Used in deco, you will shed more nitrogen from your system and will do so faster.

PS - I wouldnt recommending the 80/20 "Stroke Mix" ... I'll let you take a guess where it gets its name. :smashfreakB:

I use a HP steel 130 with whatever the appropriate mix is for my dive...and know that mixes of 40 or even 50 % oxygen in my pony (AL 30) wont generate problems with my shallower dives. I use an Oceanic VT3 computer which tracks the pressure in both tanks (with nifty wireless transmitters) and I can tell it which mix is being used in which tank. Then if I have to make a switch, it recaluates its tables based on the new mix.

I'd be interested in your feedback.

in_cavediver
10-28-2008, 16:20
I think you need to define the purpose of the bottle.

Pony = emergency gas only which means air is the best choice. Its good for any depth a pony is appropriate

Buddy Bottle = think of this as a horse tank or similar. Its point is to make up the third of gas your buddy would normally carry. This gas should vary a bit and might actually involve 2 tanks rather than just one. (bottom mix and deco mix). This ties directly to solo diving beyond rec limits. (IE, you need to account for that third in your gas plan)

Stage Bottle = Gas planned for use during the dive. It will vary and could be hypoxic. I have personally used a 17/47 trimix stage. This generally falls outside of the rec context but not always. Some people carry a small 2nd bottle for extra bottom time.

Deco Bottle = Gas used for planned travel and decompression. I lump travel gas with deco gas because if the condtions is used under. If you have hypoxic bottom mix, you will have deco. This stuff again falls outside rec contexts. Most of these gases tend to be a bit strong for rec use with the exception of 32%. (32%, 50/50, 80/20, 100%)

For rec diving, a pony is simply emergency air. Don't complicate it. Air is good for 187ft@1.4 and deeper if you push PO2's. Plenty good for ANY rec diving scenario. (if you find yourself at 190' on an AL80, a LOT has gone wrong already)

The other choices - deco, buddy and stage, are really beyond rec diving. Heck, I use AL80's for those and that's the standard tank for rec diving backgas.

texdiveguy
10-28-2008, 16:22
Welcome to ST forums there Huntsdesk, S.C. is a great place much of the time.

Not sure about all your ramblings in the post....just lightly read through it, it's nice to have an opinion on such matters as 'what' gas should be used in a pony bottle.....I always prefer to inexpensive mix myself. :)

I would like the benefit of hearing more from your deco diving experience about 'never' using EAN80, and I am to assume you are referring to a deco gas. (To be fair, I use it quite often with excellent results in certain dive sites and conditions).

Hope your stay here at the ST forums is a fun one!!

HuntsDesk
10-28-2008, 16:33
Welcome to ST forums there Huntsdesk, S.C. is a great place much of the time.

Not sure about all your ramblings in the post....just lightly read through it, it's nice to have an opinion on such matters as 'what' gas should be used in a pony bottle.....I always prefer to inexpensive mix myself. :)

I would like the benefit of hearing more from your deco diving experience about 'never' using EAN80, and I am to assume you are referring to a deco gas. (To be fair, I use it quite often with excellent results in certain dive sites and conditions).

Hope your stay here at the ST forums is a fun one!!

Main thing I was referring to is that you wouldnt want to accidentally grab that regulator at depth if you're were using it for deco. . . If you weren't using it as a backup but in panic started breathing it past MOD. Or if someone else were to be out of air and someone swam up, grabbed it, and used it before you could stop them. One puff of the wrong stuff at the wrong depth = Bad. And again, this is all relative to depth and mix.

Do you agree?

texdiveguy
10-28-2008, 16:46
Welcome to ST forums there Huntsdesk, S.C. is a great place much of the time.

Not sure about all your ramblings in the post....just lightly read through it, it's nice to have an opinion on such matters as 'what' gas should be used in a pony bottle.....I always prefer to inexpensive mix myself. :)

I would like the benefit of hearing more from your deco diving experience about 'never' using EAN80, and I am to assume you are referring to a deco gas. (To be fair, I use it quite often with excellent results in certain dive sites and conditions).

Hope your stay here at the ST forums is a fun one!!

Main thing I was referring to is that you wouldnt want to accidentally grab that regulator at depth if you're were using it for deco. . . If you weren't using it as a backup but in panic started breathing it past MOD. Or if someone else were to be out of air and someone swam up, grabbed it, and used it before you could stop them. One puff of the wrong stuff at the wrong depth = Bad. And again, this is all relative to depth and mix.

Do you agree?

Back to basics of this thread....pony bottle for recreational purposes is contingency gas only '=' AIR is the best pick!

In terms of any DECO gas you of course don't want to just grab it and start breathing off it.....this is were proper training and protocols come into play. One other thing that needs a bit of clearing up is that 'one' breath off the wrong gas and at the wrong depth is not the end-of-the-world 99% of the cases....what it does mean is that someone has made a serious mistake and immediate action to correct it needs to happen 'right then'.

Any EAN gases outside of the norm taught in basic Nitrox classes (32-40%) are best left for the use of those divers with appropriate training to use those gases!

fire diver
10-28-2008, 18:48
Main thing I was referring to is that you wouldnt want to accidentally grab that regulator at depth if you're were using it for deco. . . If you weren't using it as a backup but in panic started breathing it past MOD. Or if someone else were to be out of air and someone swam up, grabbed it, and used it before you could stop them. One puff of the wrong stuff at the wrong depth = Bad. And again, this is all relative to depth and mix.

Do you agree?

Back to basics of this thread....pony bottle for recreational purposes is contingency gas only '=' AIR is the best pick!

In terms of any DECO gas you of course don't want to just grab it and start breathing off it.....this is were proper training and protocols come into play. One other thing that needs a bit of clearing up is that 'one' breath off the wrong gas and at the wrong depth is not the end-of-the-world 99% of the cases....what it does mean is that someone has made a serious mistake and immediate action to correct it needs to happen 'right then'.

Any EAN gases outside of the norm taught in basic Nitrox classes (32-40%) are best left for the use of those divers with appropriate training to use those gases!

Excellent post Tex, you beat me to it. I was going to post the same thing.

fire diver
10-28-2008, 19:06
Alright...I've got a few issues with some of the postings I've read.

Nitrox50 (50% O2/50% Nitrogen) is commonly used as a “Travel Mix”.

PS - I wouldnt recommending the 80/20 "Stroke Mix" ... I'll let you take a guess where it gets its name. :smashfreakB:

.... and I can tell it which mix is being used in which tank. Then if I have to make a switch, it recaluates its tables based on the new mix.

I'd be interested in your feedback.


Funny, I sometimes find issues with other's posts too.

First, using EAN50 as a travel gas is beyond the scope of 99% of the divers. They will never dive to a level that requires a hypoxic mix, so it's a bit silly to bring it up.

Second, ahhh, never mind. I'm not even going to get involved with the 80/20 "stroke" comment. :smiley21:

Lastly, so what is your tank for? are you carrying 50% for bailout or for deco? If I have to bailout on a dive, it's pointless to do a computer gas switch. Second, if I'm going to be using the bottle for deco, then I have the dive planned out for times, contingencies, and switches, O2 clock, stop depths, etc. I would NEVER do a dive where I blindly trusted a computer to set my deco based on WTH I felt like diving at the time.

in_cavediver
10-28-2008, 20:07
Welcome to ST forums there Huntsdesk, S.C. is a great place much of the time.

Not sure about all your ramblings in the post....just lightly read through it, it's nice to have an opinion on such matters as 'what' gas should be used in a pony bottle.....I always prefer to inexpensive mix myself. :)

I would like the benefit of hearing more from your deco diving experience about 'never' using EAN80, and I am to assume you are referring to a deco gas. (To be fair, I use it quite often with excellent results in certain dive sites and conditions).

Hope your stay here at the ST forums is a fun one!!

Main thing I was referring to is that you wouldnt want to accidentally grab that regulator at depth if you're were using it for deco. . . If you weren't using it as a backup but in panic started breathing it past MOD. Or if someone else were to be out of air and someone swam up, grabbed it, and used it before you could stop them. One puff of the wrong stuff at the wrong depth = Bad. And again, this is all relative to depth and mix.

Do you agree?

Back to basics of this thread....pony bottle for recreational purposes is contingency gas only '=' AIR is the best pick!

In terms of any DECO gas you of course don't want to just grab it and start breathing off it.....this is were proper training and protocols come into play. One other thing that needs a bit of clearing up is that 'one' breath off the wrong gas and at the wrong depth is not the end-of-the-world 99% of the cases....what it does mean is that someone has made a serious mistake and immediate action to correct it needs to happen 'right then'.

Any EAN gases outside of the norm taught in basic Nitrox classes (32-40%) are best left for the use of those divers with appropriate training to use those gases!

Tex, that's one thing I really like about you. You aren't afraid to say unpopular things for internet divers.

I ALWAYS subsribed to the belief that breathing something is better than breathing nothing. If I had a total gas failure and I needed to breath (IE, surface and die option or can't physically get to the surface), I'd hit pure o2 at 200'. Its really bad but hey, it tastes better than water. (i'd also rebreathe it in the BC but that's beside the point)

HuntsDesk
10-28-2008, 20:12
Welcome to ST forums there Huntsdesk, S.C. is a great place much of the time.

Not sure about all your ramblings in the post....just lightly read through it, it's nice to have an opinion on such matters as 'what' gas should be used in a pony bottle.....I always prefer to inexpensive mix myself. :)

I would like the benefit of hearing more from your deco diving experience about 'never' using EAN80, and I am to assume you are referring to a deco gas. (To be fair, I use it quite often with excellent results in certain dive sites and conditions).

Hope your stay here at the ST forums is a fun one!!

Main thing I was referring to is that you wouldnt want to accidentally grab that regulator at depth if you're were using it for deco. . . If you weren't using it as a backup but in panic started breathing it past MOD. Or if someone else were to be out of air and someone swam up, grabbed it, and used it before you could stop them. One puff of the wrong stuff at the wrong depth = Bad. And again, this is all relative to depth and mix.

Do you agree?

Back to basics of this thread....pony bottle for recreational purposes is contingency gas only '=' AIR is the best pick!

In terms of any DECO gas you of course don't want to just grab it and start breathing off it.....this is were proper training and protocols come into play. One other thing that needs a bit of clearing up is that 'one' breath off the wrong gas and at the wrong depth is not the end-of-the-world 99% of the cases....what it does mean is that someone has made a serious mistake and immediate action to correct it needs to happen 'right then'.

Any EAN gases outside of the norm taught in basic Nitrox classes (32-40%) are best left for the use of those divers with appropriate training to use those gases!

I agree with you on all of that.

The thing that bothered me the most was that people were giving him all kinds of answers without asking any questions.

HuntsDesk
10-28-2008, 20:14
Alright...I've got a few issues with some of the postings I've read.

Nitrox50 (50% O2/50% Nitrogen) is commonly used as a “Travel Mix”.

PS - I wouldnt recommending the 80/20 "Stroke Mix" ... I'll let you take a guess where it gets its name. :smashfreakB:

.... and I can tell it which mix is being used in which tank. Then if I have to make a switch, it recaluates its tables based on the new mix.

I'd be interested in your feedback.


Funny, I sometimes find issues with other's posts too.

First, using EAN50 as a travel gas is beyond the scope of 99% of the divers. They will never dive to a level that requires a hypoxic mix, so it's a bit silly to bring it up.

Second, ahhh, never mind. I'm not even going to get involved with the 80/20 "stroke" comment. :smiley21:

Lastly, so what is your tank for? are you carrying 50% for bailout or for deco? If I have to bailout on a dive, it's pointless to do a computer gas switch. Second, if I'm going to be using the bottle for deco, then I have the dive planned out for times, contingencies, and switches, O2 clock, stop depths, etc. I would NEVER do a dive where I blindly trusted a computer to set my deco based on WTH I felt like diving at the time.

I'm really just using it as a bailout bottle. And I do the gas switching because I often do several dives in a day. I want it to be as accurate as possible for other dives.

HuntsDesk
10-28-2008, 20:19
Welcome to ST forums there Huntsdesk, S.C. is a great place much of the time.

Not sure about all your ramblings in the post....just lightly read through it, it's nice to have an opinion on such matters as 'what' gas should be used in a pony bottle.....I always prefer to inexpensive mix myself. :)

I would like the benefit of hearing more from your deco diving experience about 'never' using EAN80, and I am to assume you are referring to a deco gas. (To be fair, I use it quite often with excellent results in certain dive sites and conditions).

Hope your stay here at the ST forums is a fun one!!

Main thing I was referring to is that you wouldnt want to accidentally grab that regulator at depth if you're were using it for deco. . . If you weren't using it as a backup but in panic started breathing it past MOD. Or if someone else were to be out of air and someone swam up, grabbed it, and used it before you could stop them. One puff of the wrong stuff at the wrong depth = Bad. And again, this is all relative to depth and mix.

Do you agree?

Back to basics of this thread....pony bottle for recreational purposes is contingency gas only '=' AIR is the best pick!

In terms of any DECO gas you of course don't want to just grab it and start breathing off it.....this is were proper training and protocols come into play. One other thing that needs a bit of clearing up is that 'one' breath off the wrong gas and at the wrong depth is not the end-of-the-world 99% of the cases....what it does mean is that someone has made a serious mistake and immediate action to correct it needs to happen 'right then'.

Any EAN gases outside of the norm taught in basic Nitrox classes (32-40%) are best left for the use of those divers with appropriate training to use those gases!

Tex, that's one thing I really like about you. You aren't afraid to say unpopular things for internet divers.

I ALWAYS subsribed to the belief that breathing something is better than breathing nothing. If I had a total gas failure and I needed to breath (IE, surface and die option or can't physically get to the surface), I'd hit pure o2 at 200'. Its really bad but hey, it tastes better than water. (i'd also rebreathe it in the BC but that's beside the point)

I dont think he said anything unpopular. I agree with his comments.

...and I agree with what you said too. To be really honest...I'd rather do just about anything than breathe water.

fire diver
10-29-2008, 03:54
I'm really just using it as a bailout bottle. And I do the gas switching because I often do several dives in a day. I want it to be as accurate as possible for other dives.

WHAT?! This makes no kind of sense at all.

CompuDude
10-29-2008, 15:04
The original question was about a PONY bottle. Not a deco bottle. Not a stage bottle. Not a travel bottle. Not a back-gas bottle. And not an Argon bottle.

A PONY bottle, by it's very nature, is used for recreational diving to NDLs. (If you're going over the NDLs, on purpose, you're doing deco diving, and your "pony" is a deco bottle, and again, outside the purpose of this thread.)

People, myself included, were answering the questions with respect to a PONY bottle. Let's not get outside the scope of the discussion. This is not TDS. So frankly, none of the concerns recently cites are really applicable, and those questions weren't really relevant.

texdiveguy
10-29-2008, 15:16
The original question was about a PONY bottle. Not a deco bottle. Not a stage bottle. Not a travel bottle. Not a back-gas bottle. And not an Argon bottle.

A PONY bottle, by it's very nature, is used for recreational diving to NDLs. (If you're going over the NDLs, on purpose, you're doing deco diving, and your "pony" is a deco bottle, and again, outside the purpose of this thread.)

People, myself included, were answering the questions with respect to a PONY bottle. Let's not get outside the scope of the discussion. This is not TDS. So frankly, none of the concerns recently cites are really applicable, and those questions weren't really relevant.

DANG, you sure know how to ruin a good time!!! LOL

CompuDude
10-29-2008, 15:33
The original question was about a PONY bottle. Not a deco bottle. Not a stage bottle. Not a travel bottle. Not a back-gas bottle. And not an Argon bottle.

A PONY bottle, by it's very nature, is used for recreational diving to NDLs. (If you're going over the NDLs, on purpose, you're doing deco diving, and your "pony" is a deco bottle, and again, outside the purpose of this thread.)

People, myself included, were answering the questions with respect to a PONY bottle. Let's not get outside the scope of the discussion. This is not TDS. So frankly, none of the concerns recently cites are really applicable, and those questions weren't really relevant.

DANG, you sure know how to ruin a good time!!! LOL

Hey now, let's not let my common sense get in the way of a good time! Have at! :smiley36:

in_cavediver
10-29-2008, 16:16
The original question was about a PONY bottle. Not a deco bottle. Not a stage bottle. Not a travel bottle. Not a back-gas bottle. And not an Argon bottle.

A PONY bottle, by it's very nature, is used for recreational diving to NDLs. (If you're going over the NDLs, on purpose, you're doing deco diving, and your "pony" is a deco bottle, and again, outside the purpose of this thread.)

People, myself included, were answering the questions with respect to a PONY bottle. Let's not get outside the scope of the discussion. This is not TDS. So frankly, none of the concerns recently cites are really applicable, and those questions weren't really relevant.

DANG, you sure know how to ruin a good time!!! LOL

Hey now, let's not let my common sense get in the way of a good time! Have at! :smiley36:

The thing about common sense is that its no so common. Now, where did I put mine........