PDA

View Full Version : Scuba is potentially dangerous



RikRaeder
06-09-2008, 08:28
*****Latest Rant*****

We always hear and read about people bad mouthing different agencies, instructors &c.

Judging from some of the posts I've been reading, I think it's time that we start bad mouthing the students.

Lately, I've seen a pleothera of posts that ask about basic information that I'm sure is covered in every agency's open water texts:

Can I dive while pregnant? Does each diver need their own computer? What are the depth limits? Can I hold my breath while I rocket to the surface from 20m like Shamu? (Ok, I made that last one up, but only the last one)

Before we start slinging mud at agencies and their representatives, the instructors, let's think about such questions for a moment. People; you can die or cause serious harm to yourself and/or others while scuba diving if you don't follow some very basic guidelines. These guidelines are contained in a very basic text called <your agency's name here> Open Water Manual (or some such text). It is NOT repeat NOT your instructor or agency's fault if YOU DO NOT READ THE TEXT.

It is not someone else's fault if you die, are injured, or injure another while diving because you didn't read chapter four, or whatever. Every diver is responsible for their own safety. Period. Unquote. The end. Fini. That's all she wrote. YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

I got my OW from PADI. It's not so tough to understand. The toughest part of the text is wading through all the marketing BS for the real information. Understanding the potential dangers, I felt it was worth the hassle to find out the dos and don'ts. I implore anyone thinking to get into scuba, or anyone who didn't read chapter four to take your studies seriously and read the book cover to cover. Highlight or underline the parts that seem important. Write a little note and put it in your back pocket, under your pillow, or wherever the information will leak into your brain.

I do not bill myself as an expert diver, a super diver, Joe diver <tm> or any kind of authority. I do take pride in being a safe diver, and that starts with taking responsibility for my part of training, ie: READING THE CURSED BOOK. Please do the same.

Kind and nurturing divers: enough touchy feely, kid glove handling of such careless questions. If it's something that is covered in the basic training materials, how about a good lambasting for such questions? At least a
"it's in your OW manual. Why don't you try reading that before you post," or other, similarly snooty response. How about a little tough love here for the future casualty statistics.

Thank you.

Your's in Rancor,
RR

Martin2
06-09-2008, 08:46
Well stated. While I agree with you that every diver is responsible for his/her own safely, I would also hate to see this forum go the direction of lambasting for any question. Lambasting isn't the most effective method of redirection in any situation, and it certainly wouldn't be effective coming from someone with whom you have no relationship. Propriety and manners should not be entirely dismissed.

That said, it is ludicrous and dangerous to participate in a sport that you have actively chosen not to learn the fundamentals of. I’ll be honest, I didn’t have time to read the entire OW manual before the start of our class. But I certainly made time to do so before I finished it. Partially because our instructors were tough enough on us that it would have been difficult to BS my way through it, and partially because I understood enough to know that I needed the knowledge it contained.

I don't particularly want to dive with the diver who asked "Can I hold my breath while I rocket to the surface from 20m like Shamu?" (Didn't want to pick a real example) I'd be a lot more concerned with the diver who decided, "I can hold my breath while I rocket to the surface from 20m like Shamu." While it is a question that every diver should obviously know the answer to, I certainly don't want to see divers who even think these things be discouraged from asking so we can point out how dangerous and stupid that would be. With the direction that scuba is moving, the sport will attract those who are not as diligent as they should be in learning the basics. That is unfortunate and is without question THAT DIVER'S RESPONSIBILITY. But I'd still rather they ask than simply do something stupid.

Just my thoughts and certainly subject to debate.

mitsuguy
06-09-2008, 08:49
I agree... it is obviously impossible for an instructor to go over EVERY single piece of information in the book, however, that's why the book is there...

Personally, I read mine cover to cover twice, then wanted more information and read the 950 page navy dive manual... I hate not knowing why, so that's my drive for information... I know that not everyone needs to know why, and just needs to know the rules, so thats cool, but you are right, it is obvious that many people her have not read the basic literature required for class...

BSea
06-09-2008, 09:00
You have to understand that many people don't remember things they learn if they aren't exposed to it on a regular basis. How many of us remember all those geometry equations. I for 1 don't remember the pregnancy issue when I took open water (then again, I never expect it will be an issue for me :) ). So if an inexperienced diver asks a question, then if I have an answer, or some information that I think helps, then I'll contribute. There is no such thing as a stupid question (unless you already know the answer).

Many people come to this forum to escape the ridicule they get from other forums. So if it seems like a basic question, lets give then the benefit of the doubt & answer the question.

And yes, diving is potentially dangerous, but so is driving a car. Look at all the drivers who shouldn't be allowed behind the handlebars of a tricycle let alone a car.

Martin2
06-09-2008, 09:04
Look at all the drivers who shouldn't be allowed behind the handlebars of a tricycle let alone a car.

What we need is a solution for that!

wgt
06-09-2008, 09:14
*****Latest Rant*****

We always hear and read about people bad mouthing different agencies, instructors &c.

Judging from some of the posts I've been reading, I think it's time that we start bad mouthing the students.

Lately, I've seen a pleothera of posts that ask about basic information that I'm sure is covered in every agency's open water texts:

Can I dive while pregnant? Does each diver need their own computer? What are the depth limits? Can I hold my breath while I rocket to the surface from 20m like Shamu? (Ok, I made that last one up, but only the last one)

Before we start slinging mud at agencies and their representatives, the instructors, let's think about such questions for a moment. People; you can die or cause serious harm to yourself and/or others while scuba diving if you don't follow some very basic guidelines. These guidelines are contained in a very basic text called <your agency's name here> Open Water Manual (or some such text). It is NOT repeat NOT your instructor or agency's fault if YOU DO NOT READ THE TEXT.

It is not someone else's fault if you die, are injured, or injure another while diving because you didn't read chapter four, or whatever. Every diver is responsible for their own safety. Period. Unquote. The end. Fini. That's all she wrote. YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

I got my OW from PADI. It's not so tough to understand. The toughest part of the text is wading through all the marketing BS for the real information. Understanding the potential dangers, I felt it was worth the hassle to find out the dos and don'ts. I implore anyone thinking to get into scuba, or anyone who didn't read chapter four to take your studies seriously and read the book cover to cover. Highlight or underline the parts that seem important. Write a little note and put it in your back pocket, under your pillow, or wherever the information will leak into your brain.

I do not bill myself as an expert diver, a super diver, Joe diver <tm> or any kind of authority. I do take pride in being a safe diver, and that starts with taking responsibility for my part of training, ie: READING THE CURSED BOOK. Please do the same.

Kind and nurturing divers: enough touchy feely, kid glove handling of such careless questions. If it's something that is covered in the basic training materials, how about a good lambasting for such questions? At least a
"it's in your OW manual. Why don't you try reading that before you post," or other, similarly snooty response. How about a little tough love here for the future casualty statistics.

Thank you.

Your's in Rancor,
RR

I definitely agree with some of your basic points. Certainly, divers should ideally hunt through reading materials provided with dive courses to satisfy their own curiosities. However, I do not agree that divers broadly benefit from rants, even when obviously guided by the considerable sense and wisdom that you clearly possess. I have read your previous posts and have benefited from your input, just as many other have, I am sure.

Bearing in mind that somebody just might be on the road when they have a chance to ask a question, their books may have been lost, etc., I would suggest an alternative approach to what may seem like an elementary question. Why not answer the question, perhaps quoting the relevant section of a diving textbook?! The brighter readers will get the idea that their textbooks just might still come in handy, and those disinclined to look things up for themselves just might view you as the wise authority that you are.

Concerning actual virtues of newbie-type questions, it is important to bear in mind that they are often a source of some thought-provoking discussion (thinking about things is at least as important as knowing them). It is also worth noting that textbooks, however useful they may be, are not always clear and easy to follow, and they are certainly not always correct or up-to-date. I would therefore recommend the following: Treat each suspect question as an opportunity to explain things better than the textbook did. In so doing, you will probably also enhance your own understanding, enjoyment, and safety.

Ryanh1801
06-09-2008, 09:20
It is not someone else's fault if you die, are injured, or injure another while diving because you didn't read chapter four, or whatever. Every diver is responsible for their own safety. Period. Unquote. The end. Fini. That's all she wrote. YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
RR

This here is my biggest complaint about scuba training. Way to much training to rely on your dive buddy. But thats a totally different rant.

But, I agree with BSea, I like this board a lot because its not like SB. I can ask questions and not feel the need to defend myself. Lets not let a good thing go bad. :smiley20:

Rileybri
06-09-2008, 09:24
*****Latest Rant*****

We always hear and read about people bad mouthing different agencies, instructors &c.

Judging from some of the posts I've been reading, I think it's time that we start bad mouthing the students.

Lately, I've seen a pleothera of posts that ask about basic information that I'm sure is covered in every agency's open water texts:

Can I dive while pregnant? Does each diver need their own computer? What are the depth limits? Can I hold my breath while I rocket to the surface from 20m like Shamu? (Ok, I made that last one up, but only the last one)

Before we start slinging mud at agencies and their representatives, the instructors, let's think about such questions for a moment. People; you can die or cause serious harm to yourself and/or others while scuba diving if you don't follow some very basic guidelines. These guidelines are contained in a very basic text called <your agency's name here> Open Water Manual (or some such text). It is NOT repeat NOT your instructor or agency's fault if YOU DO NOT READ THE TEXT.

It is not someone else's fault if you die, are injured, or injure another while diving because you didn't read chapter four, or whatever. Every diver is responsible for their own safety. Period. Unquote. The end. Fini. That's all she wrote. YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

I got my OW from PADI. It's not so tough to understand. The toughest part of the text is wading through all the marketing BS for the real information. Understanding the potential dangers, I felt it was worth the hassle to find out the dos and don'ts. I implore anyone thinking to get into scuba, or anyone who didn't read chapter four to take your studies seriously and read the book cover to cover. Highlight or underline the parts that seem important. Write a little note and put it in your back pocket, under your pillow, or wherever the information will leak into your brain.

I do not bill myself as an expert diver, a super diver, Joe diver <tm> or any kind of authority. I do take pride in being a safe diver, and that starts with taking responsibility for my part of training, ie: READING THE CURSED BOOK. Please do the same.

Kind and nurturing divers: enough touchy feely, kid glove handling of such careless questions. If it's something that is covered in the basic training materials, how about a good lambasting for such questions? At least a
"it's in your OW manual. Why don't you try reading that before you post," or other, similarly snooty response. How about a little tough love here for the future casualty statistics.

Thank you.

Your's in Rancor,
RR

Why don't you take a step back from your soap box and remember why we are all waisting our employers valuable time hear on the ST forums. I know it was a LONG time ago but you were a new diver once as well. I find it very had to believe that you never had any "basic" questions regarding your early diving quests. Sure lots of stuff is "in the book" but I/we don't always have access to it when a question arises. I/we don't always understand what it is the cryptic information is trying to say in "the book". As was stated in this and many other threads that are not stupid questions. Noting says you have to read, let alone answer questions about diving whale pregnant. Granted there are plenty of questions that could be answered with a simple search of the internet's or even this forum. With that said why not let people ask there questions, gain the knowledge they obviously did not absorb in there "books" and become the safer diver you strive for them to be. Rant if you want just do it with an eye to where you came from and the questions you forgot you asked when you were new.

Now the crazy drivers who don't belong on the roads is another story all together.


Have a nice day!

BTD

Geoff_T
06-09-2008, 09:56
To me this whole issue comes from whether or not people take responsibility. There are a lot of ways to get injured or killed in this world. The question is what are you going to do about it. Did you know that electrocution is one of the top killers of Local TV news photographers. We are trained otherwise but there are a couple every year who die this way. The same goes for scuba accidents. And driving that is to say, you have a chance of death even when you are doing things right. Which is why to me personally there is no excuse to not educate ones self.

Though I can fully understand somebody forgetting the pregnancy thing if they are a man, or were certified years ago and it was not an issue at the time. Also I think that we need as a community to show some restraint and not jump down somebody’s throat because they are asking legitimate questions. Some people are just new, some get certified and don't dive for 10 years and others may just want to see if the general consensus differs from what they were taught. Hey I remember being taught that nitrox was safer than air and that the increased safety was the big reason to dive it, not the case anymore.

.

mauiiop
06-09-2008, 10:47
Wow if someone has a question answer it, this a very nice forum and we do not want to become "the other one". I am here because people can ask and get an answer. The only stupid question is the one not asked and the only stupid answer is the one that does not answer the question. Please keep it nice. So far this is the best for non attacking friendly boards for divers.

gthomas
06-09-2008, 10:57
Sounds like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. We all have questions from time to time. The book nor the class can cover everything. Also some things are worth saying over and over.

mitsuguy
06-09-2008, 10:58
I think a lot of people are taking this rant as a negative for newbies on the site, but I don't see it that way... We pretty much always offer answers to questions that are asked and answered numerous times here... So much, that if you search pony bottle right now, there are two or three active threads that all say the same thing...

The OP's frustration is that people don't understand the severity of a lack of training, and much of that training is self taught in books and such...

Martin2
06-09-2008, 11:20
I think a lot of people are taking this rant as a negative for newbies on the site, but I don't see it that way... We pretty much always offer answers to questions that are asked and answered numerous times here... So much, that if you search pony bottle right now, there are two or three active threads that all say the same thing...

The OP's frustration is that people don't understand the severity of a lack of training, and much of that training is self taught in books and such...

Agreed, though I think the responses may be related more to the OPs suggestion regarding how we should respond to these sorts of questions.


Kind and nurturing divers: enough touchy feely, kid glove handling of such careless questions. If it's something that is covered in the basic training materials, how about a good lambasting for such questions? At least a "it's in your OW manual. Why don't you try reading that before you post," or other, similarly snooty response. How about a little tough love here for the future casualty statistics.

waytooslow
06-09-2008, 11:28
being a newbie and student - I will chime in.

I joined this forum to learn and to ask questions, yes - some may seem dumb and may be in the "manual" - but even bringing up previously discussed information is like a "review" - everybody wins.

Remember that there are differnt groups here, padi, naui, ssi - all slightly different "manuals"

Forums are for knowledge and information sharing... IMHO.. of course I am new, so what do I know.

navyhmc
06-09-2008, 11:37
One of the best things I have enjoyed about Scuba Toys forums is that is it a very friendly and relaxed forum. There are folks here who started diving a year after J.C. invented the aqualing and folks who are just starting to think about the wonderful sport of SCUBA. That my friends is a huge amount of experience and more importantly knowledge.

Some one forgot or didn't know about something that another thinks is a very trivial or "Duh" type of question? So what, they asked it so we shold be equally friendly to help them out. That is what I enjoy the most about the diving community I have belonged to for 34+ years:

My first out of the states trip was to Kino Bay, Mexico in '78. And only because a couple of divers that I had dove with before asked my folks if I could go as they thought I would enjoy the trip and the dives. Talk about going above and beyond for a young fellow diver. That is what i see in this forum.

This past weekend, a student diver was getting ready for his first deep dive and had found out on an earlier dive that his low-end entry level regulator (unbalanced) was not up to the shallower depth much less a deeper dive. I had an extra regulator so I loaned it to him-even changed his SPG/Compass/Computer over to my reg so he wouldn't have to learn my setup. His dive went very well, he learned that you get what you pay or in a reg and why quality is important.

The fact is the diving community is by far and wide friendly and helpful I think it begins with that buddy system we stress.

What's more important, bashing or building? Someone needs help, let's help them. If you don't want to help, read and move on. No Harm, No Foul!

frankc420
06-09-2008, 12:01
The title of this thread made me laugh. What's potential about it? SCUBA IS dangerous, no matter how you look at it.

maggs_the
06-09-2008, 13:00
The fact is the diving community is by far and wide friendly and helpful I think it begins with that buddy system we stress.

What's more important, bashing or building? Someone needs help, let's help them. If you don't want to help, read and move on. No Harm, No Foul!

Agreed :smiley20:

One of the most important things you can learn about diving is responsibility for oneself and I don't recall that being stressed in any of the classes. Only when I returned from my Nitrox checkout dives and got BLASTED by my LDS for letting the local shop "check and confirm" my Nitrox mix versus me verifying it myself did I ever really get a wake-up call that you're not supposed to let yourself be baby-sat.

Yes the information is there and available but with the incredible child-speak of most of the texts, it can be difficult to weigh the importance and severity of the knowledge it actually contains. And what about those folks who took the training in a day at some non-USA resort?? Were they even told how important this stuff is? Or were they assured they were getting a 4-Star PADI Resort training and had no reason to worry about that "other stuff"?

Personally, I have great distaste for stupid people but I am more tolerant of ignorant people. Ignorant people can learn while stupid people just will not. I find that most of the newbies fall into the ignorant category but even when I find a stupid one, I am not going to blast them. I am going to ignore them :D

ianr33
06-09-2008, 13:07
The recreational agencies shoulder a large part of the blame IMHO. Scuba is marketed as being easy and fun for whole family. Well,sometimes it is and sometimes it can kill you.But they dont say that in the OW manual.

One of the things I appreciated about the "technical" training I have done is that their is much more emphasis on "how do I stay alive doing this stuff"

Geoff_T
06-09-2008, 13:34
The recreational agencies shoulder a large part of the blame IMHO. Scuba is marketed as being easy and fun for whole family. Well,sometimes it is and sometimes it can kill you.But they dont say that in the OW manual.

One of the things I appreciated about the "technical" training I have done is that their is much more emphasis on "how do I stay alive doing this stuff"

True about the marketing, but seriously you can be killed doing most anything recreational. I can’t think of anybody I knew personally who was seriously injured or killed diving. (knock on wood) Though I can personally think of 3 killed in car accidents, and probably a dozen sent to the hospital for ski accidents including my brother who shattered his femur.

Yes you can be injured, bitten, drown, embolism diving. But given the inherent risks in many other recreational things we do it is not some gonna get you killed thing. Heck I could be backpacking and end up suffering 3 of those 4 things I just listed, plus frostbite, hypothermia and starvation to name a few more (By the way it hurts like He** when your feet thaw). So I can understand not wanting to scare the newbies right off the bat, I can even agree with it. Most divers tend to stick to the touristy reef stuff or stay with in fairly shallow simple limits. As they grow they will go to new heights, ahem depths. Along the way learning as they go, that is where it is our jobs as more experienced peers to guide them and help them, without making them afraid to ask for that help which they need.

So lets not start judging what is and isn’t a valid question as they are all good and asked for a reason. Just think if people didn’t start asking what’s down there or thought it was just fish and sea monsters than we would not be able to dive today.

divedeeper
06-09-2008, 14:41
I joined this forum about two or three months before I ever even signed up for OW class. I had a lot of "elementary" questions that were answered in OW class. Not only do I agree that harshness/snootiness is NOT the best answer to a seemingly "stupid" question, but to add my own $.02, I would ask the OP to consider the audience of this forum. I did not have to present my C-Card to join, thank God... Because the fact of the matter is several members of this forum answered basic snorkeling gear package questions for me as well as answered several questions that would either have kept me from or served to propel me forward into taking OW class. So if a pregnant woman decides she always wanted to learn scuba and finally has the guts to do it and wants to know if she can do it now, how about chilling out a little bit and considering that maybe not every member of this forum knows what you know, has the experience you have, and maybe take a step back from judging them to the point of already condemning them to be statistical fatalities.

Diving is supposed to be fun! Don't forget that, man...

Dive Deeper

longtailbda
06-09-2008, 14:49
I agree that it is every divers responsibility to try to learn about the pitfalls or dangers of their chosen sport.
In defense of the people who are asking these basic questions at least they're asking. Goodness knows I've asked plenty of odd and basic questions over the years. It may just be that the more experienced members of this forum are doing their job by helping those who know less than they may know themselves.

maggs_the
06-09-2008, 19:05
I joined this forum about two or three months before I ever even signed up for OW class.




excellent point.. i didnt even consider that :smiley20:

Athena2c
06-09-2008, 19:26
I really don't think anything is accomplished by giving "snooty" answers. If you think it's a dumb question and don't want to answer, then move on...why tell someone they asked a dumb question? What does that get you or them?
If you feel you should say to someone that they can also get the answers by reviewing their OW manual, then you can say that respectfully, and have a better chance of being 'heard' than if you are snotty about it.
I have a lot of experience telling people things they do not want to hear, and believe me, you have a much better chance of making a positive impact by being clear and kind.

Splitlip
06-09-2008, 19:45
I am going to throw some blame on a litigious society but mostly the agencies and their marketing that Scuba is good and safe for everybody. My Open Water instructor was Frank Hammett. He taught us to be self reliant and put the fear of God in me. Always focused on what could go wrong. Don't see that anymore.
DEEP DIVE (http://www.sfdj.com/dive/deep.html)
I don't mean "this is how you share air, this is how you clear a mask". I mean coming up behind a student and shutting his air off or ripping off a mask.

Having said that, we need to be open to questions from new divers. Yes maybe it in the book. However, right or wrong, unless the teachers and mentors motivate them properly, students are going to strive to pass the exam, not learn the material. After all, this is the 90's. Oh um wait...

hooligan
06-09-2008, 21:10
I took my open water class in 1993 when I was 12 years old. I think it was 4 hours a night, 2 nights a week for almost a month. (If I remember correctly ) I remember actually reading the entire OW book. Now, when my wife got certified 3 years ago, a 4 hour DVD and weekend pool session was all that was needed for the class requirement (Yeah, it comes with the book, but it’s marketed more as a reference than a required reading). I watched the DVD with her, and it had some good info… BUT it did not even come close to covering everything in the book. So after watching the DVDs, I made sure we went back through the book. Now if you have someone who has never been exposed to diving and don't have anyone around them with experience, and they find out all they need to do is watch a DVD and spend a weekend in the pool, there’s not much a motivation to read the “reference manual”. Should they read the whole book? Yes. Is reading the whole book requirement for certification these days? No. I think the cert agencies are trying to push as many people through as possible. So If a newbie has a question, why not answer it?

Geoff_T
06-09-2008, 22:16
I took my open water class in 1993 when I was 12 years old. I think it was 4 hours a night, 2 nights a week for almost a month. (If I remember correctly ) I remember actually reading the entire OW book. Now, when my wife got certified 3 years ago, a 4 hour DVD and weekend pool session was all that was needed for the class requirement (Yeah, it comes with the book, but it’s marketed more as a reference than a required reading). I watched the DVD with her, and it had some good info… BUT it did not even come close to covering everything in the book. So after watching the DVDs, I made sure we went back through the book. Now if you have someone who has never been exposed to diving and don't have anyone around them with experience, and they find out all they need to do is watch a DVD and spend a weekend in the pool, there’s not much a motivation to read the “reference manual”. Should they read the whole book? Yes. Is reading the whole book requirement for certification these days? No. I think the cert agencies are trying to push as many people through as possible. So If a newbie has a question, why not answer it?


This has pretty much been my experiance as well. I just think that the standards have gotten to a point where it is more about pushing people through quick than correct. I have also watched padi drop the age requirement I belive twice to what I belive is just a bit too young. The nitrox course no longer requires dives. And I am sure others can think of training requirements that simply do not exist anymore in the push to simplify training.

mitsuguy
06-09-2008, 23:43
The nitrox course no longer requires dives.

Actually, I agree with that entirely... There is no difference in use of nitrox, so long as you have the rules and standards learned properly...

Nitrox doesn't breathe any different than air, you learn absolutely nothing by actually diving with it... The important parts are understanding the whys of the rules, and being able to analyze it yourself...

ianr33
06-09-2008, 23:47
The nitrox course no longer requires dives.

Actually, I agree with that entirely... There is no difference in use of nitrox, so long as you have the rules and standards learned properly...

Nitrox doesn't breathe any different than air, you learn absolutely nothing by actually diving with it... The important parts are understanding the whys of the rules, and being able to analyze it yourself...

But what if you are doing a 110 foot dive on a wall that drops to 5000 feet and have no boyancy control. Should you have a nitrox card? Will your lack of in water skills show up on a multiple choice test??

mitsuguy
06-10-2008, 00:02
The nitrox course no longer requires dives.

Actually, I agree with that entirely... There is no difference in use of nitrox, so long as you have the rules and standards learned properly...

Nitrox doesn't breathe any different than air, you learn absolutely nothing by actually diving with it... The important parts are understanding the whys of the rules, and being able to analyze it yourself...

But what if you are doing a 110 foot dive on a wall that drops to 5000 feet and have no boyancy control. Should you have a nitrox card? Will your lack of in water skills show up on a multiple choice test??

I kinda get your point, but the nitrox course isn't about buoyancy control, and there is no literature in any of the cert agencies text about buoyancy control and nitrox, so, in theory, an instructor couldn't fail you because you had bad buoyancy... It is definitely a skill you should / need to have, but its not a skill that should be covered in the nitrox course...

navyhmc
06-10-2008, 08:40
The nitrox course no longer requires dives.

Actually, I agree with that entirely... There is no difference in use of nitrox, so long as you have the rules and standards learned properly...

Nitrox doesn't breathe any different than air, you learn absolutely nothing by actually diving with it... The important parts are understanding the whys of the rules, and being able to analyze it yourself...

But what if you are doing a 110 foot dive on a wall that drops to 5000 feet and have no boyancy control. Should you have a nitrox card? Will your lack of in water skills show up on a multiple choice test??


But what if you're doing that same dive with air? No difference. A nitrox card only says that you know the risks/benefits of nitrox, know how to figure EAD and PP ATA as well as the signs and symptoms of Ocxygen toxicity and MOD's for the gas that you learned how to test for the correct O2%.

Now, that said if you're a fairly new diver, why are you at 110' on an abysmal wall?

cummings66
06-10-2008, 08:49
It's an interesting rant, one that has provoked some thoughtful comments and explanations for some questions that should have been answered but weren't because they had yet to take a course.

I think I had never thought of it that way before.

horsmen
06-13-2008, 13:01
well i know a few years ago b4 i started class or got the books..ok the cd roms

i was asking some very basic question i wanterd to knwo before i invested time and money.

i would hate to spend the 80-90 bucks for the cd roms another 100-150 for the class rental grear and get home load up the cd rom and say wow this isnt for me i cannt do this or that.

ya i might get the money back for the class but the cd rom and rental i am stuck with because i open the package and took the gear from the store i might get some cash back on the rental but not all.


so because you see a question that we all know dosent mean the person asking been to class yet

i know i knew the avg dive is 30-45 min because you run out of air before i ever took class i was thinking hhmm i swim underwater alot if i dive like i swim a deep breath hear and there and hold hit i cam make my dive longer. now i been to class i know that a very big nono but i could see why someone that hasnt taken a class yet might ask why not


well that my 2 cents

3boyzmom
06-20-2008, 13:33
I am a newbie. I read every single page of the OW manual, then bought the advanced manual and started reading it too, not because I was going to do my AOW anytime soon, but because I wanted the knowledge. But when you're getting certified, there's a whole lot of "new" information there for you- along with equipment questions and issues related to how your own body performs while diving. I think it's really important to be able to ask questions without being screamed at, demeaned, or otherwise insulted. I'm an intelligent person, and I do take responsibility for my own safety while diving, but I may still ask a question that to you seems stupid. For me, it's just a lack of experience. Besides, what's so wrong with someone sharing their experience to make someone else's diving better?

You also have to remember that sometimes you get different information from different sources. For example, I went to my local dive shop and asked about a problem I was having with the mask bruising the bridge of my nose. He said, "You need a new mask." I posted the same question on the boards, and someone explained to me how to fix the problem- which was mask squeeze. Now, to YOU the mask issue probably seems stupid- duh, breathe out through your nose a little bit. But that was the first time I had heard that, and even my local dive shop didn't suggest it. So, problem solved- and it didn't cost me anything either!

In my situation, nobody I know dives except my husband. My family thinks I'm nuts. I have nobody to ask questions of, and sometimes I like to know the "why" of things- which isn't usually in a book!

If someone asks a question you don't want to answer, or you think it stupid, just move on to the next thread and allow the kinder people to answer. That's the whole thing about a "community"- it's people helping each other. If you don't want to be part of this one, find one with equally snobby people who spend their time being rude to each other. Or, start your own "I'm a better diver than you" club so you can all fight it out.

Thankfully I haven't run into many people like you on these boards- I've had that experience on other boards, and don't go back.

JimHar99
06-20-2008, 13:59
I agree that Scuba diving has inherent (sp) danger. I agree that we all should be responsabile for oursleves.

But I cxan't agree that some questions shouldn't be posted, because they are in the manual. There may be many posters who are not certified yet and have not read the manual. Plus, it wouldn't be much of a forum if every basic question was answered by "RTM". Many interesting points are made in the discussions that were started with questions that are addressed in the OW course.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
06-20-2008, 14:08
I confess to asking questions to which I already know the answer. It's partly because of the incentive to post. And partly because I sometimes see ignorance in others that I would like to correct. By asking my question I can bring some issues to people's attention that they might never otherwise think about. From the responses, I occasionally learn another aspect about the issue in question.

In a previous life I was a system administrator and I would get the same questions over and over. The response I wanted to give was RTFM, but I always bit my tongue instead.

thesmoothdome
06-20-2008, 14:18
The nitrox course no longer requires dives.

Actually, I agree with that entirely... There is no difference in use of nitrox, so long as you have the rules and standards learned properly...

Nitrox doesn't breathe any different than air, you learn absolutely nothing by actually diving with it... The important parts are understanding the whys of the rules, and being able to analyze it yourself...

But what if you are doing a 110 foot dive on a wall that drops to 5000 feet and have no boyancy control. Should you have a nitrox card? Will your lack of in water skills show up on a multiple choice test??

Does it really matter if you're on air or nitrox at that point?

As for the original topic, yes, everyone should be responsible for their learning. What better way than asking questions? Even if it's in the manual, does it hurt to ask or start a discussion about it? You'll probably get more in depth answers here than you will from an OW manual.

david_57
06-20-2008, 14:23
Nitrox course is only theory and should be, by the time you get to this point hopfully you have the ability to control your buoyancy within the MOD if not, don't waste your money on Nitrox courses take the buoyancy course and spend the balance on air fills to practice.

skdvr
06-20-2008, 15:15
I do not mind if someone asks a basic question that should have been covered in their class...

It could have been a while since they took the class.

You are covering so much that is completely new to you that it easily could have been in one ear and out the other.

They may know what they think is the answer and just want someone elses opinion on it.

Or they just want to pi$$ someone like the OP off.

Bottom line for me is that at least they ask! I would rather ask the dumb question than make the dumb mistake. I am sure that I have asked some questions, and some people have read it and though "What the heck is wrong with this guy". But I wanted to hear what others had to say about it. I do not mind answering questions that are completely covered in OW either. If someone feels that they need to ask, then ask away.

Along the same lines, why I do not mind diving with someone that is fresh out of OW. I do not mind staying at 20 or 30 ft, or what ever depth they are comfortable with. I do not mind practicing buoyancy control with someone. If they want to get in the water and spend 30 min just tryign to stand on their head that is fine with me. You have to learn some how some way.

In skydiving there is this mentality called "The Skygod" mentality. When you think because you have been around for a while that if it takes someone 10 min to pack a parachute and it takes you 2 min that they are not nearly as good as you. If they cant quite control their fall rate then you do not want to jump with them. That really drove me crazy, because everyone has to start somewhere.

I have been pretty lucky so far to not see that mentality first hand in SCUBA. I am not a very experienced scuba diver with only 70 dives, there are a few very experienced divers that I run into at my LDS from time to time, and none of them have any problems with me asking questions, or diving with them. I have seen it on some of the boards though, and I do not like it. If you think that someone question is below you then just go onto another post. If you want to correct a mistake that someone is making or has made then fine, but do not yell at someone just because they wanted to ask about something that to you is TRIVIAL, because to them it has some importance...

Phil

Draq
06-20-2008, 15:33
I agree with the original post. We should not tolerate questions that were answered in a basic OW manual. Only more creative and sophisticated questions should be tolerated.

By the way, is it safe to fill my tank with a bicycle pump if I can find or make an adapter?

navyhmc
06-20-2008, 16:13
I agree with the original post. We should not tolerate questions that were answered in a basic OW manual. Only more creative and sophisticated questions should be tolerated.

By the way, is it safe to fill my tank with a bicycle pump if I can find or make an adapter?

PM and I'll send you the DIY plans for an adapter....:D:smilie39:

This by the way is a very good way to develop your arm muscles-only takes me 48 hours of constant pumping to get a 3000 psi fill. And you can't let up or you'll lose your pressure-haven't gotten that one way valve installed yet. But I am saving $5.00 on fills and it only took $3,278 to make the adapter. :smilie39::smilie39:

david_57
06-20-2008, 16:22
I agree with the original post. We should not tolerate questions that were answered in a basic OW manual. Only more creative and sophisticated questions should be tolerated.

By the way, is it safe to fill my tank with a bicycle pump if I can find or make an adapter?

I don't agree sometimes people tend to forget thats why they have refresher courses. Who determines if the question is sophisticated? For all you newbies out there feel free to ask me anytime and probably many other more experienced divers on this forum would not mind. When I first became OW certified I asked many questions that may obvious now but not at the time. Again what the hell is sophisticated got to do with it!!!

In answer to your question do not use a bicycle pump to add air to your tank especially considering many tanks can handle as much as 3,500 PSI and I doubt you could pump even 100 psi.

rumblefish
06-21-2008, 05:25
*****Latest Rant*****

We always hear and read about people bad mouthing different agencies, instructors &c.

Judging from some of the posts I've been reading, I think it's time that we start bad mouthing the students.

Because we all know how bad-mouthing a student, a beginner in our sport will encourage them to continue and be safer divers.



Before we start slinging mud at agencies and their representatives, the instructors, let's think about such questions for a moment. People; you can die or cause serious harm to yourself and/or others while scuba diving if you don't follow some very basic guidelines. These guidelines are contained in a very basic text called <your agency's name here> Open Water Manual (or some such text). It is NOT repeat NOT your instructor or agency's fault if YOU DO NOT READ THE TEXT.

Agency standards have changed. The old days where an OW class was several weeks long is long past gone. Scuba is a sport and a hobby but first and foremost for some a business. In order for scuba to survive it has had to make compromises. If that means learn to dive in a weekend or giving titles like master diver, well so be it. Some sacrifices, which I personally don't agree with were made. Let's just say that scuba training these days is at best...uneven.





It is not someone else's fault if you die, are injured, or injure another while diving because you didn't read chapter four, or whatever. Every diver is responsible for their own safety. Period. Unquote. The end. Fini. That's all she wrote. YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.


I don't think I've ever seen anyone on the board blame their instructor's for their lack of knowledge in certain areas. That being said, sometimes you can see where training standards are not what they were by the questions new divers ask.



I got my OW from PADI. It's not so tough to understand. The toughest part of the text is wading through all the marketing BS for the real information.

People posting on this board are asking for more information from people who have experience. Sometimes it helps to get a reaffirmation on something you've read by speaking with seasoned divers and dive pros. I think a lot of these questions are helping beginners weed through the marketing BS and understanding the real information.



I do not bill myself as an expert diver, a super diver, Joe diver <tm> or any kind of authority. I do take pride in being a safe diver, and that starts with taking responsibility for my part of training, ie: READING THE CURSED BOOK. Please do the same.

People posting here are being responsible for their safety by asking questions on things they may not be totally sure about. Maybe you have a natural talent for picking up scuba topics. Maybe reading material is the best way for you to learn. Don't assume that it's the best way for everyone. Good divers are always learning. I don't think that all the wealth of knowledge contained on this board is going to be in a "cursed PADI/NAUI/SSI/ETC" BOW book.



Kind and nurturing divers: enough touchy feely, kid glove handling of such careless questions. If it's something that is covered in the basic training materials, how about a good lambasting for such questions? At least a
"it's in your OW manual. Why don't you try reading that before you post," or other, similarly snooty response. How about a little tough love here for the future casualty statistics.

Thank you.

Your's in Rancor,
RR

Because honestly, at that point you come across as being an arrogant prick.

3boyzmom
06-21-2008, 10:44
To Rumblefish:

:smiley32::smiley32::smiley32::smiley32::smiley32:

crosseyed95
06-21-2008, 15:02
*****Latest Rant*****

I do not bill myself as an expert diver, a super diver, Joe diver <tm> or any kind of authority. I do take pride in being a safe diver, and that starts with taking responsibility for my part of training, ie: READING THE CURSED BOOK. Please do the same.

Kind and nurturing divers: enough touchy feely, kid glove handling of such careless questions. If it's something that is covered in the basic training materials, how about a good lambasting for such questions? At least a
"it's in your OW manual. Why don't you try reading that before you post," or other, similarly snooty response. How about a little tough love here for the future casualty statistics.

I'm a professional trainer outside of diving.

Not everyone can read. If they can, are you sure the person you are talking to has the neurological ability to transfer that knowledge into working practice? You'd be suprised the number of people that cannot just pick up the books, read and then apply the knowledge. This doesn't mean they are stupid or dumb it just means I have to teach using a different method.

Now many students won't tell you they have a problem because they want to appear "normal". They are afraid of people saying "didn't you read the book you idiot". Tell you what, I'd rather train someone who can't just read the book but asks lots of questions, than I would to train the one who reads the book and then thinks they are a genius.

When teaching, it can be hard to know if someone isn't taking responsibility for their training or if they are hiding the fact they can't understand. I side on caution and put energy into everyone until proven different. This also guards me legally since many times court systems have said it's OK to not take responsibility for your actions.

Guess what I'm asking here is how can you condemn someone for asking questions? If they are asking questions, even ones in the book, are they not taking responsibility for themselves?

crosseyed95

david_57
06-21-2008, 18:02
*****Latest Rant*****

We always hear and read about people bad mouthing different agencies, instructors &c.

Judging from some of the posts I've been reading, I think it's time that we start bad mouthing the students.

Because we all know how bad-mouthing a student, a beginner in our sport will encourage them to continue and be safer divers.



Before we start slinging mud at agencies and their representatives, the instructors, let's think about such questions for a moment. People; you can die or cause serious harm to yourself and/or others while scuba diving if you don't follow some very basic guidelines. These guidelines are contained in a very basic text called <your agency's name here> Open Water Manual (or some such text). It is NOT repeat NOT your instructor or agency's fault if YOU DO NOT READ THE TEXT.

Agency standards have changed. The old days where an OW class was several weeks long is long past gone. Scuba is a sport and a hobby but first and foremost for some a business. In order for scuba to survive it has had to make compromises. If that means learn to dive in a weekend or giving titles like master diver, well so be it. Some sacrifices, which I personally don't agree with were made. Let's just say that scuba training these days is at best...uneven.





It is not someone else's fault if you die, are injured, or injure another while diving because you didn't read chapter four, or whatever. Every diver is responsible for their own safety. Period. Unquote. The end. Fini. That's all she wrote. YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.


I don't think I've ever seen anyone on the board blame their instructor's for their lack of knowledge in certain areas. That being said, sometimes you can see where training standards are not what they were by the questions new divers ask.



I got my OW from PADI. It's not so tough to understand. The toughest part of the text is wading through all the marketing BS for the real information.

People posting on this board are asking for more information from people who have experience. Sometimes it helps to get a reaffirmation on something you've read by speaking with seasoned divers and dive pros. I think a lot of these questions are helping beginners weed through the marketing BS and understanding the real information.



I do not bill myself as an expert diver, a super diver, Joe diver <tm> or any kind of authority. I do take pride in being a safe diver, and that starts with taking responsibility for my part of training, ie: READING THE CURSED BOOK. Please do the same.

People posting here are being responsible for their safety by asking questions on things they may not be totally sure about. Maybe you have a natural talent for picking up scuba topics. Maybe reading material is the best way for you to learn. Don't assume that it's the best way for everyone. Good divers are always learning. I don't think that all the wealth of knowledge contained on this board is going to be in a "cursed PADI/NAUI/SSI/ETC" BOW book.



Kind and nurturing divers: enough touchy feely, kid glove handling of such careless questions. If it's something that is covered in the basic training materials, how about a good lambasting for such questions? At least a
"it's in your OW manual. Why don't you try reading that before you post," or other, similarly snooty response. How about a little tough love here for the future casualty statistics.

Thank you.

Your's in Rancor,
RR

Because honestly, at that point you come across as being an arrogant prick.


Touche 100% agree!!!! Rikrader been in Japan to long;-}

JahJahwarrior
06-21-2008, 19:29
If someone can't read, I'm not sure how safe diving would be for that person.

I'm not saying they are stupid, I'm saying that you need to be able to read in some places in order to do things safely. Like get to the dive site. Lots of road signs. What about product manuals? Should I make them swear to get those read to them before they use them, in order to certify them?

In particular, the stop signs in caves....some are shaped like stop signs, but some are not. How in the world can a person who can't read, read one of the grim reaper signs in order to recognize that they are not in OW zone any longer?


I'm not saying I agree with Rikraider 100%, but I am saying that scuba diving is NOT a right, it's a privelige, and scuba certification is NOT a right, it's earned. Many people don't earn it, they pay for it, and that's the problem.

obrules15
06-21-2008, 19:42
I do believe that SCUBA is potentially dangerous and you should take responsibility for yourself. I do not, however, believe that we should censor the questions people ask. If you are having "that" kind of day (do guys get PMS?) such that someone else's question on the internet upsets you just keep cruising to another posting and let those of us who don't mind answering the same questions over and over again deal with that. With that being said I much prefer "stupid questions" than people who read a ton of books and THINK they are experts. The other issue with those kind of questions is that we all know that there are times in life when "how it should be" differs from "actual practice". Asking questions is just a way to affirm that what you read in the book isn't there because of the lawyers circling.

thesmoothdome
06-21-2008, 20:07
If someone can't read, I'm not sure how safe diving would be for that person.

I'm not saying they are stupid, I'm saying that you need to be able to read in some places in order to do things safely. Like get to the dive site. Lots of road signs. What about product manuals? Should I make them swear to get those read to them before they use them, in order to certify them?

In particular, the stop signs in caves....some are shaped like stop signs, but some are not. How in the world can a person who can't read, read one of the grim reaper signs in order to recognize that they are not in OW zone any longer?


I'm not saying I agree with Rikraider 100%, but I am saying that scuba diving is NOT a right, it's a privelige, and scuba certification is NOT a right, it's earned. Many people don't earn it, they pay for it, and that's the problem.

You said one thing correctly here...and that's if people don't earn their certification, they pay for it. This isn't a sport like volleyball where if you hit the ball wrong, you might bruise or sprain your wrist. It's very possible that people die when they do things wrong here.

To say that if someone can't read, they can't dive is plainly foolish. Most people who are illerate learn how to surive in the real world. They learn what they need to learn in order to function at a certain level. Can they plow through a book and make those so important connections, probably not, but that's not what makes a good diver. There are multiple learning styles out there. Some learn from visually seeing everything, some learn from listening and some learn from doing. If the instructor is any good, they'll figure out how the student best learns. It is a little easier for those of us who taught/teach for a living, but a good instructor is going to understand learning modalities as well.

JahJahwarrior
06-21-2008, 20:17
You said one thing correctly here...and that's if people don't earn their certification, they pay for it. This isn't a sport like volleyball where if you hit the ball wrong, you might bruise or sprain your wrist. It's very possible that people die when they do things wrong here.

To say that if someone can't read, they can't dive is plainly foolish. Most people who are illerate learn how to surive in the real world. They learn what they need to learn in order to function at a certain level. Can they plow through a book and make those so important connections, probably not, but that's not what makes a good diver. There are multiple learning styles out there. Some learn from visually seeing everything, some learn from listening and some learn from doing. If the instructor is any good, they'll figure out how the student best learns. It is a little easier for those of us who taught/teach for a living, but a good instructor is going to understand learning modalities as well.

I think that certifications could be given to illeterate people....but I think that it should be done on an extremely limited basis. A person who cannot read is unlikely to be able to learn from the internet here, or from books they get from the library, or from anything other than watching other divers. You can learn that way, but you prevent yourself fromlearning many important lessons by being unable to read. An OW class for someone who can't read needs to cover a lot more material than for someone who can read and learn from toher diver's mistakes on the internet. A lot of my mentoring has been from reading what other divers have written. It can be done, diving without being able to read, but I would not trust every instructor to be able to teach a course thoroughly enough. Too many instructors paid for their instructor card rather than earning it....

obrules15
06-21-2008, 20:29
You said one thing correctly here...and that's if people don't earn their certification, they pay for it. This isn't a sport like volleyball where if you hit the ball wrong, you might bruise or sprain your wrist. It's very possible that people die when they do things wrong here.

To say that if someone can't read, they can't dive is plainly foolish. Most people who are illerate learn how to surive in the real world. They learn what they need to learn in order to function at a certain level. Can they plow through a book and make those so important connections, probably not, but that's not what makes a good diver. There are multiple learning styles out there. Some learn from visually seeing everything, some learn from listening and some learn from doing. If the instructor is any good, they'll figure out how the student best learns. It is a little easier for those of us who taught/teach for a living, but a good instructor is going to understand learning modalities as well.

I think that certifications could be given to illeterate people....but I think that it should be done on an extremely limited basis. A person who cannot read is unlikely to be able to learn from the internet here, or from books they get from the library, or from anything other than watching other divers. You can learn that way, but you prevent yourself fromlearning many important lessons by being unable to read. An OW class for someone who can't read needs to cover a lot more material than for someone who can read and learn from toher diver's mistakes on the internet. A lot of my mentoring has been from reading what other divers have written. It can be done, diving without being able to read, but I would not trust every instructor to be able to teach a course thoroughly enough. Too many instructors paid for their instructor card rather than earning it....

Actually I don't think that anyone is actually advocating knowingly giving the same cert to someone who cannot read but if you pay attention to how illiterate people function in the world they become master's at "getting by". They learn cues to take tests (many, many have DL's) what to say to who and how to get by. They have in many cases taken four years worth of high school tests without anyone figuring out they cannot read. The point, I think simply is, you never know why someone needs to ask a question so why not just answer it instead of judging.

oddbod
06-21-2008, 20:50
Actually I don't think that anyone is actually advocating knowingly giving the same cert to someone who cannot read but if you pay attention to how illiterate people function in the world they become master's at "getting by". They learn cues to take tests (many, many have DL's) what to say to who and how to get by. They have in many cases taken four years worth of high school tests without anyone figuring out they cannot read. The point, I think simply is, you never know why someone needs to ask a question so why not just answer it instead of judging.

I know of a medical doctor who is illiterate, he has a major form of dyslexia, but got through school and Uni having someone read the texts to him:smiley32:, if someone read him a dive manual he could probably teach diving theory the next day, it is just how his brain is wired.:dunno:

JahJahwarrior
06-21-2008, 20:58
I certainly have no issue with answering questions! :D



But, sometimes my answer will be a link to another thread. I try to not shrug questions off with "search!!", even though I have, usually I'll try to go find a few links to threads I know are useful, or give them an idea of some search terms to use.

It's just like how people use quotations. People have already answered many questions, and given better answers than I can give. So why would I attempt to answer it, when I can just refer someone to the better answer? :)

Flatliner
06-23-2008, 19:45
Rumble, you're my new hero!!!

I have been following a thread on "the other board" about spare-air. This thread seemed like it was going to have the same feeling at first. Thanks for remembering that it's OK to discuss and ask, after all, it's a discussion board, not a go read your manual or I will make fun of you board.

jbanks27
06-24-2008, 17:14
Every diver starts out as a newbie. Also, allot of non-divers probably visit these forums to see what this sport may be about. The average person, unlike some of us, goes out and gets their C-Card and maybe dives once a year on their vacation. You figure they did 4 dives for their card, and do maybe 4-6 dives a year on vacation. They forget probably 80% of what they learned in class and proably imitate what they see everyone else doing on the boat.

How many of us have traveled overseas to a dive operation who takes care of everything? Hand Pedro the local DM $50.00 and you never touch your equiptment again during the week? How many of us dive single, and get paired up with "Bubba" the scuba steve wanna be and get to see his immitation of bouncing bob or wandering willy?

There are allot of great divers and dive professionals on these forums who with their combined knowledge have the ability to answer the newbie questions to make the person feel comfortable and maybe give them some good direction on how to either enter our sport or be safer at it. While I can understand some of the agnst from the questions... I think the best one I got was not a question but a statement. "I'm going to get a spare air so I can snorkle and stay down longer!", we have to remember that scuba has allot to do with sharing.

RikRaeder
06-25-2008, 18:03
So people who "...didn't read the last two chapters in the book" should rely on the internet to fill the holes in their education? That, by the way, is an exact response from a person who had the kind of question I originally posted about. Most agencies' training manuals are available for study or review for a much longer period than, say, a resort class lasts.

I guess some people really can't read, or don't have enough imagination to read between the lines. While many of you have advocated a kinder, gentler approach, it seems also that you have missed the tongue-in-cheek aspect of the orginal post. I believe that people should definitely be responsible for their own training, but worded my post a bit strongly. I'm sorry if some of you didn't see the humor, but I challenge anyone to find one of my responses in a post where I was "snooty" or "lambasted" someone. I certainly haven't resorted to calling or inferring that anyone was a "prick," or other such offensive slandering. I guess I don't rate the circle of love, Kumbiaha treatment.

I never said that I was against asking questions, even simple ones. I said that I was against not studying up on the material, be that book, dvd, instructor face time.

I haven't jumped in before now, because no one has addressed me, particulary, until recently.

Eddym67
06-25-2008, 18:21
Remember, this is a Forum. Some Educated and some not so much. ALL Opinion and some fact.I do see a lot of new divers on "Other Sites" giving advice. Do what you feel is comfortable with you. If you have a question, ask it. No Questions are Dumb. We All have the same interest. DIVING. Do it Safely and use COMMON SENSE.

DiverMAN
06-25-2008, 19:17
Isn't everything potentially dangerous. walking down your street is potentially dangerous, driving a car is potentially dangerous, what isn't potentially dangerous?

JahJahwarrior
06-25-2008, 20:26
Isn't everything potentially dangerous. walking down your street is potentially dangerous, driving a car is potentially dangerous, what isn't potentially dangerous?

Everything is potentially dangerous.

But diving is more dangerous. If you have a seizure (ox tox) or get slightly drunk and make foolish decisions (ie: narc'd) on land, you'll probably be fine. Maybe you'll cut yourself, maybe wake up with a tattoo, maybe lose your wallet. Underwater, those simple little things can kill you. Being underwater adds a whole new level of danger, and not everyone is responsible enough to handle that.


... No Questions are Dumb. We All have the same interest. DIVING. Do it Safely and use COMMON SENSE.

I disagree with your proposition that there are no stupid questions.

Eddym67
06-25-2008, 21:16
Like I said,Common Sense (Diving w seizure would kill you. Driving w seizure may kill many). Educate Yourself. No stupid questions, just stupid people. Ask Questions. I have more than 50 dives in Fl. Been to Gainesville several times.

mannyolivarez03
06-25-2008, 21:55
*****Latest Rant*****

We always hear and read about people bad mouthing different agencies, instructors &c.

Judging from some of the posts I've been reading, I think it's time that we start bad mouthing the students.

Lately, I've seen a pleothera of posts that ask about basic information that I'm sure is covered in every agency's open water texts:

Can I dive while pregnant? Does each diver need their own computer? What are the depth limits? Can I hold my breath while I rocket to the surface from 20m like Shamu? (Ok, I made that last one up, but only the last one)

Before we start slinging mud at agencies and their representatives, the instructors, let's think about such questions for a moment. People; you can die or cause serious harm to yourself and/or others while scuba diving if you don't follow some very basic guidelines. These guidelines are contained in a very basic text called <your agency's name here> Open Water Manual (or some such text). It is NOT repeat NOT your instructor or agency's fault if YOU DO NOT READ THE TEXT.

It is not someone else's fault if you die, are injured, or injure another while diving because you didn't read chapter four, or whatever. Every diver is responsible for their own safety. Period. Unquote. The end. Fini. That's all she wrote. YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

I got my OW from PADI. It's not so tough to understand. The toughest part of the text is wading through all the marketing BS for the real information. Understanding the potential dangers, I felt it was worth the hassle to find out the dos and don'ts. I implore anyone thinking to get into scuba, or anyone who didn't read chapter four to take your studies seriously and read the book cover to cover. Highlight or underline the parts that seem important. Write a little note and put it in your back pocket, under your pillow, or wherever the information will leak into your brain.

I do not bill myself as an expert diver, a super diver, Joe diver <tm> or any kind of authority. I do take pride in being a safe diver, and that starts with taking responsibility for my part of training, ie: READING THE CURSED BOOK. Please do the same.

Kind and nurturing divers: enough touchy feely, kid glove handling of such careless questions. If it's something that is covered in the basic training materials, how about a good lambasting for such questions? At least a
"it's in your OW manual. Why don't you try reading that before you post," or other, similarly snooty response. How about a little tough love here for the future casualty statistics.

Thank you.

Your's in Rancor,
RR


Very well put..............:smiley20:

Eddym67
06-25-2008, 22:22
Very Well Put. Do Not Blame others for your own Stupidity. Take Responsibility.

JahJahwarrior
06-25-2008, 22:45
Like I said,Common Sense (Diving w seizure would kill you. Driving w seizure may kill many). Educate Yourself. No stupid questions, just stupid people. Ask Questions. I have more than 50 dives in Fl. Been to Gainesville several times.

Exactly: divers need to educate themselves. Divers need to be willing to take the time to perfect their education, which means learning and knowing thoroughly the course material, and searching out answers on the internet. You then ask questions, and avoid being a stupid person or a stupid question asker. Couldn't have said it better myself!

Gotta be careful diving in Gainesville....the cave bug will bite you!

BSea
06-26-2008, 08:56
Like I said,Common Sense (Diving w seizure would kill you. Driving w seizure may kill many). Educate Yourself. No stupid questions, just stupid people. Ask Questions. I have more than 50 dives in Fl. Been to Gainesville several times.

Exactly: divers need to educate themselves. Divers need to be willing to take the time to perfect their education, which means learning and knowing thoroughly the course material, and searching out answers on the internet. You then ask questions, and avoid being a stupid person or a stupid question asker. Couldn't have said it better myself!

Gotta be careful diving in Gainesville....the cave bug will bite you!When Eddym67 says "Educate Yourself", I think he means that asking questions is a form of educating yourself. I don't think his intention was for someone to reread the course material, research it on the internet, or use the search function that rarely gives you a good match without throwing in many other non-relevant threads, and THEN ask questions. He points out that there are no stupid questions, only stupid people. And stupid people are the ones that think they know everything without asking questions.

This is a forum that's here to exchange information. So what if it's been asked 100 times, or seems elementary, it's new to that person. Based on your comments people should have to pass a test just to join this forum. There isn't an active forum out there that doesn't have multiple questions on the same topic. What's wrong with helping people learn without being condescending and mean? That's how you make friends, and dive buddies. :)

aiseson
06-26-2008, 11:36
The best experience is just diving, I'd rather be an OW diver with 500 dive then a DM with 50 and most are the cert dives he had to do....

JahJahwarrior
06-26-2008, 13:43
When Eddym67 says "Educate Yourself", I think he means that asking questions is a form of educating yourself.

Based on your comments people should have to pass a test just to join this forum.

There isn't an active forum out there that doesn't have multiple questions on the same topic.

What's wrong with helping people learn without being condescending and mean? )

That is what he meant, I twisted the meaning to show that I believe that it is good (not necessary, but good: it shows maturity and responsibility) to attempt to educate yourself before posting.

People shouldn't have to pass a test to join a forum. But not every post is a good post. Every active forum probably already has several threads about most topics, so I believe it is good to go find them and read them first. You'll learn what people have said and thought about on that topic for several years, rather than just what they are thinking at the moment, and you can make a much more informed decision about your diving.

I'm not condescending or mean. I haven't called anyone stupid, all I have done is say that I think some people are stupid :) And I do believe if you search through my post history, you will find that I take the time to answer questions which I do know the answer to, though sometimes my answer will be links to other threads.

thesmoothdome
06-26-2008, 13:46
Shrug. Same arguments. Time to give this a rest. Who really cares if the question has meaning to you? If you feel like answering, by all means do. If you don't move on.

Draq
06-26-2008, 13:49
"I don't agree sometimes people tend to forget thats why they have refresher courses. Who determines if the question is sophisticated? For all you newbies out there feel free to ask me anytime and probably many other more experienced divers on this forum would not mind. When I first became OW certified I asked many questions that may obvious now but not at the time. Again what the hell is sophisticated got to do with it!!!

In answer to your question do not use a bicycle pump to add air to your tank especially considering many tanks can handle as much as 3,500 PSI and I doubt you could pump even 100 psi.[/quote]"

I was being facetious. I don't own a tank and if I did I would pay $5.00 to have it filled. I think people should post whatever comments and questions they have. I have n problem with beginner questions. If I don't find a question or comment interesting, I don't have to read it.

I can't seem to get the quote feature to work for me right now, so I'll just use quotations for the original comment to which I am responding.

BSea
06-26-2008, 15:00
When Eddym67 says "Educate Yourself", I think he means that asking questions is a form of educating yourself.

Based on your comments people should have to pass a test just to join this forum.

There isn't an active forum out there that doesn't have multiple questions on the same topic.

What's wrong with helping people learn without being condescending and mean? )

That is what he meant, I twisted the meaning to show that I believe that it is good (not necessary, but good: it shows maturity and responsibility) to attempt to educate yourself before posting.

People shouldn't have to pass a test to join a forum. But not every post is a good post. Every active forum probably already has several threads about most topics, so I believe it is good to go find them and read them first. You'll learn what people have said and thought about on that topic for several years, rather than just what they are thinking at the moment, and you can make a much more informed decision about your diving.

I'm not condescending or mean. I haven't called anyone stupid, all I have done is say that I think some people are stupid :) And I do believe if you search through my post history, you will find that I take the time to answer questions which I do know the answer to, though sometimes my answer will be links to other threads.I know it sounded as if I was saying YOU can be condescending & mean, but it wasn't pointed at you directly. I apologize for way it came across. Actually it was pointed more at people thinking that questions that they determine are "STUPID" should be answered with ridicule & rudeness. The only place I disagree with you is where you think people should research before asking a question.

I've read many of your post, and you haven't been rude or mean directly to anyone that I've noticed. Plus, you have posted a lot of good information. And I agree that posting links to a previous discussion is a good way to get information across. Especially if it was lengthy. I do it too.

JahJahwarrior
06-26-2008, 16:32
I know it sounded as if I was saying YOU can be condescending & mean, but it wasn't pointed at you directly. I apologize for way it came across. Actually it was pointed more at people thinking that questions that they determine are "STUPID" should be answered with ridicule & rudeness. The only place I disagree with you is where you think people should research before asking a question.

I've read many of your post, and you haven't been rude or mean directly to anyone that I've noticed. Plus, you have posted a lot of good information. And I agree that posting links to a previous discussion is a good way to get information across. Especially if it was lengthy. I do it too.

It's all good--I've read lots of your posts and have a good deal of respect for you.

Let me put it this way: there are two good instructors who I see regularly at the dive shop where I work. One of them is a very laid back guy who will go to great lengths to help you dive. The other is an extremely good instructor who will also go to great lengths to help you dive. But if you are more than 15 minutes late for class, he goes home and you are out the money for that day of class. And, if you call and apologize and work out a plan to start class a day late and just pay more for another extra day of class, and are more than 5 minutes late the next morning, you are just out of luck. And he won't hesitate to flunk you if you aren't good enough. He turns out great students, and those who pass love the guy. Which is the better instructor? :)

I still think people should take a few minutes to use the search button. I don't think people should be ridiculed for not doing it, nor do I think I should earn anyone's hatred for posting "use the search button, we just had a great thread about this and you should read it." (I don't always have time to go dig up links, people should be able to do some of that themselves :) )

buddhasummer
06-26-2008, 20:48
I think I understand what the OP was saying and in part I can see the OPs point but I dont think its a very helpful way to solve the problem. Different people learn in diff ways and by diff means, I dont think it matters how people get the information they need as long as they get it. The fact that they are asking the question means that they are obviously giving it some thought which is a good thing. The reasosns people have for asking questions are as varied Im sure as the questions themselves. If you dont like the question for what ever reason then simply roll on by and let one of the many kind and patient people on this board answer, no harm eh and if youve got nothing helpful to say/add then again roll on by. If you have the knowledge/experience and time to answer the question then why not answer it? to decide, (Who watches the watchmen?) that the question should not be answered because someone deems it stupid/elementary/in the manual etc seems a little mean spirited.

mm2002
06-30-2008, 08:36
My opinion is that in most activities, not everything is done BY THE BOOK. I see a lot of that in scuba too. I do know that I had trouble with weighting and buoyancy, even though the PADI manual thoroughly explains it. I've got it nailed now, but not because of what I read in the PADI manual, but because I wasn't afraid to ask some "stupid" questions on this forum. There are other examples I could give, but that's one that comes to mind. I say if you don't thoroughly understand something, or would like to hear other opinions, ask away. Then again, I don't like books, and I never have.

What about my recent thread on visibility? Do you suppose that was REALLY a question, or maybe just a post to provoke thought and conversation? I do that sometimes.

Defman
07-03-2008, 08:06
A recent occurrence to a co-worker got me thinking about this thread... She was on a kayaking trip with a friend in Oregon recently, got flipped and the friend didn't make it out.

I know diving is potentially dangerous but I never really thought about the fact that compared to most of my co-workers there is a higher than normal chance that I won't come back from vacation. Kind of sobering.

MConnelly2
07-03-2008, 20:40
I can see the OP's point, but I wonder if we would not be doing a greater disservice to the person with a potentially important question (here I ask you to revert to the OP's point about potential death - that could ruin the entire dive) by making them hesitate or refuse to ask that question, than their instructor did by not ensuring they already had the answer?

I can think of a handful of things that I had to check into after I was certified that I'm sure the instructor covered, and I simply didn't retain well enough. None that were serious to me (read potentially hazardous), but whats to say the next guys issue isn't?