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Sasha_K
06-16-2008, 15:52
This could easily go into newbie section too, but may as well fire it in here.

Can someone explain me the difference, or the meaning of 'oxygen' fill below and 'hyper air'. Do they mix the two when they fill up your tank or what?
If so, how much would it cost to get a 'regular' fill of AL 80 tank?


Custom Mixes, Top Ups, or Different Volume Tanks are calculated by the cubic foot based on the following pricing:
Oxygen (per cubic foot)$0.60Helium (per cubic foot)$1.20Hyper Air (per cubic foot)$0.10

CompuDude
06-16-2008, 16:04
Hyper-filtered air is regular air (approx 21% o2, 79% nitrogen) that has been filtered to an extremely clean state, and as such will not contaminate an Oxygen-cleaned tank. (A tank that has been cleaned to withstand filling with pure oxygen).

It's not necessary to use hyperfiltered air unless you want to dive a plain air percentage (21%) in a tank that usually kept o2 clean for use with Nitrox (via the partial-pressure blending method). Once you are Nitrox certified, this should all be taught to you.

Cost would depend on how much air is already in your tank... that's the advantage (and sometimes disadvantage) of selling the fills by the cubic foot.

A HP100 tank that holds 100 cf of gas needs 100 cf of gas fill to fill it up. Unless you have some air in it already, say 500 psi. Then you'd have to do the math (or consult a chart) to see that 500psi in an HP100 = 15 cf already in there, so you only need 85 cf to fill it back full.

For a regular Al.80, they actually only hold 77.4 cf at 3000 psi, so that's what you would use for your calculations.

mike_s
06-16-2008, 16:07
oxygen is just that... you're buying oxygen. pure o2. for filling to a certain percentage for deco purposes. example, you fill a tank 50% 02. You'd start off with a 3000psi tank emptying it, filling it to 1500psi with o2, then topping off with o2 clean air. (aka as hyper air).

Of you can buy any nitrox blend as a custom mix, but you pay for the percentage (by cubic foot) of o2 used, and clean-air used.

or you just buy an o2 clean air fill of 'hyper air'. a AL80 that is completely empty would run you $7.70 for a fill at the above rates. a little less for a tank that still has say 500psi in it.


So Hyper air is just air that has been filtered enough to make it Grade E modified typically, or o2 clean air, suitable for mixing with pure clean 100% o2.


EDIT: Looks like CompuDude and I were typing at about the same time and I just replied after him, but we are both pretty much saying the same thing about the hyper air.

Sasha_K
06-16-2008, 16:20
Thanks guys. That's what I assumed, but wanted to verify and not look silly in the store :-) .

CompuDude
06-16-2008, 16:24
example, you fill a tank 50% 02. You'd start off with a 3000psi tank emptying it, filling it to 1500psi with o2, then topping off with o2 clean air. (aka as hyper air).

You want to try that one again, Mike? ;)

(there's an extra 21% of o2 in that hyperfiltered air that I think you forgot about!)

It does illustrate the basic point, however.

CompuDude
06-16-2008, 16:29
Custom Mixes, Top Ups, or Different Volume Tanks are calculated by the cubic foot based on the following pricing:
Oxygen (per cubic foot)$0.60Helium (per cubic foot)$1.20Hyper Air (per cubic foot)$0.10

I forgot to mention this:

If you are just planning to dive plain air in an Al.80, and won't be using it for Nitrox, I would recommend looking for another shop for your fills. At 10 cents per cf, filling an Al.80 costs $7.74... fairly pricey for a simple air fill.

On the other hand, if you're doing lots of cave diving, cost per cf plans make a lot of sense, since most dives only use 1/3 of the gas in your tank. (1/3 of Al.80 is about 26 cf, so costs only $2.60 to get your tank full again, or $5.20 for doubles, which is a very good price) Even better if you're diving sixths.

mike_s
06-16-2008, 17:51
example, you fill a tank 50% 02. You'd start off with a 3000psi tank emptying it, filling it to 1500psi with o2, then topping off with o2 clean air. (aka as hyper air).

You want to try that one again, Mike? ;)

(there's an extra 21% of o2 in that hyperfiltered air that I think you forgot about!)

It does illustrate the basic point, however.


heh...wtf was I thinking... :smilie39:

:D

diver-wife
06-16-2008, 19:33
example, you fill a tank 50% 02. You'd start off with a 3000psi tank emptying it, filling it to 1500psi with o2, then topping off with o2 clean air. (aka as hyper air).

You want to try that one again, Mike? ;)

(there's an extra 21% of o2 in that hyperfiltered air that I think you forgot about!)

It does illustrate the basic point, however.
you beat me to it, I am not blending expert but that would be a final of 60.5% o2, right?

cummings66
06-16-2008, 19:46
That's why they use computer programs to do the math, makes for less error.

harb99
06-16-2008, 20:06
If you are just planning to dive plain air in an Al.80, and won't be using it for Nitrox, I would recommend looking for another shop for your fills. At 10 cents per cf, filling an Al.80 costs $7.74... fairly pricey for a simple air fill.

what is the going rate for fills in your area? the local quarry charges $7/air fill and $15/nitrox fill up to 36% - not sure how they handle larger tanks as I do not have any and have therefore never had a larger one filled there.

in_cavediver
06-16-2008, 20:19
That's why they use computer programs to do the math, makes for less error.

Yes but then you get Garbage In -> Garbage Out problems.

I like the idea of understanding the math and knowing when it just ain't right.

CompuDude
06-16-2008, 23:11
If you are just planning to dive plain air in an Al.80, and won't be using it for Nitrox, I would recommend looking for another shop for your fills. At 10 cents per cf, filling an Al.80 costs $7.74... fairly pricey for a simple air fill.

what is the going rate for fills in your area? the local quarry charges $7/air fill and $15/nitrox fill up to 36% - not sure how they handle larger tanks as I do not have any and have therefore never had a larger one filled there.

The most expensive places I know charge $6/tank for plain air (not hyperfiltered). I think it's also about $6/tank at the one place I know that sels hyperfiltered air.

The average cost, however, is just under $5/fill. The cheapest place I know is about $2/fill.

Nitrox costs between $8-10/tank for anything 21-40%.

I'm not aware of any shops charging different rates for bigger tanks.

harb99
06-17-2008, 08:23
If you are just planning to dive plain air in an Al.80, and won't be using it for Nitrox, I would recommend looking for another shop for your fills. At 10 cents per cf, filling an Al.80 costs $7.74... fairly pricey for a simple air fill.

what is the going rate for fills in your area? the local quarry charges $7/air fill and $15/nitrox fill up to 36% - not sure how they handle larger tanks as I do not have any and have therefore never had a larger one filled there.

The most expensive places I know charge $6/tank for plain air (not hyperfiltered). I think it's also about $6/tank at the one place I know that sels hyperfiltered air.

The average cost, however, is just under $5/fill. The cheapest place I know is about $2/fill.

Nitrox costs between $8-10/tank for anything 21-40%.

I'm not aware of any shops charging different rates for bigger tanks.

thanks - the air we get at the quarry is hyperfiltered b/c they use it in their nitrox mix also - price difference is probably based on location - higher demand and more competition where you are versus here in the midwest :)

Grin
06-17-2008, 08:34
I pay $7 a fill for any mix of NITROX I desire, and any size tank. I buy 30 fill cards to get that price. I think 20 fill cards are $8 a fill, and if you walk in for a couple fills it is close to $10 a fill. Most shops are pretty close to this in my area. I have not bought a air fill in a long time and have no idea what they cost.
Some of my buddies buy cf of Nitrox and do it that way. My shop is a partial pressure fill, so every fill starts with emptying the tank.

skdvr
06-17-2008, 11:10
If you are just planning to dive plain air in an Al.80, and won't be using it for Nitrox, I would recommend looking for another shop for your fills. At 10 cents per cf, filling an Al.80 costs $7.74... fairly pricey for a simple air fill.

what is the going rate for fills in your area? the local quarry charges $7/air fill and $15/nitrox fill up to 36% - not sure how they handle larger tanks as I do not have any and have therefore never had a larger one filled there.


$4 for air fills up here.... Down near you they can get away with charging more because you are already at the quarry and cannot go anywhere else for air. NITROX fills up here $12 for up to 50%.

Phil

skdvr
06-17-2008, 11:13
My shop is a partial pressure fill, so every fill starts with emptying the tank.

There is really no reason to empty the tank, unless they are unsure of the air quality that is in the tank. Obviously you have to have enough room to get the desired mix, and your O2 tanks would have to have enough pressure to fill above what ever the current pressure is in the tank.

Phil

MSilvia
06-17-2008, 12:07
I'm used to paying $7/$15 for air/nitrox fills, but there's a shop near work that does air fills for free.

mjcoyne
06-17-2008, 13:08
I actually live about 5 minutes away from a place that gives air fills for free...I think it may be the same place that MSilvia is talking about....its PG Dive in Newton....a great place and you have to love the free air....in regards to Nitrox though I have no idea because I just started diving 2 months ago and have not headed down that road (just yet)

MSilvia
06-17-2008, 14:24
Yeah... You can't beat PG Dive for air fills. Their cookouts and homebrew are pretty good too!

mike_s
06-17-2008, 14:44
example, you fill a tank 50% 02. You'd start off with a 3000psi tank emptying it, filling it to 1500psi with o2, then topping off with o2 clean air. (aka as hyper air).

You want to try that one again, Mike? ;)

(there's an extra 21% of o2 in that hyperfiltered air that I think you forgot about!)

It does illustrate the basic point, however.
you beat me to it, I am not blending expert but that would be a final of 60.5% o2, right?

yep... 60.5% is right.

for 50% final mix., you'd want to fill your empty 3000psi cylinder to about 1100psi of pure 100% O2, then top off with 21% o2 clean air.

blewgrass
06-17-2008, 18:33
I can get a dive card from a local shop for $29. 10 fills. That's the cheapest I've found yet.

Steve

in_cavediver
06-17-2008, 18:55
I can get a dive card from a local shop for $29. 10 fills. That's the cheapest I've found yet.

Steve

Well, I get unlimited air for free, whenever I want. (something about having the key to the fire station and access to the compressor/banks which is setup to support a dive team as well as SCBA usage)

Still, $2.90/fill is a good price for air.

skdvr
06-18-2008, 07:22
I can get a dive card from a local shop for $29. 10 fills. That's the cheapest I've found yet.

Steve

Yeah, I bought somethign similar from mine.

$50 for unlimited air for a year

or

$150 for unlimited NITROX for a year.

I purchased the air card, but I think that next year I will get the NITROX card. Well maybe. With my wife being pregnant, I guess I will have to try to figure out how much diving I will be able to do next year.:smiley29:

Phil

diver-wife
06-18-2008, 09:28
I can get a dive card from a local shop for $29. 10 fills. That's the cheapest I've found yet.

Steve

With my wife being pregnant, I guess I will have to try to figure out how much diving I will be able to do next year.:smiley29:

Phil

congrats (if it is yours) if not, I am sorry just kidding

TravisD
06-19-2008, 17:45
Around here, $8-12/thank for a HP Air fill seems to be the norm. Still too much of a hoover to consider diving Nitrox :)

bubbletrubble
06-19-2008, 19:20
Yeah, I bought somethign similar from mine.

$50 for unlimited air for a year

or

$150 for unlimited NITROX for a year.

I purchased the air card, but I think that next year I will get the NITROX card. Well maybe. With my wife being pregnant, I guess I will have to try to figure out how much diving I will be able to do next year.:smiley29:

Phil


That is an insanely good deal for one year of unlimited nitrox. It's not unheard of to pay $9 - $10 per fill for 32% nitrox in my neck of the woods.

skdvr
06-19-2008, 21:01
Yeah, I bought somethign similar from mine.

$50 for unlimited air for a year

or

$150 for unlimited NITROX for a year.

I purchased the air card, but I think that next year I will get the NITROX card. Well maybe. With my wife being pregnant, I guess I will have to try to figure out how much diving I will be able to do next year.:smiley29:

Phil


That is an insanely good deal for one year of unlimited nitrox. It's not unheard of to pay $9 - $10 per fill for 32% nitrox in my neck of the woods.

Yeah, at the same LDS it is $12 for up to 50%. So I think I am buying that next year... Pretty good deal, if you are diving locally enough to get your fills there. Luckly I have enough tanks to last me for a 1 or 2 day trip to a quarry and then just bring all the empty tanks back home for a fill..

Phil

skdvr
06-19-2008, 21:02
I can get a dive card from a local shop for $29. 10 fills. That's the cheapest I've found yet.

Steve

With my wife being pregnant, I guess I will have to try to figure out how much diving I will be able to do next year.:smiley29:

Phil

congrats (if it is yours) if not, I am sorry just kidding

Does that mean I do not have to pay if they (twins) are not mine?!?!?!?!?

chris in the socal
06-19-2008, 21:23
At my dive shop it is only $3 for a fill size doese not matter.