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maverick
06-24-2008, 18:26
I recently became offended by another diver, who by the way is going for his DM this upcomming weekend. I being a handicapped diver am having difficulty with my new 5M wetsuit getting the bouyancy down perfect. The second time in the suit I was given a new nick-name in jest. Now it is getting irritating. I would have appreciated being given some assistance getting the bouyancy under control instead of being badgered about it. It was not and is not my intention to aggrivate anyone I dive with, but when you see a person needs a little assistance to make a better diver LEND A HAND! I was told "Being positive helps me stay horizontal and not silt out my buddies behind me," instead of showing me how to get better bouyancy so that I would not do this again. Now is this DM material and/or protocol?

bubbletrubble
06-24-2008, 18:38
maverick,

Mean people suck.

Signed,
Goose

bubbletrubble
06-24-2008, 18:46
Just kidding, Maverick.

The DM candidate could have been more helpful. I'm sure that he wasn't trying to offend you (but you never know). His comments about achieving good horizontal trim are not that helpful. It may take some time and patience to optimize trim (especially with new gear). The trick is to simply redistribute your weight until you get it right. Even one pound can make a real difference. Many divers suffer from feet-low trim. Combined with a flutter kick which can disrupt silt several feet below, it's very difficult to avoid silting out the place. It can make a diver look like Pig Pen (Peanuts/Charlie Brown character) under water! :-)

Hang in there. With a little perseverance, you'll get your trim dialed in.

A couple more points:
- "Being positive" never helps you stay horizontal. For the purposes of trim optimization, one should aim to be neutrally buoyant. Positive buoyancy will send you up in the water column.
- Once you optimize your trim, you may want to try a frog kick. There will be less force directed in a downward direction as compared to the flutter kick; thus, you will be less likely to inadvertently silt out the place. A side benefit of the frog kick is that during the glide phase, you'll really see if you're neutrally buoyant and whether you have good horizontal trim.

Have fun and dive safe.

BuzzF117
06-24-2008, 18:50
Unfortunatley you run into dillhole's in every "sport" Id let the LDS that this guy works for know about his actions especially when a diver can spend thousands of $$ at the drop of a hat and if they want some of that $$ there customer service had better be top knotch. Or you could wait till this guy is in a OOA situation then right a little knickname for him on your dive slate, im thinking something along the lines of chum or turtle bait then smile and swim away. I would want to dive with somebody like that who is training to be a DM

bubbletrubble
06-24-2008, 19:11
Unfortunatley you run into dillhole's in every "sport" Id let the LDS that this guy works for know about his actions especially when a diver can spend thousands of $$ at the drop of a hat and if they want some of that $$ there customer service had better be top knotch. Or you could wait till this guy is in a OOA situation then right a little knickname for him on your dive slate, im thinking something along the lines of chum or turtle bait then smile and swim away. I would want to dive with somebody like that who is training to be a DM
These courses of action may be a little extreme. I think it would be helpful to know more about the incident.
Were you taking a class and he was a DM-in-training? If this were the case, then perhaps a little discussion with the instructor would have been in order. A DM-in-training gets feedback about his people skills.
Was this guy your dive buddy? Don't buddy up with him next time.
Or did you just happen to be diving off of the same boat with him?
Knowing what we know, I'd say give the guy a break. He was probably just being a little insecure and showing off for his friends within earshot. Life's too short. Get out there and dive. :-)

maverick
06-24-2008, 19:15
Thanks 4 the vote of confidence.

Vercingetorix
06-24-2008, 20:33
Concerning being trim, Larry gave the best advice which helped me finally understand what true horizontal trim is.

He said: when you're swimming, tuck your chin to your chest. Do you see the bottom or do you see water behind you? If you see the bottom, then you're at an angle and not horizontally trim. Get those feet up until you see water. Once you're trim, then lift your head back to the swimming position.

His advice made all the difference to me and improved my SAC rate as well, because I was now more streamlined; therefore, less resistance.

matt151617
06-24-2008, 20:40
If he's a divemaster-to-be, then he should be able to work with students efficiently, not making fun of them. And it should be his job to help you out, regardless of the situation. Tell him to get bent (is diving where this term came from????).

navyhmc
06-24-2008, 21:34
For starters, what is your handicap? This in and of itself is a place to start. Also, what was his nick name for you?

As for dialing in your bouyancy, sometimes this takes a while. My best suggestion is to get a tank with around 700 in it and get your normal rig on and have a little help in the shallows to dial it in. The best way is to start with a few pounds light and have a buddy start handing you weights starting with 5 lbs, and see if you sink with a full lung. If you do, go with 4 pounds, then 3. If 5 wasn't enough, go the other way. once you're pretty close to neutral with a full lung, add a pound and you should be good to go. This method has worked for me for 30(+) years of diving.

As for the nick name: Is it demeaning to you? If so, I would recommend goign to the DM and informing him of your distaste at his attempt at humor and request that he stop. This is not how divers should act. Yes, I know a few folks that got a nickname as a result of doing something, but it is in fun and if they didn't like it, I would stop. This is not thrid grade here. This is a sport and we should respect each other-bottom line.

If he doesn't stop or responds in a negative way, I would go up the chain so to speak to get it resolved. I would also make the request that if he is the DM on a dive your on that you request a different DM.

And, let me know, I'll be proud to dive with you.

crosseyed95
06-24-2008, 21:54
Just kidding, Maverick.

The DM candidate could have been more helpful. I'm sure that he wasn't trying to offend you (but you never know). His comments about achieving good horizontal trim are not that helpful. It may take some time and patience to optimize trim (especially with new gear). The trick is to simply redistribute your weight until you get it right. Even one pound can make a real difference. Many divers suffer from feet-low trim. Combined with a flutter kick which can disrupt silt several feet below, it's very difficult to avoid silting out the place. It can make a diver look like Pig Pen (Peanuts/Charlie Brown character) under water! :-)

Hang in there. With a little perseverance, you'll get your trim dialed in.

A couple more points:
- "Being positive" never helps you stay horizontal. For the purposes of trim optimization, one should aim to be neutrally buoyant. Positive buoyancy will send you up in the water column.
- Once you optimize your trim, you may want to try a frog kick. There will be less force directed in a downward direction as compared to the flutter kick; thus, you will be less likely to inadvertently silt out the place. A side benefit of the frog kick is that during the glide phase, you'll really see if you're neutrally buoyant and whether you have good horizontal trim.

Have fun and dive safe.

The above response is very good and I'd take the advice.

Maverick - I'm an active DM. Without knowing all the specifics, I can only give a couple points. A DM in training (or not in training but talking about it with his LDS) should have been given many lectures. You are a DM even when not getting paid and are representing your LDS at all times. This is why you'll see posts from those who are excellent divers but have chosen to not take the step into being a professional (nothing wrong with that choice by the way).

I've been in similiar situations and I have a several choices.

1. Offer advice after the dive and send them on their way.
2. Tell them that I'll go out and dive with them and help out. My normal benefits with the LDS would kick in since when I do this I'm on the clock. My LDS offers this free to divers since they make up for it with customer loyalty and equipment purchases. Some LDS's charge customers for this.
3. Explain to them that they can take a peak buoancy class and try to get them interested in it. If yes, I refer them to the instructor. Many bash PADI for all their money making classes but this is why they are offered and they do help those who are willing to pay for the training.

If the DM in training was rude, it's one of those things in life and you should just overlook it. Go into any store and you'll find a couple rude employees, a couple average and a couple great ones. Ignore the rude, put up with the average and tip the great ones.

Not much help but I just wanted to give a couple points. Plus the wife is watching a "woman's show" so I'm stuck on the computer:smiley11:.

Good luck, listen to bubbletrubble and have fun.

crosseyed95

maverick
06-25-2008, 01:41
Yeah thank U 4 the help on the bouyancy.This was only the second time that I wore this new 5 mil suit. I almost had my bouyancy dialed in but was a little over weighted. I had a hip replaced. No big deal.

bubbletrubble
06-25-2008, 03:30
Yeah thank U 4 the help on the bouyancy.This was only the second time that I wore this new 5 mil suit. I almost had my bouyancy dialed in but was a little over weighted. I had a hip replaced. No big deal.
I think it's great that you're getting out there and diving post-hip replacement. What a fun way to get some exercise! After your buoyancy and trim are sorted out with the new wetsuit, it might be worthwhile to try the frog kick. Go easy on it, though. If you haven't regained full range of motion at the hip, the frog might not be a very efficient kick for you. And, of course, if you experience any pain at all, you should definitely go back to your normal kick.
Have fun...

navyhmc
06-25-2008, 10:27
With a recent hip replacement, the frog kick may be out as it has that outward hip motion that the PT's don't want you to do. And that 2lbs of titanium may cause a little problem, but not much.

So, go give that DM wanna be a kick in the ass and hit the water!

maverick
06-25-2008, 10:39
Yeah I'll give him a boot right up his fish butt.

navyhmc
06-25-2008, 12:38
But you haven't said what the nick name he is trying to give is...


Inquiring minds want to know....:D

caroln
06-25-2008, 12:39
I'm a DMC as well, and it is drilled into our heads from day 1 that our actions reflect on the shop because as a pro in training, we are representatives of the shop in the students eyes.

That being said, anyone can tell you what you are doing wrong, the real skill is in not just telling you what to do to get it right, but HOW to do it. One of the instruuctors I work with is absolutely the best at this that I have seen in any discipline (diving or otherwise), but not everyone has that ability.

Your DMC is a leader to you, but remember that he's also trying to learn to be a dive leader. He will certainly make mistakes along the way, which I would guess is the case in the way he handled things with you. If he's not a total dink, having a quiet word with him when it's just the two of you could really help him be a more effective leader in the future, and for you, help him to work with you in a way you find less insulting and more useful.

ReefHound
06-25-2008, 12:51
Your DMC is a leader to you, but remember that he's also trying to learn to be a dive leader. He will certainly make mistakes along the way, which I would guess is the case in the way he handled things with you. If he's not a total dink, having a quiet word with him when it's just the two of you could really help him be a more effective leader in the future, and for you, help him to work with you in a way you find less insulting and more useful.

The story is far too vague to make any assumptions. We don't even know if he's a DMC. Maybe "going for" his DM next week means he is about to start a DM class? We don't know the situation, what kind of dive, who was diving, this "DM's" responsibility or role, what the alleged nickname was, the demeanor of the parties involved, etc.

BSea
06-25-2008, 12:59
Your DMC is a leader to you, but remember that he's also trying to learn to be a dive leader. He will certainly make mistakes along the way, which I would guess is the case in the way he handled things with you. If he's not a total dink, having a quiet word with him when it's just the two of you could really help him be a more effective leader in the future, and for you, help him to work with you in a way you find less insulting and more useful.

The story is far too vague to make any assumptions. We don't even know if he's a DMC. Maybe "going for" his DM next week means he is about to start a DM class? We don't know the situation, what kind of dive, who was diving, this "DM's" responsibility or role, what the alleged nickname was, the demeanor of the parties involved, etc.Does it really matter what his title is? Regardless if he was a DM, want-to-be DM, Instructor, other student, or even the boat captain, he/she doesn't have the right to belittle someone. Yeah buddies do this in good fun, but this didn't appear to be the case here.

ReefHound
06-25-2008, 14:21
His title matters in the sense that it lets us know if he has or has not had leadership training.

We don't know what the case is here or the atmosphere or attitude or tone in which this (still unknown) alleged nickname was said. I'd be curious to hear the other guy's version of the story.

bubbletrubble
06-25-2008, 15:55
I agree with Reefhound. I requested more details about the incident early on in the thread, but none have been provided as of yet. IMHO, there isn't enough info to assess the insult factor of the DM's words.

FWIW, I know a lot of instructors and DMs who "turn off" the professional switch to a certain extent when they do fun dives. Although I have never seen any of them publicly berate other divers for less-than-perfect dive skills, some of them have a "punchy" sense of humor that I could see, under the right circumstances, someone taking offense to.

That being said, the situation as described by the OP paints the picture of an insecure young man who got a little too cavalier with his words. I think it's great that the OP has made a comeback from hip surgery to participate in diving once again. He should be congratulated and encouraged.

caroln
06-25-2008, 16:20
The story is far too vague to make any assumptions. We don't even know if he's a DMC. Maybe "going for" his DM next week means he is about to start a DM class? We don't know the situation, what kind of dive, who was diving, this "DM's" responsibility or role, what the alleged nickname was, the demeanor of the parties involved, etc.


That is true. I was assuming the going for DM implied that he's in the process of working towards it. Since I'm in the process too, and working with other people who are, we all really want to do this right, and be good at it, and do something good with it. No one I know is doing it so they can beat up on other divers and make them feel like crap. Going on the assumption that the guy is working on becoming a DM, and is trying in help in some way and not just being an a$$ for the fun of it, I would say a chat would be the best way of resolving any bad feelings and hopefully both of them getting something good out of their interaction. If he's just a guy with an oversized ego making himself feel better by putting Maverick down, well then my advice would be completely off base.

Soonerwink
06-25-2008, 17:41
Unfortunatley you run into dillhole's in every "sport" Id let the LDS that this guy works for know about his actions especially when a diver can spend thousands of $$ at the drop of a hat and if they want some of that $$ there customer service had better be top knotch. Or you could wait till this guy is in a OOA situation then right a little knickname for him on your dive slate, im thinking something along the lines of chum or turtle bait then smile and swim away. I would want to dive with somebody like that who is training to be a DM
These courses of action may be a little extreme. I think it would be helpful to know more about the incident.
Were you taking a class and he was a DM-in-training? If this were the case, then perhaps a little discussion with the instructor would have been in order. A DM-in-training gets feedback about his people skills.
Was this guy your dive buddy? Don't buddy up with him next time.
Or did you just happen to be diving off of the same boat with him?
Knowing what we know, I'd say give the guy a break. He was probably just being a little insecure and showing off for his friends within earshot. Life's too short. Get out there and dive. :-)
I am the person that Maverick is wrongly accusing. The dive that he is talking about was at Oronogo. This is the first time I ever met Maverick. He led us to believe that he was an experienced diver, never mentioned any kind of handicap or new equipment. He was not my dive buddy but he was with our group. I was not a DM at that time, this was several months ago. I am going through my DM training now though. Several of the divers that were present did mention that he may have to much weight on. I don't know if he removed any, but his second dive was better. I never said that he silted his buddies out. On another thread about fins I made a post that where I said I prefer positive fins that it helps me stay horizontal where I won't silt out my buddies behind me. This was no reference to his diving but my own. The only thing that I can think of that got him upset is out of fun our organizer of our dive club did give him the nickname of silk kicker. I have asked him to remove the nickname. I didn't realize this is a sensitive area to Maverick. I wish to extend an apology to Maverick for offending him. I never knew about your handicap until I read it in your previos post. A little communication can solve a lot.

maverick
06-25-2008, 18:34
Sooner, It is right there in my club profile dated January 08 that I was new 2 diving and I also mentioned I was handicapped. What R U saying????? This was 2 all club members. I more than communicated 2 all, including the Future DM.

Soonerwink
06-25-2008, 18:42
I never read your profile. I checked and it is there. Sorry I missed it. I have offered an apology here and by email and sent you my phone number. I don't know what else you want from me. But I am not going to argue the point any longer. It seems you can't get past this.

ReefHound
06-25-2008, 19:14
I'll have to remember that when diving with new people, even just for fun, that it is apparently my responsibility as a DM to have researched their background, checked their profile, read their forum posts, noted their medical history, and even ascertained the purchase date of their equipment.

maverick
06-25-2008, 19:17
Apology accepted episode ended. Lets dive and pay attention 2 others.

maverick
06-25-2008, 19:22
This discussion is ENDED and thank U all 4 your input

bubbletrubble
06-25-2008, 20:37
After the debris from the "explosion" settles, Bubbletrubble looks outside of his hole. He sees a ray of sunlight breaking through the ominous clouds -- some hope in the face of darkness. Soonerwink apologized in Post #22, and Maverick accepted that apology in Post #26. The whole incident can be chalked up to a misunderstanding.

Good luck to both of you guys. I hope that when you see each other at the next club dive...Don King won't be promoting the event. :fight:
Maybe y'all can laugh about it over a couple of beers. :fulle:

FWIW, I agree that positively buoyant fins can help a diver keep his fins off the bottom and could help improve the diver's horizontal trim (if he was previously feet-low).

Have fun and dive safe.