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View Full Version : I got kicked out of my "other" LDS



Rileybri
07-02-2008, 15:51
And its all Scubatoys fault! I have two dive shops in my area. One I have had fairly positive experiences with and got my NAUI OW from them. The other is about five miles up the lake from me. Having never been in and now having a good reason to stop in I did so. I just wanted to look around and see what they had and made that clear from the get go. First off I had a ramora like shop rat following me around like I was going to stuff a steal 110 in my pocket. Then every two minutes I get oh you want to buy this, you got to have that. I tell him there are only two things I am in the market for right now. first is a BP/W set up and the other is two ST 72's and as you dont have either of them you are SOL. I know I had just opened up a whole can of worms with that comment but what the hell why not right? Oh no you dont want a BP/W you want this and he grabbed out a gadgetifyed rear inflate sea quest BCD. My reply was the only rear inflate wing I am interested in is a Zeagle and once again you dont carry them so Oh well. Well this got them going on the "Grey Market" rant and yes scubatoys is killing diving! Yes they actually said scubatoys is killing diving! Well I made the mistake of standing up for ST to which the big guy behind the counter (who had been listening in) promptly hauled his super sized ass out of his barka lounger to say to me "if you dont get your internet buying, stupid ass self out of my dive shop, I will throw you out!" WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for nothing bung wholes! Victory Sports in Colchester VT SUCKS NARCOSIS!!!!!

Rainer
07-02-2008, 15:56
Oh, you'll have a good time when you show back up for their going out of business sale. I'd say you probably can hardly wait, but then, it doesn't sound like it'll be too long...

Geoff_T
07-02-2008, 16:05
Did'nt anybody teach these guys that when you openly badmouth your competition it looks bad. Also at some point here they cross into lible It is alerdy slander but if they are telling everybody this it is lible. It is open and shut lible if they mention st or zegale in that way in any of their newsletters. Ooh and by the way last I checked ST was an authorised zegale retailor whits makes them not grey market.

I am sick and tierd of ignorant people who insist that every brand they don't carry is grey market and every other shop is a grey market dealer.

Grizbear98
07-02-2008, 16:06
I don't get why some sales people think that insulting the customer, and trying to make them think that they don't want what they really want helps them make a sale. Heh good riddance to them.

bassplayer
07-02-2008, 16:06
Does anyone in business these days....study how to run a business?

WetHog
07-02-2008, 16:10
But all their prices look so reasonable. $325 for Open Water with an asterick that it does not include the gear you must buy in their shop (or another professionaly shop) but I bet any other LDS' gear will not measure up to their standards.

Let us know when there going our of business sale starts:smiley20:

Ryanh1801
07-02-2008, 16:19
Does anyone in business these days....study how to run a business?

Doesn't sound like it. Sounds like they study how to be an asshole though.

Geoff_T
07-02-2008, 16:22
But all their prices look so reasonable. $325 for Open Water with an asterick that it does not include the gear you must buy in their shop (or another professionaly shop) but I bet any other LDS' gear will not measure up to their standards.

Let us know when there going our of business sale starts:smiley20:

$325 Yeiks I could by some fairly High end microphones for that much. Seriously I think I paid 150 in 1997 I can understand 200 or so but $325 for a beginner who probialy does not even know if they will stay with it or not. On the other hand I could see asking that much for AOW but then you are alerdy invested. Seriously where do these people come from $235 for OW, plus probially another 75-200 in extras.

gthomas
07-02-2008, 16:38
Having a small business myself I know how hard it is to shut your mouth when people start to brag about prices they found on the internet. It is hard to compete, but you do have to keep smiling and try to offer something they can't get on line. If your nice they WILL come back to shop.

ReefHound
07-02-2008, 16:40
There are a lot of hours of instruction for OW, it's a lot more intensive than AOW which is basically just 5 dives.

Foo2
07-02-2008, 17:06
Wow! I don't know what else to say.

MSilvia
07-02-2008, 17:13
Wow... I just sent them a friendly email letting them know why I'll be using Waterfront Diving when I'm up there on lake trips.

Geoff_T
07-02-2008, 17:39
There are a lot of hours of instruction for OW, it's a lot more intensive than AOW which is basically just 5 dives.


True however AOW is a higher level of certifacation and as such can theroreticaly comand a higher value. Also keep in mind that I am basicaly commenting on outfits that charge 350-400 for OW certifacation. These same outfits in my experiance often do not include in this things like rental for checkout dives or boat fees for checkout dives, which are quite possibaly done on their own boat. Or one in which there is an other finacial arangement. Plus the other fees for mask fins and shorkel at highly inflated rates.

Ooh and as a couple of others here have stated there are also quite a few shops pushing strongly for people just getting certified to buy everything, regs bc etc before they finish their cert. When you add it up it is way more cost than the student is getting in terms of return.

Martin2
07-02-2008, 17:58
Wow--just wow! How do these people expect to stay in business?

Martin2
07-02-2008, 17:59
Ooh and as a couple of others here have stated there are also quite a few shops pushing strongly for people just getting certified to buy everything, regs bc etc before they finish their cert. When you add it up it is way more cost than the student is getting in terms of return.

That's just so wrong.

Karletto
07-02-2008, 18:31
:anim_shock:
in our country we say a happy customer will spread the word far

Splitlip
07-02-2008, 18:38
Wow--just wow! How do these people expect to stay in business?

They won't. What you read in the OP sounds like their swan song. They are already on the way out I would guess judging by their actions.

Vercingetorix
07-02-2008, 20:06
Ooh and as a couple of others here have stated there are also quite a few shops pushing strongly for people just getting certified to buy everything, regs bc etc before they finish their cert. When you add it up it is way more cost than the student is getting in terms of return.In Dec 06 (I had not even registered for certification), the first dive shop I stopped in, the guy tried to sell me a "special deal" on the used rental BCD (I didn't even know what a BCD was) and a reg. He'd part with it for a mere $1200.

First, I had never gone diving, and this clown is trying to sell me a complete used rig?

Second, the BCD...a LadyHawke. That's right...I'm a guy, and he's trying to sell me a women's BCD. I'm not bad-mouthing female gear for guys; I'm just saying this clown has no clue what kind of diving I'll be doing, and he's recommending solutions.

I later found the same reg and BCD costing less, and they were new.

Dumb@$$...

Splitlip
07-02-2008, 21:21
the BCD...a LadyHawke. That's right...I'm a guy, and he's trying to sell me a women's BCD. Dumb@$$...

He probably noticed your comely hips and knew you wanted a BC which would comfortably above them.
He probably also assumed you wanted a BC that would be cut to fit your ample and heaving pearlescent bosom.

ian
07-02-2008, 21:52
Not to put too fine a point on it, but slander does nto cross into libel. They are two different actions, niether of which is criminal. They are civil wrongs.

Fomr Nolo Press:

An untruthful statement about a person, published in writing or through broadcast media, that injures the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because libel is a tort (http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/0103693A-305B-4122-BB9F564EF0CF5257)(a civil (http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/B315ED17-54C3-43FC-ABB42C8063CA9546)wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. Libel is a form of defamation (http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/E0563767-C3CE-42B0-90107F29AF588A6C), as is slander (http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/85BAB88B-0660-4AB6-A2F5C32E716A6D52)(an untruthful statement that is spoken, but not published in writing or broadcast through the media).

However, the actions of the store owner in the OP are still reprehensible. What a pity they didn't take time to learn what you needed and find a way to service that need.

BTW, Splitlip, I seriously hope your observstions regarding that Gaulic heavy are in jest. I was really looking forward to diving with him in Southern California!:smilie39:

rumblefish
07-02-2008, 22:41
Amazing that I keep hearing stories like this. Yes, most shops can't keep up with online prices, but they can try to make up for it with good personal relationships, service, and local convienence. When it comes to my local dive shop, I sometimes buy from them as opposed to online because I have a good relationship with the owner and want to support his business. Plus I know if there's anything wrong, I can always run to the shop and get instant help.

These owners have to know that there is nothing to be gained by insulting potential clients but much to be lost as word can get out and spread about treatment.

Rileybri
07-02-2008, 22:50
So I am back from an amazing afternoon dive to the Horse Ferry (http://www.lcmm.org/shipwrecks_history/uhp/horse_ferry.htm) in Lake Champlain through my actual LDS Waterfront Dave Center. I can tell you that it was a completely different and EXTREMELY positive experience with them (as usual). First off they know me by name when I walk in the door (Aside from my cert I have only been in a handful of times). Secondly I was chitchatting with one of the shop rats, as I was getting the wavers and forms signed for the charter, about my dive with Msilvia the previous weekend and how I tried his BP/W set up. As I was telling them about how much I loved the set up and how much fun the dive was, I was bracing my self for the "What? BP/W? How dare you use 'tech' gear" comments. However I was surprised when she stated "Ya thats usually how it goes, once you try a BP/W ya don't go back." Not oh what you really want is, or any of the many other negative responses I have had with my questions and inquiries about the different setups. So BIG KUDOS to WFD in BTV for not totally shooting me (a new diver in search of gear) down and alienating me. Actually I have nothing bad to say about them.

As for VS, well they are defiantly not the top money maker in their community. The shop was a mess, they have apparently branched out in to bikes as well as scuba as there were random tires and accessories hanging all over the place. What they did have for scuba gear was scattered over a much lager show room than they had product to sell. Now I have never been in before today and I got my cert from there ONLY local competitor but I would have to say they are not long for this world if they treet any of their other customers the way I was treated toady!

Fact they lied to me about "gray market" sails and "all" online sails.
Fact according to them Zeagle is second rate gray market goods not to be trusted (Go get em Scott)!
Fact Scuba Toys is misleading its customers and doing nothing but harming the scuba community.
Fact Not all LDS are like this and WFD is proof that the LDS and OLDS can coexist in a symbiotic partnership promoting scuba diving and providing quality goods.
Fact I would rather spend more on the same item at WFD and ST than save money on the same product at their going out of business sale!

I have spent the past four years (I am now back in social work) working in the retail world for the skiing/camping/climbing version of scuba toys here in VT. I ran there skiing and paddling departments for three of those yeas. I ran into people who thought they knew more than me, people who defiantly knew more than me and many people who know considerably less than me about what I did. NEVER have I or would I ever treat a customer this way. If for no other reason than they might sign on to the internet and and do this!

Rant off!

BTD

OH-JJ
07-02-2008, 23:36
Fact they lied to me about "gray market" sails and "all" online sails.



I am always Blown away by those Sails.
:smilie39:

Seriously though THE biggest threat to the LDS (Yes I work at one once upon a time,) is not there pricing. It is there inability to keep politics off the sales floor. customers do not want to hear about nor fight about ODS vs LDS vs ebay. If they have good customer service and are willing to make good deals, ( no I don't expect them to always beat online prices but at least come close,) they will do well.

CompuDude
07-03-2008, 00:51
I almost wish I was close enough to go shopping there. I could load up a bit shopping cart full of expensive stuff, go all the way through the sales process, and then walk out, explaining that I don't choose to do business with people of such low character...

Geoff_T
07-03-2008, 01:16
Not to put too fine a point on it, but slander does nto cross into libel. They are two different actions, niether of which is criminal. They are civil wrongs.

Fomr Nolo Press:

An untruthful statement about a person, published in writing or through broadcast media, that injures the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because libel is a tort (http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/0103693A-305B-4122-BB9F564EF0CF5257)(a civil (http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/B315ED17-54C3-43FC-ABB42C8063CA9546)wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. Libel is a form of defamation (http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/E0563767-C3CE-42B0-90107F29AF588A6C), as is slander (http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/85BAB88B-0660-4AB6-A2F5C32E716A6D52)(an untruthful statement that is spoken, but not published in writing or broadcast through the media).

However, the actions of the store owner in the OP are still reprehensible. What a pity they didn't take time to learn what you needed and find a way to service that need.

BTW, Splitlip, I seriously hope your observstions regarding that Gaulic heavy are in jest. I was really looking forward to diving with him in Southern California!:smilie39:


This is true, however according to the op they have alerdy slandered. If they do have a store news letter where they mention ST in such a way, and I would not be at all supprised if they do than it becomes lible. That said this shop is probially going belly up soon anyways.

fisheater
07-03-2008, 02:03
Jeez. Next thing you know, these guys will be running airlines! They've got the customer service skills required, for sure.

Vercingetorix
07-03-2008, 06:33
the BCD...a LadyHawke. That's right...I'm a guy, and he's trying to sell me a women's BCD. Dumb@$$...

He probably noticed your comely hips and knew you wanted a BC which would comfortably above them.
He probably also assumed you wanted a BC that would be cut to fit your ample and heaving pearlescent bosom.OK...now you're starting to worry me...:smiley36:
Given that your avatar includes a beautiful, young woman, I'm less worried...but still worried.

BTW, Splitlip, I seriously hope your observstions regarding that Gaulic heavy are in jest. I was really looking forward to diving with him in Southern California!Ignore him. He's jealous of my cut, buff, manly, physique.

mike_s
07-03-2008, 09:33
Well I made the mistake of standing up for ST to which the big guy behind the counter (who had been listening in) promptly hauled his super sized ass out of his barka lounger to say to me "if you dont get your internet buying, stupid ass self out of my dive shop, I will throw you out!" WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for nothing bung wholes! Victory Sports in Colchester VT SUCKS NARCOSIS!!!!!


what an ass....

we should invite him to join this discussion....

not so he can defend himself, but because I just know he'll make a bigger ass out of himself posting here and really show people what an idiot he is... :smilie39:

Monkeylemon
07-03-2008, 09:43
It never fails to amaze me that people who WANT something, ie. your business, will still act like jackasses. Even sociopaths know it's better to be polite; you have a much better chance of getting what you're after. Sheesh.

MSilvia
07-03-2008, 10:13
So I am back from an amazing afternoon dive to the Horse Ferry (http://www.lcmm.org/shipwrecks_history/uhp/horse_ferry.htm) in Lake Champlain
So.... let's hear about the dive!

Splitlip
07-03-2008, 12:12
BTW, Splitlip, I seriously hope your observstions regarding that Gaulic heavy are in jest. I was really looking forward to diving with him in Southern California!:smilie39:
Have you asked for pictures?:smiley2:

texarkandy
07-03-2008, 12:44
Not having an LDS closer than 90 miles from home, I do most of my buying from ST also.

But -
Now don't jump down my throat here, but I do have a couple observations about your, er, incident with this LDS.

Seems to me from the way you describe it you were part-and-parcel of the escalation of this "argument" beyond what was necessary.


And its all Scubatoys fault! I have two dive shops in my area. One I have had fairly positive experiences with and got my NAUI OW from them. The other is about five miles up the lake from me. Having never been in and now having a good reason to stop in I did so. I just wanted to look around and see what they had and made that clear from the get go. First off I had a ramora like shop rat following me around like I was going to stuff a steal 110 in my pocket. Then every two minutes I get oh you want to buy this, you got to have that.

Personally I hate that too - but that's how some salesfolk are - if it becomes too bothersome I just leave. No need to be rude just cause someone else isn't taking the hint.



I tell him there are only two things I am in the market for right now. first is a BP/W set up and the other is two ST 72's and as you dont have either of them you are SOL. I know I had just opened up a whole can of worms with that comment but what the hell why not right?

Why not? I would ask "why?" Why would you want to say a thing like that? Tell somebody they are SOL? Those are kind of fighting-words to a lot of folks. To what purpose? Did you come into the store looking for an argument or to put them down? The guy's just trying to sell scuba gear (albeit at significantly higher prices than ST). If you don't like the prices & they don't seem amenable to freindly negotiation - just leave.



Oh no you dont want a BP/W you want this and he grabbed out a gadgetifyed rear inflate sea quest BCD. My reply was the only rear inflate wing I am interested in is a Zeagle and once again you dont carry them so Oh well.


Fair enough statement to make to the guy.



Well this got them going on the "Grey Market" rant and yes scubatoys is killing diving! Yes they actually said scubatoys is killing diving! Well I made the mistake of standing up for ST ...

Well, maybe the internet IS "killing" their LDS, but again why further escalate the conversation by "standing up for ST"? I think ST pretty much stands on it's own two feet through good business practices. They obviously don't want to hear about ScubaToys and it's a sore point with them - it would have been apparent to me they were getting upset about it - why escalate? I'd just nod politely, say my goodbyes & leave without burning my bridges - you never know when you might want something in/from their shop in the future. (air perhaps, an o-ring in a pinch, a good deal on a consignment item, etc)



..... to which the big guy behind the counter (who had been listening in) promptly hauled his super sized ass out of his barka lounger to say to me "if you dont get your internet buying, stupid ass self out of my dive shop, I will throw you out!" WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for nothing bung wholes! Victory Sports in Colchester VT SUCKS NARCOSIS!!!!!


Perhaps the guy was having a bad day (owner?) - what with profit-margins at LDS' being so affected by the internet - and had pretty much had enough of a non-customer who is obviously not there to buy anything escalating a big argument with his sales clerk. (not that that's an excuse for his behavior)

Again, I think I would have just left without burning my bridges, but that's just me.
We can't really control other people's behavior, but we can control our own.

BTW - I've known some "super sized" people who are outstanding divers & instructors. In my short diving career, I've learned not to judge a diver by his/her size.

Rileybri
07-03-2008, 12:57
So I am back from an amazing afternoon dive to the Horse Ferry (http://www.lcmm.org/shipwrecks_history/uhp/horse_ferry.htm) in Lake Champlain
So.... let's hear about the dive!

Working on it. I will post it in the NE divers forum when it is done!

Rileybri
07-03-2008, 13:19
Texarcandy wrote:first off this is a free country and you are welcome to say what ever you want about my post. Actually I invite it. Keep calling me/us on our **** if it need to be called on....
Not having an LDS closer than 90 miles from home, I do most of my buying from ST also.

But -
Now don't jump down my throat here, but I do have a couple observations about your, er, incident with this LDS.

Seems to me from the way you describe it you were part-and-parcel of the escalation of this "argument" beyond what was necessary.
I very well may have been the catalyst for the argument but I certainly was not over the top with them. Bare in mind that I posted this very soon after it happend and I may have brought some of those emotions into my description of the events.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileybri http://forum.scubatoys.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.scubatoys.com/complaints-problems/14777-i-got-kicked-out-my-other-lds-post194958.html#post194958)
And its all Scubatoys fault! I have two dive shops in my area. One I have had fairly positive experiences with and got my NAUI OW from them. The other is about five miles up the lake from me. Having never been in and now having a good reason to stop in I did so. I just wanted to look around and see what they had and made that clear from the get go. First off I had a ramora like shop rat following me around like I was going to stuff a steal 110 in my pocket. Then every two minutes I get oh you want to buy this, you got to have that.

Personally I hate that too - but that's how some salesfolk are - if it becomes too bothersome I just leave. No need to be rude just cause someone else isn't taking the hint. its a store, a place where they want people looking at stuff not leaving due to poor CS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileybri http://forum.scubatoys.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.scubatoys.com/complaints-problems/14777-i-got-kicked-out-my-other-lds-post194958.html#post194958)
I tell him there are only two things I am in the market for right now. first is a BP/W set up and the other is two ST 72's and as you dont have either of them you are SOL. I know I had just opened up a whole can of worms with that comment but what the hell why not right?

Why not? I would ask "why?" Why would you want to say a thing like that? Tell somebody they are SOL? Those are kind of fighting-words to a lot of folks. To what purpose? Did you come into the store looking for an argument or to put them down? The guy's just trying to sell scuba gear (albeit at significantly higher prices than ST). If you don't like the prices & they don't seem amenable to freindly negotiation - just leave.
The can of worms I am referring to is bringing up a BP/W in a LDS which until my interactions with WFD were very negative. I was much more tactful in my statement of needs to the shop employee than I wrote in my OP. I did not tell them they were SOL I told him I am not finding the items I am interested in although you are a Dive Rite dealer however I am going to keep looking to see what you else you have in store. The SOL part was internal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileybri http://forum.scubatoys.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.scubatoys.com/complaints-problems/14777-i-got-kicked-out-my-other-lds-post194958.html#post194958)
Oh no you dont want a BP/W you want this and he grabbed out a gadgetifyed rear inflate sea quest BCD. My reply was the only rear inflate wing I am interested in is a Zeagle and once again you dont carry them so Oh well.


Fair enough statement to make to the guy. I thought so!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileybri http://forum.scubatoys.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.scubatoys.com/complaints-problems/14777-i-got-kicked-out-my-other-lds-post194958.html#post194958)
Well this got them going on the "Grey Market" rant and yes scubatoys is killing diving! Yes they actually said scubatoys is killing diving! Well I made the mistake of standing up for ST ...

Well, maybe the internet IS "killing" their LDS, but again why further escalate the conversation by "standing up for ST"? I think ST pretty much stands on it's own two feet through good business practices. They obviously don't want to hear about ScubaToys and it's a sore point with them - it would have been apparent to me they were getting upset about it - why escalate? I'd just nod politely, say my goodbyes & leave without burning my bridges - you never know when you might want something in/from their shop in the future. (air perhaps, an o-ring in a pinch, a good deal on a consignment item, etc)
The internet is not killing them, their crappy location, poor CS and a far superior LDS in a better location are killing them. Hay they brought up ST not me. All I did was bring up my liking of Zeagle (which they carried at one point but stopped because they were a "grey market Co.). They escalated things not me. I worked in retail for many years as an floor employee and and a Mgr. I treat every shop employee the way I would have wanted to be treated. If you have never worked retail their are a few simple rules, the customer is always right, the customer is always right and wen the customer is wrong they are still right! Actually its kind of like being married...............Regardless of my actions there are correct ways and incorrect ways of handling the situation. they chose poorly!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rileybri http://forum.scubatoys.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.scubatoys.com/complaints-problems/14777-i-got-kicked-out-my-other-lds-post194958.html#post194958)
..... to which the big guy behind the counter (who had been listening in) promptly hauled his super sized ass out of his barka lounger to say to me "if you dont get your internet buying, stupid ass self out of my dive shop, I will throw you out!" WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for nothing bung wholes! Victory Sports in Colchester VT SUCKS NARCOSIS!!!!!

Perhaps the guy was having a bad day I am sure that is wat was up (owner?) - what with profit-margins at LDS' being so affected by the internet - and had pretty much had enough of a non-customer who is obviously not there to buy anything escalating a big argument with his sales clerk. (not that that's an excuse for his behavior)
Actually I was in there looking at there charters. I did not know what they had as far as product went but just because I did not come in with any specific purchases in mind does not mean I was not going to get anything ever from them! actually the shop owner escalated the argument with his own employee. She was clearly not comfortable with his actions as well.

Again, I think I would have just left without burning my bridges, but that's just me.
We can't really control other people's behavior, but we can control our own.

BTW - I've known some "super sized" people who are outstanding divers & instructors. In my short diving career, I've learned not to judge a diver by his/her size
I was not judging his diving abilities just his ability or lack there of to get out of his seat to join/escalate an discussion/argument he was not a part of to begin with.

thanks for you comments and observations

cheers,

Brian D.

SlvrDragon50
07-04-2008, 12:24
Hah!

Im lucky. My LDS is expensive but he doesn't care if we buy from the internet. As long as we are "educated" in our purchases -> why we should buy Scuba Pro products from him.

diver-wife
07-04-2008, 16:54
wow, and people then blame the economy for them not selling product. I have worked for a small business owner in college, his prices where higher, but with excellent customer service, he made a killing, and eventually sold his business for >$800,000 after 5 years.

thagar
07-04-2008, 21:33
I have only been to my LDS once, but I get the feeling they could be like that too. He asked me where I was getting certified and I told him an independant guy. He got a little bit of an attittude but didn't say anything because I was buying stuff from him.

Sasha_K
07-04-2008, 22:14
They think if they are good divers, they are good salespeople too. Great players DONT make great coaches (there have been a few exceptions)

I keep my mouth shut though. I go, look at the equipment there, and I still get it here. That way, everyone is happy :-)

Splitlip
07-04-2008, 22:26
Hah

Im lucky. My LDS is expensive but he doesn't care if we buy from the internet. As long as we are "educated" in our purchases -> why we should buy Scuba Pro products from him.

From another thread. I happen to think Scubapro s top of the line.

I Really like Scubapro regs. One of the great things about them is the warranty and the fact that they have a strong world wide network.
Now, the thing with Scubapro, Aqualung, Atomic and maybe some others is the fact that authorized dealers are not allowed to discount more than 10%. 5% for Atomic.
That is why often on this board, slamming of the Scubapro LDS is unfair. The Shop owner is not allowed to discount more than 10% or he loses his right to sell the product.
Now I own lots of scubapro including regs, computers, BC, fins and more. Every purchase I made was less than or equal to on line prices from leisurepro (not an authorized Scubapro dealer) and less than or equal to online prices for similar gear from other manufacturers.
How? While the shop cannot discount more than 10%, they can sweeten the deal with air/nitrox fills, boat trips, other products (like free spring straps) etc. Also, once a sucbapro product (like my tec computer) is discontinued, the LDS is allowed to discount as he sees fit.
Now, I admit, I am a strong supporter of 4 local shops and have built a good relationship with them. However, 7 or 8 years ago I bought a set of Scubapro regs from one shop who did not know me from Adam except I got my fills there. I gave a little wimper about the price and they discounted it 10% and gave me 10 nitrox fills. I went home with my new toy, checked Leisurepro and saw adjusted price was about the same. Plus I had the warranty which paid for itself alone.

digitalman
07-04-2008, 22:48
Hah!

Im lucky. My LDS is expensive but he doesn't care if we buy from the internet. As long as we are "educated" in our purchases -> why we should buy Scuba Pro products from him.

I'm in the same boat. My LDS would prefer that we buy from them, but if we have gear that is safe (maintained) we're welcome to use it any time we like in class or a trip. If it's something they service, usually there's no problem there too. There's only so much an LDS can do to try and 'match' internet pricing due to the overhead issue, and my LDS has come to accept this as part of the business.

Geoff_T
07-05-2008, 01:04
Hah

Im lucky. My LDS is expensive but he doesn't care if we buy from the internet. As long as we are "educated" in our purchases -> why we should buy Scuba Pro products from him.

From another thread. I happen to think Scubapro s top of the line.

I Really like Scubapro regs. One of the great things about them is the warranty and the fact that they have a strong world wide network.
Now, the thing with Scubapro, Aqualung, Atomic and maybe some others is the fact that authorized dealers are not allowed to discount more than 10%. 5% for Atomic.
That is why often on this board, slamming of the Scubapro LDS is unfair. The Shop owner is not allowed to discount more than 10% or he loses his right to sell the product.
Now I own lots of scubapro including regs, computers, BC, fins and more. Every purchase I made was less than or equal to on line prices from leisurepro (not an authorized Scubapro dealer) and less than or equal to online prices for similar gear from other manufacturers.
How? While the shop cannot discount more than 10%, they can sweeten the deal with air/nitrox fills, boat trips, other products (like free spring straps) etc. Also, once a sucbapro product (like my tec computer) is discontinued, the LDS is allowed to discount as he sees fit.
Now, I admit, I am a strong supporter of 4 local shops and have built a good relationship with them. However, 7 or 8 years ago I bought a set of Scubapro regs from one shop who did not know me from Adam except I got my fills there. I gave a little wimper about the price and they discounted it 10% and gave me 10 nitrox fills. I went home with my new toy, checked Leisurepro and saw adjusted price was about the same. Plus I had the warranty which paid for itself alone.

Yeah this is pretty much how I got my current rig. us divers was changeing the name on my regs so I got them as a closeout. That said I have run into a lot of scuba pro-only shops where every other brand is bashed up one side and down the other. I don't think it is a problem with the product per say but the sales people/ distributers.

fireflock
07-05-2008, 07:22
Now, the thing with Scubapro, Aqualung, Atomic and maybe some others is the fact that authorized dealers are not allowed to discount more than 10%. 5% for Atomic.
That is why often on this board, slamming of the Scubapro LDS is unfair. The Shop owner is not allowed to discount more than 10% or he loses his right to sell the product..

Divers call BS on that because it's so easy to find dealers that are willing to sell those brands at more than 10% off. Why are there so many shops will to break the 'rules' and risk loosing the dealership. It's because either (a) the rule does not exist or (b) the rule is not enforced.

Either way, it's easy to see that those 'rules' don't benefit the customer at all, so slamming the policy is not unfair, IMO. The LDS is free to carry another brand if they are really looking out for the customer.

Rich

Sansho
07-05-2008, 07:44
Now, the thing with Scubapro, Aqualung, Atomic and maybe some others is the fact that authorized dealers are not allowed to discount more than 10%. 5% for Atomic.
That is why often on this board, slamming of the Scubapro LDS is unfair. The Shop owner is not allowed to discount more than 10% or he loses his right to sell the product.

Are you talking about the MAP or minimum advertised price? I thought they could not advertise a price below that, but that was the only constraint. I know my LDS will sell at that price and says he can't price below that, however, I didn't think a manufacturer could legally establish a minimum sales price.

Splitlip
07-05-2008, 08:07
Dealers are restricted from discounting beyond 10% with Scubapro. I am sure there are MAP restrictions too, but that is a moot point in the face of the sales policy.
http://www.scuba.com/resources/scubapro/

"SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA does not authorize sales via the internet nor via mail order. We maintain a minimum pricing policy that our authorized dealers adhere to."

fireflock
07-05-2008, 08:20
Dealers are restricted from discounting beyond 10% with Scubapro. I am sure there are MAP restrictions too, but that is a moot point in the face of the sales policy.
http://www.scuba.com/resources/scubapro/

Say I'm commited to buying a ScubaPro reg from an authorized dealer. How do any of those policies help me as a customer (price policy, over the counter sales policy)?

Splitlip
07-05-2008, 10:53
Now, the thing with Scubapro, Aqualung, Atomic and maybe some others is the fact that authorized dealers are not allowed to discount more than 10%. 5% for Atomic.
That is why often on this board, slamming of the Scubapro LDS is unfair. The Shop owner is not allowed to discount more than 10% or he loses his right to sell the product..

Divers call BS on that because it's so easy to find dealers that are willing to sell those brands at more than 10% off. Why are there so many shops will to break the 'rules' and risk loosing the dealership. It's because either (a) the rule does not exist or (b) the rule is not enforced.

Either way, it's easy to see that those 'rules' don't benefit the customer at all, so slamming the policy is not unfair, IMO. The LDS is free to carry another brand if they are really looking out for the customer.

Rich

From the Scubapro letter.

"SCUBAPRO UWATEC USA does not authorize sales via the internet nor via mail order. We maintain a minimum pricing policy that our authorized dealers adhere to."

Splitlip
07-05-2008, 11:07
Dealers are restricted from discounting beyond 10% with Scubapro. I am sure there are MAP restrictions too, but that is a moot point in the face of the sales policy.
http://www.scuba.com/resources/scubapro/

Say I'm commited to buying a ScubaPro reg from an authorized dealer. How do any of those policies help me as a customer (price policy, over the counter sales policy)?

I can't say why Scubapro and AL have the policy. Only reason I see is to protect their network of local shops. These manufacturers do have a pretty substantial world wide network of authorized dealers and service facilities to honor the warranties.
The reality of this internet world, is the Mom and Pops find it difficult to compete with the big on line dealers of products like Zeagle, Oceanic etc.

Of the 5 shops in my area: 1 stocks only the Scubapro line, 1 stocks Scubapro and Halcyon, 1 stocks Scubapro and AL, 1 stocks AL and Atomic.
The 5th is a Divers Direct. Certainly not a Mom and Pop and a strong internet seller. Divers Direct stocks AL, Atomic as well as Zeagle, Aeris, Mares, Oceanic etc.
I suspect one of the reasons the 4 smaller shops stay in business is because of the internet restrictions and price protection afforded by SP, AL and Atomic.

fireflock
07-05-2008, 12:19
I can't say why Scubapro and AL have the policy. Only reason I see is to protect their network of local shops. These manufacturers do have a pretty substantial world wide network of authorized dealers and service facilities to honor the warranties.
The reality of this internet world, is the Mom and Pops find it difficult to compete with the big on line dealers of products like Zeagle, Oceanic etc.



I agree. The polices are in place to force customers to buy from the closest shop, regardless of how good or bad that local shop is.

FWIW - Zeagle, Oceanic, and pretty much all of the local brands have minimum advertised price policies to 'protect' margin for all of their retailers. Allowing internet/mail order/ phone sales means that dealers for these brands have a strong incentive to provide first class service. If they don't, their customers will buy from somewhere else at the exact same price.

Scubapro and Aqualung dealers don't have that incentive, and sometimes it really shows.

mike_s
07-05-2008, 13:50
Now, the thing with Scubapro, Aqualung, Atomic and maybe some others is the fact that authorized dealers are not allowed to discount more than 10%. 5% for Atomic.
That is why often on this board, slamming of the Scubapro LDS is unfair. The Shop owner is not allowed to discount more than 10% or he loses his right to sell the product.

Are you talking about the MAP or minimum advertised price? I thought they could not advertise a price below that, but that was the only constraint. I know my LDS will sell at that price and says he can't price below that, however, I didn't think a manufacturer could legally establish a minimum sales price.


Any ScubaPro, Aqualung or Atomic shop that adhere's to their manufacturer 5% or 10% minimum discount and misses a sale is just stupid, regardless of the dealer agreement.

Allowing customers to "walk" out of their shop and not be price competitive is not in their interest or the customers..... They don't have to advertise they are giving a discount (so they aren't openly breaking the rules), but they should shoot themselves in the foot either....


As for it being legal for a manufacturer to establish minumum sales prices, that was just upheld by the Supreme Court in the past year. Reference Leegin vs. PSKS

Splitlip
07-05-2008, 15:39
Which is why the 2 SP shops I deal with will comp the buyer with fills, boat trips and more.

plot
07-05-2008, 19:09
So many LDS's let the that whole internet fad pass them by... and now they're pissed off. It's to be expected.

plot
07-05-2008, 19:12
Which is why the 2 SP shops I deal with will comp the buyer with fills, boat trips and more.

Yup, a smart shop will make up for SP's restrictions by offering package deals.

How hard is it to throw in a free tank and some fills to make buying a $500 aqualung reg and $500 scubapro bcd look more appealing?

Geoff_T
07-06-2008, 11:34
So many LDS's let the that whole internet fad pass them by... and now they're pissed off. It's to be expected.

I agree, It amazes me how many shops have at best an extremely rudimentary web site. What amazes me even more is how few list rental and fill prices. So what if they might not have everything all the time it makes people trying to plan a weekend a lot more likely to actually follow through if they have access to that info. Fill's for that matter as well, in any other business it would be considered standard practice.

IrishSquid
07-06-2008, 19:54
He probably noticed your comely hips and knew you wanted a BC which would comfortably above them.
He probably also assumed you wanted a BC that would be cut to fit your ample and heaving pearlescent bosom.

Dude, you ain't right. :smilie39:

Laustimus
07-07-2008, 09:39
Lots of LDS's are going to be closing shop and making room for ones like ST that keep up with the digital age as far as equipment goes especially.

We have a few really nice shops here in Colorado, but their websites do absolutly NOTHING to compliment their stores. There is one here that has a really nice site when it comes to their events, trips and training, but then when it comes to rental and sales it's poor.

LDS owners need to become a lot more internet aware.

mike_s
07-07-2008, 10:26
Lots of LDS's are going to be closing shop and making room for ones like ST that keep up with the digital age as far as equipment goes especially.

We have a few really nice shops here in Colorado, but their websites do absolutly NOTHING to compliment their stores. There is one here that has a really nice site when it comes to their events, trips and training, but then when it comes to rental and sales it's poor.

LDS owners need to become a lot more internet aware.


The reason that most shops sites aren't that great is that making a great site takes lots of time (or money to pay for someone elses time). Mainting that site takes a lot more time (or more money). editing products, adding products, etc is very time consuming.

some shops just choose not to focus much on changing or updating their websites. Most of the time their traffic reports reflect that also.

some shops just want the "who we are, where we are" what we are" type websites and don't want to go into retail online sales.



as for what the future holds..... There will be some shops that will continue to prosper with brick-n-motar only sales. but they are in an area that will suppor that. But smaller shops with smaller inventories and MSRP prices will have trouble competing for internet sales.

Joe L
07-07-2008, 13:10
I guess I can understand how a LDS would feel that way BUT, it is what it is. I will buy from the Internet but, I believe I will give my LDS business too the best I can. In these days I need all the breaks I can get when handing over the dollar.

ReefHound
07-07-2008, 14:11
The reason that most shops sites aren't that great is that making a great site takes lots of time (or money to pay for someone elses time). Mainting that site takes a lot more time (or more money). editing products, adding products, etc is very time consuming.

The smart shop will find one of their avid customers who will do it in exchange for air fills or other perks. Shops are very good at finding divemaster slaves, why not web slaves?

A well structured site with a good shopping cart makes it fairly quick and easy to maintain. I would prefer a shop provide online sales but even if not there are some of us that prefer to get our information via website than picking up the phone and calling. Websites answer the call 24/7.

(I hate calling people, not that I don't like people but when you work in cubicles then your phone calls are heard by everyone. Can you imagine if these forums were voice driven and all your co-workers were listening as you spoke your posts rather than typed them?)

mike_s
07-07-2008, 15:06
The reason that most shops sites aren't that great is that making a great site takes lots of time (or money to pay for someone elses time). Mainting that site takes a lot more time (or more money). editing products, adding products, etc is very time consuming.

The smart shop will find one of their avid customers who will do it in exchange for air fills or other perks. Shops are very good at finding divemaster slaves, why not web slaves?




hmmm... that's actually a pretty good idea. If you can make your divemaster work as a slave, why not make your webmaster work as one also...

the only flaw that I see with that is that most dive shop owners are "control freaks" and they want to control the content of what's on their page, or their way of doing it is "the only way", or they are always right..... **sighhhh***

hooligan
07-07-2008, 18:24
So many LDS's let the that whole internet fad pass them by... and now they're pissed off. It's to be expected.

I don't know if you should call the internet a "fad" because it's here to stay...

ReefHound
07-07-2008, 18:33
I think that was sarcasm. Those shops thought it was just a fad and now they are in a bind because they thought wrong.

Largo
07-07-2008, 19:55
Victory Sports in Colchester VT SUCKS NARCOSIS!!!!!

Just out of curiosity, what agency are they affiliated with?

CompuDude
07-08-2008, 15:16
The reason that most shops sites aren't that great is that making a great site takes lots of time (or money to pay for someone elses time). Mainting that site takes a lot more time (or more money). editing products, adding products, etc is very time consuming.

The smart shop will find one of their avid customers who will do it in exchange for air fills or other perks. Shops are very good at finding divemaster slaves, why not web slaves?

hmmm... that's actually a pretty good idea. If you can make your divemaster work as a slave, why not make your webmaster work as one also...

the only flaw that I see with that is that most dive shop owners are "control freaks" and they want to control the content of what's on their page, or their way of doing it is "the only way", or they are always right..... **sighhhh***

The problem is, webmasters have a skill that pays good money. Dive shop owners don't like paying good money. Many people DM for the love of diving, with little need for financial compensation. How many people code websites for the love of coding? Far fewer. Even fewer ALSO have an interest in diving...

mike_s
07-08-2008, 15:44
well you often get what you pay for :D

MSilvia
07-08-2008, 16:20
For what it's worth, the owner of the dive shop in question was quick to respond to my email, and seemed genuinely concerned that one of his employees behaved this way.
To paraphrase, "The only time I have a problem with internet sales is when people use my shop as a fitting room so they can order the right size from someone else." He also said, concerning grey-market sales, that he could care less where people got their gear, especially if they're willing to pay him to service it.

He seemed like a reasonable guy, and I'll be forwarding his last email to Brian in an effort to figure out who was behind the desk.

mike_s
07-08-2008, 16:33
To paraphrase, "The only time I have a problem with internet sales is when people use my shop as a fitting room so they can order the right size from someone else." .


I've got to agree with him on the above.

If you want to buy something online.... then fine... no sweat.

but I don't think you should go bother a brick-n-mortar shop for their "value added" time to fit you for a wetsuit and then go order it elsewhere to save $5 or $50 bucks.

but I had one LDS owner tell me that she had a woman come in once and try on a wetsuit, only to ask him to borrow his phone, then proceeded to call Leisure Pro from his shop to order the wetsuit.

I think he was too nice to her as I would have thrown her out.

diver 85
07-08-2008, 22:58
And its all Scubatoys fault! I have two dive shops in my area. One I have had fairly positive experiences with and got my NAUI OW from them. The other is about five miles up the lake from me. Having never been in and now having a good reason to stop in I did so. I just wanted to look around and see what they had and made that clear from the get go. First off I had a ramora like shop rat following me around like I was going to stuff a steal 110 in my pocket. Then every two minutes I get oh you want to buy this, you got to have that. I tell him there are only two things I am in the market for right now. first is a BP/W set up and the other is two ST 72's and as you dont have either of them you are SOL. I know I had just opened up a whole can of worms with that comment but what the hell why not right? Oh no you dont want a BP/W you want this and he grabbed out a gadgetifyed rear inflate sea quest BCD. My reply was the only rear inflate wing I am interested in is a Zeagle and once again you dont carry them so Oh well. Well this got them going on the "Grey Market" rant and yes scubatoys is killing diving! Yes they actually said scubatoys is killing diving! Well I made the mistake of standing up for ST to which the big guy behind the counter (who had been listening in) promptly hauled his super sized ass out of his barka lounger to say to me "if you dont get your internet buying, stupid ass self out of my dive shop, I will throw you out!" WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for nothing bung wholes! Victory Sports in Colchester VT SUCKS NARCOSIS!!!!!

Actually there is some truth to what you've described.....but, that's free enterprise---occasionally it can bite you in the arse.....

SlvrDragon50
07-08-2008, 23:36
Well its not that my LDS bashes other brands..

He just has SP and AL only in the showroom. I still like the store though since the owner is really fun to talk with.b

CFDAlden
07-09-2008, 00:08
For what it's worth, the owner of the dive shop in question was quick to respond to my email, and seemed genuinely concerned that one of his employees behaved this way.
To paraphrase, "The only time I have a problem with internet sales is when people use my shop as a fitting room so they can order the right size from someone else." He also said, concerning grey-market sales, that he could care less where people got their gear, especially if they're willing to pay him to service it.

He seemed like a reasonable guy, and I'll be forwarding his last email to Brian in an effort to figure out who was behind the desk.

Thank you Matt! I certified through Victory, and came to this thread late. I've never had an issue with Victory, in any way. When they put my reg set together, they actually checked some online retailers, and gave me a deal better than some of the online shops. Ditto my computers. A bit more expensive (10%ish) than Leisurepro, but not enough to cause a concern.

I can picture who Brian dealt with, though. I have a very good idea, as a matter of fact.

-H

ReefHound
07-09-2008, 08:41
but I had one LDS owner tell me that she had a woman come in once and try on a wetsuit, only to ask him to borrow his phone, then proceeded to call Leisure Pro from his shop to order the wetsuit.

Nobody is that ignorant. That had to be an intentional slap in the face for some underlying reason. She was trying to stick it to him and wanted to be sure he knew about it.

mike_s
07-09-2008, 10:37
but I had one LDS owner tell me that she had a woman come in once and try on a wetsuit, only to ask him to borrow his phone, then proceeded to call Leisure Pro from his shop to order the wetsuit.

Nobody is that ignorant. That had to be an intentional slap in the face for some underlying reason. She was trying to stick it to him and wanted to be sure he knew about it.


Perhaps so... but I never underestimate the stupidity of some people to do certain things...

Geoff_T
07-09-2008, 17:52
The reason that most shops sites aren't that great is that making a great site takes lots of time (or money to pay for someone elses time). Mainting that site takes a lot more time (or more money). editing products, adding products, etc is very time consuming.

The smart shop will find one of their avid customers who will do it in exchange for air fills or other perks. Shops are very good at finding divemaster slaves, why not web slaves?

hmmm... that's actually a pretty good idea. If you can make your divemaster work as a slave, why not make your webmaster work as one also...

the only flaw that I see with that is that most dive shop owners are "control freaks" and they want to control the content of what's on their page, or their way of doing it is "the only way", or they are always right..... **sighhhh***

The problem is, webmasters have a skill that pays good money. Dive shop owners don't like paying good money. Many people DM for the love of diving, with little need for financial compensation. How many people code websites for the love of coding? Far fewer. Even fewer ALSO have an interest in diving...

I don't know about that I would say that I know of a few that would do it if you comped them for their time. I.e. lessons equipment and air. The thing about it though is they probally would want to be comped for the actual value of their services. I have tried to do a couple of these types of video jobs and usually it does not end up happening because of the client. Take video editors for example, many of them also do web site work.

The problem is that even a simple project can fairly easily run into the 40 hr range. Pay for a professional editor is something in the $50-100/hr depending on how much equipment and skill they have. Unfortunately many customers who are not used to paying for professional multi-media, web etc projects think it can be done for like $200. Even if the programer/editor is a friendly customer and cuts the shop a break it will still be expensive. So as you stated it is more about the shops not being willing to make the investment.

In terms of comp cost you would be either looking at a full equiptment package or equiptment package plus dry suite which is a lot to swallow for many.

mike_s
07-09-2008, 22:01
I know what you mean about companies not liking to pay the going rate.

I used to do UNIX work on the side. I don't anymore because most people don't want to pay for what I charge. (I used to work for a Unix OS/manufacturer and can do some high end stuff with it....)

Anyway.... one of the companies was a large Air Conditioning company with several branches that had lots of Unix servers and they didn't know much about maintaining them or fixing them. Their owner called me one day wanted me to do some upgrades, I gave him a price, and he said it was too high. I told him I wouldn't do it any cheaper as I'd have to travel to get to their remote site to do the work and just didn't want to for that much. He said he'd go get someone cheaper.... I reminded him that his service rates for his A/C repairmen were about what I was charging him an hour. He said, we'll that's different because they are doing technical work...... I said OK and kinda laughed to myself wondering what would happen.

a week later, this unkown guy calls me and needs help getting their Unix servers back online. The owner had hired some guy who was cheaper, but didn't know squat of what he was doing and he told him to call me to walk him through getting it back online.

I asked him to put the owner on the line and said "you didn't want to pay my rate, so you go hire someone else and them expect me to help him over the phone for free?" dead silence over the phone.

But it's amazing how some people will get cheap on some things like this, even with their entire business work order and accounting system is down and none of their employees they are paying in any of the offices can do any work..... (their employee down time for all their office employees would have easily paid to have done it right in the first place). go figure.