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View Full Version : Great Quote from LDS on internet sales



blewgrass
07-06-2008, 21:17
OK Scuba Toys, these guys are taking aim at YOU! ... And I take offense, so I am sticking up for you!!!

Check this out: (dive shop identity protected for now....)

" A word about online sales...You should know: Because of liability, the best manufactures of diving and snorkeling equipment do not allow their products to be sold online. The other manufactures who do sell online --are not the best, and their products are simply not among the top choices available. The manufactures of the products most people prefer to own make a profit and have attorneys, and therefore won't sell online... The manufactures whose products are "less than preferred" are forced to sell anything they can, any way they can, against better judgment --and the consumer is usually the last one to know...

We realize that you can not always buy the best and therefore we offer many different price ranges, but regardless, we would encourage you not to sell yourself short. We would also like to thank you for supporting your local dive center! "

Can you guys believe this? Am I missing some hidden wisdom here?

We can break this paragraph down to it's parts and none of it holds water. A genuine wooden nickel from a shop claiming to be the best.

The bold part at the bottom they say "we realize you can't always buy the best, so we have some crappy gear just like the internet place but it will cost you much more...."

This stuff is what turns me away.

SlvrDragon50
07-06-2008, 21:22
Ahaha.. This makes me laugh

blewgrass
07-06-2008, 21:27
This quote is on their WEBSITE... these guys are looking to break through big time. Watch Out Microsoft!! These guys are ON IT! How dumb do they think we are??

Wolfie2012
07-06-2008, 21:47
Well, googled the paragraph and.... Oddly enough the wetsuits they picture on their equipment page are henderson suits which are fully authorized for online sales by their dealers. ;)

fisheater
07-06-2008, 21:56
Just googled it and found out that IT'S MY LDS!!!!

Honestly, these guys are just fine person. They treat me very well, even though they KNOW that I buy all my major items from ScubaToys. Heck. They even let me use my ST Zeagle gear in their pool during my OW class.

I'll be going there tomorrow to get my tank (not purchased through them) filled and to return their rental tank.

blewgrass
07-06-2008, 22:10
They are nice guys. Not entirely truthful, but nice. I can fill my tanks for almost half their air card price at other local dive shops that are closer to the water and open at 4:30AM.

I did my best to support them. They told me they would price match. I brought them a price and they declined. I bought the item at another retailer for $50 less. I felt good about giving them the opportunity for my business. They claimed that they had enough of a clientel that "had the resources to pay their prices" and they were satisfied with that. No problem, just don't represent that you price match then. The quote above is also a misrepresentation because many brands on their list are available for online purchase. Just tell the truth and you'll get a lot more respect from me.

jimmysdevoted
07-06-2008, 22:10
I know things are tough all over, but really they are shooting themselves in teh foot, err fin,,, err tank..... for that comment........

I did read where Aqualung on their website explained about lesiure pro and gray market.....

personally.. anywhere i get what I want and personal service, friends and commeraderie is a place for me.. irregardless of price.
. though saving money is always nice

julie

Sasha_K
07-06-2008, 22:28
Post a link to their site so we send a few emails. How came ST carries the same brands as all other LDSs...hmmm...

blewgrass
07-06-2008, 22:38
No they are not taking aim at ST. It is just advertising - a way to boost their sales.

I disagree. They are making some statements that are untrue and leading the public to believe that ALL online sales are inferior and also suggesting the equipment is unsafe. I especially don't like the part about the lawyers. It was obviously written without a great deal of forethought.

dinger340
07-06-2008, 23:13
10:12:58 PM
[View Source] (http://mailcenter3.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/487198400008D9ED000023302216527966CFCBCC9C9A01079D 9A0C?cmd=ShowSrc&no=1&uid=137237&sid=c0)
" A word about online sales...You should know: Because of liability, the best manufactures of diving and snorkeling equipment do not allow their products to be sold online. The other manufactures who do sell online --are not the best, and their products are simply not among the top choices available. The manufactures of the products most people prefer to own make a profit and have attorneys, and therefore won't sell online... The manufactures whose products are "less than preferred" are forced to sell anything they can, any way they can, against better judgment --and the consumer is usually the last one to know...We realize that you can not always buy the best and therefore we offer many different price ranges, but regardless, we would encourage you not to sell yourself short. We would also like to thank you for supporting your local dive center! "



Just so you know, your little moral business high ground quote hit a scuba forum and just reinforces the mindset that LDS elitist sales emphasis is what redirects business elsewhere; where a customer has a range of choices and a selection of products that can be researched, purchased for a value vs cost price without the pressure, hype and disingenuous sales tactics.

I don't live near your store but find that your business practice and focus reflect many LDS's and this is the primary reason that I shop online and have been very successful and happy with the equipment that I've purchased. It is nice to have a positive buying experience when purchasing equipment for the sport that I feel so passionate about and for this reason, I only go to my LDS for fills, classes, and as a last resort for items that are usually consumables. Keep up the sacred LDS business model while those who cater to value and customer service and just plain enthusiasm for the sport, reap the benefit...A Colorado Diver

rainmaker
07-06-2008, 23:27
Here's a direct link:

Scuba and Snorkeling Equipment in Marin and Sonoma County (http://www.pinnaclesdive.com/products.htm)

Sansho
07-07-2008, 05:31
Geesh .... Oceanic specifically allows online sales too ...

Martin2
07-07-2008, 08:05
I'm appalled by their statements; however, I do feel compelled to share the other side. Just so we all take a moment to remember that not every LDS is like this one.

From my LDS's website:

A lot of dive retailers have a rather negative, knee-jerk reaction to people shopping on the web. You'll hear stuff like:
"Just wait till you have to buy air over the net when people like you drive me out of business!"
or

"Just wait till you have a problem and find out you don't have warranty coverage."
or
"!!####%%!!!%$#@!#$#!$@!#".....!
At Nu Horizons, our reaction is kind of different:
"Good for you! You're shopping for dive gear! Diving is a great sport. Divers are good people. You're going to love having your own gear."
Here's 2 simple facts:
The internet direct sellers are selling dive gear at it's basic worth, unassembled, in the box. Gypsy Divers and other good stores sell dive gear with the following values added: We assemble it, configure it to your specific needs, and absolutely guarantee the fit. We make sure you are fully aware of all the features present in the gear you choose, and fully trained in the purpose and use of these features. We register the warranty for you, and then are here to instantly resolve any warranty issues. We guarantee your satisfaction with your equipment choice or all your money back instantly - no questions asked. We advise you when your annual service is due and are here to honor the annual service warranties. We will always be here for free, cheerful consultation on all the places and ways you can use your new stuff. We want you diving and happy!

And here's the best news:
YOU get to decide whether or not we're worth it. So here's our suggested intelligent internet shopping strategy: You know you need to touch it and try it on, which you can't do on the internet, so give us a friendly visit. Come look at all our equipment; ask questions, try things on for sizing, and get catalogs and anything else to help you choose your perfect system. Then hit the net and find out what the stuff is selling for without the value we add. All we ask in return is that before you transmit a credit card number to someone who doesn't know you in a warehouse in some other state, you give us one last chance to make you one of our many happy, loyal customers: Just show us what system you have chosen and what pricing you have found in cyberland.
In exchange, we'll make certain you are getting what you think you're getting: right size, current model, right features, etc. And we'll tell you what the cost difference would be if you buy the exact same system from us, with all the above values added. One simple number. No pressure. Then you decide.
I guarantee we will treat you with all the cordial respect due an intelligent and thorough shopper, and will sincerely attempt to negotiate something that makes all of us happy.
Good luck on your hunt. You're going to love having your own stuff. ~ Larry
Because of this philosophy, I make every effort to allow them to give me the best deal they can on the gear they stock.

Vercingetorix
07-07-2008, 08:19
Martin2, thanks for that quote. It's good to see that a shop elevates customer service and relations. I'm glad you are supporting them as well. It's their attitude that will help build our sport by recruiting and training divers.

jimmysdevoted
07-07-2008, 08:37
What about the companies that feel the same way about OI sales? I knwo of aqualuing using only authorized, but when you do a search at some manufacturers almost no onlines come up, usually just dive shops.. does thins chamge how you would feel about that specific company...

ReefHound
07-07-2008, 08:46
Martin2, your shop is light years ahead of the one the thread was based upon but it is still somewhat misleading. By saying internet retailer prices are for unassembled untested gear and their prices are for "following values added". Many online retailers like Scubatoys offer most or all of those "added" features like assembling and testing, registering, handling warranty issues, ensuring proper fit, and offering money back guarantee. And the mention of giving credit card to some unknown person in an out of state warehouse is a subtle scare tactic.

Martin2
07-07-2008, 09:43
Martin2, your shop is light years ahead of the one the thread was based upon but it is still somewhat misleading. By saying internet retailer prices are for unassembled untested gear and their prices are for "following values added". Many online retailers like Scubatoys offer most or all of those "added" features like assembling and testing, registering, handling warranty issues, ensuring proper fit, and offering money back guarantee. And the mention of giving credit card to some unknown person in an out of state warehouse is a subtle scare tactic.

Having worked with this shop personally, I doubt they intended it as a scare tactic. I absolutely love ST, but they are too far from me to ensure a proper fit. They are wonderful about listening, giving guidance, making recommendations, and sending multiple sizes if needed to get the best fit, but that doesn't always take the place of being able to actually try on gear, especially in the water. This isn't in any way a criticism of ST, just a limitation of online shopping in general. I don't know of any other online retailer that offers the customer service that ST does, and when I compare the statements to purchases made through other online retailers, I would agree that there is a degree of value added to working with them face to face. Whether or not that value added is worth the cost added is really up to the individual. But I've been very impressed that this LDS says, this is what we can do for you that most online retailers can't, but you need to make your own decision about the value of that service.

cgvmer
07-07-2008, 10:20
Martin2....which LDS is that? Where is it located?

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
07-07-2008, 10:29
I find this very interesting. This is the very same statement that an LDS around here uses. I wonder who is plagiarizing whom, or whether they got it from the same source...

awap
07-07-2008, 10:39
I'm appalled by their statements; however, I do feel compelled to share the other side. Just so we all take a moment to remember that not every LDS is like this one.

Here's 2 simple facts:
The internet direct sellers are selling dive gear at it's basic worth, unassembled, in the box....

While your LDSs approach is much better than many, The first "fact" quoted above is not entirely true. A number of internet sellers assemble, customize, and test gear before shipping. It is not a real major point in their overall message, which is quite good, but it does detract from an otherwise effective advertisement.

They are definately on a better track than those shops that would try to "deceive and punish" disloyal customers.

Martin2
07-07-2008, 10:39
Martin2....which LDS is that? Where is it located?

Nu Horizons in Myrtle Beach.

mike_s
07-07-2008, 11:23
what I find amazing is how some shop owners use the Internet (their shop sites and scuba forums) to bash Internet dive sales.


There was a somewhat recent thread on SE Tech-Diver about a shop in Nashville closing its doors. Other shop owners who didn't like it blamed the internet dive stores and internet sold gear (manufacturers that allow internet sales) for it closing. The IRONIC thing is where did they make all these statements? ON THE INTERNET.

fireflock
07-07-2008, 13:44
I find this very interesting. This is the very same statement that an LDS around here uses. I wonder who is plagiarizing whom, or whether they got it from the same source...

I _think_ it came from the shop in Raleigh first, and then it has been used in a number of places since. I can't say if it was used with or without permission. However, someone is lying about the examples since I doubt the exact same thing happened in all of these shops :smiley21:

I think it's great if they copy the attitude towards customer service. I wonder about them if they have to copy the text verbatim.

The internet direct sellers are selling dive gear at it's basic worth, unassembled, in the box. - Google Search (http://tinyurl.com/qml2f)

more:
NCDivers.com • View topic - Dive stuff that has me scratching my head - discuss (http://www.ncdivers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1314&p=16608&hilit=Nu+Horizons#p16608)

Rich

Bigg_Budd
07-07-2008, 13:55
10:12:58 PM
[View Source] (http://mailcenter3.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/487198400008D9ED000023302216527966CFCBCC9C9A01079D 9A0C?cmd=ShowSrc&no=1&uid=137237&sid=c0)
" A word about online sales...You should know: Because of liability, the best manufactures of diving and snorkeling equipment do not allow their products to be sold online. The other manufactures who do sell online --are not the best, and their products are simply not among the top choices available. The manufactures of the products most people prefer to own make a profit and have attorneys, and therefore won't sell online... The manufactures whose products are "less than preferred" are forced to sell anything they can, any way they can, against better judgment --and the consumer is usually the last one to know...We realize that you can not always buy the best and therefore we offer many different price ranges, but regardless, we would encourage you not to sell yourself short. We would also like to thank you for supporting your local dive center! "



Just so you know, your little moral business high ground quote hit a scuba forum and just reinforces the mindset that LDS elitist sales emphasis is what redirects business elsewhere; where a customer has a range of choices and a selection of products that can be researched, purchased for a value vs cost price without the pressure, hype and disingenuous sales tactics.

I don't live near your store but find that your business practice and focus reflect many LDS's and this is the primary reason that I shop online and have been very successful and happy with the equipment that I've purchased. It is nice to have a positive buying experience when purchasing equipment for the sport that I feel so passionate about and for this reason, I only go to my LDS for fills, classes, and as a last resort for items that are usually consumables. Keep up the sacred LDS business model while those who cater to value and customer service and just plain enthusiasm for the sport, reap the benefit...A Colorado Diver

Did they ever respond?

dinger340
07-08-2008, 05:36
Nope, and I didn't really expect them to...They are conditioned into the LDS perception and dialogue would take an open mind....

JCAT
07-08-2008, 06:27
Martin2....which LDS is that? Where is it located?

Nu Horizons in Myrtle Beach.

I've been in their shop before. Never used them as a charter, as their boat was out of commission last time I was down there. They have a nice indoor dive tower though.

diver 85
07-08-2008, 06:48
Just googled it and found out that IT'S MY LDS!!!!

Honestly, these guys are just fine person. They treat me very well, even though they KNOW that I buy all my major items from ScubaToys. Heck. They even let me use my ST Zeagle gear in their pool during my OW class.

I'll be going there tomorrow to get my tank (not purchased through them) filled and to return their rental tank.

You're giving them some of your business---tell them(if they 'mistreat' you) 'Now you get None'..............

Martin2
07-08-2008, 07:30
Martin2....which LDS is that? Where is it located?

Nu Horizons in Myrtle Beach.

I've been in their shop before. Never used them as a charter, as their boat was out of commission last time I was down there. They have a nice indoor dive tower though.

I believe they're running charters again this summer as long as there are enough divers to go.

mitsuguy
07-08-2008, 07:32
Other than dive equipment, is there anything else that has restrictions on online sales anymore?

I really can't think of anything I've ever tried to buy that I couldn't simply google for the best price, type in my CC info or Paypal, and expect it at my door a couple days later...

Except for scuba stuff... now all of a sudden, for certain brands, it's like it's forbidden to purchase (and the LDS doesn't always have it in stock either)...

fireflock
07-08-2008, 07:44
Other than dive equipment, is there anything else that has restrictions on online sales anymore?


I've run into a couple of things lately that are really similar to the dive industry. The long established no-internet sales brands aren't doing any better over there.

The first is Mountain Bikes. Go the the REI webpage and there are a few big brands where you have to go to the store in order to buy the bike. They're getting a lot of pressure from places like bikesdirect.com. It's interesting that the debate here has turned into LBS (local bike shop) vs internet, and the internet places are really local shops that have done something like what ST has done. The LBS crew uses the same arguments (fit, service, warranty) as the LDS folks do. Just like in the dive industry, there is probably a place for both service models since different customers like different things.

The second area is residential HVAC. The big brands (Trane Carrier) won't let you buy via any avenue except a full service full price dealer. This includes parts. Internet parts sources are popping up, and the largest volume selling brand is now Goodman, which allows parts and equipment sales to anyone. I was quoted $1200 last year to fix a HVAC problem. I bought a $99 part and fixed it myself with only a screwdriver and 15min. Of course I was told that I shouldn't do it myself as it could be deadly (CO gas) if I did it wrong so only a certified tech should open the unit. Sounds a bit like the dive industry at times, no?

Rich

blewgrass
07-09-2008, 00:47
Other than dive equipment, is there anything else that has restrictions on online sales anymore?


Great question. Taylor guitars used to forbid internet advertising.... they came around eventually. Rolex won't let an AD sell you a watch online. Costco is a "Grey" market dealer for Omega watches and many other items. Apparently they are bullies with their buying power. Christies will let you buy a Van Gough online if you got the cash, although the item is out of warranty!

fisheater
07-09-2008, 01:22
Other than dive equipment, is there anything else that has restrictions on online sales anymore?


Great question. . . . Christies will let you buy a Van Gough online if you got the cash, although the item is out of warranty!

Yeah. But that manufacturer was CRAZY! :smiley2:

fisheater
07-09-2008, 01:26
Just googled it and found out that IT'S MY LDS!!!!

Honestly, these guys are just fine person. They treat me very well, even though they KNOW that I buy all my major items from ScubaToys. Heck. They even let me use my ST Zeagle gear in their pool during my OW class.

I'll be going there tomorrow to get my tank (not purchased through them) filled and to return their rental tank.

You're giving them some of your business---tell them(if they 'mistreat' you) 'Now you get None'..............

They've been great to me. No need for any threats.

In fact, yesterday I had to be in court all morning through mid-afternoon (as an attorney) and couldn't do my usual drop off my HP tank on the way to lunch and pick it up afterwards, so they could let my tank cool and top it off for a full fill. So, the manager offered to fill it up and allow it to cool overnight for a morning top off, as he wasn't happy with giving me a hot fill. I picked it up today. Smiles all around.

obrules15
07-09-2008, 04:17
Other than dive equipment, is there anything else that has restrictions on online sales anymore?


Great question. . . . Christies will let you buy a Van Gough online if you got the cash, although the item is out of warranty!

Yeah. But that manufacturer was CRAZY! :smiley2:

:smilie39::smilie39::smilie39::smilie39::smilie39: :smilie39::smilie39::smilie39:

Vercingetorix
07-09-2008, 08:01
Even ST has some internet sales restrictions (set by manufacturer)
Atomic Mask, Dive Masks, Atomic, Atomic Mask (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=AtomicMasks)

CompuDude
07-09-2008, 15:04
Sad that what may very well be a perfectly good LDS would show themselves to be lying jerks by putting a paragraph like that up on their site. It's blatantly untrue, unless the ONLY thing their shop sells is ScubaPro, AquaLung and Atomic. Somehow I suspect they sell other brands... ALL of which allow online sales.

dinger340
07-11-2008, 14:51
Thanks for the note,

But that was not "hype and disingenuous sales tactics," rather, it was an attempt to honestly show behind the curtain. A notice that buyers should beware -- and yes, a good reason to support your local dive shop. I take it,whatever you do for a living it is not moral to promote the good service you provide. Not everybody is out to rip you off...too bad you feel that way.The reality is, the preferred choices among scuba manufacturers are advisedby their attorneys NOT to sell online....which means what IS online are theless-preferred products.I guess you will get what you get.


-----Original Message-----From: curious340@comcast.net (http://mailcenter3.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/4877B88500070CC2000014F72212059214CFCBCC9C9A01079D 9A0C?cmd=ComposeTo&adr=curious340%40comcast%2Enet&sid=c0) [mailto:curious340@comcast.net (http://mailcenter3.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/4877B88500070CC2000014F72212059214CFCBCC9C9A01079D 9A0C?cmd=ComposeTo&adr=curious340%40comcast%2Enet&sid=c0)] Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 9:13 PMTo: pdc-sr@sonic.net (http://mailcenter3.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/4877B88500070CC2000014F72212059214CFCBCC9C9A01079D 9A0C?cmd=ComposeTo&adr=pdc%2Dsr%40sonic%2Enet&sid=c0); pdc-n@sonic.net (http://mailcenter3.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/4877B88500070CC2000014F72212059214CFCBCC9C9A01079D 9A0C?cmd=ComposeTo&adr=pdc%2Dn%40sonic%2Enet&sid=c0)Subject: Thanks, but no thanks..."


A word about online sales...You should know: Because of liability, thebest manufactures of diving and snorkeling equipment do not allow theirproducts to be sold online. The other manufactures who do sell online --arenot the best, and their products are simply not among the top choicesavailable. The manufactures of the products most people prefer to own make aprofit and have attorneys, and therefore won't sell online... Themanufactures whose products are "less than preferred" are forced to sellanything they can, any way they can, against better judgment --and theconsumer is usually the last one to know...We realize that you can not always buy the best and therefore we offer manydifferent price ranges, but regardless, we would encourage you not to sellyourself short. We would also like to thank you for supporting your localdive center! "


Just so you know, your little moral business high ground quote hit a scubaforum and just reinforces the mindset that LDS elitist sales emphasis iswhat redirects business elsewhere; where a customer has a range of choicesand a selection of products that can be researched, purchased for a value vscost price without the pressure, hype and disingenuous sales tactics.I don't live near your store but find that your business practice and focusreflect many LDS's and this is the primary reason that I shop online andhave been very successful and happy with the equipment that I've purchased.
It is nice to have a positive buying experience when purchasing equipmentfor the sport that I feel so passionate about and for this reason, I only goto my LDS for fills, classes, and as a last resort for items that areusually consumables. Keep up the sacred LDS business model while those whocater to value and customer service and just plain enthusiasm for the sport,reap the benefit...A Colorado Diver

As suspected, this reply from the LDS shows just how entrenched the mindset is, choosing to personally attack my moral compass for calling them on the quote...

dinger340
07-11-2008, 15:05
Your attack on my moral compass for challenging your disingenuous quote shows the typical entrenched mindset of the LDS mentality. Service is in the doing, not in the saying or promising...I have a good LDS here in Colorado who I trust to work on my equipment. They are open minded in regards to working on gear that was purchased elsewhere for a more competitive price. When that store can match or beat another offer, I invariably will give them my business and will tend to spend a bit more money their way if the cost is reasonably close. I however, do not like overt high pressure sales tactics and denigrating one's equipment or skills/experience to generate a sale...The actions taken during what I do for a living are evident when taken and I find that reference in poor taste and not pertinent to the content and focus of my original email. What you shoud really do is work hard at establishing a loyal customer base through fair practice and competitve pricing and quit whining about those that are undercutting your sales numbers in the interests of furthering their business...