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detsgtdavis
07-24-2008, 19:18
Would you recommend this class!!!!

crpntr133
07-24-2008, 20:53
Yes, but be prepared.

CompuDude
07-24-2008, 20:56
Absolutely.

skdvr
07-24-2008, 21:35
I have never taken the class but would REALLY like to. One of my buddies just took it and thought it was by far the best course he had taken. He did a good write up of it on scubaboard. You can read it here (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/241121-fundamentals-better-diving-ed-gabe.html)if you like. If you have the opportunity to take it I would suggest that you do.

Phil

MSilvia
07-24-2008, 21:48
I would recommend it to some divers, but not to others. It mostly depends on their approach to diving and what they hope to get out of the class. It's a great learning opportunity, but I don't think it's right for everyone.

detsgtdavis
07-25-2008, 08:25
I think I am going to shoot for next spring to take the class. That way I will have some time to prepare mayself as much as possible. I think it will make me a much better diver.

Also I would like to get the Tec pass so I want to dive doubles.

Thanks for the comments.

Charles R
07-25-2008, 08:42
So a Few questions that might help people answer your question a little better.
1. How many Dive do you currently have?
2. What type of diving are you interested in doing (i.e. Tech, Cave, Wreck Penetration)?
3. What type of setup do you currently own/dive?

As far as do I recommend the course yes under certain conditions. You take the class to become a better diver not to get a GUE C card don't go into the class looking for a tech pass or rec pass just go into the class looking to learn. The class is very intense and you need to be prepared.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
07-25-2008, 09:41
Bill,

I *hear* that Bobby teaches an intro to tech class that covers many of the same things, is very intense, yet doesn't come packaged with all the GUE dogma, just the stuff that really makes sense. For example, I think your transpac and rec wing would be taboo for GUE, but would probably be OK for Bobby's class. He will want you to use a long hose, though. Not sure about all his requirements. IIRCC Rich (Fireflock) took Bobby's class, so perhaps he can comment.

detsgtdavis
07-25-2008, 13:56
I will contact both Bobby and Rich so I can get some more insight. But I am still thinking I want the Fundies.

LCF
07-27-2008, 05:24
I *hear* that Bobby teaches an intro to tech class that covers many of the same things, is very intense, yet doesn't come packaged with all the GUE dogma,

I would assume the person who wrote this hasn't taken Fundies. There was no "dogma" in my Fundies class. There WERE equipment requirements, as there are equipment requirements for almost all advanced classes.

Fundies is an excellent class, and I think virtually all divers would be well served to learn the skills that are taught in it. The equipment requirements do stop a fair number of people. You do NOT need to have ambitions toward technical diving to benefit from Fundies. Learning good buoyancy control, proper trim, non-silting propulsion, sharp emergency procedures and SMB deployment would benefit almost anybody who spend time underwater, I think. Learning better underwater communication and buddy skills wouldn't be a bad thing, either.

SlvrDragon50
07-27-2008, 12:40
Whats wrong with a TransPac?

Only difference is that it doesnt use a metal BP

fireflock
07-27-2008, 13:33
The class Joe is talking about is now TDI's Intro to Technical Diving Class. As designed, the class will take you 'as you are' in terms of skills and equipment, give you an assessment of where you are, and show you where you need to be to move into the TDI training sequence. The class was just starting out when I took it a few years ago, but now I guess it's taught by a number of people across the country. As usual, the quality of the instructor will probably have a pretty big impact on your experience.

My class covered buoyancy, trim, kicks, lift bags, buddy awareness, problem solving (under water), and a series of pretty standard drills (S-drill, OOA's, mask off, touch contact, etc...). It also has a theory section that introduces the mindset of a technical diver, along with gear recommendations.

Almost everyone can take the TDI class in the gear they have. My class of 3 divers had 1 backplate, 1 back inflate BC, 1 jacket BC, 1 drysuit, 2 wetsuits, 1 set of doubles, 2 singles, 2 long hoses, and 1 air2 (which was soon ditched after causing some OOA drill screw ups).

Like you often hear about the GUE class, I think the skills I picked up in the TDI class are useful for any diver. I'm not a tech diver, didn't plan to be before the TDI class, and don't plan to be now. I do think that solid skills can make diving more fun, and the TDI class was, for me, a way to learn some of them.

FWIW, I was signed up for GUE Fundies quite some time ago, when back-inflate BC's were still OK for the class, and before the TDI class existed. The shop sponsoring the GUE class didn't attract enough students, and the class I signed up for never took place. I think both classes attract at least some divers who want to learn more but don't have plans to dive past NDL's.

Rich

detsgtdavis
07-27-2008, 17:17
Rich,

Thanks for sharing that information. As I do more research I may shoot you an email with some question if that is ok.

fireflock
07-27-2008, 17:35
Fire away.

There are some class reviews/reports from Intro to Tech and
Fundies on ncdivers (search in the training section, I think)
if you're looking for reviews on local instructors.

I can also point you to a couple of divers who have taken both.

Rich

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
07-28-2008, 14:14
Whats wrong with a TransPac?

Only difference is that it doesnt use a metal BP

It's not Hogarthian. It has those deadly plastic buckles on the shoulder straps and the chest strap. It has too many D-rings, some dangerous padding and isn't made from one continuous piece of webbing. In other words its a death trap ;)

FWIW, I happen to dive a Hogarthian harness, except mine would fail muster because I have two hip D rings instead of just one.

From what I have seen, the GUE divers are usually some of the best around because they take diving so seriously. However, some of them go overboard and have a my way is the only right way philosophy. I would agree that their way is a right way. I disagree that it's the only right way.

Rileybri
07-28-2008, 14:31
I *hear* that Bobby teaches an intro to tech class that covers many of the same things, is very intense, yet doesn't come packaged with all the GUE dogma,

I would assume the person who wrote this hasn't taken Fundies. There was no "dogma" in my Fundies class. There WERE equipment requirements, as there are equipment requirements for almost all advanced classes.

Fundies is an excellent class, and I think virtually all divers would be well served to learn the skills that are taught in it. The equipment requirements do stop a fair number of people. You do NOT need to have ambitions toward technical diving to benefit from Fundies. Learning good buoyancy control, proper trim, non-silting propulsion, sharp emergency procedures and SMB deployment would benefit almost anybody who spend time underwater, I think. Learning better underwater communication and buddy skills wouldn't be a bad thing, either.

Just out of curoisity, what are the equipment requirement for this class? I know I am still along way off from taking "fundies" myself bum am looking forward to it down the road. The way I see the better prepared I can be now the better!

Cheers,

Brian D.

texdiveguy
07-28-2008, 14:52
I never have taken any GUE program,,,,,my rec training through DM is with PADI and all technical training through Adv. Trimix is TDI. I have heard mainly good things from all the divers I persl. know having taken the Fundies class, they all seem to feel it was a benefit to them in one aspect or another. Some continued to follow the GUE path while others took other agency directions for more advanced training. In our area of north Texas GUE is not an agency well represented in terms of instructors/student divers. I think if you find a good instructor from any of the major training agencies you can benefit by the program training regardless of what course title they label it. Remember also that the mastery of good form diving mainly comes by doing the dives, so regardless of your class selection you must get and stay in the water as much as possible. :)

CompuDude
07-30-2008, 01:24
Just out of curoisity, what are the equipment requirement for this class? I know I am still along way off from taking "fundies" myself bum am looking forward to it down the road. The way I see the better prepared I can be now the better!

That varies by instructor. Some of them are more flexible than others.

If you're going for a tech pass (meaning, you want to move forward to technical diving and continue taking more courses... you cannot take GUE's Tech 1 or other GUE technical courses without a tech pass), you must have double tanks, a backplate and wing, long hose regs, a canister light, and of course non-split fins (paddle fins, like Jet fins, although necessarily Jet fins).

For a recreational pass (rec pass), double tanks are not needed (single tanks are fine), and non-split fins (the kicks you need to learn will not work acceptably with split fins) are, too. Long hose regs and a bp/w are not always required... but you'll probably be wishing you had them before the class is over.

My instructor was among the more liberal (not that it applied to me), but there are instructors out there who will insist on a full DIR-compliant rig (regardless of doubles or singles) and won't accept you into their class without it, and there are others who are willing to teach you with nearly anything, assuming the minimums are met.

Incidentally, the time to get used to the new gear is many dives before the class, not during the class. Show up with a pile of gear that you've never tried out before, and you're not going to have fun.

fireflock
07-30-2008, 10:54
Gear requirements are listed on the bottom of this page:
GUE Fundamentals | Global Underwater Explorers (http://www.gue.com/?q=en/node/116)


Equipment Requirements

Each student should have, and be familiar with, all of the following required equipment.


Tanks/Cylinders: Students may use dual tanks/cylinders connected with a dual outlet isolator manifold, which allows for the use of two first-stages. Students may also use a single tank/cylinder with a K, H, or Y-valve.
Regulators: One of the second-stages must be on a 5- to 7-foot/1.5- to 2-meter hose. One of the first-stages must supply a pressure gauge and provide inflation for a dry suit (where applicable).
Backplate System: A rigid and flat platform, of metal construction with minimal padding, held to a diver by one continuous piece of nylon webbing. This webbing should be adjustable through the plate and should use a buckle to secure the system at the waist. A crotch strap attached to the lower end of this platform and looped through the waistband would prevent the system from riding up a diver's back. A knife should be secured to the waist on the left webbing tab. This webbing should support five D-rings; the first should be placed at the left hip, the second should be placed in line with a diver's right collarbone, the third should be placed in line with the diver's left collarbone, the fourth and fifth should be affixed to the crotch strap to use while scootering or towing/stowing gear. The harness below the diver's arms should have small restrictive bands to allow for the placement of reserve light powered by three in-line c-cell batteries (where necessary). The system should retain a minimalist approach with no unnecessary components.
Buoyancy Compensation Device: A diver's buoyancy compensation device should be back-mounted and minimalist in nature. It should come free of extraneous strings, tabs, or other material. There should be no restrictive bands or "bungee" of any sort affixed to the buoyancy cell. In addition, diver lift should not exceed 50lbs for a single tank and 80lbs for double tanks. Wing size and shape should be appropriate to the cylinder size(s) employed for training.
At least one depth-measuring device
At least one timekeeping device
Mask and fins: Mask should be low volume; fins should be rigid, non-split
At least one cutting device
Wet Notes
One spool with 100 feet/30 meters of line per diver
Exposure suit appropriate for the duration of exposure
Note: Prior to the commencement of class, students should consult with a GUE representative to verify equipment requirements. Whether or not a piece of equipment fulfills GUE's equipment requirement remains at the discretion of GUE and its instructor representatives. Participants are responsible for providing all equipment or for making provisions to secure the use of necessary equipment before the start of the course. In general, it is better for the student to learn while using his or her own equipment. However, students should exercise caution before purchasing new equipment to avoid acquiring substandard equipment. Please contact a GUE representative prior to making any purchases. Information about recommended equipment can be obtained from the equipment considerations section of GUE's web site.

Rileybri
07-30-2008, 10:58
Thanbks for the gear requirements info. It looks like I am well on my way to havinf the required gear. Its goign to be a wile till a can light enters my life but the rest is not far off at all!

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
07-30-2008, 11:14
I *hear* that Bobby teaches an intro to tech class that covers many of the same things, is very intense, yet doesn't come packaged with all the GUE dogma,

I would assume the person who wrote this hasn't taken Fundies. There was no "dogma" in my Fundies class. There WERE equipment requirements, as there are equipment requirements for almost all advanced classes.

Fundies is an excellent class, and I think virtually all divers would be well served to learn the skills that are taught in it. The equipment requirements do stop a fair number of people. You do NOT need to have ambitions toward technical diving to benefit from Fundies. Learning good buoyancy control, proper trim, non-silting propulsion, sharp emergency procedures and SMB deployment would benefit almost anybody who spend time underwater, I think. Learning better underwater communication and buddy skills wouldn't be a bad thing, either.

I agree with everything you say, except that I believe SOME of the equipment requirements are dogmatic with insufficient justification.

You are right that I did not take the class. I chose not to do so because of the equipment requirement for having 5 D-rings. I don't use split fins, I use a SS BP, un-bungeed wing appropriately sized for my cylinder. I use the long hose and a low volume mask. My harness is a continuous piece of webbing. OK, so far. Even though I have made the above choices, making them a requirement seems a bit dogmatic. But then telling me I can't have two hip D-rings just reeks of dogmatism that I refuse accept. Unified team concept, or not.

RecInstr
07-30-2008, 11:22
Whats wrong with a TransPac?

Only difference is that it doesnt use a metal BP

It's not Hogarthian. It has those deadly plastic buckles on the shoulder straps and the chest strap. It has too many D-rings, some dangerous padding and isn't made from one continuous piece of webbing. In other words its a death trap ;)




Ok, help me out here....I have made many, many dives in these "Death Traps" since I started diving in 1983.....Granted, none of them technical (on purpose ;-), but a lot of dives, none the less. I have never heard of, nevermind had, a plastic buckle fail in any way.
Has anyone here had that happen to them? What were the consequences?

"dangerous padding"? Could you explain that a little? Will this padding somehow affect a diver's performance in an emergency? If so, how? I am always wanting to learn new things....Seriously...

I respect you DIR guys, I really do. In fact, I set up a Hog rig for myself just recently (step by step from the gue website's equipment page), and I like it a lot - Much more than any BC I ever wore....But I think calling a traditional BCD (back-inflate or otherwise) a "Death Trap"
may be a bit harsh, don't ya think? Especially when they are used as they are designed - for RECREATIONAL SCUBA Diving.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
07-30-2008, 11:45
I don't think its a death trap. My response was a satire of what I think are silly requirements. Hence the ;) emoticon.

RecInstr
07-30-2008, 12:02
Oh! My apologies then. ;-)

CompuDude
07-30-2008, 16:25
I *hear* that Bobby teaches an intro to tech class that covers many of the same things, is very intense, yet doesn't come packaged with all the GUE dogma,

I would assume the person who wrote this hasn't taken Fundies. There was no "dogma" in my Fundies class. There WERE equipment requirements, as there are equipment requirements for almost all advanced classes.

Fundies is an excellent class, and I think virtually all divers would be well served to learn the skills that are taught in it. The equipment requirements do stop a fair number of people. You do NOT need to have ambitions toward technical diving to benefit from Fundies. Learning good buoyancy control, proper trim, non-silting propulsion, sharp emergency procedures and SMB deployment would benefit almost anybody who spend time underwater, I think. Learning better underwater communication and buddy skills wouldn't be a bad thing, either.

I agree with everything you say, except that I believe SOME of the equipment requirements are dogmatic with insufficient justification.

You are right that I did not take the class. I chose not to do so because of the equipment requirement for having 5 D-rings. I don't use split fins, I use a SS BP, un-bungeed wing appropriately sized for my cylinder. I use the long hose and a low volume mask. My harness is a continuous piece of webbing. OK, so far. Even though I have made the above choices, making them a requirement seems a bit dogmatic. But then telling me I can't have two hip D-rings just reeks of dogmatism that I refuse accept. Unified team concept, or not.

A GUE instructor said you couldn't take his course because you had two hip D-rings?

That falls under the category of instructor privilege, but few instructors are that strict, at least, at the Fundies level. My instructor would not have had any issue with you having a second D-ring on your hip, nor would most, I suspect. I can think of a small handful that probably would, so perhaps you had the misfortune to run into one of them.

The only real issue with having that second d-ring is can light placement... but if you're not going for a tech pass, and don't have a can light, what does it matter?

If you're talking about actual tech courses, then the team concept is enforced more rigidly. But you should not have been prevented from taking Fundies because of an extra D-ring.

detsgtdavis
08-01-2008, 19:14
Thanks everyone for posting. Some stuff that I have gotten from the comments here and other boards.

What I think is the most important thing is the instuctor!!!!!! No matter what the training organization.

Second before people just start taking classes they should get off the internet and do some diving. Diving=expereince.

Third I think we should put some thought into what we are trying to acheive through training and the types of dives we are interested in.

So GUE Fundies Tec pass is for me, based on what I have read and the few people I have spoken to.

MSilvia
08-01-2008, 21:41
The only real issue with having that second d-ring is can light placement... but if you're not going for a tech pass, and don't have a can light, what does it matter?
It matters because anything clipped to a right hip d-ring could interfere with clean deployment of the primary hose in an air share. There are reasons for the "dogma"... it's not just a bunch of arbitrary rules designed to assimilate people into some sort of cult.

Frankly, the satire seems like it's based on popular misconception. It certainly doesn't jibe with my experience with GUE training. My instructor, for example, was willing to let me take the class in a Transpac, which I would have if a great deal on a backplate hadn't come up. Of course, if you aren't willing to accept that there might be good reasons to do things differently than you already do, there's no reason to take the class.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
08-02-2008, 05:52
The only real issue with having that second d-ring is can light placement... but if you're not going for a tech pass, and don't have a can light, what does it matter?
It matters because anything clipped to a right hip d-ring could interfere with clean deployment of the primary hose in an air share. There are reasons for the "dogma"... it's not just a bunch of arbitrary rules designed to assimilate people into some sort of cult.

Frankly, the satire seems like it's based on popular misconception. It certainly doesn't jibe with my experience with GUE training. My instructor, for example, was willing to let me take the class in a Transpac, which I would have if a great deal on a backplate hadn't come up. Of course, if you aren't willing to accept that there might be good reasons to do things differently than you already do, there's no reason to take the class.


Good point on the air - share. However, I use a 5 foot hose and no can light. Maybe I'm not imaginative enough, but I don't see how something normal clipped there could possibly interfere with air sharing.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
08-02-2008, 06:01
Thanks everyone for posting. Some stuff that I have gotten from the comments here and other boards.

What I think is the most important thing is the instuctor!!!!!! No matter what the training organization.

Second before people just start taking classes they should get off the internet and do some diving. Diving=expereince.

Third I think we should put some thought into what we are trying to acheive through training and the types of dives we are interested in.

So GUE Fundies Tec pass is for me, based on what I have read and the few people I have spoken to.

Bill, If you can find a reasonable instructor, I'd be willing to take GUE-F with you in the spring if I can swing it.

detsgtdavis
08-02-2008, 20:02
Cool...Next spring is when I am looking to take the class so that gives us plenty of time to see who is close by and reasonable. There is another class I am interested in taking. I will get up with you later about that one.

in_cavediver
08-02-2008, 20:31
The only real issue with having that second d-ring is can light placement... but if you're not going for a tech pass, and don't have a can light, what does it matter?
It matters because anything clipped to a right hip d-ring could interfere with clean deployment of the primary hose in an air share. There are reasons for the "dogma"... it's not just a bunch of arbitrary rules designed to assimilate people into some sort of cult.

Frankly, the satire seems like it's based on popular misconception. It certainly doesn't jibe with my experience with GUE training. My instructor, for example, was willing to let me take the class in a Transpac, which I would have if a great deal on a backplate hadn't come up. Of course, if you aren't willing to accept that there might be good reasons to do things differently than you already do, there's no reason to take the class.

I just want to add one point and this is where the problems can show up.

Yes, GUE has a reason for what they say. That said, there are many other, equally experienced divers out there who do the same types of dives and have completely different opinions on the matter and they too have valid reasons for what they say.

If you can understand that the GUE method is only one of several ways to accomplish the same goal you'll be fine. Also, frankly speaking, the GUE method is not superior to all of the other methods. It has good and bad parts just like everything else. The problem is too many people out there on the internet expouse the 'this is the only/best/correct/safe way'. You'll also find these to be those people who are 'just learning' to do said dives rather than those who have been around a while doing it.

I am not bashing GUE. They have good training. The fundies class is somewhat unique and from everything I have read over the years, would be a benefit to *any* rec diver. They just aren't the only game in town to serve as a means to your goals. You should look to find your best match for future training beyond fundies.

CompuDude
08-04-2008, 20:06
The only real issue with having that second d-ring is can light placement... but if you're not going for a tech pass, and don't have a can light, what does it matter?
It matters because anything clipped to a right hip d-ring could interfere with clean deployment of the primary hose in an air share. There are reasons for the "dogma"... it's not just a bunch of arbitrary rules designed to assimilate people into some sort of cult.

Frankly, the satire seems like it's based on popular misconception. It certainly doesn't jibe with my experience with GUE training. My instructor, for example, was willing to let me take the class in a Transpac, which I would have if a great deal on a backplate hadn't come up. Of course, if you aren't willing to accept that there might be good reasons to do things differently than you already do, there's no reason to take the class.

Having a D-ring there, and having something clipped off to it, are two different things.