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NZarathustra
07-28-2008, 13:24
Just long-winded whingeing... but it really bugs me when I see people bashing PADI, or intimating that, because you're certified by PADI, you're a less-capable diver (and yes, for the record, I'm certified by PADI).

The last time I was out diving, it was with with an insta-buddy duo, who were certified by the oh-so-much-better NAUI. At the end of the dive when we were going back to shore, buddy #1, who was the lead diver, drifted off the guideline we were supposed to be following and ditched us in low-viz conditions in the middle of the lake because he wasn't checking to make sure buddy #2 was nearby. Speaking of, after buddy #2 and I surfaced after the requisite 1 minute impromptu search & recovery mission, he thought it was the greatest idea in the world when I suggested we take a compass reading before going back under for the swim in (foregoing the pleasure of watching buddy #1 continue to get berated by the Divemaster). But I don't go around saying that NAUI stands for Not Another Underwater Idiot.

That was my third dive that day. On my second dive, I was out with my instructor when some SSI-certified (yes, certified!!!) divers from another LDS came along. One of them stepped on my head with their fin, then kicked me in the back while yelling at me through her regulator because I was in her way, and two of them actually hauled themselves down my instructor's dive flag rope because they'd lost control of their buoyancy. But I don't go around saying that SSI stands for Subpar SCUBA Instruction.

I'm a new diver (and new here), but it seems to me that the quality of instruction is more dependent on the quality of the instructor than it is on which certification agency you get your C-Card from... and, in any case, a diver's ability is measured more on how good they want to get, how regularly they dive and what they do to improve themselves, not only when they are diving, but when they aren't... not on whether or not they're certified by PADI or NAUI or SSI or whoever (within reason, of course).

I'm not naive to the ways of the Internet, and I assume that there's probably some good-natured rivalry between PADI divers and NAUI divers, like there are between branches of the armed forces... and I don't have a problem with it as long as it's good-natured. But when I see people whose opinions and/or abilities are automatically discounted because of the issuer of their C-Card, it ceases to become good-natured and starts to become elitism. We're all divers... we all choose to spend whatever time we can in an environment where we need life-support equipment... so we've all got that commonality, and (IMO) we should spend time helping each other improve, and leave the cert bashing behind.

That's why I like this board... there's a good group of people here, and the garbage is kept to a minimum. I definitely feel more comfortable here, and I appreciate that. So thanks, Larry & Mods, for running a good board.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading.

Cheers.

pir8
07-28-2008, 13:37
Nice to hear one for the other side once in awhile.

Foo2
07-28-2008, 13:40
Welcome to the ST forum!!!

As for the PADI bashing...the only kind you'll see around here is completely good natured and all in fun. Try not to take anything that you see personally. We are all friends on this forum and many of us dive together, regardless of the certifying agency. BTW, I was certified by the "oh-so-much-better NAUI" ;)

mchain
07-28-2008, 13:45
You are absolutely right, I've seen good and bad divers from all sorts of agencies. I agree that a quality instructor is much more important.

Barberman
07-28-2008, 13:48
I agree with OP. I'm am Padi AOW certified and glad that is the agency I went with. I do think it matters on the instructor more though than the agency. I've seen competent and incompetent divers from all different agencies. Thanks though for speaking your mind on the subject!

chinacat46
07-28-2008, 13:56
Also realize that PADI is the biggest and people always like to pick on the biggest. Have you ever bashed Microshaft or Itty Bitty Machines? Just don't let it get to you.

NZarathustra
07-28-2008, 14:18
Sorry, I should have been more clear... I haven't seen any serious org bashing on this board (which is one of the reasons I like it)... I was talking about the "other" one.

Barberman
07-28-2008, 14:21
and what SCUBA message BOARD site would you be referring to?:-)

crgjpg
07-28-2008, 14:22
I agree with the OP. I also believe that for the most part everyone is friendly here, but I have not seen any agency but PADI being critized. I have seen PADI critizied as wanting money and for the distinctive specilaties that others have come across.

roofless
07-28-2008, 14:39
More retarded macho bullsh*t if you ask me. That mentality reminds me of a guy I ran across fishing in the bay once. We had the canopy up & he called it a "sissy top". We saw him at the end of the day and he was burnt beat red. Smart fellow that one. My buddy saw the same guy again waiting in line to put-in at the dock. It was raining & everyone - except him - had their canopy up.

Some people just have the need to degrade others while attempting to elevate themselves. One of many rampant psychoses.

I've taken both PADI & SSI courses.

The only really acceptable PADI jokes are in reference to their specialty certifications, which imo, are valid jokes.

Brandon Belew
07-28-2008, 14:41
I agree with the OP. I also believe that for the most part everyone is friendly here, but I have not seen any agency but PADI being critized. I have seen PADI critizied as wanting money and for the distinctive specilaties that others have come across.

You mean PADI ( Put Another Dollar In ) :smiley36: I've put quite a few dollars in personally.

bassplayer
07-28-2008, 14:43
"Not Another Underwater Idiot" love that one :smilie39: (NAUI diver here)

Yes, I agree, its about the diver/instructor not the c-card. I think this has been hashed and re-hashed to death here.

Thanks for the humorous account!

mm2002
07-28-2008, 15:35
I have met and dove with 7 members of this forum so far, and have had nothing but great dives, and fun times. Funny thing is, I have no idea which organization any of them hold certs with. Never thought or cared to ask. BTW, I Put Another Dollar In every chance I get!:smiley36:

xring
07-28-2008, 15:53
It’s been quite a while since I was certified but it doesn’t surprise me that the certification agency wars are still going on.
When I got certified I chose the instructor because of her reputation not the agency. I didn’t even know there were different agencies. At that time 1988 a friend of mine was being certified at another location and by another agency. His instructor was closely associated to a dive shop and a lot of class time was dedicated to “informing” them of the quality equipment their shop sold.

My instructor was more of a subcontractor that spent almost no time on equipment brands during class except to make sure your mask fits right & buy name brand stuff. After class she would give equipment opinions but that was usually at a local watering hole. My wife and I both had a good experience and felt confident when we began diving. We also ended up with an eclectic array of equipment chosen by personal preference. My friend ended up a good diver however his wife was certified but never had much confidence in her abilities and she always seemed frightened. But they were outfitted head to toe with matching Sherwood equipment. (not that Sherwood is bad)

I’ve seen lots of hack divers in many certifications.
I assume instructor quality varies with each individual but I never liked being sold to by my instructor in any venue. I always assume that the “student” won’t buy a bunch of new equipment if they fail their certification & this could affect the quality of diver I may need to rely on.


xring

digitalman
07-28-2008, 16:33
I too chose my instruction based on instructor, not agency. I am both PADI and NAUI certified through the same shop, depending on what I want to get out of the speciality.

livinoz
07-28-2008, 16:38
I agree that the quality of the instructor is the most important thing, not the agency, as is quite obvious from your very amusing account! Thanks for sharing that.

SlvrDragon50
07-28-2008, 16:51
Heh

My instructor says the same thing about Agency bashing..

But really, all those multiple PADI certs are ridiculous..

NZarathustra
07-28-2008, 16:55
I agree that the quality of the instructor is the most important thing, not the agency, as is quite obvious from your very amusing account! Thanks for sharing that.

Hey, since you're from Oz, can I ask you something? I read somewhere that the PADI shops in Oz guarantee that you'll pass your OW cert or they'll give you your money back. However, not believing anything on the internet ever... can you tell me if that's the case?

livinoz
07-28-2008, 17:01
I agree that the quality of the instructor is the most important thing, not the agency, as is quite obvious from your very amusing account! Thanks for sharing that.

Hey, since you're from Oz, can I ask you something? I read somewhere that the PADI shops in Oz guarantee that you'll pass your OW cert or they'll give you your money back. However, not believing anything on the internet ever... can you tell me if that's the case?

I can't speak generally, but I know there are a few unscrupulous lds in some places (world-wide). For myself, I never saw that in my training; my instructor was the only one who decided if I was competent to receive my certification or not. I do know some places place pressure on the instructor to "pass" students because of their limited time and the almighty tourist $, but most professionals I've talked to strongly resist that.

Brandon Belew
07-28-2008, 17:13
I agree that the quality of the instructor is the most important thing, not the agency, as is quite obvious from your very amusing account! Thanks for sharing that.

Hey, since you're from Oz, can I ask you something? I read somewhere that the PADI shops in Oz guarantee that you'll pass your OW cert or they'll give you your money back. However, not believing anything on the internet ever... can you tell me if that's the case?

Our club here will keep letting you take the course until you pass at no charge; it's taken some people 5+ years. One women for example was afraid of water, took her around 5 years to finally get into the water and take the course.

Never heard of any instructors giving your money back though..

Don Wray
07-28-2008, 17:57
Heh

My instructor says the same thing about Agency bashing..

But really, all those multiple PADI certs are ridiculous..

You may be right, but then again, if people didn't want the class, would there be a cert? Instructors with PADI can design a course that will sell in their area and get it approved ex. Whale shark diving. Now here in Mississippi, there's not much call for that one. There are no requirements to take distinctive specialties, so there must be a market. The normal specialties are the same ones offered by all the agencies.

mm2002
07-28-2008, 18:22
Our club here will keep letting you take the course until you pass at no charge; it's taken some people 5+ years. One women for example was afraid of water, took her around 5 years to finally get into the water and take the course.

Never heard of any instructors giving your money back though..


That's exactly how our LDS operates, and I think it's a good thing. The folks here don't rush you to get the card, and until you show them the skills necessary to be a RELATIVELY safe diver, you won't get the card.

Now, about my use of the term "RELATIVELY"......

My one single complaint (looking back) would have to be that they really didn't spend any time on some of the things I think all new divers should be educated about in a little more detail, in order to be TRULY safe divers.
My personal examples are:

1. Buoyancy and trim control.
2. Equipment, and a little more technical knowledge. (how stuff works)
3. Hand signals, and general buddy skills.
4. Safety stops, and the practice of safe ascents in general.
5. General diving health, and physiology.

None of those topics were covered in my OW training, or at least not in any detail.....just enough to pass the exams and check out dives. When I got my OW card, I'll have to admit that I was a pretty sloppy diver. RELATIVELY SAFE?.....maybe.....but damn sloppy!!! I definitely wasn't ready for some of the dives I've done since. I've honestly learned more from trial and error than I ever learned in OW class.

Is this a fault of PADI or the instructors? I don't think so, but I don't know exactly what some of the other certifying agencies require to be a "RELATIVELY" safe OW diver. I do know that from what I've heard, my PADI instructors were a little on the tough side, and quite frankly, that's a bit scary.

Zenagirl
07-28-2008, 18:32
We were certified by PADI, but our instructor was both NAUI and PADI and the only reason we went PADI was because we had gotten the OW material on CD free (copied from someone we knew) and didn't see the point of buying NAUI books. ;)

I have to agree 100% that the agency bashing gets really old, fast. Anyone who can't see that the quality about training is all about the quality of the instructor simply can't see the forest for the trees. Also, I think it's rather cool that PADI allows places to develop distinctive specialties. Sure, it's a money maker for PADI, but even more than that, it's a money maker for the dive shop that sponsors it. Come on, you don't think that Stuart Cove in the Bahamas offering a Shark Diving Specialty doesn't make a ton of money on that one??

Personally I don't care and don't ask which agency name is on someone's C-card, their diving ability is judged by their in-water performance, not their certification level.

navyhmc
07-28-2008, 18:33
I like others have definitiely put my share of dollars into PADI. I started out in YMCA world so it's no big deal to me. as others have said, it's not the card it's the instructor and the diver that make the difference.

There are those who have an inflated opinion of their certifiying agency and they usually weed themselves out quickly as after a while the only ones that will dive with them are others of the same mind set and those folks are few and hopefull far between. And then again, those of this nature usually have problems with others of the same nature.

I really don't care who certified you, as long as you're a safe diver you're ok in my book.

Splitlip
07-28-2008, 18:40
I agree with OP. :smiley20:


because you're certified by PADI, you're a less-capable diver.

Cheers.

mm2002
07-28-2008, 18:55
I agree with OP. :smiley20:


So, you agree with OP? Not sure I understand exactly what you're agreeing with. Orange Pekoe possibly? I love that stuff too! :smiley36:

OP

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op#searchInput)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Wiktionary-logo-en.png/50px-Wiktionary-logo-en.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wiktionary-logo-en.png)

Look up OP (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/OP), op (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/op), op. (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/op.) in Wiktionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary), the free dictionary.

OP or Op may refer to:

Ordo Praedicatorum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Praedicatorum), the Dominican Order
Observation post (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observation_post)
Ocean Pacific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_Pacific)
One Piece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Piece), a Japanese manga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga) and anime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime) created by Eiichiro Oda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiichiro_Oda).
Op art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op_art)
Operator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operator)
Optimus Prime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Prime)
Opus number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_number) (usually classical music)
Orange Pekoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Pekoe)
Oratory Preparatory School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oratory_Preparatory_School)
Osteoporosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteoporosis)
Osteitis pubis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteitis_pubis), commonly called OP in Australia
Overall Position (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overall_Position), the grade appointed to Queensland high-school graduates

Splitlip
07-28-2008, 19:07
:moon:



I agree with OP. :smiley20:


So, you agree with OP? Not sure I understand exactly what you're agreeing with. Orange Pekoe possibly? I love that stuff too! :smiley36:

OP

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op#searchInput)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Wiktionary-logo-en.png/50px-Wiktionary-logo-en.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wiktionary-logo-en.png)

Look up OP (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/OP), op (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/op), op. (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/op.) in Wiktionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiktionary), the free dictionary.

OP or Op may refer to:

Ordo Praedicatorum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Praedicatorum), the Dominican Order
Observation post (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observation_post)
Ocean Pacific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_Pacific)
One Piece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Piece), a Japanese manga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga) and anime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime) created by Eiichiro Oda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiichiro_Oda).
Op art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op_art)
Operator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operator)
Optimus Prime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Prime)
Opus number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_number) (usually classical music)
Orange Pekoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Pekoe)
Oratory Preparatory School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oratory_Preparatory_School)
Osteoporosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteoporosis)
Osteitis pubis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteitis_pubis), commonly called OP in Australia
Overall Position (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overall_Position), the grade appointed to Queensland high-school graduates

Vercingetorix
07-28-2008, 19:12
:moon:
Timmy...Timmy...Timmy...

What are we to do with you?

Every time I think we've gone as low as we can go, you lower the bar another notch...:smiley36::smiley36::smiley36:

chinacat46
07-28-2008, 19:13
Was that a moon over jupiter?

Splitlip
07-28-2008, 19:16
Sorry guys. I lost my head.

navyhmc
07-28-2008, 19:23
Sorry guys. I lost my head.

Umm...That wasn't your head that was lost...:smiley11::smilie39::smilie39:

mm2002
07-28-2008, 19:24
Hey, you guys let me deal with Tim. He's my cousin, and I know how to handle him.

navyhmc
07-28-2008, 19:26
If he's doing things like that, do you really want to "Handle Him"?:smilie39: :smiley36: :smiley29:

Splitlip
07-28-2008, 19:29
If he's doing things like that, do you really want to "Handle Him"?:smilie39: :smiley36: :smiley29:
I usually tell him he has 15 minutes to stop. Or else!

mm2002
07-28-2008, 19:46
If he's doing things like that, do you really want to "Handle Him"?:smilie39: :smiley36: :smiley29:
I usually tell him he has 15 minutes to stop. Or else!


Yep. And I can pretty much be done in 15 minutes, so the time limit isn't a big deal to me.

navyhmc
07-28-2008, 20:17
Good night everybody!!!!

We have now entered the "Too MUCH Information Zone"

mm2002
07-28-2008, 20:38
Good night everybody!!!!

We have now entered the "Too MUCH Information Zone"

Oh, c'mon dude.....this isn't even getting started yet! :smiley36:

navyhmc
07-28-2008, 20:57
Good night everybody!!!!

We have now entered the "Too MUCH Information Zone"

Oh, c'mon dude.....this isn't even getting started yet! :smiley36:

That's what frightens me the most!!!! :smilie40::smiley36:

drako
07-28-2008, 20:57
To keep with the original thread ;)
I have found the best way to approach dving instruction (and more importantly LIFE) is to use common sense and know that you can always learn from someone else. Also when your arrogant....you die.
When I graduated high school I was going to enroll in a private or state university but I chose to go to a community college here in Miami. Simply because the professors there either quit the private schools because of intense pressure of writing research papers and less time to teach or they still teach there and teach part time. I came out of it with a better experience of it all and with professors (and students) who wanted to learn.

To bring it home I am signed up now in a PADI course for nitrox, I stepped in and stayed for the open water courses that my friends were taking to compare it to my SSI certification. My instructor is young but knowlegeble and brings a different light to diving that my older instructor for SSI did not touch on. So whats the difference? Both provided valuble information and its important to go beyond the "face" of the diving association and actually get down to know the instructors.

sravin1
07-28-2008, 21:48
Our club here will keep letting you take the course until you pass at no charge; it's taken some people 5+ years. One women for example was afraid of water, took her around 5 years to finally get into the water and take the course.

Never heard of any instructors giving your money back though..


That's exactly how our LDS operates, and I think it's a good thing. The folks here don't rush you to get the card, and until you show them the skills necessary to be a RELATIVELY safe diver, you won't get the card.

Now, about my use of the term "RELATIVELY"......

My one single complaint (looking back) would have to be that they really didn't spend any time on some of the things I think all new divers should be educated about in a little more detail, in order to be TRULY safe divers.
My personal examples are:

1. Buoyancy and trim control.
2. Equipment, and a little more technical knowledge. (how stuff works)
3. Hand signals, and general buddy skills.
4. Safety stops, and the practice of safe ascents in general.
5. General diving health, and physiology.

None of those topics were covered in my OW training, or at least not in any detail.....just enough to pass the exams and check out dives. When I got my OW card, I'll have to admit that I was a pretty sloppy diver. RELATIVELY SAFE?.....maybe.....but damn sloppy!!! I definitely wasn't ready for some of the dives I've done since. I've honestly learned more from trial and error than I ever learned in OW class.

Is this a fault of PADI or the instructors? I don't think so, but I don't know exactly what some of the other certifying agencies require to be a "RELATIVELY" safe OW diver. I do know that from what I've heard, my PADI instructors were a little on the tough side, and quite frankly, that's a bit scary.


My 10 week YMCA course covered all that. I dont intend to bash any organization, but IMO the tourist centers do not spend enough time on people to educate them about everything they need to know. I do agree that there are a lot of dive shops with quality instructors, but unfortunately both types of PADI do exist....

Sasha_K
07-28-2008, 22:15
wow, 7 posts in and flaming already :-)

Just kidding. Welcome to the board.

pir8
07-28-2008, 22:16
Our club here will keep letting you take the course until you pass at no charge; it's taken some people 5+ years. One women for example was afraid of water, took her around 5 years to finally get into the water and take the course.

Never heard of any instructors giving your money back though..


That's exactly how our LDS operates, and I think it's a good thing. The folks here don't rush you to get the card, and until you show them the skills necessary to be a RELATIVELY safe diver, you won't get the card.

Now, about my use of the term "RELATIVELY"......

My one single complaint (looking back) would have to be that they really didn't spend any time on some of the things I think all new divers should be educated about in a little more detail, in order to be TRULY safe divers.
My personal examples are:

1. Buoyancy and trim control.
2. Equipment, and a little more technical knowledge. (how stuff works)
3. Hand signals, and general buddy skills.
4. Safety stops, and the practice of safe ascents in general.
5. General diving health, and physiology.

None of those topics were covered in my OW training, or at least not in any detail.....just enough to pass the exams and check out dives. When I got my OW card, I'll have to admit that I was a pretty sloppy diver. RELATIVELY SAFE?.....maybe.....but damn sloppy!!! I definitely wasn't ready for some of the dives I've done since. I've honestly learned more from trial and error than I ever learned in OW class.

Is this a fault of PADI or the instructors? I don't think so, but I don't know exactly what some of the other certifying agencies require to be a "RELATIVELY" safe OW diver. I do know that from what I've heard, my PADI instructors were a little on the tough side, and quite frankly, that's a bit scary.


My 10 week YMCA course covered all that. I dont intend to bash any organization, but IMO the tourist centers do not spend enough time on people to educate them about everything they need to know. I do agree that there are a lot of dive shops with quality instructors, but unfortunately both types of PADI do exist....
I think the point was both types exist in every agency, not just PADI!!!

Largo
07-28-2008, 22:30
I think that PADI is experiencing a backlash from their popularity in the 1980s - 1990s, due to the 'America Loves an Underdog' factor.

NAUI (a non-profit) had some poor leadership in the 1980s, and almost stopped operating. They got an infusion of leadership in the late 1980s, early 1990s and started to come back.

My first instructor was PADI, and he was a jerk who was always trying to nickel and dime me to death. The second was NAUI, and gave me some sweet deals on gear and lessons.

That's colored my impressions, but I do believe that agency is irrelevant and that the Instructor is the important thing.

freeski4ever
07-29-2008, 00:19
Does it really matter?? Just go dive and have fun.

Vercingetorix
07-29-2008, 07:02
but it seems to me that the quality of instruction is more dependent on the quality of the instructor than it is on which certification agency you get your C-Card from... and, in any case, a diver's ability is measured more on how good they want to get, how regularly they dive and what they do to improve themselves, not only when they are diving, but when they aren't... not on whether or not they're certified by PADI or NAUI or SSI or whoever (within reason, of course).Herein lies the crux of the matter in a simple, eloquent statement. Well spoken...:smiley20:

oddbod
07-29-2008, 07:21
I agree that the quality of the instructor is the most important thing, not the agency, as is quite obvious from your very amusing account! Thanks for sharing that.

Hey, since you're from Oz, can I ask you something? I read somewhere that the PADI shops in Oz guarantee that you'll pass your OW cert or they'll give you your money back. However, not believing anything on the internet ever... can you tell me if that's the case?

Our club here will keep letting you take the course until you pass at no charge; it's taken some people 5+ years. One women for example was afraid of water, took her around 5 years to finally get into the water and take the course.

Never heard of any instructors giving your money back though..

Some won't let you fail as they don't have a refund policy:urinate:

That's exactly how our LDS operates, and I think it's a good thing. The folks here don't rush you to get the card, and until you show them the skills necessary to be a RELATIVELY safe diver, you won't get the card.

Now, about my use of the term "RELATIVELY"......

My one single complaint (looking back) would have to be that they really didn't spend any time on some of the things I think all new divers should be educated about in a little more detail, in order to be TRULY safe divers.
My personal examples are:

1. Buoyancy and trim control.
2. Equipment, and a little more technical knowledge. (how stuff works)
3. Hand signals, and general buddy skills.
4. Safety stops, and the practice of safe ascents in general.
5. General diving health, and physiology.

None of those topics were covered in my OW training, or at least not in any detail.....just enough to pass the exams and check out dives. When I got my OW card, I'll have to admit that I was a pretty sloppy diver. RELATIVELY SAFE?.....maybe.....but damn sloppy!!! I definitely wasn't ready for some of the dives I've done since. I've honestly learned more from trial and error than I ever learned in OW class.

Is this a fault of PADI or the instructors? I don't think so, but I don't know exactly what some of the other certifying agencies require to be a "RELATIVELY" safe OW diver. I do know that from what I've heard, my PADI instructors were a little on the tough side, and quite frankly, that's a bit scary.[/quote]

The reason is they cover all those in their specialty courses that you have to Put Another Dollar In for:smiley35:

Eurodiver
07-29-2008, 07:31
I have a friend who owns a dive shop in Spain. Have mentioned him before.
He is a PADI instructor, NAUI certified {just finished instructor} and SSI {just open water} been diving for 19 years.
In his dive shop there are 3 owners
Tom, Jordi and Chicky {can't remember her name}
But they have other instructors One teaches PADI, one NAUI, and the other SSI. Just so they have all bases covered.
But Tom once told me that it doesn't matter what you are PADI, NAUI or SSI as long as you know your stuff in the water. Then he also said that you will find die hard fanatics they swear one is better than the other. He said to ignore those anal people and just go have fun diving no matter what you decide to be. Because that is what it is all about.
I couldn't agree with him more.
I am PADI and I am about to take the AOW and when I went through the OW last year I hated the fin pivot thing still do. I managed to do it for the course and every time I get in the water I will go to the platform and practice it. After a year of diving I still hate it.
My instructor didn't fail me cause I wasn't ABSOLUTELY perfect at it. But he does have enough faith in me and all my other skills that were dead on to help sort of assist with a class. Cause he knows how bad I want to teach and assist others in getting certified. That will mean more to me than anything. That First student that I help enjoy the under water word.
It is not the agency which you got you certification but they pleasure you get out of diving and meeting people.

Tom also once told me even after 19 years of diving if some asks him who he is certified through he will tell them "I don't disclose that info unless it is to the dive shop or some one important that needs it are you important?

hugs, LoVe, peace

Eurodiver

Bowlofpetunias
07-29-2008, 07:48
:smilie40:OMG I LOVE this board! Exactly what I am looking for, intelligent, friendly banter FANTASTIC.

I don't care who you certified with and who you want to give your dollar to! It is your diving skills I care about.

I also don't care how many certificates you carry. The most unsafe buddy I ever had was a Certified Rescue Diver! When he ran out of air and had to surface swim in.... he was kind enough to offer to tow ME in to shore!:smilie39: The only reason I was battling the rather unpleasant surface conditions was I didn't think it was safe to leave him on his own. I still had heaps of air! Don't show me your certificate please show me your skills!

I haven't heard of the pass everyone policy but I do know someone who took the course 5 times before passing. Now THAT is determination! Gotta give her credit for that hmmm :smilie39:I still won't be her buddy until I see more skill in the water tho

thanksforallthefish
07-29-2008, 07:51
Hello all ... well I am another underwater idiot ... well was certified by NAUI anyway.

My opinion is that the agency that you are certified by makes minimal difference to your diving skills, it is the attitude of the diver and the skill of the instructor that combine to make a good diver.

I have seen people just off course that I would prefer to dive with than people that have quite a few logged dives.

just my 2psi

Martin2
07-29-2008, 08:37
You know, I think it all comes down to finding the right instructor that neets your needs. I was certified with SSI. Why? Becuase when I was researching agencies and instructors in the KC area (where we were at the time), I was most impressed with the instructors at that shop. And their schedule fit well with the schedule I was looking for. It had nothing to do with SSI or NAUI or PADI (though I certainly heard in several places why one or the other is so much better). It had to do with instructors who took the time to sit down with me, talk me through the training and requirements, and help me decide what was best for me.

obrules15
07-29-2008, 09:08
I think the one gentleman made a very good point earlier about it being about the instructor AND your motivation. I originally got a Caribbean certification that was OK. It was interesting though because I was taught what the instructor thought I really needed to know to be a safe diver not what was in the manual and I learned alot of really great things. I don't think I ever did the fin pivot but he made sure my buoyancy was perfect and my understanding how to dive with buoyancy was perfect in order to protect reefs. My first time doing a rescue course was in the US with an "experienced" instructor who followed the book to the letter and it was AWFUL. I actually refused to complete the course because I didn't feel like I should be a certified RD at the end of that. Ultimately though over the years what has made the difference in my diving between good instructors and bad is that I wanted to be a better diver and I was never satisfied. This to me makes a huge difference. How much info and training we seek out is key. There can always be holes in our skills and I think we are responsible for filling those. I don't think it is fair to blame it all on an agency or an instructor. Year after year after year the worst divers I have seen are the ones who know EVERYTHING because if you already know everything you won't be open to learning new things. So attitude is the most important of all. (IMHO)

H2OGuy75
07-29-2008, 11:02
in my opinion none of the orgs are better than any others, just different. naui obviously has a more hard core, militaristic bent based on its origins and if that is what you are into, its great. for others, the PADI or SSI approach work better. nobody's better, nobody's worse :)

NeveSSL
07-30-2008, 12:44
Not Another Underwater Idiot... thats awesome! :smilie39:




I agree that the quality of the instructor is the most important thing, not the agency, as is quite obvious from your very amusing account! Thanks for sharing that.

Hey, since you're from Oz, can I ask you something? I read somewhere that the PADI shops in Oz guarantee that you'll pass your OW cert or they'll give you your money back. However, not believing anything on the internet ever... can you tell me if that's the case?

Our club here will keep letting you take the course until you pass at no charge; it's taken some people 5+ years. One women for example was afraid of water, took her around 5 years to finally get into the water and take the course.

Never heard of any instructors giving your money back though..

Wow man! 5 years to get through it. It was awesome of the shop to stick to their word and let her do it. :) Thats crazy!

I didn't really have too much of a choice in my instructor, but I did know that he had been instructing for over 30 years and diving for 40 or so. He's been around! :) He also has a great reputation, along with MTSU, in the diving community. Not super well known, but known well enough. :) We have a good relationship with a lot of the springs and whatnot in Florida. NAUI just happens to be what MTSU uses, along with YSCUBA, because they allow them to teach a bit more than other organizations is my understanding. We were also instructed to not get hung-up on brand names of gear. Just find what works and use it. Almost all of it will work very well or it wouldn't be on the market to begin with! :)

Brandon

scubasavvy
07-30-2008, 14:07
In my opinion, the only bashing you can do against any certification agency is against the instructor. Thus far, I haven't had a bad PADI instructor yet and I'm going through my AOW.

Brandon Belew
07-30-2008, 14:23
Not Another Underwater Idiot... thats awesome! :smilie39:




I agree that the quality of the instructor is the most important thing, not the agency, as is quite obvious from your very amusing account! Thanks for sharing that.

Hey, since you're from Oz, can I ask you something? I read somewhere that the PADI shops in Oz guarantee that you'll pass your OW cert or they'll give you your money back. However, not believing anything on the internet ever... can you tell me if that's the case?

Our club here will keep letting you take the course until you pass at no charge; it's taken some people 5+ years. One women for example was afraid of water, took her around 5 years to finally get into the water and take the course.

Never heard of any instructors giving your money back though..

Wow man! 5 years to get through it. It was awesome of the shop to stick to their word and let her do it. :) Thats crazy!

I didn't really have too much of a choice in my instructor, but I did know that he had been instructing for over 30 years and diving for 40 or so. He's been around! :) He also has a great reputation, along with MTSU, in the diving community. Not super well known, but known well enough. :) We have a good relationship with a lot of the springs and whatnot in Florida. NAUI just happens to be what MTSU uses, along with YSCUBA, because they allow them to teach a bit more than other organizations is my understanding. We were also instructed to not get hung-up on brand names of gear. Just find what works and use it. Almost all of it will work very well or it wouldn't be on the market to begin with! :)

Brandon

Our club also lets you come in and take refresher courses, sit through the entire course if you want, use club gear for no charge - as long as you pay your yearly club dues ( $20 ) . It's a pretty good little club.

Skred
07-30-2008, 14:39
I have certs from PADI, NAUI and SSI. Does that mean that I am a Subpar Underwater Idiot who Puts Another Dollar In too frequently?:smiley5:

DMBillies
08-01-2008, 10:30
Not to be negative, but I think the real moral to the OP's story (and this is pretty true in all parts of life) is that there are idiots EVERYWHERE.

That's why any time I am planning something where my safety could rely on another person not being an idiot, I am very careful about who I choose to go with (diving, hunting, hiking, etc.).

in_cavediver
08-01-2008, 12:14
First, I have cards from lots of agencies and used to DM for PADI. When I was active as a DM, I became pretty opinionated about agencies and standards. From that, here is what I think of the whole 'bashing' issue.

1) A good instructor can produce good divers from any agency

2) A bad instructor can exist in any agency (including GUE)

3) When talking about agencies - it's the standards that matter. There are differences that can help or impede the instructors. They also reflect the philosphy of the agency. Some are very rigid (PADI) others are more free-form (NAUI). All share a core set of performance guidelines though.

4) For a new diver - there isn't a lot of difference between the agencies - those differences are easily masked by instructor differences. The Pro level is different. There, agency is a more significant issue.

For me, I have lots of PADI cards and personally think their standards/philosphies are out of whack. I disagree with the 'Dive Now' philosophy ingrained in the OW class. I also don't care for the rigidness of the program and the specific order of the confined water portions. I personally see that as an impediment to teaching new divers. I'll leave out the missing material from the OW class as most agencies are missing it as well (trim, gas management and dive planning).

For some instructors, the rigidness of PADI is a good thing. For others, its a PIA. One day, when I have the time to commit, I'll start teaching diving and then I'll have to make a choice for the agency. For me, it won't be PADI. (likely NAUI, IANTD or SDI/TDI)

Again though, for a certed rec diver, does the certifing agency matter? Easy answer - not really. Next question - does the cert level matter. Again, for the non-pro rec diver - not really. You can have a 12 dive rescue diver or a 1000 dive OW diver.

Flfiremedic
08-01-2008, 13:15
Does it really matter?? Just go dive and have fun.


Honestly thats the best quote on this thread...turn of the computer and get wet!!! If they'd let me off this oilrig, I'd be in the water now.

PADI DM btw.

dogseatmayo
08-01-2008, 15:14
whoa dmbillie ur avatar ROCKS

anyway, i was a member of the other SCUBA posting BOARD and there was wayyyyy to much agency bashing. here i feel welcome, and that's something i didnt feel at the other forum. but personaly I think it doesn't matter what agency you belong to as long as you use a good instructor and have the required skills down

DMBillies
08-02-2008, 00:42
whoa dmbillie ur avatar ROCKS

Thanks. That's me going out Wreck Inlet in South Jersey (just north of AC)... I'm from New Gretna which is just a little place in the sticks near there. Between the ocean, the salt marshes, and rivers up into the woods, there's a lot of great riding around there. Everything from jumping waves to hard maneuvering through tight little creeks.

dogseatmayo
08-02-2008, 17:16
sounds awesome.
wish i could do that