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View Full Version : NAUI Equivalent of PADI's Master Scuba Diver?



JipThePeople
08-17-2007, 09:04
To become a master scuba diver with PADI, they require the following:

- PADI Open Water Diver certification (or qualifying certification from another organization)
- PADI Advanced Open Water Diver certification (or qualifying certification from another organization)
- PADI Rescue Diver certification (or qualifying certification from another organization)
- 50 logged dives
- Five PADI Specialty course certifications

Does NAUI have something similar? If so, does NAUI recognize PADI specialty courses towards their version of the master scuba diver?

porsche060
08-17-2007, 13:56
Pretty sure NAUI has a similar class which req their version of Advance OW and Rescue but not the other stuff (money making opp for PADI)

Vercingetorix
08-17-2007, 14:04
NAUI does not require all those classes. Instead,NAUI demands that you pass a test which is also used to test their DiveMaster and Instuctor candidates. There are also water and diving skills. The difference between NAUI Master Scuba Diver and the DM/Instructor route is that Master does not requre the "stupid human tricks". MSD does not learn how to teach divers.

ScubaToys Larry
08-17-2007, 14:11
Yes, there is a huge difference between the 2 curriculum's. Padi's Master Diver is a card collection class. They sell you a card that says you bought 5 cards. :smiley29:

With Naui, Master Diver means you have Divemaster knowledge and skills, but don't really want to deal with people. It's for someone who wants a full knowledge base of physics, physiology, diving environment, etc, but does not want to work open water classes with an instructor.

I've seen divers who had 10 dives in their lives... just check out dives from ow and advanced, then they go on a 7 day live aboard, and do a deep wreck dive at night while taking pictures in a drift... then bingo! They are now Master Divers! Perhaps a bit of a stretch... but only a bit.

So it just really depends if you're looking for knowledge and experience, or cool looking chevrons to put on your dive bag or jacket.

RECDiver
08-17-2007, 17:04
The NAUI MSD is the highest non-leadership rating for NAUI and a pre-requisite for AI and DM. It is it's own course covering Physics, Physiology, environment, decompression, equipment and various diving skills. There is a 100 question exam to pass and a minimum of 8 open water dives to complete. Required dives are Navigation, search/light salvage, night dive, deep dive and emergency procedures and rescue. There are a variety of dives that can be done to complete the remaining three dive requirements.

namabiru
08-17-2007, 17:49
Wow. NAUI certainly sounds a lot nicer to me in that respect. I'll have to check out what they list on their website.

Although, once again, you can sometimes get a good independent instructor who puts together a bit more rigorous curriculum for their MSD. One I can think of right off hand is Dive-aholic. They require specific PADI specialties and training within those specialties before they'll pass you.

What is the minimum total dives required for the NAUI MSD? PADI says 50 logged dives.

It would be interesting to get the study kit and see what's being covered.

I found this link: http://www.crabbsac.org.uk/articles/A010.htm

Can someone tell me if these requirements are all accurate? If so, they certainly give someone something to informally work towards. After all, I must confess I certainly wouldn't be able to pass a majority of these tests without some extensive training.

cummings66
08-17-2007, 18:34
I could do many of them, some I've never tried so I have no idea if I could do it or not. The bailout for example. I've taken off my gear and put it on underwater, but I've never dove in with it off and then had to put it on under. I could see my having buoyancy control issues there. The one where you take it off and swim away from it and surface, then go back down and retrace and put it back on might be an interesting exercise as well. It would depend on whether or not I had to drop my weights. It sounds like something fun though.

namabiru
08-18-2007, 11:20
Yeah, I think so too. They would certainly be fun skills to try. Obviously I would do so in a pool, though.

One thing I didn't get on the bailout, though, was the depth you would go to. Is it still the 8-12 feet of water? I'm assuming so, so you would do it in the pool or in a controlled OW environment.

I'm trying to imagine how this would go.

I suppose I would start with connecting my LP hose to my BCD (if this is disconnected), turn on my air, get my reg. squared away so I can at least breathe while doing all this, place my weight belt (unless we can use integrated BCD), place the BCD, place my mask, and place my fins. Unless it's advisable for someone like me, who doesn't dive with contacts, to place a mask right after the reg. squaring so you also have visual.

At least, in the pool, you wouldn't be expected to fumble with gloves/hood etc. I wouldn't really want to do all this with gloves on, anyway.

badfrog88
08-19-2007, 08:47
Yes, there is a huge difference between the 2 curriculum's. Padi's Master Diver is a card collection class. They sell you a card that says you bought 5 cards. :smiley29:

While I agree with this in general, remember that it is the instructor who will make the most difference. Also, The PADI program offers greater flexibility. For example; if you have no interest in diving deep, the NAUI required deep/simulated decompression dive may not be of much interest. With PADI, you can pick the specialties that you are really interested in.

In addition, you can think of the PADI MSD as kind of a reward. Sit down and decide what you want to achieve with your diving, assuming that you don't want to go the instructor/professional route. Now maybe you find that to achieve those goals you would be taking six specialty courses. You could than get the MSD after your sixth indicating (at least to yourself) that you have met your goals.

On the downside, you then have to find an instructor who can teach all the specialties you want. This may involve having multiple instructors. It will, most likely, take longer to complete.

If I were a PADI instructor, this is how I would present the MSD to my students. Find out what the student wants out of their diving and tailor a program to meet their goal.

That being said, I would like to get a Master Diver Rating myself and I still haven't decided what route I am going to go.

What I would really like to see is an agency offer a Master Diver program that would allow the student to custom tailor the curriculum without having to "buy" multiple cards.

Kent

namabiru
08-19-2007, 12:10
While I agree with this in general, remember that it is the instructor who will make the most difference. Also, The PADI program offers greater flexibility. For example; if you have no interest in diving deep, the NAUI required deep/simulated decompression dive may not be of much interest. With PADI, you can pick the specialties that you are really interested in.

What I would really like to see is an agency offer a Master Diver program that would allow the student to custom tailor the curriculum without having to "buy" multiple cards.

Kent

I have to agree with you, to a point. Some independent instructors, who are high quality, have tailored the MSD so that you do specific certifications. They've sat down and thought carefully about what a MSD *really* should be able to do.

As independents, though, you also probably have some leeway in what you can add on for your learning. For instance, I have a huge interest in learning equipment maintenance. Not just how you clean your BCD, but how it's constructed, and how you can take them apart, and such. Same with regs., or tanks. Knowing how a tank is hydroed is good knowledge, I think. So if I went to an independent instructor and said hey, I'll do these specialties you require, but I also would like the following knowledge, (then name them), and the instructor may say sure, we can work that stuff in for you.

I also highly agree with your recommendation that the student could tailor their education more for the MSD, based on diving environment, etc.

I must say that NAUI's MSD appeals to me for the knowledge and skills required. You are considered highly capable to do the things a divemaster would, minus the customer part. Something I think would be cool is if you could incorporate the PADI Divemaster knowledge portion (or parts of it, if not all) into the MSD certification. I've been thinking of buying the Encyclopedia and workbook just for personal study anyway.

Vercingetorix
08-20-2007, 17:40
Yeah, I think so too. They would certainly be fun skills to try. Obviously I would do so in a pool, though.

One thing I didn't get on the bailout, though, was the depth you would go to. Is it still the 8-12 feet of water? I'm assuming so, so you would do it in the pool or in a controlled OW environment.

I'm trying to imagine how this would go.

I've watched a NAUI DM candidate attempt the bailout. It is in a pool of 12 feet. You are not permitted to touch the side of the pool nor break the surface until you have donned all gear. Threfore, you must ensure all air is out of the BC ad exhale completely, or else you'll slowly float to the surface. The inflator hose is attached. The air is off.

Upon hitting the bottom, turn on the air and get reg in mouth. As you inhale, you must now deal with buoyancy issues, that is floating to the surface, which (mentioned above) you cannot do. Only your feet may touch the bottom of the pool. You cannot sit to put on your gear.

This candidate attempted twice that night and did not complete the skill; this was his eighth attempt. Another suceeded on his second attempt.

The second candidate was not able to complete the ditch skill whereby he swims to the bottom and removes fins and mask (he is wearing no dive gear). He then must swim down and don the mask and fins and surface. Before breaking surface, the mask and snorkel must be clear. If there is any water in either, then it is a failure. Imagine that you must clear mask AND snorkel with your single breath.

The instructor who was observing mentioned that it is "mind of matter". That is, you must suppress the desire, the NEED, to breathe. That need is not the need for oxygen; rather, it is carbon dioxide build-up. Ignore the build up and you can stay down longer to complete the skills. Easier said than done.

divinginn
08-20-2007, 22:17
we had to do the mask clear with the ymca on one breath,had a hard time doing it do to a high volume mask,had to borrow a low volume one,made it alot easier. that was in open water training in 1980 not sure if they still do that.

somewhereinla
08-20-2007, 23:39
All the major certifications agencies in the U.S have "borrowed" their program from the L.A County ADP/UICC which was the first certification agency (1955)in the world and still to this day the most comprehensive. Because it was/is regulated by the L.A county it couldn't go national, so some L.A county UICC instructors developed the YMCA(1959) program. Soon after other former county instructors started the NAUI program and later PADI. They all borrow from the same source, but some made it much, much easier to a point where some agencies don't even require a basic swimming test. Padi has probably become the worst agency as far as good education is concern.

pnevai
08-24-2007, 17:09
I went through the Naui Instructors course and the Master Diver course was all of the knowledge and physical requirements with the exception of the teaching requirement.

The water skills you have to demonstrate are rigerous, As outlined in the link presented in another reply on this thread.

The Scuba Bailout, "Jumping into the pool with gear off and having to put it on" is one of the easier excersizes actually.
(You can sit on the bottom, you do have a time limit though and my instructor put that time limit to 3 minutes)
This is how I did it. I looped my mask over my right arm, next I looped my weight belt over my right arm, I looped the fin straps over my left arm. I grabbed the tank valve in my right hand with my left hand on the tank valve. (BC fully deflated)

You are requireed to empty your lungs of air before jumping into the water. Your instructor may request you to yell NAUI before jumping in to accomplish this.

Now if you have staged your gear as I described. As you are hitting the water you are already cracking open the tank valve. As you are settling to the bottom of the pool you are reaching for your regulator with your left hand. You will be held down on the bottom by the weights looped around your right arm.

Once you have your requlator in your mouth you are home free. You next unloop the weight belt from your right arm and lay it across your lap. This will keep you nicely submerged. You unloop your mask next from your right arm and put it on and clear it. Next you take the weight belt from your lap and put that on. Next get into your BC and finally unloop your fins from your left arm and put those on. Double check yourself and surface.

One skill mastered and demonstrated.

The skin diving bailout is alot harder. You jump in take your, mask snborkel and fins and leave them in the pool. You surface and then go back and retrieve everything put it on, clear the mask and snorkle and surface with a completely cleared mask and snorkle all on only two breaths. THAT IS THE TOUGH ONE. ( hint*** Hyperveltilate with 5 or 6 deep breaths before submerging to retreive and don your gear.) But after you complete all of the water and academic requirements for NAUI Master Diver you can dive with a skill set that only DM's Instructors and AI's are asked to demonstrate. You just do not have to learn how to teach a OW class.

greyzen
08-24-2007, 17:26
I'm seriously considering going out after my PADI AOW and looking deeper into NAUI cert... they seem to be more 'serious' about the dive's and less 'sales' oriented.

pnevai
08-24-2007, 18:23
Please do not try the Naui Skin Diving Bailout without someone else pool side to assist. To complete this skill you risk shallow water blackout if performed incorrectly.

For those who are going to be performiing the skill or wish to try it out, this is how I did it during my Naui Instructor training.

Our instructor required us to snorkle out to the deep end of the pool, submerge and remove our gear then swim UW back to the shallow end surface, swim back out to the deep end submerge, retrieve and don the gear UW and surface with a clear mask and clear snorkle.

Now when you think this through you have two issues, Bouyancy and air management.

So this is how I did it. While removing the gear at the deep end I stuffed the mask/snorkel into a fin foot pocket. It is easier to locate your fins UW without a mask than a mask especially if yours is clear silicon. This saves time when you have to go back find your stuff and put it on.

When you swim back to the deep end to retrieve and don your gear, Hyper ventillate (Taking 5 or 6 deep rapid breaths) and submerge. Now if you submerge with full lungs you will pop back to the surface long before you grab your gear let alone put it on so you will have to vent air just enough from your lungs so you settle to the bottom, but not so much that you have none left to clear your mask.

Grab your fins, extracate your mask / snorkle from the foot pocket and get it on, Next by feel put your fins on. Now point your face straight up, this will serve two functions. 1 it will make getting all of the water out of your nask easier, second, water will naturally drain from the snorkle tube by gravity as you surface. Clear your mask and start up, only after you are fully surfaced gently tilt your head forward while giving a final puff of air to vent the remaining little water from the snorkel. Now GASP for air as you will certainly be needing it at this point. No matter, as you have sucessfully completed this skill (A snorkel with a bottom purge helps a lot with this exercise0

Because of the Hyper ventillation and purging of air from the lungs in order to complete this excersize it is imperitive that surface support be at the pool when you attempt this.

Like with many Naui Advanced water skills they are geared to make the diver accustomed to solving problems in a calm and rational manner. It is more for learning how to handle a complex task UW in a limited air situation than a test at your breath holding skills. This is a absolute requirement when a candidate is expected to be a Diving leader.

JugglingMonkeys
08-24-2007, 18:45
Is Naui generally considered to be more rigorous than PADI?

pnevai
08-24-2007, 18:57
As I've been out of the Naui training loop for a while I can not comment on how the courses are taught today. In regards to the level of training for the variious certifications. Back when I went throught the program however, You recieved more training rolled into each cert level than PADI. At the time the Naui AOW class had the academic requirement equivelent of the PADI AI certification. At the time the NAUI AOW required a 75% passing grade on a 100 question exam for the academic requirement. I do not know if this is still the case. I do know that if you are trained by a Naui instructor who reccieved his instructor training in the late 80's early 90's then he certainly had a very high bar to pass before being allowed to teach the OW course.

CompuDude
08-24-2007, 19:33
Is Naui generally considered to be more rigorous than PADI?
At the open water level I don't see a huge amount of difference. The individual instructor makes more difference than the agency. PADI makes it difficult for an instructor to find ways to go beyond the standards, however, it can be done. NAUI makes it very easy for an instructor to teach to a higher level... unfortunately, they also make it easy to teach under the level a student really should be at. So the right instructor is far more important than the agency.

Beyond OW, however, NAUI's requirements get tougher a lot faster. I consider AOW to be something of a joke, and PADI's MSD even more so, while NAUI's MSD is very serious.

For the record, PADI's training methodologies used to be much more rigorous than they are today. In the late 80s, PADI restructured their classes, which were originally much closer to the LA County courses they had been based on, to a more marketable "Everyone Can Dive! :smiley20:" slogan with (IMO) seriously compromised standards.

If it means anything to you, I'm going to have my wife go through the LA County cert program (YMCA, and a NAUI crossover) rather than let her take a PADI course, even though I am friends with a number of instructors who would probably do it for free.

I'm also probably going to be working as DiveMaster for an LA County instructor starting this weekend, with any luck. :)