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BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
02-17-2009, 12:48
I've been tech-curious long enough. I've decided to start my own deficit-spending econmic stimulus plan and become a tech diver. Things on my buy, trade, or build list, not all of it immediately and in no particular order and a lot of it is want-to versus have-to.

course fees
charter fees
gas fills
can light
good backup light
some sets of doubles
assorted stages
another regulator (or 6) - I have 5 already
an aluminum backplate
a better wing
backup bottom timer
compass
drysuit inflation system
dry gloves
tech fins
second lift bag
scooter
gas analyzer
and a big honking SUV to carry it all.

I agree with SplitLip- Diving Sucks. Don't try it. I wish I had listened.



-Joe

Rainer
02-17-2009, 12:55
I've actually maintained an Excel file with all of my scuba related costs since about the time I got certified.

It's depressing...

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
02-17-2009, 13:24
I've actually maintained an Excel file with all of my scuba related costs since about the time I got certified.

It's depressing...


A fellow nerd :smiley20: I've done the same.

fire diver
02-17-2009, 14:21
OMG! Never, never, never total up the costs of scuba diving!

There is a vortex of space and time that will always show the total about 10x higher than reality. How do I know? Becuase I know how much I told my wife I spent! :)

MSilvia
02-17-2009, 14:26
That looks about right.

Straegen
02-17-2009, 16:27
I've actually maintained an Excel file with all of my scuba related costs since about the time I got certified.

It's depressing...I hope your not married and if you are I would keep that spreadsheet in a vault... or two.

Rainer
02-17-2009, 16:35
Married.

File is locked, LOL.

Straegen
02-17-2009, 17:15
I lived in terror that my wife would figure out how much I spent on my reef aquarium at one point.

comet24
02-17-2009, 17:27
I've actually maintained an Excel file with all of my scuba related costs since about the time I got certified.

It's depressing...

If your married you better make sure that's password protected.

wheelman
02-17-2009, 17:31
It's best just to commit it to memory and take the answer with you.

ianr33
02-17-2009, 17:46
Take it from one that knows. If you let your wife buy a horse then the cost of tech gear becomes trivial :smiley2:

ektess1
02-17-2009, 17:47
If you can't claim it on taxes never write it down. Especialy if you are married.

DivingAnarchy.info
02-17-2009, 18:50
Or just don't make make a spreadsheet at all. I have only bought gear when I really needed it and was sure that I was going to use it. The only item I regret buying was a Pelican headlight that wasn't even strong enough to light up my compass. After one dive it started leaking but I was to ashamed of my purchase to go back to the shop that sold it to me.

DMWiz
02-17-2009, 21:04
I've actually maintained an Excel file with all of my scuba related costs since about the time I got certified.

It's depressing...

My wife would call that evidence! I wouldn't not want to do that and I'm just getting started.

DMWiz
02-17-2009, 21:12
I've been tech-curious long enough. I've decided to start my own deficit-spending econmic stimulus plan and become a tech diver. Things on my buy, trade, or build list, not all of it immediately and in no particular order and a lot of it is want-to versus have-to.


I've been building up to it for the last year and picking up a deal here and there and inevitably the best deals always happen the moment you just bought that one particular piece of gear you thought you couldn't possibly get cheaper! FRUSTRATING!

fire diver
02-17-2009, 22:51
As to the OPs gear, I'm in the same boat (figuratively). I have finally amassed about 90% of what I need. Bought everything slowly, one peice at a time. All of it on sale or bought used. Keep your eyes open on the "want to sell" section and you will find thing you need from time to time.

My last big needs are for a couple sets of steel doubles. Problem is, I haven't dove any yet so I don't what size I really want. But I do see good used sets come up fairly often. I have my AL80 doubles holding me over in the mean time.

CWSWine
02-17-2009, 23:03
I just purchase x7-100 steel tanks and purchase two up front with the plans of doubling them sometime in the future. I think a dry suit is my next biggie purchase.

CompuDude
02-18-2009, 00:16
Good luck!

Rainer... congrats! Been a busier year for you than I knew!

skdvr
02-18-2009, 07:29
My wife handles out books so there is no way for me to hide any of my costs. She is also a diver and knows when a piece of gear is new, so I am pretty much screwed.... She just thinks that I am NUTS....

Phil

in_cavediver
02-18-2009, 16:33
It could be worse - I had most of the gear before I got married. Got my wife certified - now much of the gear is hers! Everything is now times 2. Rec diving is bad but two tec divers is much worse!

skdvr
02-19-2009, 04:52
It could be worse - I had most of the gear before I got married. Got my wife certified - now much of the gear is hers! Everything is now times 2. Rec diving is bad but two tec divers is much worse!

Thanksfully my wife has no interest in tec diving...

Phil

Bill22
02-19-2009, 06:15
Take it from one that knows. If you let your wife buy a horse then the cost of tech gear becomes trivial :smiley2:

Brother isn't that the truth! (about horses :D) It's funny, because now that you mentioned that, the time I bought my horse was around the time I started riding more and diving less and eventually stopped diving all together.

I remember having a really bad month many years ago. I got divorced, had to sell my horse, and have my dog put to sleep all within a 3 week period..... of the 3, I miss my ex-wife the least ;) (actually, I don't miss her at all :D)

I don't have a horse, a dog, or a wife at the moment, but I do have diving again :)

Straegen
02-19-2009, 07:47
It could be worse - I had most of the gear before I got married. Got my wife certified - now much of the gear is hers! Everything is now times 2. Rec diving is bad but two tec divers is much worse!

I can attest that rec diving for 2 is real bad. I can't imagine tech diving... ouch.

ianr33
02-19-2009, 08:20
[quote=ianr33;273059]T

I remember having a really bad month many years ago. I got divorced, had to sell my horse, and have my dog put to sleep all within a 3 week period.....



You should write a Country Song about that :smiley20:

in_cavediver
02-19-2009, 11:01
It could be worse - I had most of the gear before I got married. Got my wife certified - now much of the gear is hers! Everything is now times 2. Rec diving is bad but two tec divers is much worse!

I can attest that rec diving for 2 is real bad. I can't imagine tech diving... ouch.

Its only 9 regs, 19 tanks, something like 5 BC's, 10 reels, 4 drysuits, god knows how many wetsuits and masks and fins, 2 HID can lights, upteen backup lights and then some. That stuff wasn't too bad. Its the CCR's we want that will kill us - $20 grand.......

Oh and for the record - we own 1.5 snorkels.

mm_dm
02-19-2009, 14:19
I've been tech-curious long enough. I've decided to start my own deficit-spending econmic stimulus plan and become a tech diver. Things on my buy, trade, or build list, not all of it immediately and in no particular order and a lot of it is want-to versus have-to.

course fees
charter fees
gas fills
can light
good backup light
some sets of doubles
assorted stages
another regulator (or 6) - I have 5 already
an aluminum backplate
a better wing
backup bottom timer
compass
drysuit inflation system
dry gloves
tech fins
second lift bag
scooter
gas analyzer
and a big honking SUV to carry it all.

I agree with SplitLip- Diving Sucks. Don't try it. I wish I had listened.



-Joe

The first ten grand is the hardest, after that you should be sufficiently immune and by then the people around you should have also given up hope for your redemption. Remember, you only need one kidney...but most guys I know keep that idea as their ace-in-the hole.

skdvr
02-20-2009, 06:20
Oh and for the record - we own 1.5 snorkels.

Wait, wait, wait just a second here. Where the heck are your backups?!?!

Phil

mm_dm
02-20-2009, 08:04
Some other advice: Buy nice or buy twice- you've heard this before, but with all the money you'll spend on tech gear & training there's just no sense in investing in a piece of gear that looks like a bargain now only to end up on a shelf in the garage. Research as much as you can.

Try to find a mentor or an instructor with a variety of gear, try all of it you can. If you're a 'head-heavy' diver with doubles a lighter AL or Kydex plate, possibly with a tail weight, may be a better option for you than a SS plate...and then there are the wings, I use the Torus 49# which wasn't the best deal I could get, but it works better for me balance-wise. If you can, try gear out in a pool before going to OW.

If you haven't dove a drysuit before, get some dives in with a single tank in and get your bubble-management skills set before adding the doubles. Learning them both at the same time can be a real task-loading CF.

Just my 2psi. Probably heard it before & others will no doubt have more to add. Good luck Joe!

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
02-20-2009, 08:35
Some other advice: Buy nice or buy twice- you've heard this before, but with all the money you'll spend on tech gear & training there's just no sense in investing in a piece of gear that looks like a bargain now only to end up on a shelf in the garage. Research as much as you can.

Try to find a mentor or an instructor with a variety of gear, try all of it you can. If you're a 'head-heavy' diver with doubles a lighter AL or Kydex plate, possibly with a tail weight, may be a better option for you than a SS plate...and then there are the wings, I use the Torus 49# which wasn't the best deal I could get, but it works better for me balance-wise. If you can, try gear out in a pool before going to OW.

If you haven't dove a drysuit before, get some dives in with a single tank in and get your bubble-management skills set before adding the doubles. Learning them both at the same time can be a real task-loading CF.

Just my 2psi. Probably heard it before & others will no doubt have more to add. Good luck Joe!


Thanks- I've heard about people getting into tech classes and not having dove a drysuit before. Lot's of them had miserable classes and either didn't pass or shouldn't have passed. I have about 60 dives in my drysuit over the past, so I hope drysuit won't be too much of an issue. Need to get a few dives in doubles with my drysuit before class, though.

MSilvia
02-20-2009, 09:03
If you haven't dove a drysuit before, get some dives in with a single tank in and get your bubble-management skills set before adding the doubles. Learning them both at the same time can be a real task-loading CF.

Amen! Learning both at the same time was one of the most frustrating things I've done as a diver. I rushed it so I could take a fundies class that was going to be offered locally. It was educational, but it would have been a lot more fun if I got comfortable first.

3rdEye
02-20-2009, 09:30
do you have to dive dry to take a tech class?

Rainer
02-20-2009, 11:34
No.

That said, you just limit where you can dive and for how long. Dry suits also offer a further safety margin in case of wing failure.

MSilvia
02-20-2009, 11:42
do you have to dive dry to take a tech class?
It gets cold when you spend time at depth, and deco times can seem long when you've got a chill. Being cold also makes off-gassing less effective.

When you combine those thermal considerations with the safety benefits of redundant buoyancy, a drysuit might make a lot of sense for tech. It isn't required in all cases, but if you don't use a drysuit, you'll almost certainly want some good thermal exposure protection and a dual bladder wing so you get most of the advantages of having one.

In any case, technical diving isn't very forgiving of cutting corners. Either get the right tools for it, or reconsider doing it. Meeting the requirements for the class isn't so much the issue as meeting the requirements to be able to do the dives safely. Diving beyond recreational limits is an expensive decision.

Flatliner
02-20-2009, 11:50
I am planning on doing intro to tech in the spring. My instructor won't allow students to do it wet. I am sure some do, but he said that the class involves so much underwater time and such long dives that dry is really the only option. I dive dry BUT I am still using a rental suit. I haven't decided for sure that with the economy I can do it but I would like to get my own suit prior to the class if I can swing it.

No Misses
02-20-2009, 12:22
I've been building up to it for the last year and picking up a deal here and there and inevitably the best deals always happen the moment you just bought that one particular piece of gear you thought you couldn't possibly get cheaper! FRUSTRATING!

That sounds like a Johnny Cash song. I can see it now. A double rig with an AL80 on one side and a Steel 120 on the other :-)

Well, I left Kentucky back in '49
An' went to Detroit workin' on a 'sembly line
The first year they had me puttin' wheels on cadillacs

Every day I'd watch them bueties roll by
And sometimes I'd hang my head and cry
'Cause I always wanted me one that was long and black.

One day I devised myself a plan
That should be the envy of most any man
I'd sneak it out of there in a lunchbox in my hand
Now gettin' caught meant gettin' fired
But I figured I'd have it all by the time I retired
I'd have me a car worth at least a hundred grand.

I'd get it one piece at a time
And it wouldn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town
I'm gonna ride around in style
I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only one there is a round.

So the very next day when I punched in
With my big lunchbox and with help from my friends
I left that day with a lunchbox full of gears
Now, I never considered myself a thief
GM wouldn't miss just one little piece
Especially if I strung it out over several years.

The first day I got me a fuel pump
And the next day I got me an engine and a trunk
Then I got me a transmission and all of the chrome
The little things I could get in my big lunchbox
Like nuts, an' bolts, and all four shocks
But the big stuff we snuck out in my buddy's mobile home

Now, up to now my plan went all right
'Til we tried to put it all together one night
And that's when we noticed that something was definitely wrong.

The transmission was a '53
And the motor turned out to be a '73
And when we tried to put in the bolts all the holes were gone.

BSea
02-20-2009, 12:31
I've actually maintained an Excel file with all of my scuba related costs since about the time I got certified.

It's depressing...Fortunately when I started diving, there was no such thing as Excel. In fact there was no Lotus 123, or even a home PC either. And I didn't own an abacus. :) So I'm totally oblivious to the amount I've spent on diving. Good thing too. It's bad enough to go to my LDS & see what I've spent with them. :smiley5:

3rdEye
02-20-2009, 12:37
do you have to dive dry to take a tech class?
It gets cold when you spend time at depth, and deco times can seem long when you've got a chill. Being cold also makes off-gassing less effective.

When you combine those thermal considerations with the safety benefits of redundant buoyancy, a drysuit might make a lot of sense for tech. It isn't required in all cases, but if you don't use a drysuit, you'll almost certainly want some good thermal exposure protection and a dual bladder wing so you get most of the advantages of having one.

In any case, technical diving isn't very forgiving of cutting corners. Either get the right tools for it, or reconsider doing it. Meeting the requirements for the class isn't so much the issue as meeting the requirements to be able to do the dives safely. Diving beyond recreational limits is an expensive decision.

no doubt...

hmm, might have to rethink my path...i plan on getting a drysuit at some point, wasn't sure if I'd do that before or after taking an intro to tech class...which as I understand it, is all skills based, and doesn't really get into deco diving, etc.

CompuDude
02-20-2009, 13:15
do you have to dive dry to take a tech class?
It gets cold when you spend time at depth, and deco times can seem long when you've got a chill. Being cold also makes off-gassing less effective.

When you combine those thermal considerations with the safety benefits of redundant buoyancy, a drysuit might make a lot of sense for tech. It isn't required in all cases, but if you don't use a drysuit, you'll almost certainly want some good thermal exposure protection and a dual bladder wing so you get most of the advantages of having one.

In any case, technical diving isn't very forgiving of cutting corners. Either get the right tools for it, or reconsider doing it. Meeting the requirements for the class isn't so much the issue as meeting the requirements to be able to do the dives safely. Diving beyond recreational limits is an expensive decision.

no doubt...

hmm, might have to rethink my path...i plan on getting a drysuit at some point, wasn't sure if I'd do that before or after taking an intro to tech class...which as I understand it, is all skills based, and doesn't really get into deco diving, etc.

Intro classes are all skills-based, true, but you're going to want to learn those skills in a drysuit, since it's likely you're going to end up using those skills in a drysuit. Best to get the instructor feedback early.

I'd agree that you're going to want to get comfortable in a DS before pursuing tech training. It's not always (usually, but not always) required, but it's the better course in the long run.

Florida caves are 72 degrees... ordinarily no need for a DS at those temps. But add in multi-hour dives, especially with deco where you're not generating much body heat, and the cavers end up wearing the same 400g undergarments as the nuts doing ice diving in Canada.

3rdEye
02-20-2009, 13:39
Intro classes are all skills-based, true, but you're going to want to learn those skills in a drysuit, since it's likely you're going to end up using those skills in a drysuit. Best to get the instructor feedback early.

I'd agree that you're going to want to get comfortable in a DS before pursuing tech training. It's not always (usually, but not always) required, but it's the better course in the long run.

Florida caves are 72 degrees... ordinarily no need for a DS at those temps. But add in multi-hour dives, especially with deco where you're not generating much body heat, and the cavers end up wearing the same 400g undergarments as the nuts doing ice diving in Canada.

now I just need to scrounge up a grand or two for a drysuit...

MSilvia
02-20-2009, 13:42
now I just need to scrounge up a grand or two for a drysuit...
Well... that'll be a start, but if that's the end of your scrounging, you're way ahead of the game.

DMWiz
02-20-2009, 14:22
I've been building up to it for the last year and picking up a deal here and there and inevitably the best deals always happen the moment you just bought that one particular piece of gear you thought you couldn't possibly get cheaper! FRUSTRATING!

That sounds like a Johnny Cash song. I can see it now. A double rig with an AL80 on one side and a Steel 120 on the other :-)


Both you and I have way too much time in our hands, you for writing that post and me for reading it!:smiley36:

mm_dm
02-20-2009, 14:25
Some other advice: Buy nice or buy twice- you've heard this before, but with all the money you'll spend on tech gear & training there's just no sense in investing in a piece of gear that looks like a bargain now only to end up on a shelf in the garage. Research as much as you can.

Try to find a mentor or an instructor with a variety of gear, try all of it you can. If you're a 'head-heavy' diver with doubles a lighter AL or Kydex plate, possibly with a tail weight, may be a better option for you than a SS plate...and then there are the wings, I use the Torus 49# which wasn't the best deal I could get, but it works better for me balance-wise. If you can, try gear out in a pool before going to OW.

If you haven't dove a drysuit before, get some dives in with a single tank in and get your bubble-management skills set before adding the doubles. Learning them both at the same time can be a real task-loading CF.

Just my 2psi. Probably heard it before & others will no doubt have more to add. Good luck Joe!


Thanks- I've heard about people getting into tech classes and not having dove a drysuit before. Lot's of them had miserable classes and either didn't pass or shouldn't have passed. I have about 60 dives in my drysuit over the past, so I hope drysuit won't be too much of an issue. Need to get a few dives in doubles with my drysuit before class, though.

You're already alot more on the ball than many guys who get into this stuff, what with your wreck diving and all...should be a pretty smooth transition. One thing that did help me when I first started doubles was to do some easy dives with them in a wetsuit. That helped me get a feel for how the kit should balance with my body before I threw the drysuit into the equation. Then, I had some muscle-memory to draw from. May be over-kill, or just the DM in me coming through, but it did help, gave me a reference point.

ianr33
02-20-2009, 16:31
do you have to dive dry to take a tech class?

I did my deco class in Cayman. The water is 80+ so you could probably get by in a T shirt! Tanks were double 80's so redundant buoyancy is not so important. (although I used a double bladder wing for the first,and last! time)

No way would I want to do deco dives in water less than around 70 in a wetsuit. (but I'm a weenie when it comes to cold water)

CompuDude
02-20-2009, 16:51
do you have to dive dry to take a tech class?

I did my deco class in Cayman. The water is 80+ so you could probably get by in a T shirt! Tanks were double 80's so redundant buoyancy is not so important. (although I used a double bladder wing for the first,and last! time)

No way would I want to do deco dives in water less than around 70 in a wetsuit. (but I'm a weenie when it comes to cold water)

Technically you're losing body heat faster than the body can replace it in water colder 90 (low 90s... I forget the exact temp). You can definitely get hypothermia in 80 degree water, although it'll take a number of hours.

Heavy D
02-20-2009, 20:45
do you have to dive dry to take a tech class?
Depends on the shop. My LDS wants you to have one for all deco dives below 75 degrees water temp.

CWSWine
02-20-2009, 21:10
I just moved to BP/Wing and just two weeks ago purchased two x7-100 (plan to make them doubles) and one X8-119 steel tanks plus I also purchased a Flathead 6 with long hose setup. This week I purchased the Scuba Pro Jets to start practicing some kick other than the flutter. I have plans to go Dog days in April 09 and try the DUI dry suits I would to purchased a dry suit by May 09 – be in DUI or something else. Then get about 50 or so dives with the steel tanks, BP/Wing and just learn skills. Get my AOW, which doesn’t really seem important other than it normal progression in the PADI scheme of things. The progress to doubles in maybe September of October. By summer 2010 I would like to take some advance class. Any suggestions?

Rainer
02-20-2009, 21:15
Any suggestions?

Your plan sounds fine.

Dive. Lots.

DMWiz
02-20-2009, 21:31
I just moved to BP/Wing and just two weeks ago purchased two x7-100 (plan to make them doubles) and one X8-119 steel tanks

That seems odd, why only one 119 instead of two, or none or 3 100s? Nothing wrong with that, just curious.

mm_dm
02-20-2009, 21:38
I just moved to BP/Wing and just two weeks ago purchased two x7-100 (plan to make them doubles) and one X8-119 steel tanks plus I also purchased a Flathead 6 with long hose setup. This week I purchased the Scuba Pro Jets to start practicing some kick other than the flutter. I have plans to go Dog days in April 09 and try the DUI dry suits I would to purchased a dry suit by May 09 – be in DUI or something else. Then get about 50 or so dives with the steel tanks, BP/Wing and just learn skills. Get my AOW, which doesn’t really seem important other than it normal progression in the PADI scheme of things. The progress to doubles in maybe September of October. By summer 2010 I would like to take some advance class. Any suggestions?

If you have the patience and discipline to wait over a year to take truly 'advanced' training...you already have most of what you need. Like Rainer said...keep your gear soggy.

ps: that Flathead is a sweet reg, huh?

CWSWine
02-20-2009, 21:50
I just moved to BP/Wing and just two weeks ago purchased two x7-100 (plan to make them doubles) and one X8-119 steel tanks

That seems odd, why only one 119 instead of two, or none or 3 100s? Nothing wrong with that, just curious.

This is my rational is that I was going to double the X7-100’s in the future but still wanted at least one tank to dive singles and possibility Nitrox. The X8-119 is only slight different in buoyancy than the X7-100 and still a 24-inch tank so if figured they were almost interchangeable without major buoyancy and trim problems. Probably me just over think a problem again but it make sense to me when I purchased them. Plus I still a air hog and the extra air gives me margin - that hopefully I will over come in the near future with more dives.

mm_dm
02-20-2009, 21:54
I just moved to BP/Wing and just two weeks ago purchased two x7-100 (plan to make them doubles) and one X8-119 steel tanks

That seems odd, why only one 119 instead of two, or none or 3 100s? Nothing wrong with that, just curious.

I love my double 100's. I'd need a really good reason to haul more weight than that on my back...a really good cave or a virgin wreck. Just me, but my back would be yaking at me for days. I have a 7.25 -120 I use for singles diving...man I can go all day on that one (the guys on the dive boat didn't appreciate my tastes in tanks, but...oh well).

DMWiz
02-20-2009, 21:59
I just moved to BP/Wing and just two weeks ago purchased two x7-100 (plan to make them doubles) and one X8-119 steel tanks

That seems odd, why only one 119 instead of two, or none or 3 100s? Nothing wrong with that, just curious.

This is my rational is that I was going to double the X7-100’s in the future but still wanted at least one tank to dive singles and possibility Nitrox. The X8-119 is only slight different in buoyancy than the X7-100 and still a 24-inch tank so if figured they were almost interchangeable without major buoyancy and trim problems. Probably me just over think a problem again but it make sense to me when I purchased them. Plus I still a air hog and the extra air gives me margin - that hopefully I will over come in the near future with more dives.

Like I said, nothing wrong with the tank or size (I use 130s :D) I was wondering why only one, as most trips are usually 2 dives you would need another tank. But I guess you could use one of the 100s while they are not doubled.

No biggie!

mm_dm
02-20-2009, 22:13
I use 130s :D


One of my buddies has the 130's. He's smaller than me (I'm 6 foot, 190+). Watching him walk down to the water, I felt like a Roman watching Jesus dragging his cross...:whip:

CWSWine
02-20-2009, 22:17
[

If you have the patience and discipline to wait over a year to take truly 'advanced' training...you already have most of what you need. Like Rainer said...keep your gear soggy.

ps: that Flathead is a sweet reg, huh?


If you saw me dive you would probably think that I' moving along to fast:smilie39:

CWSWine
02-20-2009, 22:21
I just moved to BP/Wing and just two weeks ago purchased two x7-100 (plan to make them doubles) and one X8-119 steel tanks

That seems odd, why only one 119 instead of two, or none or 3 100s? Nothing wrong with that, just curious.

This is my rational is that I was going to double the X7-100’s in the future but still wanted at least one tank to dive singles and possibility Nitrox. The X8-119 is only slight different in buoyancy than the X7-100 and still a 24-inch tank so if figured they were almost interchangeable without major buoyancy and trim problems. Probably me just over think a problem again but it make sense to me when I purchased them. Plus I still a air hog and the extra air gives me margin - that hopefully I will over come in the near future with more dives.

Like I said, nothing wrong with the tank or size (I use 130s :D) I was wondering why only one, as most trips are usually 2 dives you would need another tank. But I guess you could use one of the 100s while they are not doubled.

No biggie!

Ok...our dives are - haul them down the hill and dive and haul them up the hills and fill them up...:smiley20:

DMWiz
02-20-2009, 22:25
Ok...our dives are - haul them down the hill and dive and haul them up the hills and fill them up...:smiley20:

I see said the blind man... :smiley20:

[Mental note, don't complain about walking on the beach to the Jax!]

Grin
02-24-2009, 14:22
I always tell people they are cheap B-turds. After a previous fishing obsession, this scuba stuff seems cheap. Examples of fishing tackle are: Penn international 50 and matching rod = $1000 each, and you need four minimum. Two or three other sets of rods and reels for lighter and heavier tackle situations. Electronics, electronics, electronics, GPS($2500), Bottom machine(2 grand), Radar ($7500), a boat to put it all on, and after you got it all you need about $300-$400 for fuel per days fishing.
I love diving: 10 grand worth of gear(sounds about what I have in it including spearguns and everything) and $100 worth of fuel per day makes me feel like a cheap B turd.
It alwasy cracks me up when I get a new speargun for $600 and people think I am spending a ton of money. Try fishing is all I got to say! I have three spearguns is all. I think we know who the cheap B Turds are! :smilie39:
Steel tanks at $400 each, is still cheaper than a single fishing reel, with no fishing line on it, and no tax, and no rod to put it on, with no lure attached. Try watching a $40 lure get clipped off by a toothy fish. Get out your bucket of 30 of them and tie another on.

No Misses
02-24-2009, 14:38
I always tell people they are cheap B-turds. .

Well, somebody sure is in a mood today. :smiley36:

Did you just call me a B-turd? :smiley13:

Grin
02-25-2009, 09:24
So you thought that was directed at you? :smiley36:

Looks like my post goes along with that long lasting thread about shutting down a good converstaion. :smilie39: This thread was flying until I posted! A day has passed and :smiley29: SHUTDOWN.

in_cavediver
02-25-2009, 11:46
I always tell people they are cheap B-turds. After a previous fishing obsession, this scuba stuff seems cheap. Examples of fishing tackle are: Penn international 50 and matching rod = $1000 each, and you need four minimum. Two or three other sets of rods and reels for lighter and heavier tackle situations. Electronics, electronics, electronics, GPS($2500), Bottom machine(2 grand), Radar ($7500), a boat to put it all on, and after you got it all you need about $300-$400 for fuel per days fishing.
I love diving: 10 grand worth of gear(sounds about what I have in it including spearguns and everything) and $100 worth of fuel per day makes me feel like a cheap B turd.
It alwasy cracks me up when I get a new speargun for $600 and people think I am spending a ton of money. Try fishing is all I got to say! I have three spearguns is all. I think we know who the cheap B Turds are! :smilie39:
Steel tanks at $400 each, is still cheaper than a single fishing reel, with no fishing line on it, and no tax, and no rod to put it on, with no lure attached. Try watching a $40 lure get clipped off by a toothy fish. Get out your bucket of 30 of them and tie another on.

I don't know. Tec diving is up there, especially trimix, cave or CCR's.

Figure doubles (may need two sets), stages, o2 bottles, computers/bottom timers, drysuit(s), reels, masks, fins, harnesses and the associated 'supplies' and 'extras'. Its comparable.

-Doubles - grand or so per set
-Stages - 150ish each ( I have 3 per diver)
-O2 bottle - 150ish each
-sidemount tanks (steel as AL suck for this in a drysuit) $350 each or so
-Regs - figure $500 per reg, want 4-5 total per diver
-Drysuit - Figure 1500-3000 each - (I have 2 of these)
-Bottom timer - 200ish
-Computer - 1500ish
-Reels - depends on number - I have 10 or 11 @ 50 each average
-Wings/harness - again 500ish per item. I have single, double and sidemount harness/wings
-HID Can light - 500-600
-backup lights - figure 30-50 each or so (need 2)

extra's
- Gas whip - $150-200ish
- O2 Analyzer - $100ish
- SMB(s) - $50-100 or so average
- Cutting tools, clips, slates, mounting kits, hardware, tools, extra hoses etc - easily another couple hundres
- masks, fins, hoods, dry gloves, wet gloves extra undergarments etc
- maintenance and rebuilds - figure another hundred or so per year (more if you don't do most of it yourself)

God forbid you add a scooter at $4000 or a CCR at $10,000

As for the 'lures', imagine paying $100+ for a tank fill only to bubble it to the surface in a couple hours.

This is why if you want to start tec diving in two years, you need to get that 2nd job now.....

CompuDude
02-25-2009, 12:49
in_cave, some of those numbers cited are pretty low. $500-600 for a can light is definitely the low end of the range, you can easily spend considerably more. Ditto for your backup lights... you figured 30-50 each, while the Oxy Raider I is among the cheaper options at $65 and the more common Scouts and Photon Torpedos are over $100 each.

in_cavediver
02-25-2009, 16:46
in_cave, some of those numbers cited are pretty low. $500-600 for a can light is definitely the low end of the range, you can easily spend considerably more. Ditto for your backup lights... you figured 30-50 each, while the Oxy Raider I is among the cheaper options at $65 and the more common Scouts and Photon Torpedos are over $100 each.

I was figuring on a smaller budget, opertunsitic shopping and a little more open minded on some things.

I personally use halogen backups still which are in the 30-50 range rather than the 3C LED delrin 1 piece deals. Are those better - maybe but the difference doesn't equate to a safety advantage in my opinion. Can lights - a 10watt HID, despite what many think, is still a lot of light and can be had for the range I gave. I use one cave diving and its great - 5 hours of burn time on a 7ah lead acid battery (replacement battery cost - $25, charger - use the car if needed but one can be had for $10 at radio shack).

I actually felt a bit guilty with the numbers I gave on things like the drysuit. My first was over 2 grand. My current suit (Dive Rite 905) I got for $600.

Still - Its a LOT of money no matter how you figure it and it took me years to get the collection I now have. (of course, I can now do just about any dive I want to, including equipping a full OW class with personal gear, which is the real point)

ianr33
02-25-2009, 17:01
If you buy smart,buy used and dont need it NOW it gets somewhat cheaper.

This is what I spent on some of my stuff:
-Doubles - New Al 80's around $550. Used 104's also $550. These have now been split up to use as sidemount tanks.
-sidemount tanks - Got a pair of Faber 95's from a buddy for $250 (for both) He was doing me a favor as he needed a sidemount partner!
-Regs - Have 4 sets of Apeks DS4/ATX50. Never paid more than around $300 (Used/new from Ebay) My O2 reg is my original Open Water reg,now O2 cleaned and converted to DIN
-Drysuit - Never been wet TLS 350 for $1000 (My best ever Ebay purchase ! )
-Bottom timer - 100 ish used
-Computer - 10 year old nitrox computer. Gets bent on dives using staged decompression but thats OK as I am following tables. One day I will break down and buy a Shearwater Pursuit.
-HID Can light - $500 very lightly used. A 10W HID is plenty of light.Lots of deals on HID's these days as LED's re strting to take over.

For sure Tech Diving is not cheap but you can reduce the costs. Also items such as used steel doubles and used Apeks regs will hold their value for years.

Also helps a lot to know other tech divers. That way you can always borrow yet another tank and reg when you need to.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
02-26-2009, 10:14
I picked up a used 10W HID with wreck canister, new bulb, and charger for this morning for less than 400 bucks. It should be plenty of light for me unless I get into caving.

in_cavediver
02-26-2009, 11:32
I picked up a used 10W HID with wreck canister, new bulb, and charger for this morning for less than 400 bucks. It should be plenty of light for me unless I get into caving.

Strictly my opinion but you have it backwards. If you subscribe to the light singalling ideas in OW, they you likely want a bigger light in OW to be seen over the sun. In caves - its dark so 10 watts goes a long way. I know guys still using 35-50 watt MR16 halogens. Personally - I don't go for the can light signalling in OW.

Rainer
02-26-2009, 11:51
I picked up a used 10W HID with wreck canister, new bulb, and charger for this morning for less than 400 bucks. It should be plenty of light for me unless I get into caving.

Strictly my opinion but you have it backwards. If you subscribe to the light singalling ideas in OW, they you likely want a bigger light in OW to be seen over the sun. In caves - its dark so 10 watts goes a long way. I know guys still using 35-50 watt MR16 halogens. Personally - I don't go for the can light signalling in OW.

Exactly. For OW *shallow* (i.e. recreational) diving, a 21W is really needed (10W just aren't useful as a signaling device; shoot a 21W barely cuts it with bright sunlight). For anything deep, a 10W works just fine. It would seem that in a cave, a 10W would also be just fine.

CompuDude
02-26-2009, 11:52
I picked up a used 10W HID with wreck canister, new bulb, and charger for this morning for less than 400 bucks. It should be plenty of light for me unless I get into caving.

Strictly my opinion but you have it backwards. If you subscribe to the light singalling ideas in OW, they you likely want a bigger light in OW to be seen over the sun. In caves - its dark so 10 watts goes a long way. I know guys still using 35-50 watt MR16 halogens. Personally - I don't go for the can light signalling in OW.

10w HID is plenty of light for diving in open water under most circumstances, especially at night and/or deep. More is often better (I prefer 21w myself), but there's nothing to sneer at with a 10w HID. Lots of my buddies use them, and while there's certainly a difference compared to my 21w, we all do just fine. Disclaimer: we dive in cold water, usually vis is 25-40' on the clearest possible days. Super clear tropical waters eat light for lunch during the day, so it's very true that bigger is better if you need to signal during the day in clearer waters.

Personally, I'm a big fan of light signals in all waters, not just overhead.

Used is a good way to save dough, but the original post didn't seem to be discussing used gear, so I was looking at different price points.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
02-26-2009, 12:55
Good to know.

My diving is almost all in excess of 90 ft offshore NC. Too much sunlight has never been an issue for me and the 10w lights many people are using seem to work just fine.

When I'm ready to upgrade, there seems to be a good used market for these lights so I should be able to recoup some of the cost.

I also picked up some unused original Highland 725 bands and hardware for dirt cheap. And the last time I was back home in Alabama I picked up a twin manifold from DiveSports. So, I will be doubling my FX120s asap. I'm still looking for a light weight backplate and a good doubles wing. I believe the wing is now the only thing I *must* have in order to move forward. I just sold my rec wing to raise some money for these purchases, so now I'm forced to buy another wing, shucks ;), Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?

MSilvia
02-26-2009, 13:33
Not suprisingly, I like my OxyCheq doubles wing.

coyote
02-28-2009, 18:36
Take it from one that knows. If you let your wife buy a horse then the cost of tech gear becomes trivial :smiley2:


Oh yeah. The cost of a couple horses and a trailer make any gear purchases seem frugal. And scuba gear doesn’t eat anything (or need vets, furriers, tack, trainers, stabling, etc…)

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
02-28-2009, 22:36
It was a cold rainy day so I built my doubles (FX120). Don't know how they will trim compared to the 104s I've dove before. Gotta buy or borrow a wing now so I can try them out.

RoyN
03-01-2009, 14:52
I prefer tanks that have a diameter of 7.25 instead of 8 because I'm really small guy.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-01-2009, 17:40
I like 7.25 because the fit a little better on the boat. The FX 120s are 7.25 but really long. I like them a lot as singles, but I'm tall enought that they don't hit me in the @ss.

I borrowed a few wings to try out.

DMWiz
03-01-2009, 20:36
It was a cold rainy day so I built my doubles (FX120). Don't know how they will trim compared to the 104s I've dove before. Gotta buy or borrow a wing now so I can try them out.

What size wing are you looking for? I may be able to help put you on a new doubles wing.

skdvr
03-02-2009, 05:27
I have worthington HP 120's as doubles and I love them... The length is nice when having to sit down with them on, on a dock, boat, or what ever. I haev borrowed a buddies 100's before and went to sit down on the dock to put my fins on and just about ended up like a turtle... I think that you will like them...

Roy, what does 8" tanks have to do with being a small guy? Most 8" tanks are rather short. If it is a weight difference that you are concerned about I think that you would be surprised that it is not that much different. I had a buddy of mine looking to get a set of doubles. Had someone offer him some HP 130's for a good price, but he did not want them beacuase he only weighs about 145 lbs, and thought that they would be way to much for him. He decided to give them a try and never looked back. Would he want to walk a 1/2 mile in them to the dive site? Heck no! But he has no problems with them at all...

Phil

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-02-2009, 09:27
It was a cold rainy day so I built my doubles (FX120). Don't know how they will trim compared to the 104s I've dove before. Gotta buy or borrow a wing now so I can try them out.

What size wing are you looking for? I may be able to help put you on a new doubles wing.

On Wednesday I'm gonna try out 3 different loaner wings- all in the 50# range. I need 43# to cover DS failure and the weight of the gas. So if I want to add a few pounds safety margin, I need at least something in the high 40s.

Heavy D
03-02-2009, 09:54
I have a 51# DR Rec Wing and a couple others if you are interested. I sent you a pm

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-02-2009, 10:00
I have a 51# DR Rec Wing and a couple others if you are interested. I sent you a pm

Just got your pm.

Trying to figure out which wing works best for me before I buy. I have a number of different wings that I have borrowed from friends to try. If the rec wing works best, I'll be in touch.

RoyN
03-02-2009, 11:50
Roy, what does 8" tanks have to do with being a small guy? Most 8" tanks are rather short. If it is a weight difference that you are concerned about I think that you would be surprised that it is not that much different. I had a buddy of mine looking to get a set of doubles. Had someone offer him some HP 130's for a good price, but he did not want them beacuase he only weighs about 145 lbs, and thought that they would be way to much for him. He decided to give them a try and never looked back. Would he want to walk a 1/2 mile in them to the dive site? Heck no! But he has no problems with them at all...

Phil

Its just way too cumbersome for me. Last time I had the faber 95 doubles, they were really huge and it covered my entire wing. I like to have things compact and low profile I guess. Most of the divers in my area uses doubles with a diameter of 7.25. I know one person who uses 130 HP but he is very heavy build and tall like MSilvia. Otherwise, I'm happy with my HP100 and planning to split my PST double and getting another set of worthingtons and use the double parts from the PST to make two set.

DMWiz
03-02-2009, 16:47
It was a cold rainy day so I built my doubles (FX120). Don't know how they will trim compared to the 104s I've dove before. Gotta buy or borrow a wing now so I can try them out.

What size wing are you looking for? I may be able to help put you on a new doubles wing.

On Wednesday I'm gonna try out 3 different loaner wings- all in the 50# range. I need 43# to cover DS failure and the weight of the gas. So if I want to add a few pounds safety margin, I need at least something in the high 40s.

Let me know how it goes and if you'd be interested in a new Oxy 50 or a Larry Green OMS 45.

CompuDude
03-02-2009, 17:55
I have worthington HP 120's as doubles and I love them... The length is nice when having to sit down with them on, on a dock, boat, or what ever. I haev borrowed a buddies 100's before and went to sit down on the dock to put my fins on and just about ended up like a turtle... I think that you will like them...

Roy, what does 8" tanks have to do with being a small guy? Most 8" tanks are rather short. If it is a weight difference that you are concerned about I think that you would be surprised that it is not that much different. I had a buddy of mine looking to get a set of doubles. Had someone offer him some HP 130's for a good price, but he did not want them beacuase he only weighs about 145 lbs, and thought that they would be way to much for him. He decided to give them a try and never looked back. Would he want to walk a 1/2 mile in them to the dive site? Heck no! But he has no problems with them at all...

Phil

Worthington X7-100 = 33 lbs full, x2 = 66 lbs

Worthington X8-119 = 42 lbs full, x2 = 84 lbs

An 18 pound difference is not insignificant. And it's a couple of pounds worse going from the X7-100 to the X8-130.

CWSWine
03-02-2009, 18:14
Worthington X7-100 = 33 lbs full, x2 = 66 lbs

Worthington X8-119 = 42 lbs full, x2 = 84 lbs

An 18 pound difference is not insignificant. And it's a couple of pounds worse going from the X7-100 to the X8-130.

I believe those are empty weights, I just put mine on scales and they both have 3500 PSI and the X7 HP100 full of air was 41.5 and X8 HP119 was 53.5 and just for kicks the AL80 with 2800 PSI was 39lbs...

skdvr
03-02-2009, 18:34
Well my thought is that the weight is supported on your back and by yoru legs so really the weight difference is not that great. Like I said though I would not want to hump them 1/2 to a dive spot. That would be MUCH easier with an 80. I guess for some people though that can be getting up there to the "to much weight for me" catagory...

Phil

CompuDude
03-02-2009, 18:35
Worthington X7-100 = 33 lbs full, x2 = 66 lbs

Worthington X8-119 = 42 lbs full, x2 = 84 lbs

An 18 pound difference is not insignificant. And it's a couple of pounds worse going from the X7-100 to the X8-130.

I believe those are empty weights, I just put mine on scales and they both have 3500 PSI and the X7 HP100 full of air was 41.5 and X8 HP119 was 53.5 and just for kicks the AL80 with 2800 PSI was 39lbs...

Yes, empty weight. Add even more weight difference to account for the larger capacity between the tanks when full.

CompuDude
03-02-2009, 18:37
Well my thought is that the weight is supported on your back and by yoru legs so really the weight difference is not that great. Like I said though I would not want to hump them 1/2 to a dive spot. That would be MUCH easier with an 80. I guess for some people though that can be getting up there to the "to much weight for me" catagory...

Phil

I don't care how you support it, 20 lbs is a noticeable weight difference unless we're talking about weighing cars!

Even with single tanks, the difference between picking up a single HP100 and a single HP119 is VERY noticeable. (those being my primary tanks that I switch between all the time... the difference is NOT subtle!)

Rainer
03-02-2009, 18:42
Well my thought is that the weight is supported on your back and by yoru legs so really the weight difference is not that great. Like I said though I would not want to hump them 1/2 to a dive spot. That would be MUCH easier with an 80. I guess for some people though that can be getting up there to the "to much weight for me" catagory...

Phil

I don't care how you support it, 20 lbs is a noticeable weight difference unless we're talking about weighing cars!

Even with single tanks, the difference between picking up a single HP100 and a single HP119 is VERY noticeable. (those being my primary tanks that I switch between all the time... the difference is NOT subtle!)

I agree, it's definitely noticeable. That said, we did LJ Shores (a decent walk, into and out of mild surf) this past Saturday in double HP130s carrying 50# scooters (well, one of us, not me, had a 35# ride). I'm far, far from the strongest guy, so the gear is definitely manageable for anyone in reasonable fitness.

Moving gear around, it makes a HUGE difference whether it's on your back or in your hand. If you can throw a plate on your cylinders, they magically seem lighter!

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-02-2009, 18:50
Well my thought is that the weight is supported on your back and by yoru legs so really the weight difference is not that great. Like I said though I would not want to hump them 1/2 to a dive spot. That would be MUCH easier with an 80. I guess for some people though that can be getting up there to the "to much weight for me" catagory...

Phil

I don't care how you support it, 20 lbs is a noticeable weight difference unless we're talking about weighing cars!

Even with single tanks, the difference between picking up a single HP100 and a single HP119 is VERY noticeable. (those being my primary tanks that I switch between all the time... the difference is NOT subtle!)

That's why I was hesitant to double my 120s. They are a lot heavier. But my 100s have the 7/8 necks which won't work with a standard manifold. Don't think it will be that big of a deal, but had the 100s been standard neck tanks I'd be diving 100s this week instead.

CompuDude
03-02-2009, 18:57
I don't care how you support it, 20 lbs is a noticeable weight difference unless we're talking about weighing cars!

Even with single tanks, the difference between picking up a single HP100 and a single HP119 is VERY noticeable. (those being my primary tanks that I switch between all the time... the difference is NOT subtle!)

That's why I was hesitant to double my 120s. They are a lot heavier. But my 100s have the 7/8 necks which won't work with a standard manifold. Don't think it will be that big of a deal, but had the 100s been standard neck tanks I'd be diving 100s this week instead.

I used to have some of those tanks and went through the same issue as you. I eventually sold them and bought more current tanks that take a standard manifold. That said, you CAN still get manifolds for those 7/8 neck tanks. People even dive them and live. ;)

Rainer
03-02-2009, 18:58
People even dive them and live. ;)

It's what MSilvia has (Asahi 100s). At least it was when we last dove together.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-02-2009, 19:05
yes. I might still get one of those manifolds, but I already had a 3/4 manifold in my locker, and I wanted to build them NOW :D. So I'll be diving them for 2 months in my drysuit as often as I can before my Adv EANx/Deco checkout dives in May.

skdvr
03-03-2009, 12:24
If you already have the manifold for the 120's I think that you should try it.

No putting a plate on your doubles does not make them lighter, but my point is that it is easier to hold them on your back then to hold them in your arms. I could throw them on my back on walk for quite a while, just trying to hold them in my hands I could not walk nearly as far... I am also not disputing the fact that a pound is a pound and the more you have the heavier that it is. My wife at 120 lbs can put my 120's on her back and walk 30 yards to the waters edge. It would be to much for her on a rocking boat to move aroudn safely or to pull herself out of the water with.

All I am saying is that if you just look at the numbers and think "Geesh, thats heavy" and never give it a shot then who knows if you would like them as doubles or not. Me personally for diving at my local quarries I like my 120's for the simple fact that they are easier for me to get into when they are sitting on the bench than the shorter 100's are. For diving off a boat I like the 100's only because they are shorter and easier to pick up and move over other things. The difference in weight does not make a bit of difference to me when they are on my back. They are both heavy.

Bouzouki - I am going to try to make a NC trip this year not sure if it will actually happen or not but I want to... Maybe we can do some diving....

Phil

Rainer
03-03-2009, 12:26
Just to check, are you using the 120s to enable yourself to get two recreational dives off the one set of doubles, or in preparation for doing one T1 level dive (150', 30 minutes BT)?

skdvr
03-03-2009, 12:35
I am taking Adv Nitrox/Deco this Spring or Summer, which is basically fundamentals course required by the instructor that I want to use for cave.

If the question was directed to me...

Phil

Rainer
03-03-2009, 12:39
Directed at whoever plans to use double 120s. Not so much a question of what class you'll be doing, but what dives you'll be doing. 240cf is a lot of gas. Way, way more than needed for a dive to 150'. I can basically get two T1 dives off a set of 130s (it's close with RB, but doable if the second dive is around 140'). Just wondering why divers knew to deeper diving want such large cylinders, that's all.

skdvr
03-03-2009, 12:44
The only reason that I bought them, was because I got a good deal on them used. Plus if I can dive them comfortably, more gas is not a bad thing...

When I use them for rec dives it is kind of nice to get 3 good dives out of them when diving with buddies in 80's.

Phil

Rainer
03-03-2009, 12:52
If you don't need the mass/gas, why swim it through the water? It's just more work, adding to CO2 build up, and increased SCR. But hey, I get 'good deals'. The reason I was swimming around 130s with nitrox for awhile on recreational dives. That said, I also knew the gear choice was stupid. But I couldn't pass up those doubles at $500...

:)

ianr33
03-03-2009, 13:36
Directed at whoever plans to use double 120s. Not so much a question of what class you'll be doing, but what dives you'll be doing. 240cf is a lot of gas. Way, way more than needed for a dive to 150'. I can basically get two T1 dives off a set of 130s (it's close with RB, but doable if the second dive is around 140'). Just wondering why divers knew to deeper diving want such large cylinders, that's all.

Its not a huge amount of gas if you are Intro Cave and diving them to sixths.

Carrying double 104's round was one of the reasons for going to sidemount.:smiley2:

Rainer
03-03-2009, 13:37
Sure it is. If you're in MX.

:)



Directed at whoever plans to use double 120s. Not so much a question of what class you'll be doing, but what dives you'll be doing. 240cf is a lot of gas. Way, way more than needed for a dive to 150'. I can basically get two T1 dives off a set of 130s (it's close with RB, but doable if the second dive is around 140'). Just wondering why divers knew to deeper diving want such large cylinders, that's all.

Its not a huge amount of gas if you are Intro Cave and diving them to sixths.

ianr33
03-03-2009, 13:39
Sure it is. If you're in MX.

:)



Thats true I guess but I have never dived those girly caves south of the border http://forum.scubatoys.com/../images/smilies/websmilie/smiley36.gif

LiteHedded
03-03-2009, 15:08
Directed at whoever plans to use double 120s. Not so much a question of what class you'll be doing, but what dives you'll be doing. 240cf is a lot of gas. Way, way more than needed for a dive to 150'. I can basically get two T1 dives off a set of 130s (it's close with RB, but doable if the second dive is around 140'). Just wondering why divers knew to deeper diving want such large cylinders, that's all.
240?
where r u getting fills?! LOL
closer to 324

Rainer
03-03-2009, 15:11
Directed at whoever plans to use double 120s. Not so much a question of what class you'll be doing, but what dives you'll be doing. 240cf is a lot of gas. Way, way more than needed for a dive to 150'. I can basically get two T1 dives off a set of 130s (it's close with RB, but doable if the second dive is around 140'). Just wondering why divers knew to deeper diving want such large cylinders, that's all.
240?
where r u getting fills?! LOL
closer to 324

You're filling HP120s to 4700 psi? That's retarded.

UCFKnightDiver
03-03-2009, 15:13
324 sounds real nice!!! but im alright with close to 300 in double 108's 293.4 I think to be exact

the tiny bit co2 buildup you would have pushing around bigger tanks wouldnt be that much of an issue I wouldnt think in a recreational profile....

What kind of math are you doing Rainer 324cu ft in LP120's is a fill of 3600 acctually it really comes out to 326 cuft.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 15:15
324 sounds real nice!!! but im alright with close to 300 in double 108's 293.4 I think to be exact

the tiny bit co2 buildup you would have pushing around bigger tanks wouldnt be that much of an issue I wouldnt think in a recreational profile....

What kind of math are you doing Rainer 324 is 3600 acctually its really 326 cuft.

If you're doing a recreational profile, what the hell are you doing hauling around 300cf? Doesn't compute.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 15:16
324 sounds real nice!!! but im alright with close to 300 in double 108's 293.4 I think to be exact

the tiny bit co2 buildup you would have pushing around bigger tanks wouldnt be that much of an issue I wouldnt think in a recreational profile....

What kind of math are you doing Rainer 324cu ft in LP120's is a fill of 3600 acctually it really comes out to 326 cuft.

Back to school. HP cylinders are at capacity at 3500 psi. If you want me to post the algebra, just say so.

UCFKnightDiver
03-03-2009, 15:20
lol I dont know who needs to go back to school LOL im in it but I will post the alegebra for you a set of Double LP120's

120cuft/2650psi =.04528....

.04528 * 3600psi = 163.018 cuft of gas

163.018cuft * 2(tanks) = 326.037 cuft of gas

And Litehedded was talking about LP cylinders not HP

3rdEye
03-03-2009, 15:20
Hey Rainer, relax man. No need to be all agro all the time.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 15:22
lol I dont know who needs to go back to school LOL im in it but I will post the alegebra for you a set of Double LP120's

120cuft/2650psi =.04528....

.04528 * 3600psi = 163.018 cuft of gas

163.018cuft * 2(tanks) = 326.037 cuft of gas

Dude, where are you getting LPs from? Follow the conversation. All references were to HP...

UCFKnightDiver
03-03-2009, 15:24
I only read this quote

Originally Posted by Rainer http://forum.scubatoys.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.scubatoys.com/techies-dir-cave-etc/21377-going-technical-10.html#post277668)
Directed at whoever plans to use double 120s. Not so much a question of what class you'll be doing, but what dives you'll be doing. 240cf is a lot of gas. Way, way more than needed for a dive to 150'. I can basically get two T1 dives off a set of 130s (it's close with RB, but doable if the second dive is around 140'). Just wondering why divers knew to deeper diving want such large cylinders, that's all.

didnt specify LP or HP, and... I can guarantee you he is not filling his cylinders to 4700 lol

Rainer
03-03-2009, 15:25
Right, and that's in response to a conversation with divers who use HP120s. Hey, it's a long thread, if you got lost, no worries. Why you missed the HP part in post 101 in your 102 response, don't know.


I only read this quote

Originally Posted by Rainer http://forum.scubatoys.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.scubatoys.com/techies-dir-cave-etc/21377-going-technical-10.html#post277668)
Directed at whoever plans to use double 120s. Not so much a question of what class you'll be doing, but what dives you'll be doing. 240cf is a lot of gas. Way, way more than needed for a dive to 150'. I can basically get two T1 dives off a set of 130s (it's close with RB, but doable if the second dive is around 140'). Just wondering why divers knew to deeper diving want such large cylinders, that's all.

didnt specify LP or HP

UCFKnightDiver
03-03-2009, 15:26
suppose I came in on the back end of the thread sorry for the confusion :smiley2:

Rainer
03-03-2009, 15:28
It's all good.

Let's move on to something more fun.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 15:31
FWIW, double 100s are not quite big enough for the typical 2 dive charter here if you subscribe to rock bottom. People diving 100s often dive with an AL80 stage on the first dive.

Doing a 3 dive rec charter is manageable with 120s or higher even without a stage.

I couldn't do 3 dives with 2 single 120s, but double them up and I can. It's great not to have to lug 3 tanks to and from the car and not to have to change out tanks between dives.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 15:34
What are the typical charter depths in NC?

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 15:39
What are the typical charter depths in NC?

The best recreational sites are in the 120-140 range. I'm signed up for one that does 2 dives at 120 and a 3rd dive at 80. Wreck penetration is possible on the 1st and 3rd dive.

Edit: maybe I did the calcs wrong but I determined that double 100s was not quite big enough for 2 dives to 120.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 15:41
What are the typical charter depths in NC?

The best recreational sites are in the 120-140 range. I'm signed up for one that does 2 dives at 120 and a 3rd dive at 80. Wreck penetration is possible on the 1st and 3rd dive.

120-140' is recreational? What kinds of BTs are you doing??? Gas choice? Doesn't seem worth a multi-hour boat ride!

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 16:05
What are the typical charter depths in NC?

The best recreational sites are in the 120-140 range. I'm signed up for one that does 2 dives at 120 and a 3rd dive at 80. Wreck penetration is possible on the 1st and 3rd dive.

120-140' is recreational? What kinds of BTs are you doing??? Gas choice? Doesn't seem worth a multi-hour boat ride!

The line between tec and rec is very blurry here as much of our so-called rec dives are basically light tec. I read in a book (don't recall which) that technical diving was originally developed in order to meet the needs of NC wreck divers.

So, yes- 120-140 is recreational (or perhaps tecreational). Last year I did a recreational charter that dove on the Naeco (140) and then dove on the Pappoose (120+) on the way back in. This year, I'm doing a 120-120-80 3 dive charter.

Edit: the most popular charters either do 2 dives at 110-130 or one at that depth followed by one in the 60-90 range.

We typically breath pre-mix 30% here. We do as much bottom time as we can get away with. Officially on rec charters you have to stick to the NDL but if you splash first and board last you can stretch it. Sometimes if the boat is diving the same site twice and you are in good with the operator you can do a single long dive instead of 2 shorter dives.

For me, it's a multi-hour drive followed by a multi-hour boat ride to the site- all day on the water, with a 50/50 chance of being blown out. It's very frustrating to drive to the coast and have the boat not go anywhere.

Is it worth it? That depends on how much you like to dive. To me, it's worth it.

MSilvia
03-03-2009, 16:14
120-140' is recreational?
It certainly was when I was first trained. My PADI air tables included dives to 130', and contingency for 140', along with information on deco stops for accidental NDL violations.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 16:20
120-140' is recreational?
It certainly was when I was first trained. My PADI air tables included dives to 130', and contingency for 140', along with information on deco stops for accidental NDL violations.

Sure, and how many minutes do you have at 140'? Worth a multi-hour trip?

Rainer
03-03-2009, 16:23
Just so I have this straight, you're doing 10-15 minute BTs on these dives (less at 140')? I guess it's clear warm water, so narcosis probably isn't the same as in NE or CA, but still, I'd take He for that (and deco gas). Man, hurry up with that deco proc course! If you think you like those dives now, you're going to LOVE them when you can actually hang around for a bit (with a clearer head if on mix). I can't wait till I come out to NC for some dives.

c



What are the typical charter depths in NC?

The best recreational sites are in the 120-140 range. I'm signed up for one that does 2 dives at 120 and a 3rd dive at 80. Wreck penetration is possible on the 1st and 3rd dive.

120-140' is recreational? What kinds of BTs are you doing??? Gas choice? Doesn't seem worth a multi-hour boat ride!

The line between tec and rec is very blurry here as much of our so-called rec dives are basically light tec. I read in a book (don't recall which) that technical diving was originally developed in order to meet the needs of NC wreck divers.

So, yes- 120-140 is recreational (or perhaps tecreational). Last year I did a recreational charter that dove on the Naeco (140) and then dove on the Pappoose (120+) on the way back in. This year, I'm doing a 120-120-80 3 dive charter.

Edit: the most popular charters either do 2 dives at 110-130 or one at that depth followed by one in the 60-90 range.

We typically breath pre-mix 30% here. We do as much bottom time as we can get away with. Officially on rec charters you have to stick to the NDL but if you splash first and board last you can stretch it. Sometimes if the boat is diving the same site twice and you are in good with the operator you can do a single long dive instead of 2 shorter dives.

For me, it's a multi-hour drive followed by a multi-hour boat ride to the site- all day on the water, with a 50/50 chance of being blown out. It's very frustrating to drive to the coast and have the boat not go anywhere.

Is it worth it? That depends on how much you like to dive. To me, it's worth it.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 16:32
120-140' is recreational?
It certainly was when I was first trained. My PADI air tables included dives to 130', and contingency for 140', along with information on deco stops for accidental NDL violations.

Sure, and how many minutes do you have at 140'? Worth a multi-hour trip?

2-1/2 hr boat ride to the site. Catching lobsters hiding in the wreck. Salvaging WW 1 artifacts. Facing off a great baracuda eyeing my reg during the 70ft deep stop. Just a 45 minute runtime, then riding back in during a thunderstorm- 5 hours back to port in at least 8 ft seas.

It was worth it to me. I would do it again in a heartbeat. I think I would hate diving in the islands with their follow-the-leader reef dives.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 16:38
I'm not knocking the dives. I'm knocking the BTs.

:)





120-140' is recreational?
It certainly was when I was first trained. My PADI air tables included dives to 130', and contingency for 140', along with information on deco stops for accidental NDL violations.

Sure, and how many minutes do you have at 140'? Worth a multi-hour trip?

2-1/2 hr boat ride to the site. Catching lobsters hiding in the wreck. Salvaging WW 1 artifacts. Facing off a great baracuda eyeing my reg during the 70ft deep stop. Just a 45 minute runtime, then riding back in during a thunderstorm- 5 hours back to port in at least 8 ft seas.

It was worth it to me. I would do it again in a heartbeat. I think I would hate diving in the islands with their follow-the-leader reef dives.

CompuDude
03-03-2009, 16:39
Again, though, what's your per-dive BT on those profiles?

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 16:43
Just so I have this straight, you're doing 10-15 minute BTs on these dives (less at 140')? I guess it's clear warm water, so narcosis probably isn't the same as in NE or CA, but still, I'd take He for that (and deco gas). Man, hurry up with that deco proc course! If you think you like those dives now, you're going to LOVE them when you can actually hang around for a bit (with a clearer head if on mix). I can't wait till I come out to NC for some dives.


I think the typical recreational diver will do about 25m BT at 120 on 30%, at least on the first dive. Second dive less of course. Typical SI is 2 hrs.

I'm signed up for the course. Starts April 6th. Final checkout dives June 13-14. I have no interest in diving (much) deeper but I do want to stay longer. To do that, I need deco gas. I do want to add He when appropriate.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 16:45
So you're well into mandatory deco.

Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you? You certainly aren't staying 25 minutes there either, right? How long?



Just so I have this straight, you're doing 10-15 minute BTs on these dives (less at 140')? I guess it's clear warm water, so narcosis probably isn't the same as in NE or CA, but still, I'd take He for that (and deco gas). Man, hurry up with that deco proc course! If you think you like those dives now, you're going to LOVE them when you can actually hang around for a bit (with a clearer head if on mix). I can't wait till I come out to NC for some dives.


I think the typical recreational diver will do about 25m BT at 120 on 30%, at least on the first dive. Second dive less of course. Typical SI is 2 hrs.

I'm signed up for the course. Starts April 6th. Final checkout dives June 13-14. I have no interest in diving (much) deeper but I do want to stay longer. To do that, I need deco gas. I do want to add He when appropriate.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 16:58
So you're well into mandatory deco.


Making you all tingly, eh? Last I checked the NDL at 120 ft is 25min with EAN30.



Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you?



Personally, I don't exceed 1.4. But plenty of people dive to 140 on 30%.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 17:05
So you're well into mandatory deco.


Making you all tingly, eh? Last I checked the NDL at 120 ft is 25min with EAN30.



Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you?

Personally, I don't exceed 1.4. But plenty of people dive to 140 on 30%.

I guess we're looking at different tables...

Yeah, I don't particularly like to run my deco PPO2 for the bottom portion of my working dive (especially if I might find currents). Then again, these days, I limit it to 1.2.

skdvr
03-03-2009, 17:13
Isnt it more recently that 1.1 or 1.2 PPO2 has been the more recommended PO2, and 1.4 was the norm for quite a while? I too stick to 1.2 though...

Phil

Rainer
03-03-2009, 17:15
A few people have toxed in the past few years at 1.4, so a few agencies have changed to a recommendation of 1.2 for the working portion of the dive (for some, that's average, for others, max). A 1.6 on the bottom (e.g. 30% at 140') is stupid. If you tox at that depth, you will very likely die.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 17:20
So you're well into mandatory deco.


Making you all tingly, eh? Last I checked the NDL at 120 ft is 25min with EAN30.



Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you?

Personally, I don't exceed 1.4. But plenty of people dive to 140 on 30%.

But seriously, what table gives 25 minutes of NDL at 120' on 30%???

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 18:06
So you're well into mandatory deco.


Making you all tingly, eh? Last I checked the NDL at 120 ft is 25min with EAN30.



Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you?

Personally, I don't exceed 1.4. But plenty of people dive to 140 on 30%.

But seriously, what table gives 25 minutes of NDL at 120' on 30%???

Sorry, my bad. I was just working from memory based on profiles I typically run. It's the limit on the minimum deco table for EAN30-32%.

jj1987
03-03-2009, 18:08
So you're well into mandatory deco.


Making you all tingly, eh? Last I checked the NDL at 120 ft is 25min with EAN30.



Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you?

Personally, I don't exceed 1.4. But plenty of people dive to 140 on 30%.

But seriously, what table gives 25 minutes of NDL at 120' on 30%???
DIR-diver.com - Using the min deco table (http://dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/min_deco_table.html)

Those tables work for 30%, just know that you're then using a 30/90gf, and minimum deco is *NOT* optional when using them. Now, why anyone would do a dive that deep, riding that close to the NDL (or MDL) without deco gas in the water, I have no idea, especially on repetitive diving.

For those who like to dive rich narcotic mixes (and higher than currently accepted ppo2's) to depths > 130ft and push it, if you'd also like some tables that don't limit you, go to MYDECOPLAN.COM (http://mydecoplan.com/) and set your Gradient Factor % to 900 & 1000. You can do a 120ft dive for 1.5 hours with no deco! Just figure out how long you want to stay down and at what depth, and you can cut tables that say it's perfectly OK.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 18:16
So you're well into mandatory deco.


Making you all tingly, eh? Last I checked the NDL at 120 ft is 25min with EAN30.



Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you?

Personally, I don't exceed 1.4. But plenty of people dive to 140 on 30%.

But seriously, what table gives 25 minutes of NDL at 120' on 30%???
DIR-diver.com - Using the min deco table (http://dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/min_deco_table.html)

Those tables work for 30%, just know that you're then using a 30/90gf, and minimum deco is *NOT* optional when using them. Now, why anyone would do a dive that deep, riding that close to the NDL (or MDL) without deco gas in the water, I have no idea, especially on repetitive diving.

That's a 32% table (yes, makes a difference), and rather hilarious, as I don't know any "DIR" diver who'd do 25 minutes at 120' on nitrox. VPM (+2) gives 14 minutes of deco for that dive.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 18:24
So you're well into mandatory deco.


Making you all tingly, eh? Last I checked the NDL at 120 ft is 25min with EAN30.



Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you?

Personally, I don't exceed 1.4. But plenty of people dive to 140 on 30%.

But seriously, what table gives 25 minutes of NDL at 120' on 30%???
DIR-diver.com - Using the min deco table (http://dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/min_deco_table.html)

Those tables work for 30%, just know that you're then using a 30/90gf, and minimum deco is *NOT* optional when using them. Now, why anyone would do a dive that deep, riding that close to the NDL (or MDL) without deco gas in the water, I have no idea, especially on repetitive diving.

No one I know would skip the stops. And who says we don't have deco gas ;)

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 18:28
That's a 32% table (yes, makes a difference), and rather hilarious, as I don't know any "DIR" diver who'd do 25 minutes at 120' on nitrox. VPM (+2) gives 14 minutes of deco for that dive.

I guess you don't know enough of them. I know several who do.

jj1987
03-03-2009, 18:31
So you're well into mandatory deco.


Making you all tingly, eh? Last I checked the NDL at 120 ft is 25min with EAN30.



Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you?

Personally, I don't exceed 1.4. But plenty of people dive to 140 on 30%.

But seriously, what table gives 25 minutes of NDL at 120' on 30%???
DIR-diver.com - Using the min deco table (http://dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/min_deco_table.html)

Those tables work for 30%, just know that you're then using a 30/90gf, and minimum deco is *NOT* optional when using them. Now, why anyone would do a dive that deep, riding that close to the NDL (or MDL) without deco gas in the water, I have no idea, especially on repetitive diving.

That's a 32% table (yes, makes a difference), and rather hilarious, as I don't know any "DIR" diver who'd do 25 minutes at 120' on nitrox. VPM (+2) gives 14 minutes of deco for that dive.
The printable PDF specifically says that it works with 30% but a higher max m-value.

UCFKnightDiver
03-03-2009, 18:31
That dive to 140 on 30% thats riding the ppo2 hard for one you add work into the equation and you may tox.... co2 contributes to narcosis so you may be pretty damn narcd if you have a current, you have very little bt

idk not for me! :smiley29:

Rainer
03-03-2009, 18:32
So you're well into mandatory deco.


Making you all tingly, eh? Last I checked the NDL at 120 ft is 25min with EAN30.



Also, you guys aren't really diving 30% at 140', are you?

Personally, I don't exceed 1.4. But plenty of people dive to 140 on 30%.

But seriously, what table gives 25 minutes of NDL at 120' on 30%???
DIR-diver.com - Using the min deco table (http://dir-diver.com/en/knowledge/min_deco_table.html)

Those tables work for 30%, just know that you're then using a 30/90gf, and minimum deco is *NOT* optional when using them. Now, why anyone would do a dive that deep, riding that close to the NDL (or MDL) without deco gas in the water, I have no idea, especially on repetitive diving.

That's a 32% table (yes, makes a difference), and rather hilarious, as I don't know any "DIR" diver who'd do 25 minutes at 120' on nitrox. VPM (+2) gives 14 minutes of deco for that dive.
The printable PDF specifically says that it works with 30% but a higher max m-value.

And I have NO idea where he got those numbers. I just ran the dive through DecoPlanner (Buhlmann, standard GUE GFs) and it gives 11 minutes of deco (similar to VPM). This is NOT an NDL dive, even if you're doing min deco.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 18:34
That's a 32% table (yes, makes a difference), and rather hilarious, as I don't know any "DIR" diver who'd do 25 minutes at 120' on nitrox. VPM (+2) gives 14 minutes of deco for that dive.

I guess you don't know enough of them. I know several who do.

Sorry, there's nothing "DIR" about doing a dive on a non-standard gas, past its mod, past its NDL, with no deco gas, past its END limit.

Who are you kidding?

You don't even seem to know what the NDLs are for this dive. 25 minutes is laughable.

jj1987
03-03-2009, 18:35
What GF did you use? He's using Buhlmann ZH-L16B with a 30/85 for 32% and 30/90 for 30%. I'm on my mac, so I don't have access to decoplanner.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 18:36
What GF did you use? He's using Buhlmann ZH-L16B with a 30/85 for 32% and 30/90 for 30%. I'm on my mac, so I don't have access to decoplanner.


I'm on my mac, too. I'm going to my other room to rerun it. I think I did 20/85 (whatever it defaults to when it boots).

Rainer
03-03-2009, 18:37
30/90 it calls for 10 minutes of deco (note, this is what RD would give if you take a 20% credit for 30%). There's really no way to consider this an NDL dive.

jj1987
03-03-2009, 18:40
30/90 it calls for 10 minutes of deco (note, this is what RD would give if you take a 20% credit for 30%). There's really no way to consider this an NDL dive.
Sure there is...just raise the gradient factors! :smiley2:

Rainer
03-03-2009, 18:42
Ha ha.

:)

in_cavediver
03-03-2009, 19:28
I don't care where you are, 1/3rds or 1/6ths. I want as much gas as I can reasonably get so I can go where I want to go. 240cft - nah. I'll take pumped tanks please, something in the 275-300cft range. 300cft is nice number, 100cft in, 100cft out with a 100 in reserve. Thats only 3700psi in my LP104's. What kind of dive can you get off 200cft of usable gas? Oh - thats right - a darn long one......

Depth isn't everything. I have a few 'deco' dives using the PADI table where the average depth was 40'-50'. It was a little over 2 hours on 32%. Sad isn't it.......

In cave diving - gas is life. If you can breathe, you can solve most other problems.


Sure it is. If you're in MX.

:)



Directed at whoever plans to use double 120s. Not so much a question of what class you'll be doing, but what dives you'll be doing. 240cf is a lot of gas. Way, way more than needed for a dive to 150'. I can basically get two T1 dives off a set of 130s (it's close with RB, but doable if the second dive is around 140'). Just wondering why divers knew to deeper diving want such large cylinders, that's all.

Its not a huge amount of gas if you are Intro Cave and diving them to sixths.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 19:32
If you care so much, why are you on OC?

:)

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 19:57
That's a 32% table (yes, makes a difference), and rather hilarious, as I don't know any "DIR" diver who'd do 25 minutes at 120' on nitrox. VPM (+2) gives 14 minutes of deco for that dive.

I guess you don't know enough of them. I know several who do.

Sorry, there's nothing "DIR" about doing a dive on a non-standard gas, past its mod, past its NDL, with no deco gas, past its END limit.

Who are you kidding?

You don't even seem to know what the NDLs are for this dive. 25 minutes is laughable.

(let me see if I can bait the DIR divers a little more by bringing computers into the mix)

People complain about Suunto being too conservative, but I did not enter mandatory decompression on my last dive to the Cassimir with 25 min BT with max actual depth 118. As you know, the tables assume a square profile, but in reality it takes a bit of time to get to 118 pulling yourself on an anchor line (estimate 5 mins). And then, do you spend the whole time at max depth? Not if there is any relief. Then the ascent also takes a while. You go slow, make a deep stop and additional stops on the way up. Hang on the bar, waiting for everyone to clear. You've probably taken 15-20 minutes for the ascent. If you analyze the actual profile in dive planning software I think you'll find that it works. When you do this you know your stops are not optional and you have a redundant gas supply large enough to let you make that ascent. You've also practiced making your own ascent line, etc.

BTW, 30% is the go-to mixhere. The MOD at 1.4 for 30% is 121 ft. 32% is too rich for the offshore dives (and yes, so is 30% if you limit to 1.2).

The DIR people I know who do this dive using MDL do not deco on back gas, but I'm pretty sure they dive 30% to 120.

texdiveguy
03-03-2009, 19:57
"In cave diving - gas is life. If you can breathe, you can solve most other problems."


In respect this sounds like many a text I have read.........gas in fact is life giving in all forms of diving , and its only assumed that with enough gas and no panic, most other issues can be solved in due time. I 100% agree that if you can have the gas available than carry it. :)

UCFKnightDiver
03-03-2009, 20:13
ahh tex nice to see you back on! hope everything is going alright now!

Rainer
03-03-2009, 20:18
The dive you just described (non-optional stops) is not an NDL dive (sort of by definition).

In any case, just to be clear, if you say you did 25 minutes at 120', most people take that to mean ... 25 minutes at 120'. You'd be better off just giving the actual BT (ignore descent time) at the average depth. MUCH more meaningful...

Sounds like these would be perfect 25/25 dives (with O2 for deco). That's how we did our own 120' dive two weekends ago (35 minute BT, though). [Also, if I just 'had' to do the dive on nitrox, I'd probably opt for 28%; 10% credit over air, better PPO2.]






That's a 32% table (yes, makes a difference), and rather hilarious, as I don't know any "DIR" diver who'd do 25 minutes at 120' on nitrox. VPM (+2) gives 14 minutes of deco for that dive.

I guess you don't know enough of them. I know several who do.

Sorry, there's nothing "DIR" about doing a dive on a non-standard gas, past its mod, past its NDL, with no deco gas, past its END limit.

Who are you kidding?

You don't even seem to know what the NDLs are for this dive. 25 minutes is laughable.

(let me see if I can bait the DIR divers a little more by bringing computers into the mix)

People complain about Suunto being too conservative, but I did not enter mandatory decompression on my last dive to the Cassimir with 25 min BT with max actual depth 118. As you know, the tables assume a square profile, but in reality it takes a bit of time to get to 118 pulling yourself on an anchor line (estimate 5 mins). And then, do you spend the whole time at max depth? Not if there is any relief. Then the ascent also takes a while. You go slow, make a deep stop and additional stops on the way up. Hang on the bar, waiting for everyone to clear. You've probably taken 15-20 minutes for the ascent. If you analyze the actual profile in dive planning software I think you'll find that it works. When you do this you know your stops are not optional and you have a redundant gas supply large enough to let you make that ascent. You've also practiced making your own ascent line, etc.

BTW, 30% is the go-to mixhere. The MOD at 1.4 for 30% is 121 ft. 32% is too rich for the offshore dives (and yes, so is 30% if you limit to 1.2).

The DIR people I know who do this dive using MDL do not deco on back gas, but I'm pretty sure they dive 30% to 120.

jj1987
03-03-2009, 20:22
OK, so what these divers were realistically doing was averaging depth in their head and then using avg depth for NDL limits, *not* diving 120ft 25min NDL dives. Big difference.

We did a dive that was close to 4 hours Saturday, with an avg depth of 50ft, and max depth of 77ft and had apprx 13min deco. I don't consider that a 77ft dive, I consider that a 50ft dive.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 20:24
Huge difference.

texdiveguy
03-03-2009, 20:37
ahh tex nice to see you back on! hope everything is going alright now!

I am still in the recovery phase....but things are looking brighter each day thanks to great folks like yourself!!!! Thanks man.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-03-2009, 21:39
The dive you just described (non-optional stops) is not an NDL dive (sort of by definition).

In any case, just to be clear, if you say you did 25 minutes at 120', most people take that to mean ... 25 minutes at 120'. You'd be better off just giving the actual BT (ignore descent time) at the average depth. MUCH more meaningful...

Sounds like these would be perfect 25/25 dives (with O2 for deco). That's how we did our own 120' dive two weekends ago (35 minute BT, though). [Also, if I just 'had' to do the dive on nitrox, I'd probably opt for 28%; 10% credit over air, better PPO2.]






That's a 32% table (yes, makes a difference), and rather hilarious, as I don't know any "DIR" diver who'd do 25 minutes at 120' on nitrox. VPM (+2) gives 14 minutes of deco for that dive.

I guess you don't know enough of them. I know several who do.

Sorry, there's nothing "DIR" about doing a dive on a non-standard gas, past its mod, past its NDL, with no deco gas, past its END limit.

Who are you kidding?

You don't even seem to know what the NDLs are for this dive. 25 minutes is laughable.

(let me see if I can bait the DIR divers a little more by bringing computers into the mix)

People complain about Suunto being too conservative, but I did not enter mandatory decompression on my last dive to the Cassimir with 25 min BT with max actual depth 118. As you know, the tables assume a square profile, but in reality it takes a bit of time to get to 118 pulling yourself on an anchor line (estimate 5 mins). And then, do you spend the whole time at max depth? Not if there is any relief. Then the ascent also takes a while. You go slow, make a deep stop and additional stops on the way up. Hang on the bar, waiting for everyone to clear. You've probably taken 15-20 minutes for the ascent. If you analyze the actual profile in dive planning software I think you'll find that it works. When you do this you know your stops are not optional and you have a redundant gas supply large enough to let you make that ascent. You've also practiced making your own ascent line, etc.

BTW, 30% is the go-to mixhere. The MOD at 1.4 for 30% is 121 ft. 32% is too rich for the offshore dives (and yes, so is 30% if you limit to 1.2).

The DIR people I know who do this dive using MDL do not deco on back gas, but I'm pretty sure they dive 30% to 120.

Confusion probably my fault for using PADI definition of bottom time: from beginning of descent to beginning of final ascent to surface (or safety stop). I'm sure formal training will help with my terminology.

Rainer
03-03-2009, 21:58
I can see where the confusion arises.

When starting to consider decompression obligations, for dives with a reasonable window in depth changes, with not too much yo-yoing, you can just get away with the average depth (no counting descent if made in a normal quick way) to compute the necessary deco. Or at least, that's how those I dive with do it.

kat
03-03-2009, 23:26
OMG! Never, never, never total up the costs of scuba diving!

There is a vortex of space and time that will always show the total about 10x higher than reality. How do I know? Becuase I know how much I told my wife I spent! :)
I think my husband did the same thing with his gear... but he loves his Galilelo SOL.

in_cavediver
03-04-2009, 05:01
If you care so much, why are you on OC?

:)

I can;t afforrd the CCR just yet....

LiteHedded
03-05-2009, 07:09
Directed at whoever plans to use double 120s. Not so much a question of what class you'll be doing, but what dives you'll be doing. 240cf is a lot of gas. Way, way more than needed for a dive to 150'. I can basically get two T1 dives off a set of 130s (it's close with RB, but doable if the second dive is around 140'). Just wondering why divers knew to deeper diving want such large cylinders, that's all.
240?
where r u getting fills?! LOL
closer to 324

You're filling HP120s to 4700 psi? That's retarded.
lol
thought you meant lp120s

Rainer
03-05-2009, 09:41
All good man, all good.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-05-2009, 14:41
Well, I just dove the Hp120s for the first dive. Water was a balmy 46. We did valve drills. We ran a reel through a submerged rock crusher and folowed it back out blind. The people I was with said I looked great and very comfortable- but to me it felt very awkward. But that's probably cuz I had never done reel work in doubles before. When reeling back in I immediately saw the value of having a can light.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-06-2009, 11:44
On the second dive, my buddy blew an o-ring in his primary second stage and he had shut down the post. His pumped up 104s would have emptied in no-time. I'm glad this happened early on in my doubles career. It drives home the importance of those valve drills.