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in_cavediver
03-07-2009, 07:26
As it states - someone had to post something

UCFKnightDiver
03-07-2009, 08:47
Well Ill post something Im signed up for an Intro to Cave with Doubles class on March 28-29 taking it with Jeff Bauer NACD. Really looking forward to the class!

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-07-2009, 10:51
I'm considering Cavern and Intro this spring. Figure it will help me with my wreck diving. Hopefully I won't get the cave bug, though.

in_cavediver
03-07-2009, 12:53
I don't know, aside from the checkbook depleting issues, the cave bug isn't all that bad. I mean, diving is clear clean water rather than cold murky water. Not having to worry about the weather condtions etc. Its all good.

UCFKnightDiver
03-07-2009, 17:46
personally I would suggest you not combine cavern and intro....

ektess1
03-07-2009, 19:09
personally I would suggest you not combine cavern and intro....

Why? It is a pretty common compination.

ianr33
03-07-2009, 19:12
personally I would suggest you not combine cavern and intro....

I combined cavern and intro. I found cavern to be pretty trivial but intro was a challenge. Did a couple of trips to Florida then did the Full Cave course. Worked very well for me.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-07-2009, 19:14
personally I would suggest you not combine cavern and intro....

That's interesting. A well-known and very respected caver suggested that I combine the two (in doubles). Can you tell me your reasoning for not combining them?

UCFKnightDiver
03-07-2009, 19:28
Well first off why progress quickly when theres lots of caverns out there to dive? Also unless your real comfortable Cavern and Intro will be real difficult, my instructor at the end of my cavern class told me I could have combined them, but I am glad I waited so I could see all the caverns that I could dive. Now im getting ready to do intro and I feel really confident going in. That being said I will probably combine apprentice and full. It just seems like a great idea to get familiar and proficient at the core skills of cave diving that you learn in a cavern class in a more benign cavern environment then to progress into the cave and not have at least some expirience to fall back on if **** hits the fan. IMO its too far too fast, but take it with a grain of salt Im taking the intro class March 28-29th so.... Ill tell you what I think when I finish. Wish me luck :)

Vegas
03-07-2009, 23:26
I am glad you posted....This turned into an interesting discussion!

especially because...of course....
*I feel this bug a-biting*
:D

in_cavediver
03-08-2009, 13:41
Well, I did cavern/intro together (NACD) using an HP120 with a H-valve. I enjoyed it and it was nice to venture a bit farther from the entrance with the right gear. 3 months later, I was back with doubles to do full cave.

My wife did cavern, then waited 9 months before combining intro and full cave. (man, her classes were two expensive trips for us - new can light, new doubles, new drysuit, 3 regs, o2 bottles, transpac).

I can't say one was better than the other. In the end, we both knew we wanted to be full cave divers and we both liked having the gap between classes to hone skills to make the final class(es) that much better. I personally loved my full cave class. The dives were relaxing to me. My wifes class was a bit rougher until she announced she was buying a new drysuit mid way through. (that fixed most of her issues)

In the end, do what is right for you. There isn't a right or wrong answer here. If you aren't ready to go beyond cavern, you instructor won't take you.

jj1987
03-14-2009, 11:48
If I were to do it over again, I'd do an intro to tech or fundies type class, and then cavern+intro together as well as Apprentice+Full together, in doubles/drysuit from the very beginning of cave training.

ektess1
03-14-2009, 11:59
Why is a drysuit necessary? Is it for thermal protection or for redunant lift?

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
03-14-2009, 12:04
Why is a drysuit necessary? Is it for thermal protection or for redunant lift?

IMO, thermal protection. It's important to stay warm can during your deco stops to help with off-gassing. Redundant buoyancy is an incidental benefit. Having some form of redundant buoyancy is important considering how over-weighted you can be with all that gear,

jj1987
03-14-2009, 12:11
Why is a drysuit necessary? Is it for thermal protection or for redunant lift?
I suggest that because some of your apprentice/full cave dives are going to run over an hour or even 1.5 hours. That's a LONG time to be in the water without a drysuit.

Heck, I was diving dry on some single tank reef/wreck dives in Ft Laud. this weekend and wasn't too hott...it doesn't have to be freezing to dive dry! :-)

ianr33
03-14-2009, 12:43
If I were to do it over again, I'd do an intro to tech or fundies type class, and then cavern+intro together as well as Apprentice+Full together, in doubles/drysuit from the very beginning of cave training.

Thats a good point. IMHO whether it is appropriate to combine cavern with intro or not really depends on where you are coming from. When I did my cavern/intro I had been deco certified for a few years and was doing deco dives most weekends in doubles and drysuit,normally with crappy viz.
That meant I was only learning one thing new,how to dive caves. Anyone trying to learn doubles and cave diving while being in an overhead environment for the first time will likely have a difficult time of it.

in_cavediver
03-14-2009, 16:19
Why is a drysuit necessary? Is it for thermal protection or for redunant lift?

IMO, thermal protection. It's important to stay warm can during your deco stops to help with off-gassing. Redundant buoyancy is an incidental benefit. Having some form of redundant buoyancy is important considering how over-weighted you can be with all that gear,

I wouldn't discount the point about redundant lift. Do the math on a cave filled set of 104's, 108's, 112's or 121's (or thier HP equivalents) and you'll find you don't have a balanced rig. I've personally been in the water with 280-300cft of gas on my back. (roughly 4 AL80s or 24lbs of gas). Redundant lift is important there.

ianr33
03-14-2009, 17:35
. I've personally been in the water with 280-300cft of gas on my back. (roughly 4 AL80s or 24lbs of gas). Redundant lift is important there.

Most gas I've had would be around 440 CuFt (sidemount 104's @3600 and 2 Al 80 stages) Thats 33lb of gas. A wing failure in the wrong place at the wrong time could cause you to disappear in 10 feet of silty ooze never to be seen again !

in_cavediver
03-14-2009, 18:32
. I've personally been in the water with 280-300cft of gas on my back. (roughly 4 AL80s or 24lbs of gas). Redundant lift is important there.

Most gas I've had would be around 440 CuFt (sidemount 104's @3600 and 2 Al 80 stages) Thats 33lb of gas. A wing failure in the wrong place at the wrong time could cause you to disappear in 10 feet of silty ooze never to be seen again !

I wasn't even counting stages!

Still, its great to start a dive with enough gas for a 6 pack of rec divers isn't it!
(pumped 104's = 300cft, 2x 80's=154cft, 45cft of o2 for a grand total of - 500cft or so!)

ianr33
03-14-2009, 19:19
Still, its great to start a dive with enough gas for a 6 pack of rec divers isn't it!


Yes.

Once you have actually got all that crap into the water !

mksmith713
03-23-2009, 10:46
Does anyone know if I'll need a cave cert to dive the Cenotes in the Yucatan?

ianr33
03-23-2009, 18:05
Does anyone know if I'll need a cave cert to dive the Cenotes in the Yucatan?

Assuming you are planning on a guided cavern tour,no.

If you are wanting to penetrate several thousand feet,yes.

mksmith713
03-27-2009, 14:56
Not looking to penetrate thousands of feet.

in_cavediver
03-27-2009, 17:56
Not looking to penetrate thousands of feet.

Its pretty simple distinction. If you aren't cave trained, you only dive with a guide under fairly controlled circumstances in specific areas. If you are Cave trained - you can dive with a guide or without, your choice and in many different areas - again, your choice.

clararhb
03-30-2009, 15:32
What is the allure of cave diving?

jj1987
03-30-2009, 16:03
What is the allure of cave diving?
Indian Spring Divers (http://www.campindiansprings.org/campamp/CAMP/CampAmpVideo/61C10740-6BD1-4B75-9EC5-DAB6DEC89637.html)
Scuba Diving Videos Ginnie Springs 2008 Scuba Videos (http://scubadivingtube.com/play.php?vid=497)
Nohoch Nah Chich (Albertos Line) Nov 2008 on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/2481124)
Jackson Blue Trailer on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/1957625)

in_cavediver
03-30-2009, 17:57
What is the allure of cave diving?

For me, I get enjoyment on several fronts

First - the areas I visit I find to be absolutely beatiful. To some, its just wet rocks. To others - its stunning nature.

I also really enjoy the technical aspects to it. It requires great dive skills, careful attention to details and a very honest appraisal of yourself. I have yet to meet a cocky cave diver.

Then of course, there is the fact that in a lot of respects - I am a run of the mill average diver in those circles. In most rec diving contexts, I find I am considered more of an expert. Down in cave country - I am just another run of the mill out of town diver who is there for a little recreation. Its great to not be looked upon as a safety net or a guide or to be limited by others.

LiteHedded
03-31-2009, 07:26
What is the allure of cave diving?

For me, I get enjoyment on several fronts

First - the areas I visit I find to be absolutely beatiful. To some, its just wet rocks. To others - its stunning nature.

I also really enjoy the technical aspects to it. It requires great dive skills, careful attention to details and a very honest appraisal of yourself. I have yet to meet a cocky cave diver.

Then of course, there is the fact that in a lot of respects - I am a run of the mill average diver in those circles. In most rec diving contexts, I find I am considered more of an expert. Down in cave country - I am just another run of the mill out of town diver who is there for a little recreation. Its great to not be looked upon as a safety net or a guide or to be limited by others.
LOL
really?

JahJahwarrior
03-31-2009, 12:01
I also really enjoy the technical aspects to it. It requires great dive skills, careful attention to details and a very honest appraisal of yourself. I have yet to meet a cocky cave diver.


How many cave divers have you met?

in_cavediver
03-31-2009, 19:28
I also really enjoy the technical aspects to it. It requires great dive skills, careful attention to details and a very honest appraisal of yourself. I have yet to meet a cocky cave diver.


How many cave divers have you met?

I guess I should have said - met and planned to dive with....... (they have all been honest with comfort level etc)

Outside of diving well...............

clararhb
03-31-2009, 19:41
Thanks for the info guys. I guess I won't be diving caves. I have to look at every little thing. Scootering by just wouldn't cut it for me.

JahJahwarrior
03-31-2009, 20:06
To be fair, there are plenty of humble cave divers.

Everybody in cave country hates somebody else...it's an interesting place.

clararhb
03-31-2009, 20:12
And some have to wait for their heads to go down before they can dive the caves, right??

jj1987
03-31-2009, 22:23
Thanks for the info guys. I guess I won't be diving caves. I have to look at every little thing. Scootering by just wouldn't cut it for me.
A scooter is a tool, nothing more. Owning a scooter does NOT mean you have to haul butt 5000ft back in a cave or attempt to make every dive a world record. I know several scooter divers simply use the scooter to get to a place where they plan to park the scooter and swim from. I fully plan to purchase a scooter when funds are available for me, they can extend range, limit diver exertion and limit deco all at the same time.

clararhb
04-01-2009, 10:14
Do you normally see some type of life?..fish, crabs, etc.

gander
04-01-2009, 10:26
Life is typically sparse, but it is there. You can see a few fish way back in the cave and then the troglobitic creatures (i.e., white/clear crayfish, etc.)

clararhb
04-01-2009, 10:40
OK so the longer I go on this subject the less I understand as to why you dive caves. In-cave dive did give me a bit of a reason..not that you need a reason.

JahJahwarrior
04-01-2009, 11:48
Clararhb: Why do people go on treasure hunts? Why do people go through mazes? Why did Colombus sail the ocean blue? Why do people work on puzzles?

Cave diving, for me, has many appeals.

First, and the answer to the questions above, I cave dive because I like discovering things. I also like to see things relatively few people see. I've seen cave that's not even marked on a map, and that's an amazing feeling, going where (probably) no one has gone before. (if they went there, they didn't bother to put it on the map) I have a curious nature and I like discovering things.

Secondly, as a cave diver, I have honed my diving skills well beyond the "average" diver. I gain satisfaction knowing that I have put great amounts of time into becoming a very skilled and thus, safe diver.

Third, the gear is fun...I like gadgets and things and cave diving comes with lots of nifty things. (expensive too...)

Fourth, in Florida, we are at the mercy of karst terrain. As a cave diver, I have been able to see firsthand what lies inside of these sinkholes and under our land. I've spent a great deal of time studying the geologic history and processes that formed and form Florida.


There is life in the caves, and much of it is unique to the cave: it would not survive in any other environment. As a member of the NACD Bio Team, I have received basic training in counting some of this life, and I'm amazed how much of it there is in some places. I've seen catfish a thousand feet back in one cave, and in another, I counted over a thousand isopods in just 200' of passage, and there's no way I counted even half of them, there were just that many of the little guys.

If you don't want to cave dive, then don't. If you do, then get the training.

clararhb
04-01-2009, 16:20
In other words..why do you dive caves, because you can. :) I just don't think that I would enjoy it enough.

in_cavediver
04-01-2009, 16:31
In other words..why do you dive caves, because you can. :) I just don't think that I would enjoy it enough.

Its probably more like mountain climbing. It takes a bit more effort and committment than just deciding to do it. It also takes a fairly big financial commitment as well.

UCFKnightDiver
04-01-2009, 18:16
Clarahb when/if you feel ready I would suggest you take a cavern class, that way you can see if you like it, get a few dives under your belt though, so you can make it worth while. Got to have all the open water skills down pat or you wont have a great time in the class. Even if you decide you dont like it, I guarantee the class will make you a much better diver!

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
04-01-2009, 18:29
Not official but it looks like I am doing cavern at Ginnie and some fun dives at Peacock on the 11th and 12th.

UCFKnightDiver
04-01-2009, 18:31
Of April or May? Well let me know Ill come do a dive or two with you If you would like. Is this a cavern class by chance, or just some fun dives? I should be at Ginnie on Aprill 11th.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
04-01-2009, 19:05
Of April or May? Well let me know Ill come do a dive or two with you If you would like. Is this a cavern class by chance, or just some fun dives? I should be at Ginnie on Aprill 11th.

It' still nebulous but it's looking like Ginnie for Cavern on April 10th and 11th and Peacock for fun on the 12th.

I'm doing cavern for three reasons: to see what this cave/cavern thing is all about, to gain skills to become a better wreck diver, and just to get in a few more dives in my doubles and drysuit before I do Adv Nitrox/Deco checkouts in June.

ianr33
04-01-2009, 20:08
In other words..why do you dive caves, because you can. :) I just don't think that I would enjoy it enough.


Thats fine. Do whatever turns YOU on. Its all about having fun