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Venio
07-11-2007, 20:49
I see no one has posted in this forum yet, so I decided to stir up those waters. smileys/smiley1.gif

I'm all confused about this DIR thing (forgive me, I'm newbie). Why is called Doing It Right, and if that is true am I DIW (Doing It Wrong) since I'm taking NAUI OW? Just want to get idea of what is it, and if I'm missing something that I shouldn't.

mwhities
07-11-2007, 21:32
http://www.gue.com

Should provide you with your answers.

Michael

CompuDude
07-11-2007, 21:46
DIR is an old acronym that divers are trying to move away from for that very reason. The divers that subscribe to that diving philosophy do indeed feel that there is a safer, more flexible way of doing things than is currently taught in most classes, but the "DIR" moniker just has too much negative connotations at this point.

GUE is the organization that leads the [formerly] DIR training system.

There is no problem with starting off by taking NAUI OW courses, however. If you're interested, GUE can continue your education once you have learned the basics of diving, but at this point they do not teach beginning divers.

mwhities
07-11-2007, 21:53
Ohh and as a matter of fact.... I'm SSI OW and I will eventually take GUE/DIR Fundies but, I'm going to poke Joe and get him to set me up with NAUI AOW course. I like the things I've been hearing about NAUI. It's not like any other agency in the aspect that you can only teach what they want and it's usually the bare minimum.

So, I say go for the NAUI OW and AOW and whatever else. Get a lot of dives under your belt so you can find "your style" of diving. If DIR suits you.... go for it. If not, then you will find your way.

Michael

Michael

cummings66
07-11-2007, 22:40
Get their book, it's pretty interesting and will probably give you things to think about.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>My only beef with them is that the failure rate is so high, I don't buy the fail and come back later bit. I believe a course should be long enough to impart the knowledge and skills needed to pass it, assuming average intellect and abilities.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>If the course is so hard that nobody can absorb the data being presented in it's entirety then break it up into sections so that you can manage it. To make it almost mandatory to fail is IMO it's only failing and one of the reasons I haven't taken it yet.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>That said, I like to take a course that I know will challenge me, one that I know I might fail if I don't buckle down and study and work on the skills. But I want a course that if I do my part Iwill pass it.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Could I pass it? Who knows? Probably not from what I understand. From what I've been told if you're good they expect more from you, so a better diver would fail it when Imight pass it because he was tested to a tougher standard.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>PS, I've seen some mighty good DIR divers in the water. Some of the best skills around, but I've seen the equal in technical divers as well.</DIV>

CompuDude
07-11-2007, 23:04
Considering the training, the distinction between DIR divers and technical divers is murky at best, although from the DIR perspective it of course comes down to team philosophies and details of gear configuration.

I'll taking the Fundamentals course in Sept. I'll be quite surprised if I pass, as pleasing as would be to do so. That's ok, though... even if I don't "pass" (and what does "pass" mean to you, in this context?), I'll have been given the groundwork for what to work on, and can simply re-test later down the line... you don't have to take the entire class over again unless they actually FAIL you (which means essentially you are an unsafe diver who should reevaluate getting back into the water).

Venio
07-12-2007, 15:48
One thing that struck me while reading though their web site was the dogmatic view on the equipment used. It seams to restrictive the way that everything is prescribed. For example, the location of your dive knife and the type of fins! Can
someone explain me why one can't use split fins (I love my Bio fins)?

I do agree with them when it comes to streamlining, which can help reduce drag and from there the fatigue on the diver.

Jeff
07-12-2007, 16:21
Venio,

First a qualification on my level. I've only done NAUI Intro to Tech, and only have minimal dives outside of recreational limits. There's others on here more qualified to give the reasons behind the restrictive nature of gear recommendations, but I'll give it a shot.

"Technical" diving can be many things, but in general, you're diving outside of recreational limits. The risks are considerably greater, and you have less of a margin for error if something goes wrong. Part of the restrictive nature is the durability of gear (not to imply that other gear is unreliable), and minimization of potential failure points. A major part, though, is in the event of an emergency situation, having everyone equipped the same way, there's no "figuring out" how someone has their gear configured. Everything is in exactly the same place on everyone, so in total darkness, you still know exactly where a particular piece of gear is located, reducing response time.

As for split fins... there are certain finning techniques that splits just don't do well. Swimming backwards, for instance. I took Intro with my Apollo Bios, and then immediately went out and bought a pair of blades.

CompuDude
07-12-2007, 16:24
One thing that struck me while reading though their web site was the dogmatic view on the equipment used. It seams to restrictive the way that everything is prescribed. For example, the location of your dive knife and the type of fins! Can
someone explain me why one can't use split fins (I love my Bio fins)?

I do agree with them when it comes to streamlining, which can help reduce drag and from there the fatigue on the diver.


Many reasons why you can't use splits. First in wrecks and caves, splits have a nasty tendency to get tangled in the lines. Second, in the conditions technical cave and wreck diving is done, the most commonly used kick is a the frog kick, to avoid silting, which can be deadly in confined spaces like that. Split fins are fun and easy to kick, and you CAN frog kick in them, but not as efficiently as you can with paddle fins. Other kicks such as the backwards kick (where you actually swim backwards!) are nearly impossible to do in splits.

The thing to realize about DIR gear requirements is this: There are two main concerns. The first is team standardization... everyone needs to have their gear set up the exact same way. No surprises in an emergency. The second is that they promote learning something ONCE and not having to change it, no matter how your dive conditions change. As a result, a lot of things that seem silly and overkill on an easy reef dive within the NDLs are of critical importance while cave diving or doing a wreck penetration dive at 200'. The Law of Primacy dictates you remember how to do something the way you were first taught it, best. As a result, the best way to learn a skill is to learn the way you will using it in the future. Being familiar with a standard DIR gear configuration means nothing needs to change, no matter how far your diving takes you. You can wear the EXACT SAME rig diving an easy 40' reef as you do diving 250' down in a cave.

Standardization is everything when you're in really dangerous overhead conditions, and DIR gear is carefully thought out to be the most reliable gear configuration for those dangerous conditions. Again, much of that is not needed for an easy tour around a shallow quarry or reef. But by being familiar with it, you're not getting used to new gear in new places when you take the same rig into the wreck.

liuk3
07-12-2007, 16:58
<DIV>My only beef with them is that the failure rate is so high, I don't buy the fail and come back later bit. </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I've always wondered about this. The course costs a chunk of change at something like $550 for weekend I believe. </DIV>
<DIV>If you fail, do you have to pay another $550? </DIV>
<DIV>Then, if you fail again, do you have to pay another $550?</DIV>
<DIV>Or, do they just stick with you until you pass?</DIV>
<DIV>Just wondering.</DIV>

CompuDude
07-12-2007, 17:07
You have a certain amount of time to re-test, and the re-testing does not cost the same amount (if any). I can't recall the specifics. Of course, if you have to travel significantly to get to the course, it may still cost you a bit.

cummings66
07-12-2007, 18:43
If you get a provisional the retest is normally free unless the instructor must travel to meet with you. Then you get to pay for that. I don't know how many times they'd allow you to retest, but I'll bet it won't be many.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I do not know what happens if you out and out fail the course. What I hear most say is that they hope for a provisional, most already know ahead of time that no matter how hard or how good they are they will fail. Sometimes it's as simple as your instabuddy for the class if you're unlucky enough can't handle it, you'll fail if he fails. To pass both of you must pass, it's a team thing. That was the answer given to me. I disagree strongly with them failing me because my buddy was poor, or for that matter I'd hate to make somebody fail because I couldn't cut it. That is not right in my book. Somebody has the skills and they fail because the insta buddy didn't, but that's how it is.</DIV>

mwhities
07-13-2007, 13:04
From the article "What's Up with GUE's Fundamentals Course?"
by Beto Nava appearing in Quest 8.2*

The New Format
*

In 2005, an upgraded Fundamentals program was designed and prototyped at several key facilities
around the world; the guiding idea of the redesign was

that the class would serve a dual function. On one

hand it would provide a foundation of basic skills that

every diver should possess in order to safely and

efficiently perform in the underwater environment. On

the other hand it would prepare students for more

advanced training and make sure they did not attempt

to move forward until they were ready.

With this dual function in mind, an expanded, four-day

class was drafted. This new class consisted of at least

ten hours of lecture and five hours of land exercises,

and required a minimum of five dives.

The objective of this redesigned course was to allow

students plenty of time to learn and master skills. At

the same time, material that was previously covered

in the first few sessions of Cave 1 and Tech 1, but

essential to recreational diving, was incorporated into

Fundamentals. For example, Nitrox is now part of the

Fundamentals class as is the basic rescue of an

unconscious/convulsing diver.

To resolve the pass/fail problem, a two-tiered certification

system was crafted. Within Fundamentals training,

students can choose to have their skill-set measured

by either a strictly recreational standard or by a

more demanding "technical" standard (testifying to

their readiness for advanced GUE training). Their

certifications reflect this difference. This new system

allows instructors more flexibility to address the

specific goals of each student and establishes clear

and realistic expectations/requirements for passing at

each level of certification.

Students who enroll in Fundamentals seeking a recreational

endorsement may take the class in a single tank

and are not required to carry a canister light. In terms

of lecture, class-time, and materials, they will be

exposed to the same material as those enrolling in

Fundamentals seeking a technical endorsement: both

groups will be instructed on dive planning, teamwork,

and situational awareness. In terms of in-water skills,

the strictly recreational group will share the same

learning outcomes as the technically geared group

except that some of the skills are less complex (i.e.,

the valve drill is truncated due to having a single

valve to manipulate), and the standards for what is

acceptable for a pass will be slightly lower.

Trainees intending to register for GUE Cave or Technical

training must first pass Fundamentals with a technical

endorsement. Such an endorsement would make

reasonable trainee expectations that they will pass

their next class on their first attempt.

In addition to demonstrating a higher level of capacity

in buoyancy, propulsion, and trim, this group of divers

is required to take the class in gear appropriate for

technical diving; e.g., double cylinders, canister light,

two back-up lights, drysuit (for cold water), etc. With

respect to skill evaluation, members of this group

must receive a minimum grade of four on every skill to

pass (this is on a scale of one to five, with five being

the highest.)

Given these new standards, instructors are left with

two questions to answer when considering class outcomes.

When considering passing a trainee seeking

recreational endorsement, the question should be: Has

the student understood enough of the material and

demonstrated a basic level of proficiency to safely

progress in their diving? For a trainee seeking technical

endorsement the questions should be: Is this student's

foundation rock-solid? Are they ready for the

rigors of more advanced diving?

This course redesign not only accommodates the needs

of a larger diving community, but also allows for

drawing more subtle distinctions in terms of competencies

and desired outcomes. As such it seems to work

well in terms of satisfying the dual purpose of the

Fundamentals class.</pre>

cummings66
07-13-2007, 13:25
What is Quest?

CompuDude
07-13-2007, 13:33
What is Quest?
A magazine from GUE. I believe their is an online component as well, only available to subscribers/members, however.

http://www.gue.com/Quest/index.html


There is a mailing list as well, again, only open to paid members.

liuk3
07-13-2007, 16:04
Thanks for the clarification. I had originally thought about doing the fundamentals, especially after I contacted an instructor who told me that he welcomes new divers to the class. However, after I started to do more reading, it looked like it is a tought class to pass, so maybe I will take it potentially at a later date once I've gotten much more experience/training.

SiscoKid
07-13-2007, 16:14
<DIV>Is there a DIR forCCR divers? There is a lot of CCRs out there for all to be the same configuration. I dive the Optima CCR, grate unit.</DIV>

CompuDude
07-13-2007, 16:27
<div>Is there a DIR forCCR divers? There is a lot of CCRs out there for all to be the same configuration. I dive the Optima CCR, grate unit.</div>
Short answer is "no". Unless I am mixing my terminology up, there are no DIR-approved CCRs.

There is one SCR they are ok with (RB80), but the prereqs are pretty steep (Tech2, for instance), and in general, I'd say they're more about open circuit.

http://www.gue.com/Training/Technical/rebreather.html

cummings66
07-13-2007, 16:36
However, after I started to do more reading, it looked like it is a tought class to pass, so maybe I will take it potentially at a later date once I've gotten much more experience/training.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Here's what they told me, don't worry about passing or failing. It's about learning new things and becoming better. Later on if you decide to get the card retest over the things you didn't do well on.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>It's not about passing. That's what I was told, I appreciate the fact it's a tough class though, just not the fact that the odd's are not in your favor to pass.</DIV>

SiscoKid
07-13-2007, 16:51
<DIV>There dose seem to be a lot of OC going to CCR for technical diving.</DIV>

woody
07-13-2007, 17:36
Short answer is "no". Unless I am mixing my terminology up, there are no DIR-approved CCRs.

There is one SCR they are ok with (RB80), but the prereqs are pretty steep (Tech2, for instance), and in general, I'd say they're more about open circuit.

http://www.gue.com/Training/Technical/rebreather.html
<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

There happen to be a few of highly thought of GUE/DIR divers that do happen to dive CCR units. Now does GUE certify divers in any unit other that the Halcyon RB80. No. Why? Because that is the current unit that they have experience in and continue to meets their needs. Will that change. I imagine that a new unit or modifications to the current one might start development soon as their research teams (WKPP actual dives) are beginning toreach the functional limits of a single unit.

So the questions becomes can DIR philosphies be applied to a CCR unit?
Some think so http://www.dirrebreather.com/
I don't know exactly who these guys are or what they teach or their background.

I do dive a CCR and I do dive DIR.
Thanks,
Woody

CompuDude
07-13-2007, 17:50
The question I answered was "Is there a DIR for CCR divers?"

DIR divers, however skilled, who happen to applying some DIR principles while diving in CCRs does not make CCRs DIR.

I refer you to the dreaded "Monkey Diving" thread on ScubaBoard, should it ever come back to life.

This may change in the future, of course, but as things stand now, there are no official DIR-approved ways to use or train for a CCR. Things get stickier if you start to get into GUE vs. DIR (generally), but for now it's safe to say the GUE website is the official word, and the RB80 (an SCR not a CCR) is the only non-OC device currently officially endorsed by GUE.

WaterRat
07-16-2007, 14:44
Based on what I've read, the main reasons for not having a "DIR" approved CCR is the electronics and standard breathing gas.GUEhas identifiedthe additional failure points of the electronics, O2 sensors, etc... as being too risky.Also with a CCR you usually have to have a stage/bailout bottle with the appropriate mix for your depth. With the SCR you feed it with the same mix that you would breath open circuit. In the event of a failure in the rebreather,a flick of the switch on the mouthpiece and you're breathing your back gas OC.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I'm not a rebreather diver so everything is just hear say and my 2 pennies.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>

woody
07-17-2007, 00:31
CompuDude-Iíve never seen a "DIR" approved certification process or equipment. Even according to GUE, DIR has grown beyond the realm of GUE. Many others have picked up the reigns and carried the torch forward. DIR is a diving philosophy and not merely a gear configuration scheme. I do believe that DIR has made a substantial impact on the sport and look for continued improvements to the sport diving community.
<DIV>WaterRat, you are exactly right! Oneomission is the design of the unit. If the RB80 stops working, you will know it b/c it stops breathing, telling you to switch over to a bailout.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV>Woody</DIV>

WaterRat
07-18-2007, 17:35
Yeah, I think they referred to that as an "Intuitive Alarm". Real fancy word for this dang thing is busted and I need air.

medictom
08-08-2007, 21:42
Don't know if I'm a tekkie or not,but I am a PSD, and use a CCR(Megalodon)when I have a really long bottom time with no deco obs,and as for the DIR please don't get me started!I was diving in FL on my meg and one of them who was diving OC told me I was DIW (doin it wrong) I'm the one with the cert. on it and 258 hrs.!! GO FIGURE!!!