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snagel
04-04-2009, 07:54
Recently, my assistant at work's mother passed away and now she is doing some "spring cleaning". She has a small oxygen tank (not sure of size but it is about 2' long) and asked me how she could get rid of it. Being a diver, I thought hey I could use this so she said I could have it.

So one thing led to another and we (we are the safety department for a manufacturing company) ironically have been told by our company physician that it might be a good idea for us to have oxygen on site for emergencies. So, we are setting up training for this and the company is purchasing new tanks and all accessories.

Back to my "new" tank. I'm wanting to use this for scuba and I'm sure I will learn all this in the training we will be taking. The tank has a regulator that maxes out at 8 L/min. I'm thinking for diving you want something like 15 L/min.

Just curious if I'm thinking correctly and should I keep my eye out for another regulator?

Any thoughts.

S. Nagel

rustyshakelford
04-04-2009, 08:47
nasal canulas are around 2-4 lpm
non-rebreathers are 10-15lpm, sometimes i turn it down a little bit if its just wasting o2
bag valve mask 15-25 lpm

those are about the percentages i use when i have to administer o2

brett

in_cavediver
04-04-2009, 17:20
First, to use this for diving, you need a diving reg and unfortuneately, as of now, nobody has one for the med o2 valve. The reg you are looking at is most likely a constant flow rather than demand reg. This means it simply dumps a metered amount of o2 out at a fixed rate through an orrifice. That reg is not suitable for diving.

For a good reason, remember in diving, we operate at different ambient pressures. We may use 0.5cft/min at the surface (good sac) but that turns into 1.0cft/min at 33ft, 1.5cft/min at 66ft and 2.0cft/min at 99ft. Our reg adjust for this automatically since they are demand based systems.

Now, for the tank itself. It uses different threads so you can't simply thread on a scuba valve and be done. It is technically possible to convert this to scuba but frankly speaking, its not worth the time/effort required.

snagel
04-05-2009, 08:47
Thanks Cavediver for the information,

Hey, it was worth a shot.

S. Nagel

clararhb
04-05-2009, 11:41
BTW, if you don't want it call a local medical supply company. I'm sure that the woman was charged for it some time or another. My dad just lost his room mate and I was thinking of snagging one for land use but Dad nipped that one in the bud. Personally I don't think the deceased would have mined. :)

mitsuguy
04-05-2009, 15:01
First, to use this for diving, you need a diving reg and unfortuneately, as of now, nobody has one for the med o2 valve. The reg you are looking at is most likely a constant flow rather than demand reg. This means it simply dumps a metered amount of o2 out at a fixed rate through an orrifice. That reg is not suitable for diving.

For a good reason, remember in diving, we operate at different ambient pressures. We may use 0.5cft/min at the surface (good sac) but that turns into 1.0cft/min at 33ft, 1.5cft/min at 66ft and 2.0cft/min at 99ft. Our reg adjust for this automatically since they are demand based systems.

Now, for the tank itself. It uses different threads so you can't simply thread on a scuba valve and be done. It is technically possible to convert this to scuba but frankly speaking, its not worth the time/effort required.

I don't think he was wanting it to dive with, but instead as a emergency o2 source...

I highly recommend an O2 provider class, both PADI and DAN offer them now, this will give you the info you need to safely use it...

as mentioned above, you will need an o2 regulator that is capable of minimum 15 lpm if using a bag mask, and some will over breathe 15 lpm and require as much as 25 lpm, though 15 would be better than nothing... also, if keeping a kit, a non-rebreather, demand valve mask would be a good addition to your kit...

mitsuguy
04-05-2009, 15:15
here's some pricing and availability on certain things: https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/eseries/source/orders/index.cfm?task=1&CATEGORY=O2COMP&DESCRIPTION=Oxygen%20Kit%20Accessories&CFTOKEN=5679484&continue=1&SEARCH_TYPE=find

a regulator that will deliver up to 25 lpm and work with a demand valve system: https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/catalog/products/611-2000.html

a demand valve unit for a breathing injured diver (just add a pocket mask) https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/catalog/products/611-3000.html

pocket mask for use with demand valve or continuous flow (with continuous flow, allows for standard rescue breaths, with a manually triggered valve, can provide 100% o2 rescue breaths)
https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/catalog/products/611-8300.html

manually triggered demand valve - works as a standard demand valve, or, push the button for a forceful rescue breath: https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/eseries/source/orders/index.cfm?task=3&CATEGORY=O2COMP&PRODUCT_TYPE=SALES&SKU=611-3100&DESCRIPTION=Oxygen%20Kit%20Accessories&FindSpec=&CFTOKEN=5679484&continue=1&SEARCH_TYPE=find

and last one, bag mask, non rebreather, for breathing, injured diver that is too weak to open the valve on a demand valve system: https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/eseries/source/orders/index.cfm?task=3&CATEGORY=O2COMP&PRODUCT_TYPE=SALES&SKU=611%2D8100&DESCRIPTION=Oxygen%20Kit%20Accessories&FindSpec=&CFTOKEN=5679484&continue=1&SEARCH_TYPE=find

Once you are trained properly in their use, these tools could one day become the difference between life and death, or no injury and serious injury, if ever present during a diving accident. Here in Utila, every boat we go out on leaves with 45 minutes (worst case) of emergency o2, which is enough time to get from pretty much any dive site to the local recompression chamber...

in_cavediver
04-05-2009, 17:24
Dan has some nice stuff but they are at times quite over priced.

For a basic O2 kit:

Need tank - depending on the state, I recommend looking used. I have two, an E and a D and I spent less than $50 each to get them back in service and filled.

Regulator - My opinion is for most users, the simple continous flow reg is the way to go. Its simple and easy to implement. Demand regs are nice and a good way to get 100% o2 but so is a deco bottle. I have $20 in my o2 reg. (15lpm max). (got a refurbished unit from Indiana Oxygen - has a scratch in the anodizing)

Masks - get a good non-rebreather. They are cheap. I gave a couple bucks for the first one I bought. (I am a first responder so as they get used, I grab a replacement from the ambulance crew)

Pocket mask - I picked up a CPR Saver mask for $5.

They you go - full emergency o2 kit for $75 or less if you shop well.

As for the forced ventilation mask and BVM - unless trained in thier use - stay away from them.

mitsuguy
04-05-2009, 17:27
oh, yah, as you stated, there are way cheaper ways to get almost everything, I was just posting a link with some relative prices with a good assortment of the types of things you would want to have... kinda like going to Bestbuy.com for info, then searching ebay for the same but cheaper... :)

That being said, I know they are costly, but the complete DAN kits are quite nice...

clararhb
04-05-2009, 21:40
Ok since this spun into surface use. How difficult would it be for a non professional to get an O2 tank refilled?

in_cavediver
04-06-2009, 04:56
Ok since this spun into surface use. How difficult would it be for a non professional to get an O2 tank refilled?

That depends on the state. In some states, Med O2 is a prescription drug. In others, its just a compressed gas. I personally have never had a problem. Before I was a 'professional', I simply told the gas supplier what it was for and they had zero issues with it. Of course, you may need you doc to write a prescription (shouldn't be a big deal).

snagel
04-06-2009, 06:05
Ooops....I should have said, yes, this is for surface. In my state, you need a prescription to get it filled. I'm working with our corporate doctor (who also is a diver) and once I go through the class and we have a talk, he is willing to provide the prescription for scuba use.

S. Nagel

aperkins
04-06-2009, 07:14
You can also get medical grade O2 through a dive shop that does PP Nitrox fills.

clararhb
04-06-2009, 10:38
Thanks for the info guys. An LDS that does nitrox would be great aperkins.

No Misses
04-07-2009, 09:44
I am lucky enough to have a LDS that fills emergency O2 bottles for free! Yes you heard me right. Free.

FREE Oxygen Fills!

http://fillexpress.com/images/danrescuepak.jpgFill Express supports the South Florida diving community by donating FREE Oxygen fills for the M9 and Jumbo-D Oxygen cylinders included in the DAN Rescue Paks. Restricted to certified DAN Oxygen Providers with a current DAN membership. Other restrictions may apply.http://fillexpress.com/images/dan.gif (http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/)We also offer rentals of the DAN Rescue Pak Extended Care #601-1000.

Grin
04-08-2009, 09:02
My dive shop fills my Oxygen prepped AL80 with 100% O2 for the price of a Nitrox fill ($7).

aperkins
04-08-2009, 09:16
BTW, if you want to transfill O2 from your LDS tank to a medical type cylinder the adapters are available on Northeast Scuba Supply for pretty cheap. $30 dollars and quick disconnect fittings for a trans fill whip and you can do without the prescription. :)

mitsuguy
04-08-2009, 11:45
My dive shop fills my Oxygen prepped AL80 with 100% O2 for the price of a Nitrox fill ($7).


you gotta be kidding me... thats relatively cheap for even a nitrox fill... but pure 02... must be nice... do they have a booster, or what pressure do they fill to?

edit: do they make their own o2 or do they have it brought in in cylinders?

clararhb
04-09-2009, 19:31
My dive shop fills my Oxygen prepped AL80 with 100% O2 for the price of a Nitrox fill ($7).

Dang that is cheap. I'm not sure what an O2 fill would cost at a LDS but I know the cost for a medical bottle of O2 is more than $7.

rustyshakelford
04-09-2009, 20:06
You can also get medical grade O2 through a dive shop that does PP Nitrox fills.

are you sure it isnt "aviation grade" oxygen. as stated earlier, medical grade oxygen is more times than not prescription only. Theres not really a differance other than the chain of custody with the tanks. aviation is the most common in the scuba industry

brett

in_cavediver
04-10-2009, 05:04
You can also get medical grade O2 through a dive shop that does PP Nitrox fills.

are you sure it isnt "aviation grade" oxygen. as stated earlier, medical grade oxygen is more times than not prescription only. Theres not really a differance other than the chain of custody with the tanks. aviation is the most common in the scuba industry

brett

The funny thing is Aviation grade is higher grade O2 than Med O2. (By standards, so is welding o2 actually). It has a higher required purity and a lower specific moisture content. Realistically, there isn't likely a difference other than the accountability in some areas so I would use it if I couldn't get med o2.

clararhb
04-10-2009, 18:36
Why would there be a difference between medical and aviation? I can see welding being different.

mitsuguy
04-10-2009, 18:45
Why would there be a difference between medical and aviation? I can see welding being different.

Actually, the O2 is the same all three ways, but welding O2 cylinders are not cleaned every time, whereas the others are cleaned every single time they are filled...

The only difference between USP (medical) and aviator grade is that aviator grade is drier to prevent freeze up potential at high altitudes...

in_cavediver
04-10-2009, 19:52
Why would there be a difference between medical and aviation? I can see welding being different.

Actually, the O2 is the same all three ways, but welding O2 cylinders are not cleaned every time, whereas the others are cleaned every single time they are filled...

The only difference between USP (medical) and aviator grade is that aviator grade is drier to prevent freeze up potential at high altitudes...

You bring up an interesting point about cleanliness. Its common knowledge Welding gas 'doesn't get cleaned' but in reality, the process of dealing with HP o2 has the same risks and requires the same procedures so cleanliness is an issue. From the people I have talked in the compressed gas industry, here is how they segregate the o2 tanks they fill.

1) Med tanks get content tested/labeled
2) Aviators gets moisture content tested/labeled
3) Welding o2 just gets labeled.

They use the exact same filling process for all tanks. (and according to them, thier gas meets/exceeds all the standards for all three grades irregardless of what you buy, hence they charge $1 more for aviators/med over welding due to the batch testing that is done)

Still, in a liability concsious society, using O2 designed for human consumption is a good idea.

fisheater
04-10-2009, 19:57
Good information about the O2 grades. Thanks.

clararhb
04-12-2009, 17:25
Thanks for the info guys. I would never had thought about the moisture in the aviation O2.