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Cougar Diver
04-20-2009, 10:21
So..... There I am trying to get my deep dive out of the way. Working on my advance open water. Down we go, my buddy and my dive instructor. All of the sudden it hits me....I have become Dori in Finding Nemo. I am swimming around singing to my self. I look up to tell my instructor I need a nap and he has turned into a big black blob. Here is what sucks. I only made it to 72 feet. I am the biggest loser in the world or has anyone else had a problem?

reactive
04-20-2009, 10:43
LOL!!

fisheater
04-20-2009, 11:06
You must be fun at parties. :-)

wgt
04-20-2009, 11:07
First and most importantly, you are not the biggest loser or even a loser of any magnitude based on an apparently heightened susceptibility to nitrogen narcosis. There is a broad range of vulnerabilities in the diving population. We all have to fall somewhere within that range.

It is also important to note that one can adjust to narcosis, both in the immediate term (in other words, just give it a few minutes) and on the longer term (repeated exposures to pressure can lessen the experience). Given these facts, I would advise that you continue to explore the depths while under the watchful eye of an accomplished, experienced, and conscientious instructor or appropriate surrogate.

It is also wise to bear in mind that nitrogen interacts with many physiological factors. It is therefore possible that, on that fateful day, you were unusually vulnerable. Perhaps, it is worthwhile noting whether you were anxious, taking medications, etc.

Of the likely outcomes, the worst that I can foresee is that you may need to stay shallower than you otherwise might. From my perspective, this is really no tragedy, however. For example, virtually all of my truly momentous diving experiences have occurred in depths of less than 18 m.


So..... There I am trying to get my deep dive out of the way. Working on my advance open water. Down we go, my buddy and my dive instructor. All of the sudden it hits me....I have become Dori in Finding Nemo. I am swimming around singing to my self. I look up to tell my instructor I need a nap and he has turned into a big black blob. Here is what sucks. I only made it to 72 feet. I am the biggest loser in the world or has anyone else had a problem?

navyhmc
04-20-2009, 11:38
No, not a loser by any means-as wgt said. The fact is a lot of new divers get narc'd at shallower depths. Not to sound sexist, but shallow depth narcosis seems to hit women more than me, but guys can take a shallow hit too. A lot of things go into narcosis. Stress, and hydration included. The important thing is you noted it. And it is true, the more dives you make, the less it hits you. I am more inclined to get narc'd worse early in the year than later. mutliple dives seems to lessen the intensity.

Keep at it and have fun.

And never forget: You are a diver! No loser there, you are in a distinguished group of winners! We capture the depths.

Cougar Diver
04-20-2009, 11:56
I am fun after 2 beers. :fulle: I kinda figured that because I am a lightweight at drinking maybe that is why it hit me so fast. Also, when we get monsoons here in AZ I get migrains. I thought that being sensitive to the environment might be a factor too.:smiley11:

fire diver
04-20-2009, 12:09
repeated exposers will allow you to lessen the effects of narcosis. they say everyone is narced to some degree below 50 feet, and most just don't notice it. The speed of decent plays a part in how you notice the effects.

Basically, don't worry about it. Keep diving and you'll be fine!

UCFKnightDiver
04-20-2009, 12:50
hmmm I would also look at possibly contaminated gas, or a bit of vertigo

jj1987
04-20-2009, 13:08
repeated exposers will allow you to lessen the effects of narcosis.
This is NOT true, and scary that people think that it is. Same logic that convinces alcoholics they can drive home with a high BAL because they've gotten used to being drunk :smilie40:

Subjective and behavioral effects associated with ...[Aviat Space Environ Med. 1992] - PubMed Result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1417647)

Within the diving community it is generally thought that this effect can be reduced by repeating deep air dives on successive days but laboratory studies have found no strong evidence to support the notion of adaptation to narcosis****bicon Research Repository: Item 123456789/2522 (http://archive****bicon-foundation.org/2522)

We investigated the effect of brief, repetitive exposures to 5.5 ATA (148 fsw) in a hyperbaric chamber on adaptation to nitrogen narcosis. A standing-steadiness task, which measures body sway, was administered to 2 groups of 3 chamber-qualified men at 5.5 ATA and 1.3 ATA [10 fsw (control)] on each of 12 successive days to determine if an initial performance decrement at 5.5 ATA would be ameliorated with time. Standing steadiness was significantly worse at 5.5 ATA than at 1.3 ATA across all 12 exposures. There were also changes in standing steadiness from day to day, but these changes occurred in both the test and control depths. There was no day-x-depth interaction that would have indicated that the initial performance decrement at 5.5 ATA was reduced with repetitive exposures.

fire diver
04-20-2009, 13:11
Doesn't really sounds like vertigo to me. I've been through that on a dive, and there was nothing euphoric or halucinatory about it.

If it was bad gas, the instructor might have noticed something also. This is why it's good to talk about experiences and problems after the dive.

UCFKnightDiver
04-20-2009, 13:14
Doesn't really sounds like vertigo to me. I've been through that on a dive, and there was nothing euphoric or halucinatory about it.

If it was bad gas, the instructor might have noticed something also. This is why it's good to talk about experiences and problems after the dive.

I dont believe she said whether she and the instructor were breathing gas from the same place or not, and I wouldnt rule it out totally even if they were. As to vertigo theres no reason she couldnt have had a different expirience with mild vertigo than you, but I must agree it doesnt seem likely that it was vertigo, I have had mild vertigo too and its not all that muich fun.

fire diver
04-20-2009, 13:15
repeated exposers will allow you to lessen the effects of narcosis.
This is NOT true, and scary that people think that it is. Same logic that convinces alcoholics they can drive home with a high BAL because they've gotten used to being drunk :smilie40:

Subjective and behavioral effects associated with ...[Aviat Space Environ Med. 1992] - PubMed Result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1417647)

Within the diving community it is generally thought that this effect can be reduced by repeating deep air dives on successive days but laboratory studies have found no strong evidence to support the notion of adaptation to narcosis****bicon Research Repository: Item 123456789/2522 (http://archive****bicon-foundation.org/2522)

We investigated the effect of brief, repetitive exposures to 5.5 ATA (148 fsw) in a hyperbaric chamber on adaptation to nitrogen narcosis. A standing-steadiness task, which measures body sway, was administered to 2 groups of 3 chamber-qualified men at 5.5 ATA and 1.3 ATA [10 fsw (control)] on each of 12 successive days to determine if an initial performance decrement at 5.5 ATA would be ameliorated with time. Standing steadiness was significantly worse at 5.5 ATA than at 1.3 ATA across all 12 exposures. There were also changes in standing steadiness from day to day, but these changes occurred in both the test and control depths. There was no day-x-depth interaction that would have indicated that the initial performance decrement at 5.5 ATA was reduced with repetitive exposures.

I understand what you are saying. I'm not talking about repeating diving to 200 on air. We are talking about feeling completely narced at 75.

Are you arguing that with continued diving and becoming more comfortable in the water that the OP WILL NOT see less effect of narcosis at a depth of 75 feet?

gee
04-20-2009, 13:19
Ha! The way you describe the situation was very funny! Did you get a chance to discuss this with your instructor? What is your next step?
So..... There I am trying to get my deep dive out of the way. Working on my advance open water. Down we go, my buddy and my dive instructor. All of the sudden it hits me....I have become Dori in Finding Nemo. I am swimming around singing to my self. I look up to tell my instructor I need a nap and he has turned into a big black blob. Here is what sucks. I only made it to 72 feet. I am the biggest loser in the world or has anyone else had a problem?

jj1987
04-20-2009, 13:22
repeated exposers will allow you to lessen the effects of narcosis.
This is NOT true, and scary that people think that it is. Same logic that convinces alcoholics they can drive home with a high BAL because they've gotten used to being drunk :smilie40:

Subjective and behavioral effects associated with ...[Aviat Space Environ Med. 1992] - PubMed Result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1417647)

Within the diving community it is generally thought that this effect can be reduced by repeating deep air dives on successive days but laboratory studies have found no strong evidence to support the notion of adaptation to narcosis****bicon Research Repository: Item 123456789/2522 (http://archive****bicon-foundation.org/2522)

We investigated the effect of brief, repetitive exposures to 5.5 ATA (148 fsw) in a hyperbaric chamber on adaptation to nitrogen narcosis. A standing-steadiness task, which measures body sway, was administered to 2 groups of 3 chamber-qualified men at 5.5 ATA and 1.3 ATA [10 fsw (control)] on each of 12 successive days to determine if an initial performance decrement at 5.5 ATA would be ameliorated with time. Standing steadiness was significantly worse at 5.5 ATA than at 1.3 ATA across all 12 exposures. There were also changes in standing steadiness from day to day, but these changes occurred in both the test and control depths. There was no day-x-depth interaction that would have indicated that the initial performance decrement at 5.5 ATA was reduced with repetitive exposures.

I understand what you are saying. I'm not talking about repeating diving to 200 on air. We are talking about feeling completely narced at 75.

Are you arguing that with continued diving and becoming more comfortable in the water that the OP WILL NOT see less effect of narcosis at a depth of 75 feet?
I'm arguing that scientific research and study from respected sources supports that repeated exposure to narcosis will not eliminate or reduce the effects.

I'm not convinced that the OP was dealing with narcosis and not co2, bad gas, panic attack, etc.
Rubicon Research Repository: Item 123456789/3728 (http://archive****bicon-foundation.org/3728)


The six principal causes of narcotic blackout include:
1) Carbon monoxide poisoning,
2) Carbon dioxide toxicity,
3) Oxygen toxicity,
4) Nitrogen narcosis,
5) Drug effects including alcohol
6) Hypothermia


I look up to tell my instructor I need a nap and he has turned into a big black blob.

Cougar Diver
04-20-2009, 14:15
Ok. Here is more info. My buddy and I were on the same mix from the same dive shop. He did not have any problems. I dont think I had veritgo. We were following the lake floor. It was a very slow, very even descent. One moment I was fine the next I was swimming sideways singing to myself. When I was underwater I signaled to my buddy I had a problem. When my instructor got to me his head was like a big balloon. He took me back up to a safe depth and waited till my head was clear and I could purge my reg. (note: dont eat granola before diving). I felt fine before/after my dive. We did a surface interval and did our search and recovery with no other problems. I just felt like a big baby for not being able to go very far down. My dive buddy said I had premature-enarkulation:smiley9:

MSilvia
04-20-2009, 14:22
I'm arguing that scientific research and study from respected sources supports that repeated exposure to narcosis will not eliminate or reduce the effects.
Nevertheless James, I suspect that you would concede that comfort level in the water can have an exacerbating or mitigating effect on a diver's perception of narcosis intensity. Along those same lines, I would expect it to follow that, to some extent, a first time deep diver might well expect to experience narcosis less intensely as they gain experience with dives to a similar depth.

That is not the same as saying that an experienced diver will experience less intense narcosis with repeated exposure to narcosis, and it is beyond the scope of the research you cited.

navyhmc
04-20-2009, 14:31
repeated exposers will allow you to lessen the effects of narcosis.
This is NOT true, and scary that people think that it is. Same logic that convinces alcoholics they can drive home with a high BAL because they've gotten used to being drunk :smilie40:

Subjective and behavioral effects associated with ...[Aviat Space Environ Med. 1992] - PubMed Result (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1417647)

Within the diving community it is generally thought that this effect can be reduced by repeating deep air dives on successive days but laboratory studies have found no strong evidence to support the notion of adaptation to narcosis****bicon Research Repository: Item 123456789/2522 (http://archive****bicon-foundation.org/2522)

We investigated the effect of brief, repetitive exposures to 5.5 ATA (148 fsw) in a hyperbaric chamber on adaptation to nitrogen narcosis. A standing-steadiness task, which measures body sway, was administered to 2 groups of 3 chamber-qualified men at 5.5 ATA and 1.3 ATA [10 fsw (control)] on each of 12 successive days to determine if an initial performance decrement at 5.5 ATA would be ameliorated with time. Standing steadiness was significantly worse at 5.5 ATA than at 1.3 ATA across all 12 exposures. There were also changes in standing steadiness from day to day, but these changes occurred in both the test and control depths. There was no day-x-depth interaction that would have indicated that the initial performance decrement at 5.5 ATA was reduced with repetitive exposures.


While my own personal experiences may be totally anecdotal, I have found that the theory that repeated deeper dives lessens the effect of narcosis is valid to me. My statement concerning the adaptive change in getting Narc'd is directly from the PADI Deep Diver Course book as well. Not discounting the study you quote, but I can only go on my experiences and trainng. But though narcosis and alcohol have similar effects, the physiologic causes are definitely different.

bennerman
04-20-2009, 15:11
Ha ha... that was a good movie...

http://www.roumazeilles.net/images/found_nemo_2.jpg

Cougar Diver
04-20-2009, 15:22
"swimming swimming gotta keep swimming":biggrinbounce2:

paperdesk
04-20-2009, 15:25
I don't have any words of wisdom here, but am interested to see how this plays out. please do post back next time you deep dive and let us know how things go. It can be a learning experience for us all. Good luck!

scubadiver888
04-20-2009, 16:50
As I read this thread I questioned whether the statement "the more dives you make, the less it hits you." was entirely accurate.

I also, compared it to alcohol consumption. I've met people who seem fairly coherent after a LOT of alcohol consumption. People who knew them said they had grown a tolerance to alcohol. I later learned that they seemed to be coherent but if you tested what mattered (cognitive ability and physical reflects) they were still impaired.

If I watched them at a party, I'd swear they were sober but that is because it is hard to measure with your eyes whether someone's motor reflects have deteriorated.

My gut tells me that as you get exposed to nitrogen narcosis, you FEEL like you are handling it better. This could be helpful however. For me, I get paranoid when narc'd. Now that I recognize that as being narc'd I can step outside of the narcosis and not let the paranoia get to me.

I do notice however that time still seems to slow down. I look at my gauge, I have 1900, 1870, 1830, 1800, 1600, CRAP. In what seemed like the blink of an eye my gauge lost 200 PSI. I could have sworn I blinked but the reality was that I closed my eyes and/or my brain shut off for a good 5+ seconds.

Now, my gut feeling is just as anecdotal as people who claim repeated exposure to nitrogen narcosis does improve how it affects you.

My personal belief is that the effects of nitrogen narcosis can become noticeable below 60' and whenever I go below 60' I need to put forth a conscience effort to detect the narcosis. Once detected reduce my task load, focus on the things which will keep me alive, i.e. don't panic, watch my air consumption, don't lose my buddy, etc. What the plaque on the shipwreck says isn't that important if I know I'm narc'd.

I believe repeated exposure to nitrogen narcosis helps me to recognize it and to deal with it.

jj1987
04-20-2009, 17:02
While my own personal experiences may be totally anecdotal, I have found that the theory that repeated deeper dives lessens the effect of narcosis is valid to me. My statement concerning the adaptive change in getting Narc'd is directly from the PADI Deep Diver Course book as well. Not discounting the study you quote, but I can only go on my experiences and trainng. But though narcosis and alcohol have similar effects, the physiologic causes are definitely different.
Well, I certainly don't have a deep diver specialty card, I'll be up front about that :smiley13:

A buddy of mine recently took basic cave and we were diving Ginnie this weekend. We've discussed several times how he didn't think narcosis was an issue around 100ft deep. After the dive this weekend he told me that he had trouble determining what was clay and what was a rock. They look similar, but it's certainly an example of someone who didn't think they would be narc'ed, yet showed signs.

During my full cave, I stared at a clay bank and just stopped the dive to look at it. I remember the act, but I didn't realize that I actually spent some time looking at it, and stopped the whole dive. Light signals were good, buoyancy didn't change, but when something "different" was thrown into the mix (ie when my instructor moved my cookie on the line), decision making was slower. Basically any act that I had done several times before went well, but the "surprises" created minor issues. This was only in the 95-100ft depth range. My instructor suggested that mixes such as 30/30 are reasonably priced, and are options worth looking into if you're going to be spending extended periods of time at depth, especially if there's going to be a series of navigational decisions or new sections of cave.

I never felt narc'ed until people pointed out the signs of it, and now I've become more aware and consider myself lucky that nothing went wrong on previous dives.

I see it the same as this....the more someone drinks, the harder it is to tell when they're intoxicated. I have friends who drink a lot and I can't tell after they've had a 6 pack by their talking.......but would I trust them to handle an emergency? NO.

Roughwater
04-20-2009, 17:25
Perhaps, it is worthwhile noting whether you were anxious, taking medications, etc.


Hey - if you were taking medication, let us know what it was! :smiley2:

In all seriousness though - I have found that my personal experience mimics that of navydiver - that as I have continued with my diving, my tolerance to narcosis has increased.

Those that I dive with have experienced the same. We're diving anywhere between 40-55m on air in 12 degree c / 54 degree f water in pitch black conditions where our only light source is our own lights.

We've experienced narcosis that we struggled with at nearly half that depth when we first started out, but now as we've progressed with many dives we no longer have a problem with it at nearly double the depth. (I'm not saying that we're not experiencing narcosis - but that it is now manageable.)

Whether this is because I have become more familiar with the environment, and the tasks at hand are now more natural (therefore less stress), or whether the body can become more tolerant of narcosis - I don't really know.

It's my personal belief (from what I have experienced) that if you decided to continue and go back to that depth a few times (under the watchful eye of an experienced instructor) I recon you'll find that you're able to handle that depth, and move beyond without seeing your instructor as a blob anymore, and being in full control.

There are a number of other factors that can also contribute to Narcosis. Just wondering if you could answer:

a) What was the water temperature?

b) How fast did you descend?

c) What was the vis like?

d) What was the lighting like? (ie, dark / light / etc)

Cheers

Roughwater.

Cougar Diver
04-20-2009, 21:23
Sorry to all no meds to induce this.

To answer your questions
1)water temp was 51
2)descent was slow we did not pass our dive instructor. (who by the way is a great guy)
3)vis was about 20 ft
4)lighting was fine. we were not using any lights

I am hoping that it was a freak thing. I didnt watch how far down we were going because I didnt want to think about depth. So when things started happening I had to ask my dive buddy what the depth was. I was talking to a friend who said she has the same feeling when she goes to the dentist.

UCFKnightDiver
04-20-2009, 21:46
were you breathing hard at all, or were you nervous?

wgt
04-20-2009, 21:47
Did you notice whether your heart was racing?


Sorry to all no meds to induce this.

To answer your questions
1)water temp was 51
2)descent was slow we did not pass our dive instructor. (who by the way is a great guy)
3)vis was about 20 ft
4)lighting was fine. we were not using any lights

I am hoping that it was a freak thing. I didnt watch how far down we were going because I didnt want to think about depth. So when things started happening I had to ask my dive buddy what the depth was. I was talking to a friend who said she has the same feeling when she goes to the dentist.

Roughwater
04-20-2009, 22:14
51 degrees is cool enough water to add a contributing factor to the effects of Narcosis.

(Other effects that contribute can be stress, fatigue and hard work.)

So - if you were also anxious, working hard, etc - these would effectively worsen the effects of Narcosis too - putting you in the situation for an 'interesting ride'. :smiley2:

As mentioned prior, I believe if you decided to continue and go back to that depth a few times, you'll find that you're able to handle that depth, and move beyond it with the effects lessening.

Like all things with diving, take it one step at a time, until you're confident where you're at before moving any further.

drako
04-21-2009, 08:09
I will have to agree that repeated exposure allows you to better COPE with narcosis. When I was in Utila I had a very long conversation about getting Narc'd with the DM's. We all agreed that its still there however they dont "feel" it. I usually get Narc'd around 100 feet. Sometimes I deal fine, sometimes I get paranoid VERY easily. (crap I only have 2,000psi! Has my regs been checked? Is my buddy paying attention to me? etc) making the dive...no fun.

mitsuguy
04-21-2009, 08:49
my own personal experience is that in colder (60 degree water), darker (less than 5' visibility) is that the perceptual narrowing of narcosis is definitely exacerbated, making it more of a feeling, and that was at 100-110'

since diving in clear blue water, I have done multiple deep dives, and registered 40m on my computer a number of times, though not for long as obviously you only get a few minutes down there... On a recent deep dive adventure dive, we were at 30m, 100 feet, where previously in colder darker water, I felt more narc'd, but here, I was able to do math problems and had no issue with cognitive thinking (but one of the students was definitely narc'd - we took an egg with us to show effects of pressure and how it holds the egg together - he thought it was just hilarious)

maybe just task loading and other factors increase susceptibility, who knows...

Cougar Diver
04-21-2009, 09:27
I dont think I was breathing hard until the DM made me stop moving. That is when I notice I was breathing hard. But I also had to purge my reg. (there was a floatie) I was trying to breath around it. I dont remember my heart racing. I was going over my dive computer last night and the printout said it took 10 min to go 70 ft. Is that too fast? It felt like we were barely moving compaired to how I usually swim.

UCFKnightDiver
04-21-2009, 09:51
could have been some co2 retention from your increased breathing rate CO2 is around 20 times more narcotic than nitrogen at depth

wgt
04-21-2009, 09:54
7 feet per minute is a very slow descent rate -- not likely to have contributed.

I suspect that we have all flogged this case -- now experience may reveal the real story. Please keep us advised.


I dont think I was breathing hard until the DM made me stop moving. That is when I notice I was breathing hard. But I also had to purge my reg. (there was a floatie) I was trying to breath around it. I dont remember my heart racing. I was going over my dive computer last night and the printout said it took 10 min to go 70 ft. Is that too fast? It felt like we were barely moving compaired to how I usually swim.

The Great Kazoo
04-22-2009, 09:59
I LOVE to get Narced. I do look forward to it. As long as you are in control of yourself it is ok.

Beefcake
04-22-2009, 12:44
I LOVE to get Narced. I do look forward to it. As long as you are in control of yourself it is ok.
Sounds like a Ramones song:

"Twenty- Twenty- Twenty-four hours to go, I wanna' be Narc'd
Nothin' to do; nowhere to go... I wanna' be Narc'd"