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navyhmc
04-20-2009, 11:42
I met up with DW at Oronogo yesterday and put the doubles to the test. I couldn't beleive that I'm still feet heavy. Not needing any lead was a definite bounus too!

Everything went well until I blew out the zipper on my wet suit. Tried to make a dive after that but had to turn it near the end as I was starting to get juust a little cold. I hated to sign DW that I was cold, but the shivers were starting. Note to self: Hooded vet is nice, but doesn't take place of back zipper on WS. :smilie39:

Only two dives, but it was still a lot of fun.

But carrying those beasts up the hill was a major suck!

3rdEye
04-20-2009, 11:50
so your feet still sank with the doubles?

what kind of doubles? Steel?

What does your weight setup and exposure protection look like? I'm curious, because I am, wondering if I am ever going to not have sinky feet.

fire diver
04-20-2009, 12:11
Congrats on the doubles dive. I see a future wreck/cave diver in the making!

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
04-20-2009, 12:19
Are those double 120s Navy? They are the only doubles I have ever heard of with sinky feet issues. I sort of like that in my drysuit as it counteracts the floaty feet I can get from that. That said I've been able to adjust the position of my tanks and my wing to trim out perfectly. I love everything about them except the walk out and getting them filled. But I think you'll get used to them. Walking them out with a stage and full tech rig from 40 famthom grotto (many, many steps up a steep hill) was easier than walking them out of a quarry up a shallow grade the first time I wore them.

navyhmc
04-20-2009, 12:33
so your feet still sank with the doubles?

what kind of doubles? Steel?

What does your weight setup and exposure protection look like? I'm curious, because I am, wondering if I am ever going to not have sinky feet.

The rig is Worthington 119s, stainless steel BP w/OMS 95# double bladder bungeed wing (it's already been suggested to take off the bungees.) a Diver Rite Transplate harness. I also wore an Akona 6.5mm one pice with a Aqualung 5mm hooded vest. XL Scubapro jet fins too.

My first dive, I wore 10lbs of lead and sank like a rock-I know: Imagine that! :smiley36:. No lead for the second. With a small kick, I doulc keep trimmed, but if I hung, feet first I went. My first plan is to take off the bungees and see what that does.

Since I'm 5'7" that may be a contributor as well.

navyhmc
04-20-2009, 12:35
Congrats on the doubles dive. I see a future wreck/cave diver in the making!

Wreck, maybe...cave probably not-too clausrophobic. :smiley36:

fire diver
04-20-2009, 13:07
Navy, what position did you have your legs in? Were they straight out or bend 90 degrees a-la frogkicking position?

ianr33
04-20-2009, 13:28
Are the bands as high as they can possibly go? If so changing fins to OMS Slipstreams would help.They are much less negative than jets.

Edit: The normal problem with doubles is being head heavy.Moving the bands UP the tank will help with that.

UCFKnightDiver
04-20-2009, 13:34
not sure about the oms wings but some have multiple grommets to allow you to move the wing, I would suggest you get at least a couple more dives in before you change things too drastically though. It took me at least a few dives to get really dialed in, also If the problem persists you could also move the tank bands down a little bit which would end up jacking the tank up a little more thus giving you more weight near your head. But again give it a few dives at least just to see how things work out.

Dark Wolf
04-20-2009, 13:36
Navy, was good to dive with you yesterday. I am feeling pretty comfy in my new rig. Did one solo dive after you left. Was a nice dive back to the CC, with a 28 minute run time. Think I am feeling comfortable enough to start doing something besides the CC. :)

DW

Rileybri
04-20-2009, 13:42
Just out of curiosity (I do not dive dbls yet but am working on it!) diving the dbls in a wet suit and not detachable led, what are you using for a redundant buoyancy device? I ask assuming swimming your rig would be troublesome at best in the case of a wing failure.

UCFKnightDiver
04-20-2009, 13:44
Just out of curiosity (I do not dive dbls yet but am working on it!) diving the dbls in a wet suit and not detachable led, what are you using for a redundant buoyancy device? I ask assuming swimming your rig would be troublesome at best in the case of a wing failure.

I think he said he had a dual bladder wing

Rileybri
04-20-2009, 13:47
Just out of curiosity (I do not dive dbls yet but am working on it!) diving the dbls in a wet suit and not detachable led, what are you using for a redundant buoyancy device? I ask assuming swimming your rig would be troublesome at best in the case of a wing failure.

I think he said he had a dual bladder wing

yes but hoses and fitting break dump valves stick open etc. To be clear I am by no way assuming or suggesting he is doing something wrong. I am trying to learn something about diving dbls hear. so with that said assuming you had a wing failure, where do you get lift from with out a dry suit?

UCFKnightDiver
04-20-2009, 13:57
a dual bladder wing I believe has two different inflator hoses 2 different bladders etc I would assume if he had one reg/wing/inflator/hose fail he would just use the other one/ones

navyhmc
04-20-2009, 14:04
Navy, what position did you have your legs in? Were they straight out or bend 90 degrees a-la frogkicking position?

I try to keep them bent up but end up straightening them out to make a trim kick.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
04-20-2009, 14:05
Dual bladder wings have 2 inflator hoses. Most guys I know who use dual bladder wings do not hook up the backup inflator in order to avoid possible problem of accidental inflation. They will orally inflate the backup bladder if they lose the first bladder. Note that it is possible to puncture both bladders simultaneously. Other types of failures would still leave you with your backup bladder. Also note that a wing with a hole in it can still provide lift depending on the location of the hole. Technical divers (in open water) also carry a lift bag that can provide some buoyancy. It's not ideal, but it can be done.


FTR I prefer using my drysuit for backup buoyancy. I also use a wing with half the lift of that huge OMS 90# wing for better streamlining. To each his own. I don't believe there is one right way to dive.

navyhmc
04-20-2009, 14:18
Are the bands as high as they can possibly go? If so changing fins to OMS Slipstreams would help.They are much less negative than jets.

The bands are not too high. I might give a look at dropping them just a little. I may give my lighter torboflex a try next dive too.


not sure about the oms wings but some have multiple grommets to allow you to move the wing, I would suggest you get at least a couple more dives in before you change things too drastically though. It took me at least a few dives to get really dialed in, also If the problem persists you could also move the tank bands down a little bit which would end up jacking the tank up a little more thus giving you more weight near your head. But again give it a few dives at least just to see how things work out.


The OMS wing has two sets of grommets. I put it on the upper set which brings the wing down a little.




Just out of curiosity (I do not dive dbls yet but am working on it!) diving the dbls in a wet suit and not detachable led, what are you using for a redundant buoyancy device? I ask assuming swimming your rig would be troublesome at best in the case of a wing failure.

I think he said he had a dual bladder wing

yes but hoses and fitting break dump valves stick open etc. To be clear I am by no way assuming or suggesting he is doing something wrong. I am trying to learn something about diving dbls hear. so with that said assuming you had a wing failure, where do you get lift from with out a dry suit?

Yes, I'm using a double bladder system. You are correct that since I do not have any droppable weight I need a back up. A double bladder is just that: There are two indepentent baldders in the wing. The one forward is the normal use one and the inflator and hoses are on your left. The back up bladder has it's hose on the left rear side of the wing. If I get a leak, I end the dive and use the back up bladder and it's hose to ascend. I also have a 50# lift bag as a back-up for my back up.


Dual bladder wings have 2 inflator hoses. Most guys I know who use dual bladder wings do not hook up the backup inflator in order to avoid possible problem of accidental inflation. They will orally inflate the backup bladder if they lose the first bladder. Note that it is possible to puncture both bladders simultaneously. Other types of failures would still leave you with your backup bladder. Also note that a wing with a hole in it can still provide lift depending on the location of the hole. Technical divers (in open water) also carry a lift bag that can provide some buoyancy. It's not ideal, but it can be done.


FTR I prefer using my drysuit for backup buoyancy. I also use a wing with half the lift of that huge OMS 90# wing for better streamlining. To each his own. I don't believe there is one right way to dive.

The reason I have such a big wing is simple: The price was right: less that $150 for an "Almost new" wing. But Bouzouki may be right and I might have too much wing. You are right Joe, this thing is huge! (Maybe I suffer from wing envy?! :smiley36: )

MSilvia
04-20-2009, 14:27
Two tips that will both sound like nit-picks, but which are often all it takes to fix a trim issue:

arch your back.
bend your knees, not your waist.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
04-20-2009, 15:15
Are the bands as high as they can possibly go? If so changing fins to OMS Slipstreams would help.They are much less negative than jets.

The bands are not too high. I might give a look at dropping them just a little. I may give my lighter torboflex a try next dive too.


not sure about the oms wings but some have multiple grommets to allow you to move the wing, I would suggest you get at least a couple more dives in before you change things too drastically though. It took me at least a few dives to get really dialed in, also If the problem persists you could also move the tank bands down a little bit which would end up jacking the tank up a little more thus giving you more weight near your head. But again give it a few dives at least just to see how things work out.


The OMS wing has two sets of grommets. I put it on the upper set which brings the wing down a little.




Just out of curiosity (I do not dive dbls yet but am working on it!) diving the dbls in a wet suit and not detachable led, what are you using for a redundant buoyancy device? I ask assuming swimming your rig would be troublesome at best in the case of a wing failure.

I think he said he had a dual bladder wing

yes but hoses and fitting break dump valves stick open etc. To be clear I am by no way assuming or suggesting he is doing something wrong. I am trying to learn something about diving dbls hear. so with that said assuming you had a wing failure, where do you get lift from with out a dry suit?

Yes, I'm using a double bladder system. You are correct that since I do not have any droppable weight I need a back up. A double bladder is just that: There are two indepentent baldders in the wing. The one forward is the normal use one and the inflator and hoses are on your left. The back up bladder has it's hose on the left rear side of the wing. If I get a leak, I end the dive and use the back up bladder and it's hose to ascend. I also have a 50# lift bag as a back-up for my back up.


Dual bladder wings have 2 inflator hoses. Most guys I know who use dual bladder wings do not hook up the backup inflator in order to avoid possible problem of accidental inflation. They will orally inflate the backup bladder if they lose the first bladder. Note that it is possible to puncture both bladders simultaneously. Other types of failures would still leave you with your backup bladder. Also note that a wing with a hole in it can still provide lift depending on the location of the hole. Technical divers (in open water) also carry a lift bag that can provide some buoyancy. It's not ideal, but it can be done.


FTR I prefer using my drysuit for backup buoyancy. I also use a wing with half the lift of that huge OMS 90# wing for better streamlining. To each his own. I don't believe there is one right way to dive.

The reason I have such a big wing is simple: The price was right: less that $150 for an "Almost new" wing. But Bouzouki may be right and I might have too much wing. You are right Joe, this thing is huge! (Maybe I suffer from wing envy?! :smiley36: )

If I am ever stranded at sea I would rather have your wing than mine. Something comforting about having your own personal life raft :smiley2:

Dark Wolf
04-20-2009, 15:18
Once I got my bands in the right place, arching my back fixed the rest. I still have to remind myself at times, but it is getting more natural. I had the opposite problem, I was extremely head heavy.

DW

3rdEye
04-20-2009, 15:23
Once I got my bands in the right place, arching my back fixed the rest. I still have to remind myself at times, but it is getting more natural. I had the opposite problem, I was extremely head heavy.

DW


weird....

i guess I have really long, un-buoyant legs, which causes my feet to always be sinking. I think half the reason i am so exhausted after 2 dives is the amount of back arching I do to try to stay horizontal. I'd like to try doubles at some point, but for the time being, I'm getting thicker boots, possibly 3mm neoprene socks to wear under them, jacking my tank up as far as possible, and trying to pile as much weight as I can onto my backplate.

I'd like have the ability to be nearly completely relaxed, and not have my trim position change.

MSilvia
04-20-2009, 16:03
for the time being, I'm getting thicker boots, possibly 3mm neoprene socks to wear under them
That's great in shallow water, but what good is that going to do you at depth, when the neoprene loses buoyancy?

Rileybri
04-20-2009, 17:33
Ahhh that makes much more sense to me. I assumed a dual bladder was just a dbl. thickness bladder. But in reality its like having two wings? Like I said I was asking for learning sake not to nit pic so I appreciate the helpful responses. :smiley20:


Dual bladder wings have 2 inflator hoses. Most guys I know who use dual bladder wings do not hook up the backup inflator in order to avoid possible problem of accidental inflation. They will orally inflate the backup bladder if they lose the first bladder. Note that it is possible to puncture both bladders simultaneously. Other types of failures would still leave you with your backup bladder. Also note that a wing with a hole in it can still provide lift depending on the location of the hole. Technical divers (in open water) also carry a lift bag that can provide some buoyancy. It's not ideal, but it can be done.


FTR I prefer using my drysuit for backup buoyancy. I also use a wing with half the lift of that huge OMS 90# wing for better streamlining. To each his own. I don't believe there is one right way to dive.

navyhmc
04-21-2009, 02:01
Not a nitpic there Rilerbri, a good question since you didn't know. No problems from my end.

3rdEye
04-21-2009, 08:13
for the time being, I'm getting thicker boots, possibly 3mm neoprene socks to wear under them
That's great in shallow water, but what good is that going to do you at depth, when the neoprene loses buoyancy?

my dive buddy noticed a big difference in trim when switching from her shorty to a full wetsuit....so, Im of the mindset that every little adjustment helps.

so, i dunno, you tell me....I have a feeling i can put all my weight on my backplate, jack the tank way up, and still have trim issues.

neogeo
04-22-2009, 18:20
Wow that was a long week on no posting...

Navy you sure do have some heavy fins... that might be part of your problem... try some OMS Slipstreams or Turtle fins,

DMWiz
04-23-2009, 08:09
The reason I have such a big wing is simple: The price was right: less that $150 for an "Almost new" wing. But Bouzouki may be right and I might have too much wing. You are right Joe, this thing is huge! (Maybe I suffer from wing envy?! :smiley36: )

Would you be interested in a new-never-wet Oxy 50#?

MSilvia
04-23-2009, 10:41
I assumed a dual bladder was just a dbl. thickness bladder. But in reality its like having two wings?
Exactly... it's two distinct bladders, each with it's own inflator hose, packaged in the same wing. It gives you redundant buoyancy, assuming the first wing didn't fail because of catastrophic puncturing that might have compromised both bladders.



so, i dunno, you tell me....I have a feeling i can put all my weight on my backplate, jack the tank way up, and still have trim issues.
My initial thought was that the compression might reduce the effectiveness of the trim adjustment, but then I thought that since all your neoprene would compress at the same (or similar) rate, the ratio would stay the same. Of course, the degree to which your static weight placement will effect trim with different degrees of wetsuit compression is something of an unknown, so... I dunno... try it out, and you tell me. :)

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
04-23-2009, 10:56
Hmmm. I don't recall writing what you've quoted me as writing ;)





I assumed a dual bladder was just a dbl. thickness bladder. But in reality its like having two wings?
Exactly... it's two distinct bladders, each with it's own inflator hose, packaged in the same wing. It gives you redundant buoyancy, assuming the first wing didn't fail because of catastrophic puncturing that might have compromised both bladders.



so, i dunno, you tell me....I have a feeling i can put all my weight on my backplate, jack the tank way up, and still have trim issues.
My initial thought was that the compression might reduce the effectiveness of the trim adjustment, but then I thought that since all your neoprene would compress at the same (or similar) rate, the ratio would stay the same. Of course, the degree to which your static weight placement will effect trim with different degrees of wetsuit compression is something of an unknown, so... I dunno... try it out, and you tell me. :)

Dark Wolf
04-23-2009, 12:46
Indeed you didn't! :)

DW





for the time being, I'm getting thicker boots, possibly 3mm neoprene socks to wear under them
That's great in shallow water, but what good is that going to do you at depth, when the neoprene loses buoyancy?

my dive buddy noticed a big difference in trim when switching from her shorty to a full wetsuit....so, Im of the mindset that every little adjustment helps.

so, i dunno, you tell me....I have a feeling i can put all my weight on my backplate, jack the tank way up, and still have trim issues.

MSilvia
04-23-2009, 13:00
Right... sloppy edit on my part. I fixed the post.

Dark Wolf
04-23-2009, 14:38
Aww hell, no big deal. I was just having fun. :)

Plus, it is fun to see Joe get confused! :D

DW

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
04-23-2009, 15:03
I'm always confused. But nothing a few beers can't fix :D

navyhmc
04-23-2009, 21:11
I'm always confused. But nothing a few beers can't fix :D

Is that to overcome confusion or become more confused? :D :smiley36:

navyhmc
04-23-2009, 21:12
The reason I have such a big wing is simple: The price was right: less that $150 for an "Almost new" wing. But Bouzouki may be right and I might have too much wing. You are right Joe, this thing is huge! (Maybe I suffer from wing envy?! :smiley36: )

Would you be interested in a new-never-wet Oxy 50#?

Is it a dual baldder? That's the big thing I'm needing.

DMWiz
04-23-2009, 21:17
The reason I have such a big wing is simple: The price was right: less that $150 for an "Almost new" wing. But Bouzouki may be right and I might have too much wing. You are right Joe, this thing is huge! (Maybe I suffer from wing envy?! :smiley36: )

Would you be interested in a new-never-wet Oxy 50#?

Is it a dual baldder? That's the big thing I'm needing.

Nope not a dual bladder, but then again you don't need the dual bladder. You need THIS wing and a Dry suit.

navyhmc
04-23-2009, 21:29
The reason I have such a big wing is simple: The price was right: less that $150 for an "Almost new" wing. But Bouzouki may be right and I might have too much wing. You are right Joe, this thing is huge! (Maybe I suffer from wing envy?! :smiley36: )

Would you be interested in a new-never-wet Oxy 50#?

Is it a dual baldder? That's the big thing I'm needing.

Nope not a dual bladder, but then again you don't need the dual bladder. You need THIS wing and a Dry suit.

:smilie39: The wing was cheaper!