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DDGator
07-11-2007, 22:11
Is there an accepted difference between cave diving and cavern diving? Is any type of overhead obstructed environment considered cavern diving?
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<DIV>Is cavern diving considered o.k. or divers with only OW certification?</DIV>
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<DIV>Curious as to where the safety line is drawn. I am under the impression that it mostly has to do with whether or not you can safely make an emergency swimming ascent.</DIV>

CompuDude
07-11-2007, 23:08
Yes, there is a difference, although some agencies believe "Cavern" is a meaningless distinction and if you're going to do it, do full Cave and don't muck around with intro courses that might embolden you to get into a situation you're not fully trained to deal with.

I can't recall the precise definitive distinction (among agencies that actually recognize a Cavern cert, such as NAUI) (PADI does NOT count on this one), but I think it has to do with always being able to see natural light so you can make it to an exit, and never being more than a certain distance in regardless of a light source. The problem lies in the fact that a bad silt-out and re-draw the line, and if you're not trained well enough, you could be in good shape one minute and in deep doodoo the next, without moving an inch.

woody
07-12-2007, 05:00
Generally <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
A Cavern is considered to be in the natural light zone and depending on the agency it is within 130 and 200 linearly (Straight line- out and up) of the surface. I pretty much agree with CompuDude's thinking in that if you take on this level of training take it from a "FULL CAVE INSTRUCTOR!" w/ references from people you trust as having their head on straight. You will be more likely to get a reel (pun intended) education.


Is there an accepted difference between cave diving and cavern diving?

Cavern is regarded to be recreational friendly w/some additional gear and a whole lot of skill.

Cave Diving is a whole different deal. New Gear (Doubles, Isolation Manifold, Canister lights, 2 Backup Lights, Minimum 1 reel, and a spool/mini reel or two. Lets not forget the skill level. Lights out(The darkest of dark) with no mask on(Get comfy here, we are not talking about 5 breathing cycles think 20 or so minutes) while sharing air (Kinda like the Alternate Air source ascents you did in Open Water), through a restriction(Basically an opening in a cave only big enough for a single diver to pass through at a time) while holding better buoyancy than you see out at the local quarry.



Is any type of overhead obstructed environment considered cavern diving?

not at all

<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
Is cavern diving considered o.k. or divers with only OW certification?</DIV>
I would recommend at least an AOW (some require it) and some additional dives. Really Good buoyancy I mean REALLY GOOD! And rescue training is always recommended for any advanced diving activity.
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<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
Woody

Vercingetorix
07-12-2007, 11:39
The next time I'm in Cancun, I would like to dive in a cenote. Is Cave/Cavern diving training required for this if I go with an established dive operator?

CompuDude
07-12-2007, 13:10
It's not required. Recommended, yes, but not required. The dive ops will only take you to the "bunny slopes" of the cave world, of course. (one would hope!)

Vercingetorix
07-12-2007, 13:58
OK, Woody, I agree with CompuDude. I know you're the local tech dive and caver guru. Is there a way cave/cavern can be done locally here in the Dallas area?

woody
07-12-2007, 14:27
OK, Woody, I agree with CompuDude. I know you're the local tech dive and caver guru. Is there a way cave/cavern can be done locally here in the Dallas area?
The Best training that you are going to find 'locally' is going to be the instructors in Florida or Playa Del Carmen / Akumul. You could hookup with a local Instructor here and do the book work and then head with them to one of those 2 destinations. (Yes there are more than those two. just the 2 best options around for us), but I suggest to make a long weekend of it and head somewhere. It's just another excuse for a dive trip.
Woody.

woody
07-12-2007, 14:34
The next time I'm in Cancun, I would like to dive in a cenote. Is Cave/Cavern diving training required for this if I go with an established dive operator?
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Yes you can. You will pay 150 to 200 for 2 cenotes dives. Your guide is only supposed to take you and one other along with them. You will do a quick buoyancy check at the begging to asses your diving ability. The better your skills the better your dive will be.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P></O:P>
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Woody<O:P></O:P>

Bill22
07-30-2007, 22:45
Is there an accepted difference between cave diving and cavern diving?

By definition Cavern Diving is staying within the light zone and within 130 total feet to the surface.

Dive-aholic
07-31-2007, 02:54
It's 130' to the surface, linear + depth, for PADI. For NACD and NSS-CDS, the limitation is 200'.

To answer the OP, there are some places where OW divers are allowed to cavern dive - Ginnie Ballroom, Paradise Springs, Devil's Den, Blue Grotto in Florida and several cenotes in Mexico. However, it's not safe. Cavern diving is diving in an overhead. You don't have direct access to the surface and unlimited air. If something goes wrong and you haven't been trained how to deal with it, you will die. Countless numbers of divers from OW divers to OW instructors have died in caverns and caves because they weren't properly trained. It's not just about making an emergency ascent. It's about getting lost, silting out the system, etc. The Florida caverns I've named are not easy to get lost in, but it's still possible. Other caverns I haven't named are very easy to get lost in. The best thing to do is get the training. It's well worth it, even if you find out you don't like cavern dives. The skills you learn in a good cavern course are invaluable in any type of diving.

Oh, and the main difference between cavern diving and cave diving (besides the level of training and the equipment) is that in cavern diving, sunlight is your primary light source. However, I've been in caverns within all the limitations - distance, light, etc - and been able to see the daylight, but hardly enough to light things up where I was.

Dive safe!

ianr33
07-31-2007, 14:48
Others have described the technical differences between Cavern and Cave.When I did Intro Cave I found there was a HUGE difference mentally between the two. A Cavern was a fun dive that happened to have rock over your head. A Cave was dark,spooky,a LONG way from the surface and basically felt like a Big Deal.

One thing that helped me a lot was that I had been doing deco dives for a few years so was familiar with doubles and dives where you can not just head to the surface to fix a problem. I would imagine that doing a Cave Course straight out of ,say,AOW could be quite an experience.

Dive-aholic
07-31-2007, 22:51
Others have described the technical differences between Cavern and Cave.When I did Intro Cave I found there was a HUGE difference mentally between the two. A Cavern was a fun dive that happened to have rock over your head. A Cave was dark,spooky,a LONG way from the surface and basically felt like a Big Deal.

I didn't see the cave as being dark and spooky. I did Cavern and Intro 6 months apart. Our last cavern dive was in Devil's Ear. What hooked me was the large passage that headed into darkness along with the 2 scooter divers coming out of the darkness. It beckoned to me. That's why I went back 6 months later. Unfortunately, cavern diving is all too often viewed as what you just described it as. OW divers look at it that way and end up dying in caverns (we just had a cavern death this year). Ginnie Springs allows OW divers into the ballroom with lights and there have been deaths there. Any overhead environment, whether it be rock, steel, or deco is a big deal. They all prevent a direct ascent to the surface.

ianr33
08-01-2007, 08:23
Didn't mean to minimise the risk of cavern diving in any way.Just stating that for me the cavern portion of my course was well within my comfort zone,whereas the cave section pushed that comfort level pretty hard.

My first cave dive was at Vortex which did not do that much for me.What I consider to be my first "real" Cave Dive was Hole in the Wall on the Millpond. Bit of a tight entry then drop down a chimney. Zero Flow,less than perfect viz and a silt floor that looked to be several feet thick. Just looked like a bad place to screw up.I remember thinking at the time "do I really want to be a Cave Diver ? "
I need to go back there and dive it again to see if it is as spooky as I remember. Probably not!

Dive-aholic
08-01-2007, 12:32
Hole is a beautiful cave. It was different diving that cave the first time. That chimney can seem daunting. But if you want spooky, try Peacock III. That cave is truly spooky...well, the entrance is anyway. Let me know when you head back. I'm moving to the Marianna area in less than 2 weeks. JB is the cave I dive the most, but I'll be hitting Hole and Twin a lot more once I'm living there.

ianr33
08-01-2007, 14:07
Let me know when you head back. I'm moving to the Marianna area in less than 2 weeks.

Will bear that in mind,hope to get back that way once more this year.

Cheers

GatorSoul
08-03-2007, 09:17
It's a long proccess, getting full cave certified. I have been wanting to get cave cert since I first received my OW and realized I was from Florida - cave country. Now that I have just move back home (living overseas for the past 3 years) I am stoked to get certified. However, I realize the training and time neccessary. I have 52 logged dives, I have my wreck c-card (on the wrecks of Coron, Philippines) and my Cavern C-card (training done at Blue Grotto and Ginnie's Devils, I have also dove Hospital Hole and Hudson Grotto), yet I know that I have awhile to go before becoming fully cave certified.

First, the equipment investment is not for the faint of wallet (cannister lights, tanks, manifolds, independent systems, dry suit, the list goes on). Being a public school teacher and in Grad school only serves to exascerbate the issue.

Next, I want to know what I am doing, have my bouyancy down pat, using only drop weights, reel work to be natural, etc.

Finally, I believe I need all of the emergency training. I understand that Rescue Diver courses are designed for OW, but wouldn't the knowledge be pertinent if only to rescue myself. As for getting the DM before Intro Cave, I am still unsure. The only good reason for getting DM before Intro Cave is that if I become a DM for a specific shop, they will most likely be able to sell me equipment at cost.

I have discuss this line of reasoning to several people, who had varying opinions. Would love if some of you here at the board could add to it or point out holes in my logic.

Thanks.

CompuDude
08-03-2007, 10:22
Definitely get Rescue trained. Every diver should.

No need for DM unless you want to go pro. There is good knowledge in that course, but it'll significantly delay your getting cave trained... and the skills it teaches have nothing to do with diving caves. The deco theory and physiology info is all great stuff, but learning to organize students and demo how to clear your mask is not going to help you a bit in a cave. Not to mention, it's not cheap... that money would be better spent on gear.

Dive, dive, dive. Buoyancy is everything, as are learning the kicks.

You already know about the shock that's about to hit your wallet.

GatorSoul
08-04-2007, 09:23
but learning to organize students and demo how to clear your mask is not going to help you a bit in a cave.

Thanks for the advice. I don't want to learn how to herd cattle. I just was looking for a way to minimize cost a little. Nevertheless, Rescus is the next class for me.

medictom
08-08-2007, 21:45
True that your light source is Sunlight, but I always like to take a back up light with me, what if there is a silt out??

DivingsInMyBlood
08-08-2007, 21:50
Cave diving seems pretty hardcore, i think you have to be a pretty skilled diver to take that stuff on.

ianr33
08-09-2007, 09:55
True that your light source is Sunlight, but I always like to take a back up light with me, what if there is a silt out??

If there is a bad silt out you will not see anything with half a dozen lights.Thats what the line is for.

3 guys made that mistake earlier this year on the Spiegel Grove

http://www.thescubastop.com/news/readnews.php?t=81

Dive-aholic
08-09-2007, 11:02
True that your light source is Sunlight, but I always like to take a back up light with me, what if there is a silt out??

That's what the line is for. I've been in a silt out in a cavern. It was a very tight, small cavern. In fact, I got to a point where I couldn't go any farther in backmount. When I turned, there was no visibility. I couldn't even see my reel, in my hand! I've also been in black water as a PSD. We set up guidelines with shore tethers to guide us. No amount of light would have helped in either case.



Cave diving seems pretty hardcore, i think you have to be a pretty skilled diver to take that stuff on.

I don't see it as hardcore. It requires skill, but it's just another type of diving...that requires a lot of expensive gear.

willardj
08-23-2007, 19:41
I am a Cavern diver through NSS-CDS it was a great course weather you just want to improve your OW diving or proceed to full cave its a great course. I took my cavern in doubles and was just fine. Mostly it is tault in singles but depends on skill and the instructor.

Goober
12-13-2007, 20:44
Others have described the technical differences between Cavern and Cave.When I did Intro Cave I found there was a HUGE difference mentally between the two. A Cavern was a fun dive that happened to have rock over your head. A Cave was dark,spooky,a LONG way from the surface and basically felt like a Big Deal.

I didn't see the cave as being dark and spooky. I did Cavern and Intro 6 months apart. Our last cavern dive was in Devil's Ear. What hooked me was the large passage that headed into darkness along with the 2 scooter divers coming out of the darkness. It beckoned to me. That's why I went back 6 months later. Unfortunately, cavern diving is all too often viewed as what you just described it as. OW divers look at it that way and end up dying in caverns (we just had a cavern death this year). Ginnie Springs allows OW divers into the ballroom with lights and there have been deaths there. Any overhead environment, whether it be rock, steel, or deco is a big deal. They all prevent a direct ascent to the surface.

Now I'm under the impression that devils ear and eye are all part of the massive cave system down at Ginnie...in fact here is the sign at Devils Ear/ Eye at Ginnie as well as pics of both entrances. Now I know that the sign at the ballroom ( a true cavern enviroment) does not have any resrictions other than they suggest you head back with 2/3 of your air supply , which we all know is common practice, or should be. Now should just any OW diver be in there just because the caves are blocked off and the massive flow would eventually push you out probably not. But yes any certified diver is allowed in the Ballroom.

LCF
12-14-2007, 04:49
Yes, the Devil's Eye and Ear are two entrances to the same cave system.

The Ballroom is a cavern where the cave entrance has been grated off, so it is not possible to go beyond the daylight zone.

In answer to a question a bunch of posts back, the cenotes in the Akumal area are accessible to OW divers who go with a guide. The guide must be a scuba instructor and full cave, and dive in full cave gear. The guide may take up to four people at a time on the tour. A guideline is to be run to open water. We did cavern tours in March, and I believe we paid $150 per person for the day, including tanks (singles), guide and site fees.

It is my personal opinion that these tours are an excellent way for the OW diver to get a small taste of overhead diving in a spectacularly beautiful setting, and see if the hook gets set. All you need is excellent buoyancy control and horizontal trim, and those are really necessary out of respect for the fragility of the cave environment.

But such tours can be an expensive indulgence, she says two sets of doubles, doubles regs, can light, reel, and cavern and intro class later . . . :)

Mycroft
12-14-2007, 20:40
Ok, I have been to Paradise, Blue Grotto, Devil's Den, Ginnie Springs (all three) I am part way thru Cavern thru NSS-CD. The reason that BG, Paradise, and DD are listed as OW is that Paradise and Blue Grotto have permanently mounted lines. Devil's Den is a big circle and you can't get lost.

Now with that being said - I almost lost a buddy in Devil's Den. Got himself into the overhead area and managed to get himself in the position of not being able to get to either reg.

I switched to a long hose in Cavern Class, and I was glad of all the practice from Rescue and Cavern Classes.

Dive-aholic
12-15-2007, 18:49
All caves have permanently mounted lines. The reason BG, Paradise, etc are listed as OW are because the land owners list them that way. It's all about money...

GDiver
12-19-2007, 14:34
The next time I'm in Cancun, I would like to dive in a cenote. Is Cave/Cavern diving training required for this if I go with an established dive operator?
<DIV></DIV>
Yes you can. You will pay 150 to 200 for 2 cenotes dives. Your guide is only supposed to take you and one other along with them. You will do a quick buoyancy check at the begging to asses your diving ability. The better your skills the better your dive will be.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P></O:P>
<O:P></O:P>
Woody<O:P></O:P>

A couple of years ago, I dove cenotes in the Mayan Riviera area. My dive guide took five of us along. Seemed a little crowded at first, but the cenotes were extremely open and there never really seemed to be any real chances of a silt out. I had a great time and I'm looking forward to doing it again in the near future.

in_cavediver
12-20-2007, 20:21
I just want to say this about caverns. There is a reason why they made the video "A deceptively easy way to die". Caverns are just like any other dive spot until vis goes down, or you have am emergency etc. Then you understand how 50' into and overhead can kill. (and has numerous times over the years). Its ignorance that kills and OW divers lack the basic knowledge to even identify all of the risks they have going in let alone mitigate them.

The video is streamed and can be seen here for free:
DVDs -- Diving-Related Adventure and Educational Documentaries (http://www.diveriteexpress.com/logowear/dvds.shtml)

Please get the training. A cavern class is only a couple days and fairly inexpensive. We don't need more statistics due to ignorance of the dangers.

CaribbeanDiver
12-24-2007, 12:54
thanks for the links IN CAVE. terrific videos.
one thing you forgot to mention; however, before taking any cavern or cave course, be sure you work on your buoyancy and trim or you will not only not successfully finish the course, but you may not even make one cavern dive. If the instructor feels you cannot maintain your position in the water column sufficiently enough to swim without kicking up silt, disturbing the wall and ceiling setiment or keep from destroying the environment he will not even take you into the cavern.
Stay safe, be well and Merry Christmas to all.

GDiver
12-27-2007, 08:59
I just want to say this about caverns. There is a reason why they made the video "A deceptively easy way to die". Caverns are just like any other dive spot until vis goes down, or you have am emergency etc. Then you understand how 50' into and overhead can kill. (and has numerous times over the years). Its ignorance that kills and OW divers lack the basic knowledge to even identify all of the risks they have going in let alone mitigate them.

The video is streamed and can be seen here for free:
DVDs -- Diving-Related Adventure and Educational Documentaries (http://www.diveriteexpress.com/logowear/dvds.shtml)

Please get the training. A cavern class is only a couple days and fairly inexpensive. We don't need more statistics due to ignorance of the dangers.

Good video. Thanks.

Goober
12-27-2007, 13:16
And I'm headed to Ginnie tommorow to hit the Ballroom for the first time.............................................. ..................................... Now you make me wonder if I want to go in at all.

I've spoke with my instructor who knows Ginnie and Devils Trio like the back of his hand. As well as he knows my capabilities. He knows beyond any doubt that I'd never attempt to go into a cave.

I'm scared and he knows that. While it is something I eventually want to do, I'm scared non the less. He seems to think that I'll be fine in the Ballroom. I'm even considering holding the rope all the way in and all the way back out. I know how serious this stuff is. Cave diving and wreck penetration is huge at my LDS.

So in light of all this?????????????????????????????

CaribbeanDiver
12-28-2007, 06:22
And I'm headed to Ginnie tommorow to hit the Ballroom for the first time.............................................. ..................................... Now you make me wonder if I want to go in at all.

I've spoke with my instructor who knows Ginnie and Devils Trio like the back of his hand. As well as he knows my capabilities. He knows beyond any doubt that I'd never attempt to go into a cave.

I'm scared and he knows that. While it is something I eventually want to do, I'm scared non the less. He seems to think that I'll be fine in the Ballroom. I'm even considering holding the rope all the way in and all the way back out. I know how serious this stuff is. Cave diving and wreck penetration is huge at my LDS.

So in light of all this?????????????????????????????First, do NOT go into a cavern without first successfully completing a cavern course. Second, if your instructor seems fine with it, he is gravely mistaken. Third, you are not even aware what dangers are present in diving in an overhead environment.
I see your dive count listed as 0-24. To even consider entering a cavern at this point is completely insane.
I STONGLY suggest you read the book, Caverns Measureless to Man by Sheck Exley. Mr Exley was a poineer in cavern/cave diving and is the "inventor" of such common things as the Octopus and stage bottles.
Let me ask you rhetorically, can you maintain your position in the water column while running a line? Can you hold your reel to run the line while holding a light with the other hand? Do you have a canister which will allow for handsfree lighting? What happens if you have some emergency, even minor, like your mask gets knocked off or flooded and you are holding a reel in one hand and a light in the other? Do you know how to perform frog kicks, modified frog kicks, helicoptor turns, and modified flutter kicks? Can you propel yourself without kicking up silt? If you do not run a line and kick up silt, how do you find your way out?
Will you be with an experienced, trained dive buddy?
Do you know that over 700 people have been killed in caverns/caves since 1960? Do you know the number one cause of these deaths has been the fact that these divers were not trained for cavern/cave diving?
Ever hear of the NO LIGHT rule? That is when diving at a site that has a cavern/cave and you or your buddy are not trained for such diving, you do not take a light with you so you will not be tempted to make a cavern/cave dive.
Watch this video and please reconsider your plans to make dives that exceed your training. The video is entitled, A deceptively easy way to die. DVDs -- Diving-Related Adventure and Educational Documentaries (http://www.diveriteexpress.com/logowear/dvds.shtml#diedvd) it is a 10 minute video put out by the NSS-CDS (National Speleological Society - Cave Diving Section).
Safe diving and best wishes for a great 2008.

Goober
12-28-2007, 20:49
And I'm headed to Ginnie tommorow to hit the Ballroom for the first time.............................................. ..................................... Now you make me wonder if I want to go in at all.

I've spoke with my instructor who knows Ginnie and Devils Trio like the back of his hand. As well as he knows my capabilities. He knows beyond any doubt that I'd never attempt to go into a cave.

I'm scared and he knows that. While it is something I eventually want to do, I'm scared non the less. He seems to think that I'll be fine in the Ballroom. I'm even considering holding the rope all the way in and all the way back out. I know how serious this stuff is. Cave diving and wreck penetration is huge at my LDS.

So in light of all this?????????????????????????????First, do NOT go into a cavern without first successfully completing a cavern course. Second, if your instructor seems fine with it, he is gravely mistaken. Third, you are not even aware what dangers are present in diving in an overhead environment.
I see your dive count listed as 0-24. To even consider entering a cavern at this point is completely insane.
I STONGLY suggest you read the book, Caverns Measureless to Man by Sheck Exley. Mr Exley was a poineer in cavern/cave diving and is the "inventor" of such common things as the Octopus and stage bottles.
Let me ask you rhetorically, can you maintain your position in the water column while running a line? Can you hold your reel to run the line while holding a light with the other hand? Do you have a canister which will allow for handsfree lighting? What happens if you have some emergency, even minor, like your mask gets knocked off or flooded and you are holding a reel in one hand and a light in the other? Do you know how to perform frog kicks, modified frog kicks, helicoptor turns, and modified flutter kicks? Can you propel yourself without kicking up silt? If you do not run a line and kick up silt, how do you find your way out?
Will you be with an experienced, trained dive buddy?
Do you know that over 700 people have been killed in caverns/caves since 1960? Do you know the number one cause of these deaths has been the fact that these divers were not trained for cavern/cave diving?
Ever hear of the NO LIGHT rule? That is when diving at a site that has a cavern/cave and you or your buddy are not trained for such diving, you do not take a light with you so you will not be tempted to make a cavern/cave dive.
Watch this video and please reconsider your plans to make dives that exceed your training. The video is entitled, A deceptively easy way to die. DVDs -- Diving-Related Adventure and Educational Documentaries (http://www.diveriteexpress.com/logowear/dvds.shtml#diedvd) it is a 10 minute video put out by the NSS-CDS (National Speleological Society - Cave Diving Section).
Safe diving and best wishes for a great 2008.

Are you even familiar with Ginnie springs? Go check out there web site. I'm very aware of the dangers of an overhead enviroment. That's why I didn't get hardly any sleep for the last several days.

I watched the video, paid heed too. You wont catch me in caves for years. Infact there are two other caverns there that i'll not even drop down into. As with Ginnie they will let OW in the caverns but not the caves.

The two other caverns are basicly the mouth of the cave these i did a fly by on. These are two of the three that are your NO LIGHT RULE areas. And yes I've heard of it. They are actually what I commonly refer to as the Devils Trio, Actually named little devil, devil's eye and devil's ear. These three command respect, period.

I consider myself a very level headed diver as well as a man. If you are comfortable with your gear. Have a good light as well as a back up light. Have a good grasp on bouyancy control, I see very little danger in the Ballroom at Ginnie.

Thank you for your concern. The attack on my instructor was over the top though. You do not know the man, me, my skills; or the enviroment I was planning on going in. Nor do you have a grasp on my mental facilities.

Just as you urged me to reconsider with out fully informing myself (admirable I might add), I would urge you to do the same before making assumptions.

I rocked the Ballroom at Ginnie today, and as stated by many that have been there before me...."It was very cool, but no big deal"

in_cavediver
12-28-2007, 21:31
And I'm headed to Ginnie tommorow to hit the Ballroom for the first time.............................................. ..................................... Now you make me wonder if I want to go in at all.

I've spoke with my instructor who knows Ginnie and Devils Trio like the back of his hand. As well as he knows my capabilities. He knows beyond any doubt that I'd never attempt to go into a cave.

I'm scared and he knows that. While it is something I eventually want to do, I'm scared non the less. He seems to think that I'll be fine in the Ballroom. I'm even considering holding the rope all the way in and all the way back out. I know how serious this stuff is. Cave diving and wreck penetration is huge at my LDS.

So in light of all this?????????????????????????????First, do NOT go into a cavern without first successfully completing a cavern course. Second, if your instructor seems fine with it, he is gravely mistaken. Third, you are not even aware what dangers are present in diving in an overhead environment.
I see your dive count listed as 0-24. To even consider entering a cavern at this point is completely insane.
I STONGLY suggest you read the book, Caverns Measureless to Man by Sheck Exley. Mr Exley was a poineer in cavern/cave diving and is the "inventor" of such common things as the Octopus and stage bottles.
Let me ask you rhetorically, can you maintain your position in the water column while running a line? Can you hold your reel to run the line while holding a light with the other hand? Do you have a canister which will allow for handsfree lighting? What happens if you have some emergency, even minor, like your mask gets knocked off or flooded and you are holding a reel in one hand and a light in the other? Do you know how to perform frog kicks, modified frog kicks, helicoptor turns, and modified flutter kicks? Can you propel yourself without kicking up silt? If you do not run a line and kick up silt, how do you find your way out?
Will you be with an experienced, trained dive buddy?
Do you know that over 700 people have been killed in caverns/caves since 1960? Do you know the number one cause of these deaths has been the fact that these divers were not trained for cavern/cave diving?
Ever hear of the NO LIGHT rule? That is when diving at a site that has a cavern/cave and you or your buddy are not trained for such diving, you do not take a light with you so you will not be tempted to make a cavern/cave dive.
Watch this video and please reconsider your plans to make dives that exceed your training. The video is entitled, A deceptively easy way to die. DVDs -- Diving-Related Adventure and Educational Documentaries (http://www.diveriteexpress.com/logowear/dvds.shtml#diedvd) it is a 10 minute video put out by the NSS-CDS (National Speleological Society - Cave Diving Section).
Safe diving and best wishes for a great 2008.

Are you even familiar with Ginnie springs? Go check out there web site. I'm very aware of the dangers of an overhead enviroment. That's why I didn't get hardly any sleep for the last several days.

I watched the video, paid heed too. You wont catch me in caves for years. Infact there are two other caverns there that i'll not even drop down into. As with Ginnie they will let OW in the caverns but not the caves.

The two other caverns are basicly the mouth of the cave these i did a fly by on. These are two of the three that are your NO LIGHT RULE areas. And yes I've heard of it. They are actually what I commonly refer to as the Devils Trio, Actually named little devil, devil's eye and devil's ear. These three command respect, period.

I consider myself a very level headed diver as well as a man. If you are comfortable with your gear. Have a good light as well as a back up light. Have a good grasp on bouyancy control, I see very little danger in the Ballroom at Ginnie.

Thank you for your concern. The attack on my instructor was over the top though. You do not know the man, me, my skills; or the enviroment I was planning on going in. Nor do you have a grasp on my mental facilities.

Just as you urged me to reconsider with out fully informing myself (admirable I might add), I would urge you to do the same before making assumptions.

I rocked the Ballroom at Ginnie today, and as stated by many that have been there before me...."It was very cool, but no big deal"

I won't make any assumptions because I don't know you. I will add one small tidbit though. People have died in the ballroom system. Vortex springs, another 'OW friendly cave/cavern" has killed as well.

Remember, just because someone lets you do it doesn't mean its a good idea.

As I said above, every diver must manage the risks for themselves. I simply emplore them to get the proper training for caverns/caves for my own selfish reasons. (I like access and dead divers doesn't lend itself for keeping access)

Dive safe

Goober
12-28-2007, 22:20
And I'm headed to Ginnie tommorow to hit the Ballroom for the first time.............................................. ..................................... Now you make me wonder if I want to go in at all.

I've spoke with my instructor who knows Ginnie and Devils Trio like the back of his hand. As well as he knows my capabilities. He knows beyond any doubt that I'd never attempt to go into a cave.

I'm scared and he knows that. While it is something I eventually want to do, I'm scared non the less. He seems to think that I'll be fine in the Ballroom. I'm even considering holding the rope all the way in and all the way back out. I know how serious this stuff is. Cave diving and wreck penetration is huge at my LDS.

So in light of all this?????????????????????????????First, do NOT go into a cavern without first successfully completing a cavern course. Second, if your instructor seems fine with it, he is gravely mistaken. Third, you are not even aware what dangers are present in diving in an overhead environment.
I see your dive count listed as 0-24. To even consider entering a cavern at this point is completely insane.
I STONGLY suggest you read the book, Caverns Measureless to Man by Sheck Exley. Mr Exley was a poineer in cavern/cave diving and is the "inventor" of such common things as the Octopus and stage bottles.
Let me ask you rhetorically, can you maintain your position in the water column while running a line? Can you hold your reel to run the line while holding a light with the other hand? Do you have a canister which will allow for handsfree lighting? What happens if you have some emergency, even minor, like your mask gets knocked off or flooded and you are holding a reel in one hand and a light in the other? Do you know how to perform frog kicks, modified frog kicks, helicoptor turns, and modified flutter kicks? Can you propel yourself without kicking up silt? If you do not run a line and kick up silt, how do you find your way out?
Will you be with an experienced, trained dive buddy?
Do you know that over 700 people have been killed in caverns/caves since 1960? Do you know the number one cause of these deaths has been the fact that these divers were not trained for cavern/cave diving?
Ever hear of the NO LIGHT rule? That is when diving at a site that has a cavern/cave and you or your buddy are not trained for such diving, you do not take a light with you so you will not be tempted to make a cavern/cave dive.
Watch this video and please reconsider your plans to make dives that exceed your training. The video is entitled, A deceptively easy way to die. DVDs -- Diving-Related Adventure and Educational Documentaries (http://www.diveriteexpress.com/logowear/dvds.shtml#diedvd) it is a 10 minute video put out by the NSS-CDS (National Speleological Society - Cave Diving Section).
Safe diving and best wishes for a great 2008.

Are you even familiar with Ginnie springs? Go check out there web site. I'm very aware of the dangers of an overhead enviroment. That's why I didn't get hardly any sleep for the last several days.

I watched the video, paid heed too. You wont catch me in caves for years. Infact there are two other caverns there that i'll not even drop down into. As with Ginnie they will let OW in the caverns but not the caves.

The two other caverns are basicly the mouth of the cave these i did a fly by on. These are two of the three that are your NO LIGHT RULE areas. And yes I've heard of it. They are actually what I commonly refer to as the Devils Trio, Actually named little devil, devil's eye and devil's ear. These three command respect, period.

I consider myself a very level headed diver as well as a man. If you are comfortable with your gear. Have a good light as well as a back up light. Have a good grasp on bouyancy control, I see very little danger in the Ballroom at Ginnie.

Thank you for your concern. The attack on my instructor was over the top though. You do not know the man, me, my skills; or the enviroment I was planning on going in. Nor do you have a grasp on my mental facilities.

Just as you urged me to reconsider with out fully informing myself (admirable I might add), I would urge you to do the same before making assumptions.

I rocked the Ballroom at Ginnie today, and as stated by many that have been there before me...."It was very cool, but no big deal"

I won't make any assumptions because I don't know you. I will add one small tidbit though. People have died in the ballroom system. Vortex springs, another 'OW friendly cave/cavern" has killed as well.

Remember, just because someone lets you do it doesn't mean its a good idea.

As I said above, every diver must manage the risks for themselves. I simply emplore them to get the proper training for caverns/caves for my own selfish reasons. (I like access and dead divers doesn't lend itself for keeping access)

Dive safe

I agree with you 100%. There are no denying the facts simply stated. Reasonably put as you just did, extreamly acceptable. I'll not deny that there are no dangers in the ballroom. These dangers have been discussed and exhausted for some time now over many one on one and casual converstations with my instructors.

I'd also like for someone to admit that divers, experianced and not, die offshore and in quarries too. I found it quite interesting that my buddie who has been Gung Hoe about going in the Ballroom for some time, got in there (he did fine) but was not real thrilled about it. In fact admited afterwards that he was not real sure he wanted to be in there.

I on the other hand, the one who has worried about this, done my homework, made sure that the people that go down there on a weekly basis and train Cave/Cavern, who know me and my skills, dive with me, love me had the confidence in me that I could do it safely.

The one whom has slept little more than a total of 16-17 hours over the course of 4 days, laying in bed going over for lack of a better term"systems failure analysis" and wory, worry , worry. Went in there like a true profesional and was fine. I was surprised at how comfortable I was. Though I was still extreamly keyed up too.

I actually kneeled right there at the entrance for about 200psi looking in, looking overhead, doing fin pivots, getting my head clear and a good plan down. Study, study , studying everything. Then as I got good control of my breathing, and bouyancy, eased off in there.

For me the guy who worried from the start months ago, it was wonderful. For the guy who thought it was going to be a fairly easy dive ( and it actually was ) he was not real comfortable at first once we were in there.

He asked me to wait a sec to see if he could level off a bit. I gave him the "are you sure look"? With a nod he signaled was, and soon he was a little more in the spirit of things.

I had to give him the buddy razz check about the whole thing at the surface. As before the dive it was "calm down, well be fine".

MBH
12-29-2007, 18:53
Would the OP care to elucidate upon the 5 factors of accident analysis???

Goober
12-29-2007, 20:29
Would the OP care to elucidate upon the 5 factors of accident analysis???


Be trained for cave diving,and remain within the limits of your training....this pertains to caves, not caverns with abundant ambiant light.

Maintain a continuous guidline to the cave exit....the ballroom at ginnie has a rope an inch in diameter that goes from the entrance, 120' to the the rear of the cavern where the cave access is grated off

keep 2/3 of your starting gas in reserve to exit....went in with 3100psi, started a 120' straight exit at 2000psi, was not even down to 1900psi upon exit, even with a 3 min safety stop. Dive logged as 49' max depth, average depth of 25' total dive time 26 min.

Remain in the safest possible operating limits for your breathing media

Take 3 sources of light....with plenty of ambiant light inside the cavern, 4 sources of light were considered a safe margine.

Mtrewyn
12-29-2007, 21:14
There is an article in Scuba diving this month about diving in "caverns" in the Yucatan. They are guided dives, and you never get out of "ambient light".

LCF
12-29-2007, 21:59
The definition of a cavern zone is that you should always be able to see ambient light. But I will say from experience that some of the guided cavern dives in Mexico are such that you would only see ambient light if everybody covered their dive lights and you squinted really hard. It's dark in Dos Ojos!

Carwash, on the other hand, is an entirely different kind of cavern dive. There, the open water is always just to the side of you, and you can always really see the light.

Overhead environments are not for the nervous, or the unskilled, and only under very specific circumstances are they for the untrained. (After all, one's first cavern dive as a student, one is untrained, right?)

in_cavediver
12-29-2007, 22:59
OK, for those who didn't quite get it, accident analysis as applied to cave/cavern diving by Sheck Exley and he came up with these 5 key points. These apply to BOTH caverns and caves.

1) Training - IE, it takes cave/cavern training to cave/cavern dive. Also, stay within you limits of training and expierence, IE a cavern diver shouldn't be outside of the light zone. No amount of OW expierence prepares you to cave dive. OW instructors have died in caves due to lack of training.

2) Continuos Guideline. This is a continuous guideline to open water. The permanent line in the ballroom doesn't technically count as it doesn't lead to OW. (or it didn't a couple years ago when I was last there)

3) Gas - Basically thirds or more conservitive. Always plan to have enough gas to get you and your buddy out.

4) Lights - always carry three sources of light per team member. When cavern diving, the sun is your primary light. Hence, its not possible to do a 'night cavern dive. I still would recommend 3 lights for a cavern diver even if the rule calls for 2.

5) Depth - Stay within 130' depth limit or in more modern terms a 130' equivalent narcotic depth.

Depending on when you get the list, 4 and 5 have flipped. Before the introduction of trimix, depth/narcocis was a major issue. Now, lights have move up the list.

in_cavediver
12-29-2007, 23:02
.....and only under very specific circumstances are they for the untrained. (After all, one's first cavern dive as a student, one is untrained, right?)

Not quite true. The first part of cavern class is lecture and land drills. Those drills are repeated in OW before ever entering a cavern. The goal is that a cavern student, on their first ever cavern dive should be able to get themselves out safely if thier instructor became incapacitated.

Goober
12-29-2007, 23:13
In the 1960s and 1970s, cave diving pioneer Sheck Exley conducted a careful study of cave diving fatalities. What he discovered was that, in virtually every instance, the victims' demise could be attributed to one or more of just three direct causes. Later, National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section (NSS-CDS) Training Chairman Wes C. Skiles identified two additional factors that, while not directly responsible for divers' deaths, nonetheless contributed substantially to most such fatalities.
Together, the findings of Exley and Skiles form the basis for what cave divers know as the Rules of Accident Analysis. These five rules form the basis for all modern cave diver training. They are something of which every diver who visits this unique area should be aware.
This article provides a synopsis of these rules. (And, in the tradition of Late Night with David Letterman, we'll work from the bottom of the list to the top.)

5: Use Three Sources of Light (http://www.cavediving.com/how/5_rules/05.htm)
4: Remain Within the Safest Possible Operating Limits for Your Breathing Media (http://www.cavediving.com/how/5_rules/04.htm)
3. Keep Two Thirds of Your Starting Gas Volume in Reserve to Exit the Cave (http://www.cavediving.com/how/5_rules/03.htm)
2. Maintain a Continuous Guideline to the Cave Exit (http://www.cavediving.com/how/5_rules/02.htm)
1. Be Trained for Cave Diving, and Remain Within the Limits of Your Training (http://www.cavediving.com/how/5_rules/01.htm)Pardon my attention to detail but I do not see the word "Cavern" in here at all

MBH
12-30-2007, 12:04
Pardon my attention to detail but the 5 points of accident analysis is part of the NSS-CDS Cavern, Intro, Basic Cave student workbook (pg.14). It's also part of the cavern divers written examination.

in_cavediver
12-30-2007, 12:37
......Pardon my attention to detail but I do not see the word "Cavern" in here at all

I am quite sure if you talk to Johnny Richards, who maintains the site you quoted and teaches mixed gas cave diving, he'd tell you these rules apply equally well to ALL overhead environments. Sheck just concentrated on cave dives but these rules/guidelines work just as well in wrecks and under the ice. (the blood its written in came from lessons in caves though)

Also, as a matter of point, the NACD, NSS-CDS and IANTD all teach these as a part of cavern training. I am quite sure all the other agencies teaching cave/cavern diving cover them as well, I just don't have personal firsthand knowledge of the standards stating it.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but there are few things in diving that are really important. Caves/Caverns have proven to be very good killers to those who weren't prepared for them. Most divers who haven't have cave/cavern training simply don't have enough information to do a good risk analysis and ignorance can kill easily here. I strongly urge those interested to invest the couple hundred dollars and take the cavern class.

Mtrewyn
12-30-2007, 13:15
Wow this is a heated discussion! :smilie40:

Goober
12-30-2007, 14:45
......Pardon my attention to detail but I do not see the word "Cavern" in here at all



I don't want to sound like a jerk, but there are few things in diving that are really important. Caves/Caverns have proven to be very good killers to those who weren't prepared for them. Most divers who haven't have cave/cavern training simply don't have enough information to do a good risk analysis and ignorance can kill easily here. I strongly urge those interested to invest the couple hundred dollars and take the cavern class.

Nor do I want to sound like a jerk, but to me (and in a not so humble opinion), everything about diving is really important not just certain select criteria. Non of it takes precedent over any of it. Without basic skills you have no foundation for advanced skills. Without one you can not have the other. Caves/Caverns have proven to be killers. So has open waterwater, Child Birth, Operating a Motor Vehicle as well as walking down the street.

The assumption made in this thread, that if someone has not taken an agency sanctified Pre Tech, Cave/Cavern course. 1)Is apparently ignorant to any of the critera of these courses. 2)has absolutely no understanding or comprehension of dangers that apply or could arrise. 3) does not have the personal ability to deal with many of the common and often fatal situations that could, can and does arise in that type of enviroment. 4)As this pertains to the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs, absolutely blows me away.

Further more for one to insinuate that any criteria in any aspect of being on life support, underwater, takes precidents over the rest of it, makes me feel as If they are personaly elevating themselves and thier skills in an attempt to seek personal gratification and gratification only to those they deem are their equal.

If I have taken any of this out of context, please for give me and my inability to understand what has been written repetatively. People die in Caves and Caverns. Some is because of unforseen events, others because of pure stupidity. The same could be said of peoples mortality and the food that they consume. Dangers are everywhere, some more than others. It is up to the individual to ascertain.

If a cavern is open to OW certified divers there is a reason for it. If the dangers where so overwhelming, OW certified divers would not be allowed to enter the water with lights.

I personaly am content with this last post. I'll no longer make any attempts to defend my actions or dispute others perceptions of my actions. After all, in the begining I was asking for encouragment. Not, "you have no idea what you are doing, you have no concept of the 5 points of accident analysis as it partians to diving caves and caverns", "you have no business doing this" response I have received.

Thank you for virtually nothing.:smiley20:

ianr33
12-30-2007, 15:18
Would I be correct in assuming that in all of the "Open Water Safe" caverns somebody is making $$$ by allowing diving there?

in_cavediver
12-30-2007, 15:46
Would I be correct in assuming that in all of the "Open Water Safe" caverns somebody is making $$$ by allowing diving there?

Yep.

To my knowledge, the list in Florida is Blue Grotto, Ginnie, Vortex and Devils Den. In the case of Devils Den and Blue Grotto, there is a lot of OW diving. Ginnie allows OW divers in the Ballroom with lights but not near the devils system. Vortex is the worst in that they have full access to the cavern and a lighted guidline 300ft into the cave.

All of the 'public' sites require cave/cavern cert to dive. Orange Grove in peacock is sometimes open to OW only divers.

in_cavediver
12-30-2007, 16:03
everything about diving is really important not just certain select criteria[/b]. Non of it takes precedent over any of it. Without basic skills you have no foundation for advanced skills. Without one you can not have the other. Caves/Caverns have proven to be killers. So has open waterwater, Child Birth, Operating a Motor Vehicle as well as walking down the street.

The assumption made in this thread, that if someone has not taken an agency sanctified Pre Tech, Cave/Cavern course. 1)Is apparently ignorant to any of the critera of these courses. 2)has absolutely no understanding or comprehension of dangers that apply or could arrise. 3) does not have the personal ability to deal with many of the common and often fatal situations that could, can and does arise in that type of enviroment. 4)As this pertains to the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs, absolutely blows me away.

Further more for one to insinuate that any criteria in any aspect of being on life support, underwater, takes precidents over the rest of it, makes me feel as If they are personaly elevating themselves and thier skills in an attempt to seek personal gratification and gratification only to those they deem are their equal.

If I have taken any of this out of context, please for give me and my inability to understand what has been written repetatively. People die in Caves and Caverns. Some is because of unforseen events, others because of pure stupidity. The same could be said of peoples mortality and the food that they consume. Dangers are everywhere, some more than others. It is up to the individual to ascertain.

If a cavern is open to OW certified divers there is a reason for it. If the dangers where so overwhelming, OW certified divers would not be allowed to enter the water with lights.

I personaly am content with this last post. I'll no longer make any attempts to defend my actions or dispute others perceptions of my actions. After all, in the begining I was asking for encouragment. Not, "you have no idea what you are doing, you have no concept of the 5 points of accident analysis as it partians to diving caves and caverns", "you have no business doing this" response I have received.

Thank you for virtually nothing.:smiley20:

You may take what I said as nothing. The overriding theme I have preached is to get proper training for this environment. Others brough up accident analysis, which btw has training as the number 1 rule. Again, I am saying just take the class. Its not something to learn on your own. (very poor track record, something like 300+ dead.....).

Make no mistake, divers still die there. A google search brought up a couple events over the last year or two on the first page.

As for you other comments about what's important. Lets be blunt. Diving is general is safe enough for uncerted people to be escorted in groups on a 30'-40' dives (discover scuba diving). Given that, do you really thing caves/caverns are on the same par?

Take what you want but realize some environments are extremely unfriendly. Caves/caverns are right up there with decompression dives and complex wreck penetrations. The no lights rule (or even no diving rule) exists in all the public cave/cavern dive sites. Its only the commercial sites that allow OW divers in. (Think money might be a reason???)

I'll say it one last time - take the class.

Goober
12-30-2007, 16:26
everything about diving is really important not just certain select criteria[/b]. Non of it takes precedent over any of it. Without basic skills you have no foundation for advanced skills. Without one you can not have the other. Caves/Caverns have proven to be killers. So has open waterwater, Child Birth, Operating a Motor Vehicle as well as walking down the street.

The assumption made in this thread, that if someone has not taken an agency sanctified Pre Tech, Cave/Cavern course. 1)Is apparently ignorant to any of the critera of these courses. 2)has absolutely no understanding or comprehension of dangers that apply or could arrise. 3) does not have the personal ability to deal with many of the common and often fatal situations that could, can and does arise in that type of enviroment. 4)As this pertains to the Ballroom at Ginnie Springs, absolutely blows me away.

Further more for one to insinuate that any criteria in any aspect of being on life support, underwater, takes precidents over the rest of it, makes me feel as If they are personaly elevating themselves and thier skills in an attempt to seek personal gratification and gratification only to those they deem are their equal.

If I have taken any of this out of context, please for give me and my inability to understand what has been written repetatively. People die in Caves and Caverns. Some is because of unforseen events, others because of pure stupidity. The same could be said of peoples mortality and the food that they consume. Dangers are everywhere, some more than others. It is up to the individual to ascertain.

If a cavern is open to OW certified divers there is a reason for it. If the dangers where so overwhelming, OW certified divers would not be allowed to enter the water with lights.

I personaly am content with this last post. I'll no longer make any attempts to defend my actions or dispute others perceptions of my actions. After all, in the begining I was asking for encouragment. Not, "you have no idea what you are doing, you have no concept of the 5 points of accident analysis as it partians to diving caves and caverns", "you have no business doing this" response I have received.

Thank you for virtually nothing.:smiley20:

You may take what I said as nothing. The overriding theme I have preached is to get proper training for this environment. Others brough up accident analysis, which btw has training as the number 1 rule. Again, I am saying just take the class. Its not something to learn on your own. (very poor track record, something like 300+ dead.....).

Make no mistake, divers still die there. A google search brought up a couple events over the last year or two on the first page.

As for you other comments about what's important. Lets be blunt. Diving is general is safe enough for uncerted people to be escorted in groups on a 30'-40' dives (discover scuba diving). Given that, do you really thing caves/caverns are on the same par?

Take what you want but realize some environments are extremely unfriendly. Caves/caverns are right up there with decompression dives and complex wreck penetrations. The no lights rule (or even no diving rule) exists in all the public cave/cavern dive sites. Its only the commercial sites that allow OW divers in. (Think money might be a reason???)

I'll say it one last time - take the class.

No deaths since 1976, when your boy had the grate installed, mapped it and implemented the no light rule in the Devils system. If this public information is inacurate, my appologize. But here is the article read for yourself

CDNN :: Expert Cave Diver Helped Make Ginnie Springs Safe for Scuba Diving (http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s050730.html)

in_cavediver
12-30-2007, 18:48
No deaths since 1976, when your boy had the grate installed, mapped it and implemented the no light rule in the Devils system. If this public information is inacurate, my appologize. But here is the article read for yourself

CDNN :: Expert Cave Diver Helped Make Ginnie Springs Safe for Scuba Diving (http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s050730.html)

OK, its a near drowning but she was dead for a bit until CPR succeeded:

Near Drowning at Ginnie Springs - ScubaBoard (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/48925-near-drowning-ginnie-springs.html)

I was confused about the dead free diver in dogwood springs. I thought he lived and she died. Oh well.......

Dive-aholic
01-01-2008, 05:35
No deaths since 1976, when your boy had the grate installed, mapped it and implemented the no light rule in the Devils system. If this public information is inacurate, my appologize. But here is the article read for yourself

CDNN :: Expert Cave Diver Helped Make Ginnie Springs Safe for Scuba Diving (http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s050730.html)

Your source isn't the most respected. Actually, it's a very over-sensationalistic site. Kind of like the National Enquirer. There have been deaths in the Ballroom since the grate was put in place. And they have been OW divers. Do what you want...obviously you're going to. I will tell you that out of 6 deaths that happened in N. Florida this year, 2 were supposedly medical event under water, 1 was supposedly ox tox, 1 was supposedly pushing the limits, the other 2 were diving above their level of training, 1 of which was just a few feet past the cavern zone. Check out my website: Chipola Divers (http://www.chipoladivers.com), specifically the Diving Fresh Water Springs page. There are a couple of videos there you might want to take a look at. True, it's not Ginnie, but I have been beyond the cavern zone even in the Ginnie Ballroom.

ianr33
01-01-2008, 09:55
Well I dont have a dog in this fight but I am going to add my $.02 anyway.

Goober,I dont see any reason NOT to do a cavern course. Does not cost that much and it WILL improve your diving. It will also open up a host of other dive sites to you.

The only downside is that you might get hooked on Cavediving. !!

Dive-aholic
01-01-2008, 23:24
Well I dont have a dog in this fight but I am going to add my $.02 anyway.

Goober,I dont see any reason NOT to do a cavern course. Does not cost that much and it WILL improve your diving. It will also open up a host of other dive sites to you.

The only downside is that you might get hooked on Cavediving. !!

One reason not to do a cavern course now is not being ready for it. Anybody who takes a cavern course should have their buoyancy control in a horizontal position while taskloading near perfect. If you're not there, your not ready for cavern.

ianr33
01-02-2008, 09:34
<<One reason not to do a cavern course now is not being ready for it. Anybody who takes a cavern course should have their buoyancy control in a horizontal position while taskloading near perfect. If you're not there, your not ready for cavern.>>

Cant disagree with that.

Just to stir the pot though,if you are not ready for a cavern class then you should probably not be diving caverns. Even the "OW safe " version !

My position is that if your skills are good enough then do it properly and do the course. If your skills are not sufficient then stay out of overheads.

Mtrewyn
01-02-2008, 09:55
[quote=ianr33;114197

My position is that if your skills are good enough then do it properly and do the course. If your skills are not sufficient then stay out of overheads.[/quote]


I would have to agree with this statement.

Mycroft
01-02-2008, 17:12
No deaths since 1976, when your boy had the grate installed, mapped it and implemented the no light rule in the Devils system. If this public information is inacurate, my appologize. But here is the article read for yourself

CDNN :: Expert Cave Diver Helped Make Ginnie Springs Safe for Scuba Diving (http://www.cdnn.info/news/safety/s050730.html)

Goober, consider the source. CDNN is a known lieing website, that is guilty of plagurism and worse. They have many people that want their heads, and can't stand the light of day.

As far as most of us are concerned, if CDNN says it, it is a lie. Or the article is stolen from a reputable source and their name put on it. Don't support these scumbags by even clicking on their website.

As far as Ginnie Springs being safe, well there was a death of an OW diver in the Ear about 2 years ago. I PERSONALLY talked to the diver that recovered the body. The body was found 10 feet from the exit.

willardj
01-03-2008, 18:53
People thing the ballroom is safe but if you head to the bottom turn left you are out of the cavern zone. Dove there many times. Did my cavern class at Ginnie about a yr. ago and it was one of the best class'es I've ever taken. I would agree that you need to be comforable with and w/out a mask in perfect trim before the class. I'm heading back down there next month for my Basic cave class. Then another yr. before the next step. That seems th give me enough time to master all the skills for the next class.