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mm2002
05-19-2009, 18:26
I have a walter kidde AL80 that I bought used, and have been using for over a year. Fills have never been an issue. Two weeks ago, a dive op refused to fill it. They said there was some kind of recall due to neck cracking. The original hydro was in '92, and the most recent was in late 2005. It was recently vis'd, and I never thought anything about it. I know about the pre-89 luxfers, but does anyone know anything about these? I'm a little concerned now.

UCFKnightDiver
05-19-2009, 18:49
I think the walter kiddies are the same pre 1988 or so

mm2002
05-19-2009, 19:36
I think the walter kiddies are the same pre 1988 or so

That's what I was thinking, but still can't find anything to confirm either way. If there is something out there, I'd like to see what's up.

scubadiver888
05-19-2009, 21:15
I have a walter kidde AL80 that I bought used, and have been using for over a year. Fills have never been an issue. Two weeks ago, a dive op refused to fill it. They said there was some kind of recall due to neck cracking. The original hydro was in '92, and the most recent was in late 2005. It was recently vis'd, and I never thought anything about it. I know about the pre-89 luxfers, but does anyone know anything about these? I'm a little concerned now.

My dive op has a warning from our government authorities listing all the cylinders affected. Here is the list: Happy Divers (http://www.happydivers.ca/equipment/tanks/affected_tanks.shtml). It is mostly cylinders made with 6351-T6 alloy. Her list does include ALL Walter Kidde DOT-3AL scuba cylinders (with special permit SP7042). There is no date for the Walter Kidde cylinders. You'll have to check and see if there is an SP7042 stamped on the cylinder. If there is, most dive shops in Canada will not fill them.

captain
05-19-2009, 22:14
I have a walter kidde AL80 that I bought used, and have been using for over a year. Fills have never been an issue. Two weeks ago, a dive op refused to fill it. They said there was some kind of recall due to neck cracking. The original hydro was in '92, and the most recent was in late 2005. It was recently vis'd, and I never thought anything about it. I know about the pre-89 luxfers, but does anyone know anything about these? I'm a little concerned now.

My dive op has a warning from our government authorities listing all the cylinders affected. Here is the list: Happy Divers (http://www.happydivers.ca/equipment/tanks/affected_tanks.shtml). It is mostly cylinders made with 6351-T6 alloy. Her list does include ALL Walter Kidde DOT-3AL scuba cylinders (with special permit SP7042). There is no date for the Walter Kidde cylinders. You'll have to check and see if there is an SP7042 stamped on the cylinder. If there is, most dive shops in Canada will not fill them.

I think they need to change "All other tanks made before 1990 (except Catalina)" to all other ALUMINUM tanks made before 1990, because steel tanks are not subject to sustained load cracking.

mm2002
05-20-2009, 05:11
Thanks for the info. This one does have the 7042 stamped on it. As cheap as AL tanks are, I'm not going to chance it anymore.

cummings66
05-20-2009, 07:08
Other than the alloy it's made of, there is no current recall on it. Use it until it blows up. Seriously, many dive ops won't fill the older cylinders like that WK of yours and that's it. I assume it has had an eddy current test? It should have had that done at any rate. Maybe it was missing that notation and that's why they refused it as well.

baywatch106
05-20-2009, 08:11
You can now make a wind chime out of it now.

fire diver
05-20-2009, 08:20
Since the questio has been answered, I'm going to take this on a tangent.

I see these 6351 AL80s being sold on Ebay every single day. I don't understand it. Are there THAT many divers who don't know that almost all dive shops refuse to fill these anymore? $50-80 bucks plus ~$35 shipping for a useless tank? I have two of these. I got several years of use and now I am trying to figure whether to make lamps or get more and make the giant windchimes that I'm sure will annoy everyone (including the wife).

IndyDiver
05-20-2009, 08:33
Since the questio has been answered, I'm going to take this on a tangent.

I see these 6351 AL80s being sold on Ebay every single day. I don't understand it. Are there THAT many divers who don't know that almost all dive shops refuse to fill these anymore? $50-80 bucks plus ~$35 shipping for a useless tank? I have two of these. I got several years of use and now I am trying to figure whether to make lamps or get more and make the giant windchimes that I'm sure will annoy everyone (including the wife).

It is not even just a 6351 issue. I see more and more dive shops (2 in my area) that just have a blanket policy that they don't fill any AL tanks made before 1990. It saves them the trouble of traning the staff, is easy to post and enforce etc. I don't think I would bother with any old AL tank because the one time I wanted it for a "don't miss" dive would be the time I was at a shop that wouldn't fill it.

Damselfish
05-20-2009, 09:01
I see these 6351 AL80s being sold on Ebay every single day. I don't understand it. Are there THAT many divers who don't know that almost all dive shops refuse to fill these anymore? $50-80 bucks plus ~$35 shipping for a useless tank?
Maybe there are some people in the know looking for a sucker. But I'll bet a lot are being sold by people who don't dive locally or at all anymore. There's no reason for them to have kept up with this stuff; if they aren't reading magazines, surfing dive boards, or trying to get those tanks filled they will have no idea. And just like with other used dive gear, people often have a misguided idea of the value.

I was given a couple AL80s by someone who didn't dive in a long time and just wanted them out of her garage. Although she gave them to me, I'm pretty sure she thought they were a real catch and probably would have asked way too much if she'd wanted to bother selling them. As it turned out the dates were borderline but neither tank was bad alloy. But she was clueless about this stuff or other things about tanks.

scubadiver888
05-20-2009, 09:02
I have a walter kidde AL80 that I bought used, and have been using for over a year. Fills have never been an issue. Two weeks ago, a dive op refused to fill it. They said there was some kind of recall due to neck cracking. The original hydro was in '92, and the most recent was in late 2005. It was recently vis'd, and I never thought anything about it. I know about the pre-89 luxfers, but does anyone know anything about these? I'm a little concerned now.

My dive op has a warning from our government authorities listing all the cylinders affected. Here is the list: Happy Divers (http://www.happydivers.ca/equipment/tanks/affected_tanks.shtml). It is mostly cylinders made with 6351-T6 alloy. Her list does include ALL Walter Kidde DOT-3AL scuba cylinders (with special permit SP7042). There is no date for the Walter Kidde cylinders. You'll have to check and see if there is an SP7042 stamped on the cylinder. If there is, most dive shops in Canada will not fill them.

I think they need to change "All other tanks made before 1990 (except Catalina)" to all other ALUMINUM tanks made before 1990, because steel tanks are not subject to sustained load cracking.

The Happy Divers Den website has some layout issues. If you go to the main page and surf to the link I gave you, you'll see the article is under 'Aluminum Tanks'. I'll make a note to update the page as well for people who are going directly to it.

mm2002
05-20-2009, 17:49
Other than the alloy it's made of, there is no current recall on it. Use it until it blows up. Seriously, many dive ops won't fill the older cylinders like that WK of yours and that's it. I assume it has had an eddy current test? It should have had that done at any rate. Maybe it was missing that notation and that's why they refused it as well.

No, this one has never had the eddy current test. "Use it until it blows up?"......ummmmm....you've been in the water with me and this tank. I'm sure glad it didn't blow up then, or I'd have that guilt to live with.......wait a minute, dead people don't feel guilt......so I guess I'd still be ok! :smiley36:


You can now make a wind chime out of it now.

That would be more like a wind GONG....wouldn't it? :smiley36:
Seriously, I'm thinking more along the lines of cutting the top off and making a deep fryer out of it. How many catfish nuggets would fit in there, and how much oil would you need? Anyone tried this?

cruzan
05-20-2009, 17:57
Since the questio has been answered, I'm going to take this on a tangent.

I see these 6351 AL80s being sold on Ebay every single day. I don't understand it. Are there THAT many divers who don't know that almost all dive shops refuse to fill these anymore? $50-80 bucks plus ~$35 shipping for a useless tank? I have two of these. I got several years of use and now I am trying to figure whether to make lamps or get more and make the giant windchimes that I'm sure will annoy everyone (including the wife).

Get the extra tanks, I know of somebody in St Croix who made them into bar stools. I'm sure your wife will love them, recycling you know:smiley2:.

divinginn
05-20-2009, 22:08
I had a shop tell me this weekend, that they will not fill older steel 72s,I asked why and he told me they were prone to blowing up. I just let it go,I have never heard of one blowing,maybe if it was rusted almost completely through.

fire diver
05-20-2009, 23:27
I had a shop tell me this weekend, that they will not fill older steel 72s,I asked why and he told me they were prone to blowing up. I just let it go,I have never heard of one blowing,maybe if it was rusted almost completely through.

Oh please do tell what dive shop is THAT stupid!

ColdPass
05-21-2009, 11:35
I've got a couple of WK tanks. They passed eddy current testing and my shop still fills them. One's in the trunk of my car now. With the additional testing I figure that they're safe.

chilly willy
05-21-2009, 13:00
Since the questio has been answered, I'm going to take this on a tangent.

I see these 6351 AL80s being sold on Ebay every single day. I don't understand it. Are there THAT many divers who don't know that almost all dive shops refuse to fill these anymore? $50-80 bucks plus ~$35 shipping for a useless tank? I have two of these. I got several years of use and now I am trying to figure whether to make lamps or get more and make the giant windchimes that I'm sure will annoy everyone (including the wife).

It is not even just a 6351 issue. I see more and more dive shops (2 in my area) that just have a blanket policy that they don't fill any AL tanks made before 1990. It saves them the trouble of traning the staff, is easy to post and enforce etc. I don't think I would bother with any old AL tank because the one time I wanted it for a "don't miss" dive would be the time I was at a shop that wouldn't fill it.

There are a couple dive shops in SoCal that will not fill any AL80 tank older than 20 years, and one shop that wont fill an AL80 older than 15 years. This seems to be happening more and more.

Damselfish
05-21-2009, 14:57
I've also heard a number of times "all Walter Kiddie tanks are bad." And the dive shop I visit most often actually has a policy not to fill any WK tanks. I don't know if it's true or just a matter of convenience same as rules like "no tanks before '90." But it doesn't matter if it's true, if they won't fill them they won't fill them and it will at the least probably be an ongoing nuisance.

boat
05-22-2009, 20:06
Hope my two 1983 WK's don't blow up - they're sitting next to our newer car.

I'm kind of hoping one of them eventually fails an eddy test so I can buy an HP steel 100.

cummings66
05-22-2009, 21:40
As far as I know, WK only made cylinders of the suspect alloy, so yes they can say they won't fill any because they are all made of that alloy. Right? Who's to say for sure. I know that just because it passes the ECI does not mean it's safe to use. At least one well known dive shop had one come back as having passed, and it passed his visual and it let loose during a fill.

During my PSI course they suggested that fill ops spray the cylinder with soapy water because often you will find a leak while it's under partial pressure which seals up when it's full. I don't know if it's true or not, but it sounds good to me.

Honestly, I don't think I'd use one of the older cylinders now knowing what I know of them. I have used them in the past.

in_cavediver
05-23-2009, 10:31
As far as I know, WK only made cylinders of the suspect alloy, so yes they can say they won't fill any because they are all made of that alloy. Right? Who's to say for sure. I know that just because it passes the ECI does not mean it's safe to use. At least one well known dive shop had one come back as having passed, and it passed his visual and it let loose during a fill.

During my PSI course they suggested that fill ops spray the cylinder with soapy water because often you will find a leak while it's under partial pressure which seals up when it's full. I don't know if it's true or not, but it sounds good to me.

Honestly, I don't think I'd use one of the older cylinders now knowing what I know of them. I have used them in the past.

I'm with you on this although I do still occasionally still have to use the 6351 alloy in an SCBA application. (I am lobbying hard for a grant to get carbon fiber cylinders there but its not my money). They have around 10-15 of the 30 minute (45cft) luxfers.

mm2002
05-23-2009, 18:09
As far as I know, WK only made cylinders of the suspect alloy, so yes they can say they won't fill any because they are all made of that alloy. Right? Who's to say for sure. I know that just because it passes the ECI does not mean it's safe to use. At least one well known dive shop had one come back as having passed, and it passed his visual and it let loose during a fill.

During my PSI course they suggested that fill ops spray the cylinder with soapy water because often you will find a leak while it's under partial pressure which seals up when it's full. I don't know if it's true or not, but it sounds good to me.

Honestly, I don't think I'd use one of the older cylinders now knowing what I know of them. I have used them in the past.


Oh, I totally agree brother. As I said before, this tank will no longer be used or filled. AL80's are less than 150 bucks brand new. Certainly not enough dough to risk ones life (especially ones families life) .
I'm getting goosebumps thinking about all the times I've hauled this thing around in the back of the Suburban on a 95 degree day, with the kids in there. Screw that noise. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

nrembis
05-24-2009, 07:00
I see these 6351 AL80s being sold on Ebay every single day. I don't understand it. Are there THAT many divers who don't know that almost all dive shops refuse to fill these anymore? $50-80 bucks plus ~$35 shipping for a useless tank?
Maybe there are some people in the know looking for a sucker. But I'll bet a lot are being sold by people who don't dive locally or at all anymore. There's no reason for them to have kept up with this stuff; if they aren't reading magazines, surfing dive boards, or trying to get those tanks filled they will have no idea. And just like with other used dive gear, people often have a misguided idea of the value.

I was given a couple AL80s by someone who didn't dive in a long time and just wanted them out of her garage. Although she gave them to me, I'm pretty sure she thought they were a real catch and probably would have asked way too much if she'd wanted to bother selling them. As it turned out the dates were borderline but neither tank was bad alloy. But she was clueless about this stuff or other things about tanks.

I would guess most of the buyers of those tanks are the paintballing community and I really doubt the dude on the compressor at many paintball fields could care less what is marked on the tank, vis, last hydro....most of the ones I see on craigslist here locally are from the paintball crowd, havent been hydroed in 10 years yet it was just filled....hmm

navyhmc
05-24-2009, 07:21
I see these 6351 AL80s being sold on Ebay every single day. I don't understand it. Are there THAT many divers who don't know that almost all dive shops refuse to fill these anymore? $50-80 bucks plus ~$35 shipping for a useless tank?
Maybe there are some people in the know looking for a sucker. But I'll bet a lot are being sold by people who don't dive locally or at all anymore. There's no reason for them to have kept up with this stuff; if they aren't reading magazines, surfing dive boards, or trying to get those tanks filled they will have no idea. And just like with other used dive gear, people often have a misguided idea of the value.

I was given a couple AL80s by someone who didn't dive in a long time and just wanted them out of her garage. Although she gave them to me, I'm pretty sure she thought they were a real catch and probably would have asked way too much if she'd wanted to bother selling them. As it turned out the dates were borderline but neither tank was bad alloy. But she was clueless about this stuff or other things about tanks.

I would guess most of the buyers of those tanks are the paintballing community and I really doubt the dude on the compressor at many paintball fields could care less what is marked on the tank, vis, last hydro....most of the ones I see on craigslist here locally are from the paintball crowd, havent been hydroed in 10 years yet it was just filled....hmm

You are probably more right than I would like to think nrembis. The problem is that these guys don't think about the fact that they are in violation of several laws governing the transport of compressed gas cylinders. I am waiting with dreaded anticipation when a pain ball shop has an explosive SLC failure on an untested/out of hydro/out if EIP-Eddy Current tank.

chilly willy
05-24-2009, 08:43
Scary stuff indeed, my kid has a couple of friends that are into the paintball thing and have old dive tanks for refilling their guns. I recently saw one and it had a 3 yr expired hydro and he was getting it filled regularly. I told him he was playing with fire so sent it in and it FAILED. He was not happy to begin with until he realized how much danger he was in.

mm2002
05-24-2009, 19:50
Scary stuff indeed, my kid has a couple of friends that are into the paintball thing and have old dive tanks for refilling their guns. I recently saw one and it had a 3 yr expired hydro and he was getting it filled regularly. I told him he was playing with fire so sent it in and it FAILED. He was not happy to begin with until he realized how much danger he was in.


I'm disturbed by the combo scuba/paintball shops. We have one here, and the last time I took my tanks in for fills, their head "paintball tech" royally fukked up my zeagle razor pony reg. He's like maybe 16 yrs old, and had no clue about how to do it, but he tried. When I went in to pick up my tanks, he told me that they tried but couldn't get it (the pony) filled. The other "regular" tanks were fine. I took the pony back to the fill station myself, and tried to fill it. I found that they'd somehow jammed the fill adapter, and blew out the o-ring on the LP housing. I was pissed, but refused to deal with it any longer with this "kid". The next day, I called the store manager, and brought the tank back in. He fixed the o-ring, and filled the pony, no problem, no charge. I will no longer take any of my scuba gear to a shop who has a bunch of paintball kid dumbasses working on my gear. Screw that. Stupid sh!t games like paintball, and life support equipment such as SCUBA should not be mixed into the same recipe. Why do shops do that???.........yes I know.......$$$$$$$$$$$$........Fukk that.

navyhmc
05-24-2009, 20:03
I've been in a paint ball shop once...Once! I could have sworn the kid behind the counter asked "Do you want fries with that?" The only reason I went in was a friend plays PB and needed a few things. I definitely do not know the PB lingo.

cummings66
05-25-2009, 13:26
these guys don't think about the fact that they are in violation of several laws governing the transport of compressed gas cylinders.

From what I was told during a course, there is no law that requires personally owned cylinders to either be visually inspected or hydrostaticaly tested. The CFR establishes the regulations governing testing and transportation of cylinders used in interstate commerce and it does not apply to personally owned scuba cylinders. The CFR has the force of law, but it is not law. Of course, that's lawyer talk, you'd still get fined by the DOT if they pulled you over and you had 600lbs of cylinders in your truck that were not kosher. Just because it's not a law doesn't mean the won't wack you with it just the same.

Of course, no shop would ever fill said cylinders without those conditions being satisfied, and that's partly due to the provision in the CFR for the scuba industry to self regulate itself.

You could say that paintball shops and most scuba shops do not follow 49 CFR 172 which requires HAZMAT training for their employees within 90 days of hiring. Of course it's not law, but it could be used against a shop if something were to go south on them, such as an older alloy cylinders losing it's structural integrity. You can smell the lawyers circling on that one.

ColdPass
05-26-2009, 08:00
At 87F a CO2 tank will be below 1100 psi, where as air tanks are filled to 3000 psi. So there is a bit larger margin of safety for the paintball crowd. Of course if they completely liquid fill the cylinder then there could be trouble, as you're dealing with the coefficient of expansion instead of vapor pressure.

nrembis
05-26-2009, 08:40
At 87F a CO2 tank will be below 1100 psi, where as air tanks are filled to 3000 psi. So there is a bit larger margin of safety for the paintball crowd. Of course if they completely liquid fill the cylinder then there could be trouble, as you're dealing with the coefficient of expansion instead of vapor pressure.

and that may very well be, we are not talking about CO2 tanks, were talking about scuba tanks being used by the paintball crowd for transfilling the small air tanks they use(not the CO2 ones), out of hydro and no inspections being done, so there is NO margin of safety whatsoever.

ColdPass
05-26-2009, 11:56
Ah. The only paintball I've done was with CO2. Do the paintballers change out the valve? I'd hate to buy a used tank and take a deep breath of nitrogen or CO2. That would be unfortunate.

scubadiver888
05-26-2009, 14:09
Ah. The only paintball I've done was with CO2. Do the paintballers change out the valve? I'd hate to buy a used tank and take a deep breath of nitrogen or CO2. That would be unfortunate.

Paintballers use a 'fill station' adapter on the regular scuba valve. It looks like they took the gauge scuba shops use to check the pressure on a tank and converted it to something which would fill their equipment.

in_cavediver
05-26-2009, 16:13
Ah. The only paintball I've done was with CO2. Do the paintballers change out the valve? I'd hate to buy a used tank and take a deep breath of nitrogen or CO2. That would be unfortunate.

They use air in scuba tanks because its cheap.

navyhmc
05-26-2009, 16:36
Ah. The only paintball I've done was with CO2. Do the paintballers change out the valve? I'd hate to buy a used tank and take a deep breath of nitrogen or CO2. That would be unfortunate.
Back in the "OLD" days, when the BC was nothing more than a Mae West with a inflator hose (no power inflator) there was a 40gr CO2 cartridge for emergencies. In class, one was accidently activated. Filled the vest right up! The instrutor let all of us that wanted to get a whiff of near 100% CO2. No way you'll get even a 1/4 breath of CO2 much less a full breath! Nitrogen, I don't know about, but no way with CO2.

WD8CDH
05-29-2009, 14:13
Even though the painballers call it nitro, it's usually just high pressure air. Most likely not tested for breathing quality but still air.

mm2002
05-29-2009, 18:18
Even though the painballers call it nitro, it's usually just high pressure air. Most likely not tested for breathing quality but still air.


OK, I just gotta know....what is a "painballer"?
That just sounds like a sport that I wouldn't be the least bit interested in, but I'm curious. What is it exactly that you're doing when you go pain balling?
Or do I even want to know? :smiley5:

nrembis
05-30-2009, 06:57
Even though the painballers call it nitro, it's usually just high pressure air. Most likely not tested for breathing quality but still air.


OK, I just gotta know....what is a "painballer"?
That just sounds like a sport that I wouldn't be the least bit interested in, but I'm curious. What is it exactly that you're doing when you go pain balling?
Or do I even want to know? :smiley5:

My 2 boys are into the paintball thing and I decided to try it a couple years ago, needless to say they both took that opportunity to gang up on old dad and I was welted up pretty bad, my legs, sides and back were bruised up for about a week, wasnt like I could dodge 400 paint balls coming at me from 2 directions.....thats my version of a "painballer"........:smilie39:

mm2002
05-30-2009, 17:29
My 2 boys are into the paintball thing and I decided to try it a couple years ago, needless to say they both took that opportunity to gang up on old dad and I was welted up pretty bad, my legs, sides and back were bruised up for about a week, wasnt like I could dodge 400 paint balls coming at me from 2 directions.....thats my version of a "painballer"........:smilie39:


Fair enough. That's the G rated version compared to what I had in my mind. :smiley36:
Good thing though. Keep the forum a clean friendly family place. :smiley20: :smiley2:

navyhmc
05-30-2009, 22:06
Even though the painballers call it nitro, it's usually just high pressure air. Most likely not tested for breathing quality but still air.


OK, I just gotta know....what is a "painballer"?
That just sounds like a sport that I wouldn't be the least bit interested in, but I'm curious. What is it exactly that you're doing when you go pain balling?
Or do I even want to know? :smiley5:

I know it's a misspelling, but your "pain baller" is closer to a good description. :smiley20: