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retire2disney
07-12-2007, 01:09
We (wife and I) will be getting certified within the next month or so. My question is what organization (padi,naui,ssi etc) did you get for your open water cert? and why? is one better than the other? if I get ow through one can I go to another for aow or nitrox? for the area that we are in we can choose either padi or naui. I think padi is more recoginized but I want to know which one has the best course material and skills development? Thanks for all the help with this.

ertechsg
07-12-2007, 01:21
It is about the instructor not the organization. And yes you can go through diffferant agencies. I did OW withssi an AOW with naui.

retire2disney
07-12-2007, 02:07
I guess I should have asked that how can you tell a good instructor http://www.scubatoys.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.giffrom a not so good http://www.scubatoys.com/forum/smileys/smiley13.gifinstructor.

CompuDude
07-12-2007, 02:07
It's all about the instructors.

PADI generally has the prettiest materials.

But the instructor is far more important than the agency at this level.

And yes, all agencies recognize each other's certs at the OW and AOW levels. and Nitrox certs.

Vercingetorix
07-13-2007, 13:28
If you want to see PADI vs NAUI threads, there are a bunch on scubaboard.com. The arguments have been hashed and rehashed.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>There are several thread there as well about "what is a good instructor?" In summary, it comes down to your gut feeling; which one do you feel confidence? Do you feel like one of a number, or does the instructor really care about your experience in this foreign, underwater world? Ask questions.</DIV>

cummings66
07-13-2007, 13:35
I'd say the way to get a good instructor is how I found my tech instructor. Find divers, a bunch of them who've been diving for a while and are at least rescue certified. Ask them who they feel has a good OW class.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>As to agencies, on paper there are some better than others, but in real life it really does come down to the instructor and that's why you ask around.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>There's no way a person who's not a diver could ever tell if an instructor knew his stuff, no background to compare to.</DIV>

ertechsg
07-13-2007, 14:44
Alot has to do with what you plan to do with your cert. strickly vacation dive 2x a year, tech dive(Doria)teach. Talk to local friend, LDSthey all get you to the same place. Once you hooked and have spent all youtime and money planning where to dive next it really doen't matter how you got there.PARADISE,the only regret you will have is not being able to spend more time underwater.

cummings66
07-13-2007, 15:17
Look for an instructor that dives as well, not just one that teaches. If they love it they tend to be a better instructor rather than some cookie cutter.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I do not believe any ole shop can get you there. I have seen some divers that I KNOW will eventually be one of those we read about having had some accident that claimed their lives. They don't know what they don't know because the shop turned out a diver that thought the training they got was great and no more was needed.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>My instructor for OW made you realize it was but the tip of the iceberg and there was lots more to learn, and boy ain't that the truth. No matter where you are in diving you have got room to improve, well most of us. Some of my buddies I'd wonder what they could do better they're so good...</DIV>

Foo2
07-15-2007, 01:23
Be sure to pick a dive instructor that you are COMFORTABLE with and makes you feel at ease! My instructor was fantastic (a ST instructor of course!) He made me feel totally comfortable and answered EVERY question I had whether it was a dumb one or not. I know....the only dumb question is the one that is not asked....but still. There are still a lot of dumb questions out there IMOHO.
<DIV>Foo2</DIV>

Lucky(AR)
07-15-2007, 01:27
PADI for me i just ask around and most of our local dive shops ofered padi i have only taking my open water taking advanced next month but have really been pleased with padi and my instructor

Joew
07-15-2007, 01:47
If you can, spend some time talking to potential instructors at the shop. Maybe even buy them a beer ( most instructors and DMs won't turn down free food or drink). If you get along well with them, you'll probably enjoy taking their class. You should also try to get a feel for how much they like their job. You want an instructor that takes their work seriously, but who will still make the course fun.

msprzeor
07-15-2007, 12:40
I agree that you should find an instructor that you are comfortable with ... more importantly, though, is that you should find one that doesn't just pass everyone along. Too many shops pass everyone because they don't want to lose money. The OW and nitrox courses we took from an LDS showed us a lot of that ... people weren't prepared for class and didn't understand the information and they still got certified. Those students not only wasted our learning time filling out their reviews during class, but they also should not have been certified at that time - I wouldn't be their buddy.
My husband and I since have used independent instructors - because they aren't bound to a shop's quotas. They both have careers and are instructors because they love it ... not to make money. They have high expectations - if you don't have your knowledge reviews done - they'll postpone the class/dive until they're done, and they take the time to make sure you are completely comfortable with every skill. If that doesn't happen, they'll offer other solutions (ie, instead of getting OW certified - being Scuba Diver certified so you continue to work with a professional until you master the skills) and they will continue to work with you until you get it. They also maintain very small ratios so you get a lot of their attention.
You need to find an instructor that will make you a good, safe, responsible diver and who doesn't just certify you with a dozen others in one weekend to get their money.

creggur
07-15-2007, 15:20
My husband and I since have used independent instructors - because they aren't bound to a shop's quotas. They both have careers and are instructors because they love it ... not to make money. They have high expectations - if you don't have your knowledge reviews done - they'll postpone the class/dive until they're done, and they take the time to make sure you are completely comfortable with every skill. If that doesn't happen, they'll offer other solutions (ie, instead of getting OW certified - being Scuba Diver certified so you continue to work with a professional until you master the skills) and they will continue to work with you until you get it. They also maintain very small ratios so you get a lot of their attention.



I would second this.. If you have the means, and it's available, an independant instructor, or private/semi-private classes.. My wife and I are in the midst of this right now...

We signed up for private lesson with an LDS, and we lucked up on the first instructor that we met with... Jim is a retired Navy guy who plays golf all day, and teaches SCUBA when he wants to. I'm not saying anything bad about young instructors, but Jim went to strictly private lessons because he said the larger classes are not as fun to teach, and he enjoys giving personal attention to his students.. There is nothing wrong with making a living teaching SCUBA, but it is somewhat comforting to know that my instructor is there because he wants to be, and isn't trying to push me through to get to his next class to meet a quota....YMMV

retire2disney
07-15-2007, 19:01
My husband and I since have used independent instructors - because they aren't bound to a shop's quotas. They both have careers and are instructors because they love it ... not to make money. They have high expectations - if you don't have your knowledge reviews done - they'll postpone the class/dive until they're done, and they take the time to make sure you are completely comfortable with every skill. If that doesn't happen, they'll offer other solutions (ie, instead of getting OW certified - being Scuba Diver certified so you continue to work with a professional until you master the skills) and they will continue to work with you until you get it. They also maintain very small ratios so you get a lot of their attention.


I would second this.. If you have the means, and it's available, an independant instructor, or private/semi-private classes.. My wife and I are in the midst of this right now...

We signed up for private lesson with an LDS, and we lucked up on the first instructor that we met with... Jim is a retired Navy guy who plays golf all day, and teaches SCUBA when he wants to. I'm not saying anything bad about young instructors, but Jim went to strictly private lessons because he said the larger classes are not as fun to teach, and he enjoys giving personal attention to his students.. There is nothing wrong with making a living teaching SCUBA, but it is somewhat comforting to know that my instructor is there because he wants to be, and isn't trying to push me through to get to his next class to meet a quota....YMMV

<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>So how did you get connected with a private instructor. I have looked in the phone book and the only ones I see are LDS? Can I go to Padi or Naui and ask them for a list of individualls that are private instructor? Thanks for all of the help to everyone.</DIV>

msprzeor
07-15-2007, 21:57
We found Rob & Jen (www.southwestscuba.com) through scubaboard - recommendations as well as talking to Rob. Where do you live? I'd imagine someone on here would have a good recommendation for your area.

retire2disney
07-16-2007, 00:32
We found Rob &amp; Jen (www.southwestscuba.com) through scubaboard - recommendations as well as talking to Rob. Where do you live? I'd imagine someone on here would have a good recommendation for your area.
<DIV>Southwest coast florida port charlotte area</DIV>

texdiveguy
07-16-2007, 00:36
We (wife and I) will be getting certified within the next month or so. My question is what organization (padi,naui,ssi etc) did you get for your open water cert? and why? is one better than the other? if I get ow through one can I go to another for aow or nitrox? for the area that we are in we can choose either padi or naui. I think padi is more recoginized but I want to know which one has the best course material and skills development? Thanks for all the help with this.

PADI
scuba shop/instructors
no
yes
all are good
Have fun!!

creggur
07-16-2007, 15:32
<div></div>
<div>So how did you get connected with a private instructor. I have looked in the phone book and the only ones I see are LDS? Can I go to Padi or Naui and ask them for a list of individualls that are private instructor? Thanks for all of the help to everyone.</div>

We signed up for private lessons through a NAUI LDS. They gave us the course material/home study to work on. Told us in about a week an instructor would contact us to schedule lessons. Told us to meet and talk to the instructor, and if we liked him to move forward, if we didn't like him tell them why, and they would hook us up with another one that fit more what we were looking for. We really just got lucky because Jim was great, we couldn't have asked for a better fit...
Good Luck

msprzeor
07-16-2007, 21:20
Rob & Jen are actually moving to Florida this fall - talk to Rob ... his name is Dive-aholic ... they're awesome to work with ... we're very sad they are leaving Arizona!!!

cummings66
07-16-2007, 22:38
I did Padi for my OW, NASE for AOW, Padi for Nitrox, NASE for drysuit, Padi for Rescue and probably IANTD for Advanced Nitrox/Deco.

downunder
07-17-2007, 22:47
I had a hard time with this recently. Although I have been certified for 10 years, I recently had the opportunity to get my son (age 10) and niece (age 15) certified. We went to a LDS in Brighton Michigan and had a HORRIBLE experience. The instructor was not only rude and had an ego the size of Texas, but he almost caused SERIOUS injury to my niece! While at 12' in the pool, the class had been down there for about 15 minutes when during a mask exercise, my niece gave the low air sign. Then immediatley gave the out of air sign. The instructor ignored the signs and continued to try to get her to do the exercise. As she struggled, my son who was also at the bottom tried to offer his alt reg, but the instructor pushed him away. At this point, she grabbed his mask to pull it off as she sprung up of air gasping and in dire stress. He then popped up. I was on the top side of the pool just waiting as I noticed she was in trouble (along with two other instructors including the owner of the dive shop and a dive master). The instructor then popped up and I asked him what the @#%&amp;!! was going on. He replied (yes, in front of the other professionals including the LDS owner) "I was trying to get her to do this exercise and I didn't believe that she was out of air - thought she was just using that as an excuse to not do it..." OMG! I yelled at him "You ALWAYS take air signs seriously - give them air, take them up, and THEN figure out what the problem is!!!" It turns out that they didn't start with a full tank of air which really made me mad about their pre-dive checks and regular air checks while diving!
<DIV>So, where am I going with this? I called PADI and asked - how can I do research from their organization to discover if there has been any complaints? There is no way. Sure would be nice if instructors had a rating like eBay! You could log on to PADI and rate the instructor with a +,- or neutral with a one liner comment. I was going to make a complaint but it is obvious that is will be sent to deaf ears. They say that the complaints are followed up on, but always kept secret. I lost a lot of respect for them with that. After all that, I found that although he representated himself in the classroom as 'insturctor', he was a dive master. The instructor was in the pool at the time, but not observing the activities that the dive master was doing....!!!</DIV>

Cichlid
07-17-2007, 22:51
Wow, that is scary! My oldest is 3 now, I imagine he will get certified
at 10 or so. I can't even think about how pissed I would be if that
happened to us.

downunder
07-17-2007, 23:43
Awwwww.... 3! I remember those days http://www.scubatoys.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif! Maybe you can strap a pony on his back.... ah, nevermind - just wait!!!!

Cichlid
07-17-2007, 23:52
Right now it's grrrrrr 3! smileys/smiley7.gif



smileys/smiley2.gif



That's him.

&lt;-------------------

msprzeor
07-18-2007, 12:26
how did the shop owner reply to that situation since he was there to witness it?

downunder
07-18-2007, 12:43
The shop owner was a lady (husband wife team). I guess I'm undecided in general to my feelings. She ended the class for the day for Carissa and then we talked the next day. I was very concerned if these things were not done properly, what else...??? The owner did then schedule a complete class with Carissa and Alex (my son) to 'make-up' for the problem. That was a positive. The negative is that I felt the dive master should have been fired. In the class, there was another guy who complained on how rude he was too. Carissa did need a little more hand-holding as she is in general unsure of herself (see posting http://www.scubatoys.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=570&amp;PID=5189 (http://www.scubatoys.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=570&PID=5189)) The worst thing was when we got the gear for the open water dives, he was in the store working there. Very tense as were were given the impression he wouldn't be around anymore.
<DIV></DIV>The owner did say that she is 'taking care' of it. I will never know what that means. The shop has regular wed night dives that we would have liked to participate with, but now are too afraid that he might show up. I also own a business (er, I think it ownes me!) and if I got word that an employee was that rude, misrepresenting themself, then the 'incidient', there is no question he would be f i r e d!
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>That is what initially brought me to ST. I had a problem in the past with a LDS going out of business (my original gear purchase), then this incident... so my son and I went searching for a better alternative to gear instead of shopping there. We are glad we did - especially finding this forum!</DIV>

cummings66
07-18-2007, 18:32
DM's commonly assist instructors, but I've never been aware of any having an ego that big. IMO I'd have been all over him in a heartbeat, might have even dove in the pool to deal with him in the first place.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I'd agree, that DM needs to be fired and never work again.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>However, don't forgo the wed night dives on the assumption he may show up, a DM that's not training is nobody and he doesn't hold any powers outside of class. Neither does an instructor for that matter, but nothing says he's going to buddy up with them anyhow. Carissa and Alex would buddy themselves together and that's that. Once certified they don't need handholding for basic diving, assuming they're well trained.</DIV>

przeor
07-21-2007, 04:26
Well you can't do any better than ST, so at least you'll be set for now! What shop does this DM work at? I would make sure others are aware of what happened and where, you might help someone else avoid that shop and a similar-or worse ending experience.

Judestudio
07-21-2007, 07:19
Man, that's one scary start! I hope Carissa take that as an experience and move on with it. Gee, I agree that DM should be fired over and over! And what's with the shop owner letting an unqualified DM handle a class unsupervised (well, the instructor had no control in the situation, right?)?!!

CompuDude
07-21-2007, 07:26
Man, that's one scary start! I hope Carissa take that as an experience and move on with it. Gee, I agree that DM should be fired over and over! And what's with the shop owner letting an unqualified DM handle a class unsupervised (well, the instructor had no control in the situation, right?)?!!

That last is a tougher call. DMs are allowed (in fact they are specifically trained) to work as assistants in classes specifically so they can help out by demoing skills, keeping an eye on things, etc. It is a common and legitimate use of a DM.

Representing himself as an instructor rather than DM is harder to prove or approve, however. But as long as the instructor was present, the DM was merely assisting, there's nothing wrong or even unusual about that.

What was wrong and unusual is that this person was apparently a jerk who needed a lot more closely monitored time before he could be trusted with students. And that has no bearing on whether or not he was a DM... just that he was an inadequately-trained (pursuant to his undeserved title) jerk.

downunder
07-21-2007, 08:44
Yeah, I put a lot on the shop owner, but I put more on the Instructor. He is the one at the bottom with the DM and should be observing what is going on. Remember, she ran out of air in less than 15 minutes. Where was the instructor to observe air checks??? Although the DM was WAY out of line for not giving her air, the instructor has a lot to blame too. (Too bad, because he actually had a really nice personality!).
<DIV>It still goes back to the main topic about finding a good instructor. It makes me mad that PADI keeps these incidents a secret. Sure, I can see false things being brought to them, but they should still investigate and report!</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Yeah, Carissa and Alex both learned from it and moved on!</DIV>

ScubaToys Larry
07-21-2007, 08:51
That last is a tougher call. DMs are allowed (in fact they are specifically trained) to work as assistants in classes specifically so they can help out by demoing skills, keeping an eye on things, etc. It is a common and legitimate use of a DM.



Unless they have changed the rules, however, DM's are not allowed to be the first one teaching new skills to students. So if an instructor has done a BC remove and replace, as an example, and evaluated the students ability to do it, then a DM can have them repeat the skill... but if it was the first time doing a new skill, the instructor is supposed to perform the skill and evaluation of the students ability before handing them off to a DM for repetition exercises.

Judestudio
07-21-2007, 15:22
That last is a tougher call. DMs are allowed (in fact they are specifically trained) to work as assistants in classes specifically so they can help out by demoing skills, keeping an eye on things, etc. It is a common and legitimate use of a DM.

Representing himself as an instructor rather than DM is harder to prove or approve, however. But as long as the instructor was present, the DM was merely assisting, there's nothing wrong or even unusual about that.

What was wrong and unusual is that this person was apparently a jerk who needed a lot more closely monitored time before he could be trusted with students. And that has no bearing on whether or not he was a DM... just that he was an inadequately-trained (pursuant to his undeserved title) jerk.

I remember when we did our OW, we had a DM assisting the instructor too, but he was there MERELY to assist. The instructor did most of the talking, led the pack, and told the DM to hang behind us all the time so that they can keep a close eye on all of us and that we should always swim between instructor and DM. That's why I am so surprised to hear the DM was giving out instructions and teaching skills all by himself!

CompuDude
07-21-2007, 17:23
That last is a tougher call. DMs are allowed (in fact they are specifically trained) to work as assistants in classes specifically so they can help out by demoing skills, keeping an eye on things, etc. It is a common and legitimate use of a DM.



Unless they have changed the rules, however, DM's are not allowed to be the first one teaching new skills to students. So if an instructor has done a BC remove and replace, as an example, and evaluated the students ability to do it, then a DM can have them repeat the skill... but if it was the first time doing a new skill, the instructor is supposed to perform the skill and evaluation of the students ability before handing them off to a DM for repetition exercises.

You're correct on that. Was the DM teaching them the skill directly? I had not seen that in the story. If that's the case, then yes, there was a clear violation of standards.