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skdvr
08-29-2007, 21:21
Well my wife and I found out today that the only way that we are going to be able to have children is to do Invitro Fertilization. So we have made the decision to go that route. We have been trying to have a baby for a little over a year and a half with no luck. Come to find out that I have an extremely low sperm count and this is going to be the only way for us to have a baby. Well there is a chance that we could still have one naturally but highly unlikely. I was just curious if any of you out there have done it and can offer any suggestions for her or I to do, or to ask about. This will definitely put a damper on buying any new equipment for a while since none of this will be covered by insurance and we will be looking at about a $15,000.00 bill. I was joking with her tonight saying that this is just her way of keeping me from buying a drysuit :smiley2::smiley19:. We are both perfectly happy just to be able to have a baby, and are excited about getting this started. Thanks in advance for any advice that may be passed along.

Phil

TommyB
08-29-2007, 21:26
We did the same route-
approx 15 to 20k per try.
after 4 times, sh just said to heck with this.

So we now have dogs and expensive hobbies instead-

Capt Hook
08-29-2007, 21:38
Hope I'm not speaking up where I don't belong, years ago, before all the science stuff, my folk were told they would never have kids, lo and behold, 6 yrs. later here I came.

scuba Widow
08-29-2007, 21:40
I want to wish you a lot of luck...keep your chins up...I know what it feels like to want children and not be able to...I do have a child, she is a product of a previous relationship of finflippers, but she is still my daughter. I thought that I would never have the joy and then we got together when she was 13 and I got to "enjoy" the teens(it's not what it is cracked up to be). Remember that kids are not the most in important thing in marriage and that infertility can only separate you two if you let it.

Foo2
08-29-2007, 21:46
I just wanted to tell you that I'm sorry that you are having to go that but I'm happy that you guys have an avenue to have a baby. I personally have not gone through this, I have had a couple of friends that have. The only thing that I can tell you is that your wife will need lots of support through this time. The hormone treatments are pretty intense. Just the fact that you are looking for advice, it looks like you are going to do great!

dmdoss
08-29-2007, 22:23
My wife's aunt went through this. And after several tries it didn't work either.

skdvr
08-30-2007, 07:39
Well for our age group we are looking at just over 50% chance of having a baby. I would like to see the numbers better than that, but we have to give it a shot. I know that her hormones are going to go crazy while whe is on the drugs so I will keep that in mind when she is screaming at me one moment and then crying the next :). I will update this too once we actually start everything. We will hopefully start in the next few months, once we figure out financing.

Thanks
Phil

Zenagirl
08-30-2007, 07:43
We were faced with exactly the same situation and decided not to go through with the fertility treatments. Our odds were even lower than the average couple due to both of us having issues, so we felt that having a baby wasn't meant to be for us.

Like ntburchf we have dogs and expensive hobbies, and are very happy to travel together and enjoy our lives as a couple.

I wish you GOOD LUCK AND FORTUNE in your quest and hope we hear you were successful on the first try.

Vercingetorix
08-30-2007, 08:02
Bless skdvr and ntburchf for trying.

Skdvr, I'm certain you and the missus have discussed this: adoption.

Not at this time, but maybe if invitro doesn't work? So many children need loving homes. The fact that you are willing to go to this expense and trouble is an indicator that a child, adopted or not, will be wanted and loved.

Texas Girl
08-30-2007, 08:26
I tried it, but was in a much lower positive outcome group. It didn't work, and we adopted a wonderful little girl.

dallasdivergirl
08-30-2007, 08:50
Good luck with what ever route that you take. I am sure you will be great parents.

yankeefan21
08-30-2007, 10:30
I tried it, but was in a much lower positive outcome group. It didn't work, and we adopted a wonderful little girl.
I didn't want to come in here and be Johnny Raincloud so now that the Adoption option has been introduced, that really is another amazing opportunity. Obviously, best of luck with the invitro. However, it is certainly not a guarantee. If it isnít meant to be, then I hope you do consider adoption. This is something my wife and I are discussing long and hard.

skdvr
08-30-2007, 10:48
Yes adoption has come up and we are both fine with it. We both wanted to try to have our own baby first and then if that does not work out (which hopefully it will) then we will discuss adoption again and see where we would like to go.

We already have a dog and both have expensive hobbies Scuba, Mountain Biking, Skydiving (not for years though), Hunting. So I think that we have that covered.

Thanks again for the kind words...

Phil

Hemlon
08-30-2007, 10:53
May you have the best of luck, Phil.

DUnder
08-30-2007, 11:29
Good luck in your upcoming invitro. Children can be the biggest joy in your life.

Osprey
08-30-2007, 11:58
I'm glad you at least have a way to help you conceive, I wish the best of luck! If not, I am glad to know you are looking to adopt (possibly). One way or another, I am sure you'll end up a happy family :)

kevinj1
08-30-2007, 12:59
Phil---So, you don't have a ton of little soldiers--no big deal. I am just soo happy to hear people seeking alternative routes to have a child. I wish you the best of luck, and will keep you in my prayers.
I broke my neck 3 years ago and currently live in a wheelchair. So far, everything "down there" seems to be in working order--but Invitro might be something I will have to look at in the future.
I think I am going to be asking you some questions soon.
Again, best of luck,
Kevin...

skdvr
08-30-2007, 13:00
Feel free to ask away...

Phil

Harshal
08-30-2007, 13:11
I don't know much about it, (single yet) but I wish both of you all the luck and hope the outcome is happy for both of you.

creggur
08-30-2007, 14:17
I have friends that went through this, they tried three times on the third one it took.. It's not an easy road ahead.. Just be as supportive as you can of each other!!

GOOD LUCK!!!!

savannahbell
08-30-2007, 18:45
Our prayers are with you guys. It's not an easy road to go down at all. You will have to learn to be very patient with your wife as her
hormones are going every which way but normal. We tried a few different things about 10 years ago but it never took. We then decided that if it was going to happen then it would happen. We tried for 6 years and now we have a 5 year old son that is our angel. We can not have anymore since then but would love to look into Adoption on day and see where that goes. Again the best of luck and keep us all posted on everything.

Charlotte Smith
08-30-2007, 19:00
My husband and I tried it but it didn't work.....he had the same problem as yourself and we finally just gave in to the fact that if it is meant to be it will happen.......If it is meant to be for you...it will happen naturally or with in-vitro...just keep loving each other as much as you do now and know that whatever happens....you will ALWAYS have each other...

Texas Girl
08-30-2007, 19:04
I agree with what others have read, the hormones play havoc with emotions. If you two can make it through IVF, no matter the outcome, you can make it through anything.


Yes adoption has come up and we are both fine with it. We both wanted to try to have our own baby first and then if that does not work out (which hopefully it will) then we will discuss adoption again and see where we would like to go.

My adopted daugther is very much "my own". Sorry, when you adopt you become sensitive to adoption language.

skdvr
08-30-2007, 21:46
Our prayers are with you guys. It's not an easy road to go down at all. You will have to learn to be very patient with your wife as her
hormones are going every which way but normal. We tried a few different things about 10 years ago but it never took. We then decided that if it was going to happen then it would happen. We tried for 6 years and now we have a 5 year old son that is our angel. We can not have anymore since then but would love to look into Adoption on day and see where that goes. Again the best of luck and keep us all posted on everything.


Congrats on that... That is Awesome...

Thanks for the thoughts and prayers...

Phil

skdvr
08-30-2007, 21:47
I agree with what others have read, the hormones play havoc with emotions. If you two can make it through IVF, no matter the outcome, you can make it through anything.


Yes adoption has come up and we are both fine with it. We both wanted to try to have our own baby first and then if that does not work out (which hopefully it will) then we will discuss adoption again and see where we would like to go.

My adopted daugther is very much "my own". Sorry, when you adopt you become sensitive to adoption language.


Sorry about that. I thought about it as I was typing it that it would probably get to someone, but I did not know how else to word it. I appologize and did not intend to offend anyone...

Phil

yankeefan21
08-31-2007, 13:05
My adopted daugther is very much "my own". Sorry, when you adopt you become sensitive to adoption language.
Probably meant "on our own..." :smiley20:

skdvr
09-01-2007, 07:56
Probably meant "on our own..." :smiley20:

That is a better way of putting it. Thank You....

Phil

scubasamurai
09-01-2007, 08:40
well good luck and hope everything takes hold, just remember this is in a long line of how kids take dive money from you, it only gets worst. trust me i have two and there not even teenagers and i am paying for college already.

need to find good rich husbands for them when they hit 18

seriously good luck and tell your wife take it easy

skdvr
09-02-2007, 01:28
well good luck and hope everything takes hold, just remember this is in a long line of how kids take dive money from you, it only gets worst. trust me i have two and there not even teenagers and i am paying for college already.

need to find good rich husbands for them when they hit 18

seriously good luck and tell your wife take it easy

I was just joking with my wife tonight about how we do not even have kids yet and they have already cost me a drysuit. I was just getting ready to buy one and then all of this comes up and my scuba money becomes child money... Oh well, I want kids bad enough. I will get a second job to pay off this invitro and then I will save up enough to get myself a drysuit. :smiley20::smiley1:

Phil

skdvr
10-04-2007, 13:31
Just as an update here is where we stand.

I have gone in for my last bit of blood work and a semen screening (which I am still waiting for results:smiley7:) and my wife went in for a trial run earlier in the week. We were hoping to he on track to do something by the end of the month but it looks like things are going to be delayed. For what reason I do not know. When my wife was talking to the nurse the other day asking about what date we can expect to have to be in for the procedure she made it sound like it would be the end of Nov or early Dec. We are waiting some clarification on that when we go in for a class next week. It just keeps getting more and more expensive everytime we go into the Dr.'s office for one reason or another. When my wife tells me how much more we are going to be spending I always reply "Well there goes another Dry suit or two." Just Kidding of course.

I will post more as more happens it just seems like everything is going in slow motion and it is getting frustrating.

Phil

dawnskies
10-04-2007, 13:48
I can understand your frustrations, next time you go to the Dr., ask what the delay is, don't be afraid to ask. A lot of people I see at work are afraid to ask questions and shouldn't be, it is your life, your health, and you have every right to inquire about your problems. If it is part of the process, they will tell you.

Best of luck to the both of you!

skdvr
12-26-2007, 21:46
OK, OK, I know that I have not kept up with this but I am going to give everyone the quick rundown on where we are right now.

12-12-07 My wife went in for the egg retrevial surgery and they got 19 good eggs (which was a lot). She was actually scheduled to go in on 12-14-07 but she was progressing so quickly that they had her come in early. I of course left my deposit there for them to do their magic and make babies.

12-14-07 We went in for the Implantation. Out of the 19 eggs that they retrevied we had 12 fertilize. They picked to best looking 2 embryos for the implantation. After we left they kept all of the other embryos under observation to see which would survive long enough to be strong enough for freezing. We ended up having 5 embyros that we could freeze for later use.

This friday 12-28-07 we go back in to see if she is pregnant. Both of us have a good feeling about it but are still nervous about the outcome. Friday just cannot come fast enough for me and espically for my wife.

Anyway that is where we are at. I will post the results of Fridays test as soon as we know.

Have a great day...
Phil

bmp51
12-27-2007, 02:05
OK, OK, I know that I have not kept up with this but I am going to give everyone the quick rundown on where we are right now.

12-12-07 My wife went in for the egg retrevial surgery and they got 19 good eggs (which was a lot). She was actually scheduled to go in on 12-14-07 but she was progressing so quickly that they had her come in early. I of course left my deposit there for them to do their magic and make babies.

12-14-07 We went in for the Implantation. Out of the 19 eggs that they retrevied we had 12 fertilize. They picked to best looking 2 embryos for the implantation. After we left they kept all of the other embryos under observation to see which would survive long enough to be strong enough for freezing. We ended up having 5 embyros that we could freeze for later use.

This friday 12-28-07 we go back in to see if she is pregnant. Both of us have a good feeling about it but are still nervous about the outcome. Friday just cannot come fast enough for me and espically for my wife.

Anyway that is where we are at. I will post the results of Fridays test as soon as we know.

Have a great day...
Phil

Our fingers are X'd for you....

I also spoke to a close friend of mine, he and his wife did the same thing... he wanted me to "tell" \ "post" to you to get your wife (and maybe you) into a invitro support group.. (just other people going through the exact same thing, your doctor should have info on it..) he said his wife was "not welcomed" at some "mommy" groups (I think that is a bunch of Crap, a mommy is a mommy, natural, invitro, adopted...etc)... anyway he said the hormones were BAD! even after the invitro... more than any "normal" pregnancy... his wife had a rough time with some of the crazies out there... anyway I guess it really helped her...(so take it or leave it thatís what he wanted me to tell you)...

and from my wife and I good luck!! the world needs more good parents!!! and donít worry about diving.. it is NOTHING compared to a child... All the fun I ever had combined, doesnít even rate next to 5 minutes of my daughters laughter...(though I still like to dive :)

Cheddarchick
12-27-2007, 04:58
Good luck...My 1 s in law went invitro and it took 2 years, my other sis in law adopted 4 kids from Romainia. Both bunchs are happy as can be...Just keep the faith and try to stay upbeat

skdvr
12-27-2007, 06:50
OK, OK, I know that I have not kept up with this but I am going to give everyone the quick rundown on where we are right now.

12-12-07 My wife went in for the egg retrevial surgery and they got 19 good eggs (which was a lot). She was actually scheduled to go in on 12-14-07 but she was progressing so quickly that they had her come in early. I of course left my deposit there for them to do their magic and make babies.

12-14-07 We went in for the Implantation. Out of the 19 eggs that they retrevied we had 12 fertilize. They picked to best looking 2 embryos for the implantation. After we left they kept all of the other embryos under observation to see which would survive long enough to be strong enough for freezing. We ended up having 5 embyros that we could freeze for later use.

This friday 12-28-07 we go back in to see if she is pregnant. Both of us have a good feeling about it but are still nervous about the outcome. Friday just cannot come fast enough for me and espically for my wife.

Anyway that is where we are at. I will post the results of Fridays test as soon as we know.

Have a great day...
Phil

Our fingers are X'd for you....

I also spoke to a close friend of mine, he and his wife did the same thing... he wanted me to "tell" \ "post" to you to get your wife (and maybe you) into a invitro support group.. (just other people going through the exact same thing, your doctor should have info on it..) he said his wife was "not welcomed" at some "mommy" groups (I think that is a bunch of Crap, a mommy is a mommy, natural, invitro, adopted...etc)... anyway he said the hormones were BAD! even after the invitro... more than any "normal" pregnancy... his wife had a rough time with some of the crazies out there... anyway I guess it really helped her...(so take it or leave it thatís what he wanted me to tell you)...

and from my wife and I good luck!! the world needs more good parents!!! and donít worry about diving.. it is NOTHING compared to a child... All the fun I ever had combined, doesnít even rate next to 5 minutes of my daughters laughter...(though I still like to dive :)

So far we (or she) have been lucky becuase she has not really had to many crazy mood swings. We have been doing shots for 2 months now and so far she has just felt a little off. Anyone who knows my wife knows that she is about the happiest person you could ever meet, and there were times when she said it was hard for her to smile. Which for her is a major change in emotion. Thankfully she has not had the crazy swings of crying her eyes out one mine, then yelling at me, and then being as happy as can be.

It is pretty crazy that the friend of yours had such a hard time with the mommy groups. We have not run into to much of it. Some people that herad about it have just giving us a "Oh, I see" and left it at that. I guess I just do not understand how anyone can fault anyone else that is wanting to have a child bad enough to go through the invitro process or adoption process. There are plenty of people out there that have kids that do not want them or take care of them. We are giving everything that we have just for the chance that we may have a child.

Thanks again for all the support from everyone on here. It is GREATLY appreciated.

Have a good one.
Phil

skdvr
12-28-2007, 09:18
Well we are back from the blood test so now it is just a waiting game. Hopefully before noon we will hear something so we do not have to wait all darn day.

can't wait, can't wait, can't wait

Phil

mm2002
12-28-2007, 09:27
Man, I wish I'd seen this thread earlier! Depending on what your wife looks like, I could have come up there and helped you out! And for a lot cheaper than 15K !!!


:smiley36:Just kidding! I wish you both the best! Kids are awesome! Please keep us posted.

skdvr
12-28-2007, 10:06
Man, I wish I'd seen this thread earlier! Depending on what your wife looks like, I could have come up there and helped you out! And for a lot cheaper than 15K !!!


:smiley36:Just kidding! I wish you both the best! Kids are awesome! Please keep us posted.


:smilie39: I had a few offers, but my wife would not go for it...

As I was typing the stuff above the phone rang so I ran upstairs and of course it was not them.

Thanks
Phil

mm2002
12-28-2007, 10:11
Man, I wish I'd seen this thread earlier! Depending on what your wife looks like, I could have come up there and helped you out! And for a lot cheaper than 15K !!!


:smiley36:Just kidding! I wish you both the best! Kids are awesome! Please keep us posted.


:smilie39: I had a few offers, but my wife would not go for it...

As I was typing the stuff above the phone rang so I ran upstairs and of course it was not them.

Thanks
Phil

Hey, I'm always ready to help a brother out!:smiley36:

skdvr
12-28-2007, 13:57
Well we got the call about an hour ago and it was not good news... Unfortunately the embryos did not take.

Thanks to everyone for the good thoughts and prayers...

Thank You
Phil

mm2002
12-28-2007, 14:24
Awwwww man I'm sorry to hear that. Keep trying I suppose. Best to you and the Mrs.

Foo2
12-28-2007, 15:17
Phil, I'm so sorry to hear that the embryos didn't take. I will pray that things will work out for y'all. Please keep us updated.

ixrayu
12-28-2007, 18:06
Phil, I'm so sorry. I will be praying for ya'll also. It took us 7 years to have Hannah (without invitro but we were geting close to trying it by that point) and I know what the heartbreak feels like. If your wife ever needs someone just to listen, feel free to have her pm me. God bless you two.

skdvr
12-28-2007, 18:10
Thank you to everyone... It has been a tear filled afternoon for sure, having to call everyone and tell them. Espically the people that we had to tell in person.

Thanks again
Phil

Cheddarchick
12-28-2007, 18:33
Just take your wife onto your lap and cuddle for awhile...Tomorrow is a fresh start

snagel
12-28-2007, 18:56
Hang in there Skdvr and Mrs. Skdvr. Think positive thoughts. I cannot imagine the emotions you two are going through so I will not even pretend. As I read through all these posts, I couldn't help to think that there are so many people out there that have children and don't want them or don't want to take care of them. Then there are good people like yourselves that have to go through something like this.

Keep positive thoughts and be there for each other - this sure sounds like a true test of your emotions and faith.

S. Nagel

NucMed Man
12-28-2007, 18:57
Been there tried that but with wife having the troubles due to twisted fallopians. Went through several trials of trying to 'harvest' (what a word) her eggs to implant after mixing with my tadpoles:smiley36:. A'last to no avail, but like your wife and you, felt it was something that needed to be tried. That was 25 years ago though and have heard there is a better chance these days:smiley20:. FYI after two years, we ended up adopting! 'Our son' is now 23 and the daughter (my dive buddy) just had her 16th birthday on the Dec. 22nd:smiley29: So, I want to add my family's hopes for success, along with the encouragement to not forget your other options.


P.S. My wife just reminded me that another friend of ours also tried in vitro and when it did not take they too adopted. The kicker though was that 3 months after the adoption was final they found out that 'SHE WAS PREGNANT' so they had two small ones that were just months apart! Go figure.

scuba Widow
12-28-2007, 22:24
I am so sorry...just remember to love each other and be good to each other.

skdvr
12-29-2007, 07:58
We have already called the Dr. back and scheduled a consultation to see where we can go from here...

Thanks again everyone...

Phil

dallasdivergirl
12-31-2007, 09:41
I am sure you will be wonderful parents, you are learning all about patience right now.

Good luck with your future endevors.

bmp51
01-05-2008, 16:02
sorry man... fingers still x'd for ya..

skdvr
01-06-2008, 07:31
Well we went and talked to the Dr. last week and have decided to try a cycle with the Frozen Embryo's that we have. She said that there is no reason not to try because of our age and the strength of the Embryo's when they were frozen. Our odds go down with the frozen cycle but at this point numbers don't really mean much to us.

Thanks for all the support...

Phil

snagel
01-06-2008, 08:12
It just doesn't seem right...hang in there. Hope maybe this time it works out for you and the misses. This kinda puts everything in place as to what is important in life.

S. Nagel

Cheddarchick
01-06-2008, 17:59
Hang in there.....You are so far into the process, you must not turn back or give up yet....

skdvr
01-07-2008, 07:07
We are not going to give up yet, but insurance does not cover anything so we can only go so far before we spend ourselves into the poor house. We have come to the realazation that this cannot go on forever and then if we do not end up with children then that is just the way that it will have to be. We do not need children to have a happy marriage... We are staying positive but the first cycle was certainly a slap in the face with reality. We were both so sure that it had worked and just could not believe it when it didn't...

Thanks again to everyone...

Phil

skdvr
04-11-2008, 15:50
Well it has been a few months but here is another update...

We decided to go ahead with using the frozen embryo's that we have. It has been a waiting game for a while. We had to wait for Cindy's cycle to get back on track after the first attempt. Then after it got back on track she had to go back on medication to get her body ready for pregnancy again. 3 weeks ago she went in for an ultrasound to check her out to see if her body was at the desired parameters. If it was then the following week she would go in for the implant. Well her body was not ready, so they up the medication and tell her to come back in a week. After that week she still was not ready so they uped the medication again, and now after her 3rd visit today they say she is ready... So we are excited that she is going in again next Fri for the Embryo Implant. It will be a nervous two weeks after that before we can go in for the pregnancy test.

We have 5 frozen Embryo's and as long as they thaw out OK we are going to implant 3 of them. There are several factors that have to work out for all 3 to be implanted. There are two vials with the embryo's. One vial has 3 and the other has two. They do not always survive the thawing process so if all 3 from the 1st vial make it then they will implant all 3. If only 2 make it then they will implant 2. If only one makes it then they will thaw the other vial with the 2 in it. We will implant no more than 3 and HOPEFULLY at least 1. After that all we can do is hope and pray...

Phil

Foo2
04-11-2008, 16:04
Phil,
I'm praying that at least one of these tiny babies will hang on! Sending positive thoughts your way!!! Please keep us updated!

skdvr
04-11-2008, 16:45
Thanks, we are too...

I just know that we are going to have TRIPLETS :smiley29:, but that is fine with me too...

Phil

Garrobo
04-11-2008, 17:05
My cousin and his wife weren't having any luck getting pregnant. But when he came back from the war in the Gulf, lo and behold, she was four months pregnant. He'd been away for six months too. Will wonders never cease to exist? A real miracle wouldn't you say? And didn't cost a dime either. Guess who they named the baby after?

skdvr
04-11-2008, 18:11
My cousin and his wife weren't having any luck getting pregnant. But when he came back from the war in the Gulf, lo and behold, she was four months pregnant. He'd been away for six months too. Will wonders never cease to exist? A real miracle wouldn't you say? And didn't cost a dime either. Guess who they named the baby after?

I know several people that happened to while I was in the Marine Corps...

Sucks for him...

Phil

Texas Girl
04-11-2008, 20:06
Here's to hoping that this round does the trick. Just remember to keep supporting each other no matter what through this difficult time.

NucMed Man
04-12-2008, 09:56
Best of luck from the misses and me.:smiley20:

dallasdivergirl
04-14-2008, 08:18
Good luck to you guys!

I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

Triplets would be fun ;)

skdvr
04-30-2008, 14:21
Another Update...

We went in on the 18th of April for the implant of 3 Embryos. We had been pushed back week after week for one thing or another but we finally made it in there... My wife went in this morning for the pregnancy test....

....

...

...

...

...

...

This time it was positive!!!!!!!


We are both so excited that I just cannot hardly stand it... It was the best news we have heard in a long time.

Thanks again to everyone for your support, thoughts, and prayers....

We know that we are not out of the woods just yet, but at least we are one step closer...

Thanks
Phil

mixahl
04-30-2008, 14:24
:smiley32::smiley32::smiley32:Congratulations!!! Great News :smiley32::smiley32::smiley32:

ratown
04-30-2008, 14:24
Congrats man. I bet you guys are way excited.

Foo2
04-30-2008, 14:29
Congrats to the skdvr's!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm soooo excited for you! Please keep us updated!

reactive
04-30-2008, 14:29
Another Update...

We went in on the 18th of April for the implant of 3 Embryos. We had been pushed back week after week for one thing or another but we finally made it in there... My wife went in this morning for the pregnancy test....

....

...

...

...

...

...

This time it was positive!!!!!!!


We are both so excited that I just cannot hardly stand it... It was the best news we have heard in a long time.

Thanks again to everyone for your support, thoughts, and prayers....

We know that we are not out of the woods just yet, but at least we are one step closer...

Thanks
Phil

I know how big of a deal this is first hand. I'm sending a HUGE congratulations out to you guys!!! Be super careful and follow ALL the rules during the first trimester and it should be smooth sailing from there!
Congratulations again! This is stupendous news!

dallasdivergirl
04-30-2008, 14:31
That is so cool!

I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you guys.

thor
04-30-2008, 14:33
Congrats. We'll send good thoughts your way

K9Pig
04-30-2008, 15:01
:smiley20:
Congrats!!!
I've been sitting here waiting for my son to come out from school, and when he gets in the car he says, "Daddy you look like you are going to cry. I told him NO, I'm just extremely happy for someone I've never met before."
I join ST in Januaury so I had to catch up on the entire thread.
My wife was told she couldn't have any children, and was scheduled to have a hysteracomy at age 26. We went in the day before surgery for blood work/tests, which came positive as being pregnant, so surgery was put off nine months, and now he will turn 11 yo on the 5-17. Ended up having surgery three years later. So, yes I do know about mood swings, but she's the greatest. Again we are all smiles here for you....
:smilie40: Keep us posted.

TxScubaBear
04-30-2008, 17:05
Hey congrats to ya!
One of my co workers and his wife tried that last year- 3rd time actually, they have a set of beautiful twins now!

scuba Widow
04-30-2008, 19:44
Congrats!!!!!

Splitlip
04-30-2008, 20:52
Congrats Bro.

My "miracle" turns 16 next month. We were car shopping today.

skdvr
05-01-2008, 05:54
Thanks again everyone...

She goes in next week for more blood work, to make sure that everything is progressing the way that it should. Then a week or two after that she goes in for an ultrasound to find out if there is 1 or more.

We are really thinking that they may be twins. They implanted 3 embryos. Now I do not know exactly what the following number mean but this is what the nurse told my wife when she called... She said that in the blood they are looking for numbers around 100 which would tell them that she is pregnant. Her numbers were over 800. The nurse said that could mean one of two things. Either there is more than one baby, or just that her hormones are going CRAZY and those numbers will settle down a little.

You could not have smacked the smile off of our faces all afternoon yesterday.

Now to back up a little... FLASHBACK

It was kind of funny when we found out about her being pregnant. We did not expect a call until around 1:00 or 1:30pm. My wife ran to the hardware store to pick up something around 11:00. I saw her pull in the driveway and I could tell that she was on the phone. She was just sitting there in the driveway talking, and talking, and talking. I could not see her very well because of the reflection in the window, so I could not tell if she was smiling or crying, but I just had a feeling that it was the Dr's office that she was talking too. I went to the front door of the house and motioned for her to get the truck. We she stepped out she was SMILING, and just mouthed the words to me "I'm pregnant!". Then of course I wanted her off the damn phone so I could give her a hug and a kiss, and she is just talking away... The nurse was going over all the stuff that she can and cannot do. My wife told me that she did not know why they even went over that stuff, because all she heard was "Your Pregnant". It was a LONG 30 sec that I was watching her sit in the truck talking on the phone.

Everyone in my family is so excited.. It is a nice uplifting feeling that I know a bunch of us needed after the recent loss of my little brother. If he had any hand in helping with this I just know we will have triplets and he will just look down on us and laugh a little...

Thanks again everyone...

Phil

mm_dm
05-01-2008, 07:40
Congrats! You'll make GREAT parents!:smiley32::smiley32::smiley32:

mm_dm
05-01-2008, 07:57
BTW, my wife and I did Invitro and our gem of a son will be turning 11 this summer.

harb99
05-01-2008, 08:05
congrats and good luck with everything :smiley20:

Sounder
05-01-2008, 10:33
That's fantastic news!! Best of luck in the coming weeks. My first should arrive sometime around August 1st. It's the best feeling in the world.

Osprey
05-01-2008, 11:31
Wahooo! Yikes, triplets?? I'm sure twins will be a roller coaster in itself ;) You both have come a long way, enjoy your new adventure!!

caroln
05-01-2008, 11:45
Congratulations to you both!

DiverMom
05-01-2008, 13:24
Wow! Congratulations! The best advice we got when we were pregnant with our first was to remember to enjoy the nine months together... just the two of us.

Now the fun begins. :smiley2:

Bert
05-01-2008, 15:42
Congratulations :smiley20:

divergirl
05-01-2008, 21:45
awesome news! congratulations and good luck.

skippy11
05-01-2008, 22:04
Wow! That is wonderful news!!! I thought one was overwhelming but i can't imagine 2 or even 3:smiley29: You both are blessed and have a wonderful future ahead of you. Good luck and I look forward to your updates.

NucMed Man
05-05-2008, 11:06
Congrats:smiley32:. I'll send you the address for my cigar when the baby arrives:smiley2:.

DollFin
05-05-2008, 14:35
:egg:Congratulations!!!!

skdvr
05-06-2008, 05:47
:egg:Congratulations!!!!

:smilie39:

Thanks again to everyone... It is a nice view from up here on Cloud 9.

Thanks
Phil

mm2002
05-06-2008, 10:20
Many congrats Phil! This is just TOO cool!

skdvr
05-26-2008, 18:25
Well we went in for our first ultra sound a little over a week ago and below is the result...

TWINS!!!!
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll34/pebalsamo/1-1.jpg

Sorry I had to wait so long, but we had not told our family that we were having twins until today. I have a few family friends that are on here too so I could not take the chace of anyone else finding out....

My wife and I are SO EXCITED. She is right at 2 months right now, so we know that we are still not out of the woods yet, but we are still excited...

Phil

mm2002
05-26-2008, 18:32
Wow! I don't know what to say, except Wow! Double congrats!!!
You do know that multiple births are fairly common when using the methods you guys have. That's the only thing keeping my wife from trying it. I really want another one, but if we try that, we may end up with with another whole set. I think I'd be cool with it, but I don't know about her. Again, congrats!!

skdvr
05-26-2008, 20:10
Wow! I don't know what to say, except Wow! Double congrats!!!
You do know that multiple births are fairly common when using the methods you guys have. That's the only thing keeping my wife from trying it. I really want another one, but if we try that, we may end up with with another whole set. I think I'd be cool with it, but I don't know about her. Again, congrats!!

Yeah we knew that it was possible, although since we did this round with Frozen Embryo's multibles are not nearly as common, espically since the 1st (fresh) round did not work. Success rate with a fresh cycle is 50% with a frozen is 30%, so we feel EXTREMELY lucky...

We were both kind of hoping for twins. We would have been very grateful and happy if all 3 took but that could have been a whole nother problem, or if we only got one out of the deal. We are very gratefull for what ever we are blessed with...

Phil

harb99
05-26-2008, 20:47
congrats on the extra bun in the oven

:smiley20:

Texas Girl
05-27-2008, 10:22
Phil, that is wonderful news. Here's hoping for an uneventful pregnancy and delivery. After that it is double the events!

Foo2
05-27-2008, 10:27
Wooohooo for Phil and the Mrs!!!! How exciting....2 babies! You guys deserve it! Congrats on your 2 blessings!

NucMed Man
05-30-2008, 12:22
Congrats X 2:smiley32:. But don't think you can get away with only 1 Cigar.:smilie39:

skdvr
05-30-2008, 13:17
Congrats X 2:smiley32:. But don't think you can get away with only 1 Cigar.:smilie39:

Damn, I did not think about Cigars.... HHHMMMMMMM:smiley20:

Phil

skdvr
08-05-2008, 14:24
Well I thought I would update this again...

We went into the Hospital last week for another ultrasound and we found out that we are having 2 baby boys.

We are both very excited... Not sure about names just yet. So far we are just keeping them seperate as Baby A and Baby B. Hopefully we will get some names picked out before they show up:smiley20:

Phil

crgjpg
08-05-2008, 14:55
Congrats. So I began at the beginning of the thread reading sicne I joned about a month ago. I read in anticipation hoping for the best. I knew that the result were probably aready determined but I was wishing for the best for you.

You could always name them James and Peter after me. :smiley36:

Foo2
08-05-2008, 15:03
Congrats Phil! Being a mother of two boys myself...I know you're gonna have so much fun!

mm2002
08-05-2008, 15:13
Great news Phil!
Man, you better start a scuba gear savings right now.....this is going to get pricey! :smiley36:

DollFin
08-05-2008, 15:55
*wondering if he's considering naming them Joe and Larry!* :smilie39:

Double congrat's!!!

mike_s
08-05-2008, 16:54
Well I thought I would update this again...

We went into the Hospital last week for another ultrasound and we found out that we are having 2 baby boys.

We are both very excited... Not sure about names just yet. So far we are just keeping them seperate as Baby A and Baby B. Hopefully we will get some names picked out before they show up:smiley20:

Phil


For some reason I never saw this thread until today!


Congratulations!

You've got two new dive buddies!

Jenn
08-05-2008, 17:11
Awww I am so happy for you but I got the chills (good chills) of excitement when I read that you guys were pregnant congratulations. I am so happy for you guys. I am so glad that it worked out for you both.

violakat03
08-05-2008, 17:55
So where's the ultrasound picture?! :D

Big congratulations. My husband and I have been trying for a little over a year now, but we figure 'if it happens, it happens' and if it doesn't, we'll adopt.

I'd love to have twins, I can't imagine how excited you guys are! Congrats again!

mchain
08-05-2008, 19:18
Man, I read this thread from the start to finish and what a ride! Congratulations!

skdvr
08-06-2008, 07:40
Thanks again to everyone for all the kind words... Here are a couple of the latest ultrasound pics....

Here is Baby A's profile shot....

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll34/pebalsamo/Ultrasound/balsamo18-1.jpg

Here is Baby B waving at the camera....

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll34/pebalsamo/Ultrasound/balsamo64-1.jpg

Phil

mm_dm
08-06-2008, 07:48
Baby A appears to resting up on a surface interval. Baby B appears to be putting his fins on. :)

There's nothing quite like being a dad :smiley20:

mm2002
08-06-2008, 09:09
Cute kids! They look just like you Phil!!!

skdvr
08-06-2008, 09:16
Cute kids! They look just like you Phil!!!

Yeah, I think so too, but I am pretty sure that they have more hair than me:smiley20:

Phil

mike_s
08-06-2008, 10:39
Cute kids! They look just like you Phil!!!


when compared to his avatar picture..... you're right, they kinda do! :smilie39:

loudgonzo
08-06-2008, 10:56
Congratulations!!

sravin1
08-06-2008, 12:07
congratulations. enjoy every moment

skdvr
08-27-2008, 18:57
Well here is a little update...

We went into the Hospital this morning for another ultrasound and both babies are doing well. They are both right at 1lb with good heartbeats.

BUT - while they were doing the ultrasound they wanted to check her cervix length and it turns out that it is way to short. It is supposed to be 3mm or greater, and 2mm is considered abnormal. Her cervix measured .98mm, so it is basically opening up from the inside leaving teh closed portion at .98mm instead of 3mm. The brought her up to labor and delivery to see if she was having contractions that she could not feel, and she is. They now have her on Magnesium to hopefully stop the contractions. We will be in the hospital all night tonight. If they can stop the contractions tonight, in the morning they are going to sew her cervix closed and have her on bedrest for the duration of her pregnancy. So things are going to be changing around our house for the next few months. I guess it is a good thing that she works from home, and my schedule is pretty flexable (except for weekends). We already have family that is going to come and stay at our house on the weekends while I am at work to help her out if she needs it. We were both fairly nervous earlier today, but things seem to be under control at the moment. We are just sitting in her room right now watching America's Got Talent and she is eating dinner. This is her first meal since breakfast at 6:30 this morning so she is feeling much better right now after getting to eat something.

It will be a long night tonight as I am sure that neither of us will sleep much...

just wanted to keep everyone updated....

Phil

thagar
08-27-2008, 20:47
Yikes, I hope everything turns out alright. I will be praying for you.

FailedExistence
08-27-2008, 22:59
Sending you both lots of good thoughts ...

Foo2
08-28-2008, 00:00
Oh my Phil! I hope & pray that the contractions stop and that the stitching is successful so she carries until term!

skdvr
08-28-2008, 00:12
Well we talked to the Dr a few hours ago and she said that they are probably NOT going to sew her cervix closed. They said that with as far along as she is (22 weeks) and because her body is trying to go into labor they do not want to mess with her cervix at all. Even if they do get the contractions to stop, which they have to do before they could stich her cervix, they are afraid that messign with her cervix could cause her to go right back into pre term labor. There is also the chance of accidentally breaking her water while they are trying to do the stitching. Right now it is 12:22am here in Mo. and she is still having contractions. I think that if it continues for a few more hours they are going to add more meds.

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and prayers...

Phil

dallasdivergirl
08-28-2008, 10:55
Thanks for keeping us posted.

Many good vibes for your family

skdvr
08-28-2008, 15:33
Well good news this afternoon... She is off the Magnesium now. About 3 am they came in and started her on another Med to help with the contractions. Then this morning at about 7am they took her off the Mag because her contractions had really settled down. So she is feeling much better because the Mag was making her sick. She also has no IV's in her anymore, and she can get up and use a real bathroom instead of the bedpan. she said that those two things alone are awesome and it makes her feel much better. The Dr. told her that she will be in the Hospt for 5 to 7 more days at least, and they will observe her and see if they are going to let her go home for bedrest or if she will have to stay in the Hospt.

Thanks again for the well wishes from everyone....

Phil

thor
08-28-2008, 15:55
We'll keep our fingers crossed. Hope you are holding up well.

skdvr
08-29-2008, 15:55
As of this afternoon my wife is still having the little minor contractions. The Dr. came in this morning and told her that the meds that they have her on right now can only continue until Sun. After that they can put her back on the Magnesium for a few more days and then that is about it. W HAVE to be able to keep them in for at LEAST another 2 weeks so that she can be at 24 weeks for them to even have a fighting chance. Things are getting a little discouraging because the meds just do not seem to be doing much, but we are both still positive, just nervous. It has been some long days sitting around the hospital all day and night, but it is worth it if they can get this under control...

Phil

Foo2
08-29-2008, 18:47
Phil,
You, your wife, and your precious babies are in our prayers! I know her doctor is gonna take good care of her. Keep the faith, it will all work out.

mm2002
08-29-2008, 19:13
Brother Phil, I'm with you guys in spirit. I wish you both all the best, and I'm going to have faith that everything will be OK. If you need me for ANYTHING just call me OK.

skdvr
08-29-2008, 21:24
Thanks again to everyone.

We just had a Dr. come in for visit and answered a few questions for us. We thought after the last Dr. was in that he said that when the drugs she is on now are done that she cannot go back on them. Well this Dr. cleared that up for us. She said that they need to give the babies a 2 day break from the meds. If they take her off the meds and things start going south that they have other drugs (Magnesium) that they will give her only in a emergency, since it is actually fairly toxic. We both actually feel a little better after talking to the Dr.

Still just taking things day by day.

We are getting ready to throw a movie up on the tube and try to get some sleep.

THANKS again to everyone for the kind words and thoughts...

Phil

snagel
08-30-2008, 07:08
Wow Phil....

I haven't read this thread in quite awhile. So glad to hear things are looking up for you and the wife. Congrats on everything so far and our prayers are with you guys - all 4 of you.

Keep up the hard work. I still can't get it out of my mind about how so many people take having kids for granted and some don't even want them. Then there are couples like you that suffer heartache trying to have kids. I sure hope things go great for you guys. You definately have been on a rollercoaster ride and can't even imagine the emotions you guys have been through. We are all pulling for you. Not sure what we can do, but if you need anything and we can help, don't hesitate to ask.

I'm looking forward to meeting the young guys at New Melle some day.

Snagel

skdvr
08-31-2008, 09:40
Well right now we are waiting to do another measurement of her cervix to see if it changed at all while she has been on the drugs. Then this afternoon at somepoint she will stop her drugs. They will then do another measurement in 2 days to see if ther have been any changes.

The nurse actually just walked in the door and told us that they will be coming up to get Cindy in a little while to take her downstairs to do the ultrasound on her cervix.

Phil

skdvr
09-04-2008, 22:46
Well she has been in the hospital for a week now, and things are starting to look a little better. She had another cervical scan today and the Dr. said that the length of the cervix has not changed much, but the funneling effect has gotten a little better. So at least we are going in the right direction. She will hit 23 weeks on Sat. At 24 weeks they will give her a steroid shot to help beef up the boys (they will be in trouble if they get into professional sports:smiley36:). At 28 weeks they will give her another steroid shot to again beef them up a little. We really want to make it to at least 30 weeks, but she NEEDS to make it to at least 24. Things are still one day at a time right now, but it has actually gone pretty quickly so far.

Phil

snagel
09-05-2008, 05:27
You go Girl!!!! Hang in there and fight, you're doing great. We are all pulling for you.

Phil, this has to be exhausting for both of you. What more can I say, except we are all behind you and can't wait for the big day.

Snagel

Foo2
09-05-2008, 09:54
Great news! Thanks for the update!

ScubaJ
09-05-2008, 10:28
Glad to hear things are improving. Sounds like it's been a crazy ride so far.
Our thoughts & prayers are with all 4 of you. Hang in there.


Your situation is certainly close to my heart. After 4yrs of trying, my wife and I just got through a successful round of IVF. We go in for our first ultrasound next week & will hopefully find out how many buns are in the oven. Right now her HGC & Progesterone levels indicate multiples, so we'll see.

skdvr
09-05-2008, 15:31
Glad to hear things are improving. Sounds like it's been a crazy ride so far.
Our thoughts & prayers are with all 4 of you. Hang in there.


Your situation is certainly close to my heart. After 4yrs of trying, my wife and I just got through a successful round of IVF. We go in for our first ultrasound next week & will hopefully find out how many buns are in the oven. Right now her HGC & Progesterone levels indicate multiples, so we'll see.

Well good luck with everything... It is certainly an emotional rollercoaster. We were pretty sure to after seeing my wifes HDC levels that she was going to have more than one. We are very excited to be having twins... The first ultrasound was SO AMAZING to see those little guys in there.

Phil

skdvr
09-14-2008, 15:33
A little update... My wife took a little down turn today.... She went in for another cervical scan and they noticed that she is starting to diolate and that he water was pretty close to breaking. They did not want to do any more vaginal exams because they thought that they may break her water... They then brought her straight to Labor and Deliever again and put her back on the Magnesium and the other drug that she was on last time (I cant remember the name) to try to stop everything. They have her in a bed right now with her legs above her head to try to take as much preassure off her cervix as possible. She hit 24 weeks yesterday, which is a huge step. She got one steroid shot yesterday and she just got her second one a couple of hours ago. One of the NICU Dr's was in here telling us about the possible issues with a 24 week baby. We are really hoping for at least 3 more weeks. We would prefer to make it at least until 30 weeks, but at this point we will take what we can get....

Phil

Splitlip
09-14-2008, 16:28
Be strong for her.
I am not an MD, but I went through some difficult times before I had my kid. Sounds like you are doing all the right things and it will work out.
My best wishes for you both.

thagar
09-14-2008, 17:07
Hang in there everyday the baby stays in the better

mm2002
09-14-2008, 18:14
I wish you guys the best, Phil. I'm pulling for at least three more weeks! Tell the wifey to hang in there!

cummings66
09-14-2008, 19:41
I had a friend who just went through that and it was nip and tuck the entire time, then when it came to the due date the baby just didn't want to go. They ended up doing a C section on her, just think, they were very worried she'd be very premature and it ended up the opposite.

I'm rooting for you guys, it'll turn out well I'm sure.

Foo2
09-14-2008, 22:55
*chanting* 3 more weeks! 3 more weeks! 3 more weeks! Hang on little babies! Thanks for the update Phil!

skdvr
09-14-2008, 23:01
Thanks again everyone.... Your thoughts are greatly appreciated....

Phil

skdvr
10-12-2008, 09:11
Another Update....

We had a quiet 3 weeks or so which was very nice, BUT on Fri she started having really bad contractions in the morning... She was scheduled to get her second round of steroids on Sat so they moved them up to Fri. Things kind slowed down for a little while in the afternoon so we thought we were in the clear. Then they picked back up again in the afternoon and they sent her back down to Labor and Delivery so that they could put her back on Magnesium to try to get things calmed down. They checked her cervix and she was still at 1.5 cm which she has been at for the last month so no change is a good things. Yesterday (Sat) morning she was feeling pretty good. She was handling the Mag better than she had the previous two times. They said that because she is further along she has more blood flow right now so she was not feeling as crappy as she had previously. By Sat afternoon she was starting to feel pretty badly. She has still been having contractioins while on the mag though. They have not been as bad as before, but Mag will normally stop them completely. She is set to have the Mag off today at noon. Her baby shower is this afternoon at 1pm here at the hospital. They told her that they will let her go up there for 10 or 15 min to say hi to everyone. They are thinking that she may go into labor a few hours after they take her off the Mag since she was still having contractions while she was on it, but they really do not know. While she is still having the contractions they have gotten further apart. They really have no idea with her because they really did not think she would have made it as far as she has. Several of the Dr.'s here at Labor and Delivery said that they could not believe that she is still here and still pregnant.

We both feel pretty confident that if she goes into labor today that both boys will be just fine. Still chances of problems because of them being so early, but with the two rounds of steroids they should be just fine. They will have to be in the NICU for a while, but the Hospt. that we are at has one of the Best in the state. This place is known as the Baby Factory, so we feel really good with the Dr.'s that are here...

I hope that everyone is having a great weekend....

Phil

fire diver
10-12-2008, 12:46
Congrats on making it this far! I'm sure that when they are finally born, they will grow up healthy and strong. Keep us updated, and we'll keep you in our prayers and thoughts.

Foo2
10-12-2008, 16:37
Yay for the babies Phil!! I hope that they come at the perfect time and that they are healthy and strong! Thanks for the update!!!

skdvr
10-13-2008, 10:07
Well she stabilized out yesterday afternoon after they took her off the Mag. They even let her go up to her baby shower for about 30 min and say hi to everyone....

They moved her back up to the 5th floor, which is more of a waiting area for mom's to be. She has been crampy and having contractions every so often, but she is much happier being up on the 5th floor.

Phil

mm2002
10-13-2008, 11:02
Great news Phil! I'm pullin' for you guys bro!

mm_dm
10-13-2008, 12:30
Thanks for the update, Phil! I was just talking to a dive buddy of mine who is in a similar invitro boat with his wife and it made me think of you guys(he and his wife are expecting twins as well). Your wife is a real trooper!

Rileybri
10-13-2008, 13:49
Wow I just read through this thread for the first time. Quite the wild ride you and your wife have been on! I have to day i was very happy to see that you made it past the 24 week point and she is still hanging in there. It is amazing what they can do in the NicU these days! Just know that as with all of the rest of the thoughts and prayers out there for you that have at lest two more comming at ya from Vermont (with a bit of fall foliage added in for good measure!)

hang in there brother and it will all work out!

cheers,

Brian D.

skdvr
10-13-2008, 15:23
Well we came back down to Labor and Delivery a few hours ago... She was having contractions and cramps all night, but they were not that often or bad. This morning they started getting worse and closer together. So she is back in a labor and delivery room, where they can constantly monitor the boys and her contractions. They put her on two more drugs (No Mag) to try to slow down and or stop the contractions. So as usual we are on a wait and see time. Cindy is getting pretty tired of labor... As I am typing this I think she has gone about 10 min without a contraction, so the drugs seem to be helping out. She is actually starting to fall asleep. She did not get much sleep last night. I think I am heading downstairs to get a cup of coffee.

Thanks again everyone for the thoughts, prayers, and support. It has actually been kind of nice to be able to write a little about it. Cindy has been keeping a pretty detailed journal of everything. The last I saw it I think that she had 15 pages typed out of all the crude she has been though these 7 weeks...

Have a good one...

Phil

fire diver
10-13-2008, 16:24
Good to hear that things are still going good. I can only imagine the torture your wife is going through with all this. I remember my wife's extended labor, but that wasn't anywhere near as long as her's. Just keep being there to support her.

Keeping your family in my thoughts and prayers.

Cheddarchick
10-13-2008, 19:02
Wow seems like just yesterday You talked about having the procedure...Way to go!!!! Give big hugs to your wife!

Liv7301
10-13-2008, 21:22
Like Riley from the other day, I just read through this whole thread from start to finish for the first time. It is an amazing journey and I can't even begin to imagine what it has been like. You and your wife are definitely warriors!

Wishing you peace, a bit of sleep, and when this is all said and done, two healthy, bouncing baby boys. Your family will be in my thoughts!

skdvr
10-14-2008, 04:28
Well the boys have arrived. My wifes water broke last night while watching Mon night football. They took her in for a c-section and the boys are now here. I started a new thread for there here (http://forum.scubatoys.com/surface-interval/18091-our-2-new-baby-boys.html#post235858)...

Thanks again everyone for all your thoughts and prayers.... We needed every bit we could get....

Phil