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GMDGeek
10-25-2009, 23:10
I've evaluated and researched regulators, octos, BC's, DC's, and much more and now I am going to work on figuring out a Compass.

Some might say "a compass is a compass" but in my experience (which is limited at this point) I have used 2 compasses underwater and have been very displeased with them. Granted they were rental gear but still none the less disappointed with them a lot - they both stuck and took forever to orient to NORTH.

I do know I want the watch to be mounted on my wrist. But what I want to know what is the best compass out there? Is there one that is a combo compass AND electronic compass? And no, I am not talking dive computer.

My background with compasses is pretty solid - We used them in Boy Scouts all the time and I've been on lots of Geo hunts too.

So I do know my way around a compass.

I welcome all feedback and thanks,
Gerry

Tassie Diver
10-25-2009, 23:30
Don't dismiss the fluxgate compasses in some computers.

There's one in my Zeagle N2iTion 3 and I was pleasantly surprised at how well it works. I know a couple of other computers have them too.

fisheater
10-26-2009, 00:40
The generally accepted "best" magnetic compass is the Suunto SK-7 in a DSS mount

clavicl3
10-26-2009, 00:59
Are electronic compasses more or less reliable/accurate than a traditional one?

CompuDude
10-26-2009, 01:06
The generally accepted "best" magnetic compass is the Suunto SK-7 in a DSS mount

This.

You can stop your search now, GMD.

Or, you can search out threads just like this on every active scuba forum out there and see that every single one comes to the same answer. :smiley2:


Are electronic compasses more or less reliable/accurate than a traditional one?

Possibly more precise, but not more accurate. Magentic North is Magnetic North, no matter what device you're reading it with. Thing is, there's a LOT less to go wrong with an analog compass. Short of stomping on one (which would kill the electronic one, also), there isn't a lot that can go wrong with a piece of plastic and a sliver of magnet floating in solution.

inventor
10-26-2009, 01:49
The generally accepted "best" magnetic compass is the Suunto SK-7 in a DSS mount

This.

You can stop your search now, GMD.

Or, you can search out threads just like this on every active scuba forum out there and see that every single one comes to the same answer. :smiley2:


Are electronic compasses more or less reliable/accurate than a traditional one?

Possibly more precise, but not more accurate. Magentic North is Magnetic North, no matter what device you're reading it with. Thing is, there's a LOT less to go wrong with an analog compass. Short of stomping on one (which would kill the electronic one, also), there isn't a lot that can go wrong with a piece of plastic and a sliver of magnet floating in solution.


You Sir, are correct...
The 'more precise, but not more accurate' statement is the exact same argument I've had with a young techie on our local forum, and another friend. Precise within a few meters, does not mean it can locate those few meters on the globe. An actual compass with centuries of use will be much more dependable than a computer which can give identical readings, if actuated at different locations. Several spots on Earth have identical magnetic readings. And, actual compasses do not turn off and on. An actual compass will not misread the Earth's magnetic field, and vary if switched off, since they can't. And... parting shot... The local dive forum techie stated that his computer compass was more sensitive. Meaning, it would respond to any magnetic field, more vigorously. Any localized equipment could effect the compass. Ahhh, OK I'm done mouthin' off.

Tassie Diver
10-26-2009, 05:00
Okay, I'm going out on a limb here... Fluxgate compasses are less affected by soft iron in the vicinity. A magnet will be attracted to the soft iron so will experience deviation as a result. Fluxgate compasses are not** attracted to the soft iron so only experience the local variation caused by a field induced in the soft iron (as are magnetic compasses).

** could be wrong...

snagel
10-26-2009, 05:34
It's my theory that the magnetic pull is weaker under water.....only explanation I have because it seems to work fine on the surface but when I get under water it goes a little wacky. I'm sure it's not me......

Snagel

GMDGeek
10-26-2009, 08:22
I see ST doesn't carry the Suunto SK-7, where is the recommend place to purchase?

Thanks,
Gerry

ScubaToys Larry
10-26-2009, 08:35
Suunto is one of the companies in the Aqualung batch that don't allow any internet sales, so your choice is gray market, overseas, or just go to your local dealer if suunto is the brand you want.

CompuDude
10-26-2009, 11:33
I see ST doesn't carry the Suunto SK-7, where is the recommend place to purchase?

Thanks,
Gerry

As much as I dislike to sully myself by recommending LeisurePro, it's generally the only option, other than paying full MSRP (which is absurd) at your LDS. They're the only ones that don't give a hoot about AquaLung's pricing controls and internet sales policies, so they're the only ones that sell it here in the US. (online, that is, for a good price)

On rare occasions they'll pop up for sale used, but those occasions are very rare, and they tend to be snapped up within minutes, so don't hold your breath.

Pick up the DSS mount direct from DSS.

GMDGeek
10-26-2009, 12:24
Whats the link for DSS?

I just ordered the Suunto from Amazon, who ships it from LeisurePro but since I put it with another order I didn't have to pay shipping. This will honestly be one of the few times where my money isn't going to ST :(

Gerry

CompuDude
10-26-2009, 12:33
Whats the link for DSS?

I just ordered the Suunto from Amazon, who ships it from LeisurePro but since I put it with another order I didn't have to pay shipping. This will honestly be one of the few times where my money isn't going to ST :(

Gerry

Deep Sea Supply.

(.com)

GMDGeek
10-26-2009, 12:36
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?category=instruments

This the right one?

Looks like I might as well get the mount for the Oceanic VT3 / Elite T3 as well.

Anyone able to post images of how they have laced up their mounts?

No Misses
10-26-2009, 13:05
It's my theory that the magnetic pull is weaker under water.....only explanation I have because it seems to work fine on the surface but when I get under water it goes a little wacky. I'm sure it's not me......

Snagel

Some compasses are more sensitive to tilting. On land it is very easy to know that you are holding the compass flat. In the water, you may be tilting it.

From my personal experience; I bought a Dive Right wrist compass a few months back. It was the biggest POS I have ever owned. If you tilted it just a few degrees, you could watch the card swing from side to side.

A good compass should not be influenced by tilting (within reason).

CompuDude
10-26-2009, 13:56
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?category=instruments

This the right one?

Looks like I might as well get the mount for the Oceanic VT3 / Elite T3 as well.

Anyone able to post images of how they have laced up their mounts?

That's the right page.

Two (well, three) options for your lacing: The mounts come with photos and directions for two different mounting methods. You can use either of those, no problem. They're not adjustable, but if you mostly dive with one type of exposure suit (meaning you're not constantly switching between wet and dry, like me) and you're not planning to loan your compass to small women with significantly smaller wrists than yours, that won't be a problem, and you're done.

If you do switch it up, or loan it out regularly, you can do one of a couple alternate lacing methods that allow for adjusting. Mine is laced to be adjustable, but you may not need to for yours. My first compass had a fixed lacing until I bought a drysuit, then it was too tight. I bought a spare and ended up figuring out an adjustable lacing method, so now I have adjustable on both. Here's mine: Suunto SK7 in Deep Sea Supply Boot: Adjustable Bungee Threading Method (3/16" Bungee) (http://h2ogeek.com/misc/sk7boot/)

I've edited this so many times it's nearly incomprehensible but I don't feel like starting over so hopefully my point still got across. :)

Tassie Diver
10-26-2009, 16:54
... but when I get under water it goes a little wacky. I'm sure it's not me......

Snagel
:smilie39:Oh I so want to do something with this line...:smiley2:

snagel
10-26-2009, 17:09
Careful now!

CWSWine
10-26-2009, 18:11
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?category=instruments

This the right one?

Looks like I might as well get the mount for the Oceanic VT3 / Elite T3 as well.

Anyone able to post images of how they have laced up their mounts?

That's the right page.

Two (well, three) options for your lacing: The mounts come with photos and directions for two different mounting methods. You can use either of those, no problem. They're not adjustable, but if you mostly dive with one type of exposure suit (meaning you're not constantly switching between wet and dry, like me) and you're not planning to loan your compass to small women with significantly smaller wrists than yours, that won't be a problem, and you're done.

If you do switch it up, or loan it out regularly, you can do one of a couple alternate lacing methods that allow for adjusting. Mine is laced to be adjustable, but you may not need to for yours. My first compass had a fixed lacing until I bought a drysuit, then it was too tight. I bought a spare and ended up figuring out an adjustable lacing method, so now I have adjustable on both. Here's mine: Suunto SK7 in Deep Sea Supply Boot: Adjustable Bungee Threading Method (3/16" Bungee) (http://h2ogeek.com/misc/sk7boot/)

I've edited this so many times it's nearly incomprehensible but I don't feel like starting over so hopefully my point still got across. :)

Do you have any problems loosing up during a dive?

CompuDude
10-26-2009, 19:11
Do you have any problems loosing up during a dive?

Never. :)

(Note that the 3/16" bungee is essential... the thinner stuff will slip)

GMDGeek
10-26-2009, 20:42
Thanks again everyone .. my compass and DSS mount are in Route ... and CD thanks a ton! That lace up photo set was awesome help.

cbope
10-27-2009, 10:32
Suunto is one of the companies in the Aqualung batch that don't allow any internet sales, so your choice is gray market, overseas, or just go to your local dealer if suunto is the brand you want.

That might be a restriction by the US importer, it's definitely not Suunto policy. I see lots of Suunto gear for sale online from local dive shops. Computers, compasses, gauges, BC's and regs. Of course, I live in Finland, and less than 5 miles from Suunto's headquarters. And SK-7's are cheaper here last time I checked... (I don't currently own one though).

CompuDude
10-27-2009, 15:36
Suunto is one of the companies in the Aqualung batch that don't allow any internet sales, so your choice is gray market, overseas, or just go to your local dealer if suunto is the brand you want.

That might be a restriction by the US importer, it's definitely not Suunto policy. I see lots of Suunto gear for sale online from local dive shops. Computers, compasses, gauges, BC's and regs. Of course, I live in Finland, and less than 5 miles from Suunto's headquarters. And SK-7's are cheaper here last time I checked... (I don't currently own one though).

Yes, it's the policy of Aqualung... the ONLY U.S. importer of Suunto products. (not counting grey market sources)

Europe (and Finland, apparently) does not allow the BS restriction of sales the way our "free market" does.

GMDGeek
10-27-2009, 20:55
What I find amusing by "no internet sales" is that while my Compass shipped from Leisure Pro (eh) I did not order it from them directly. I ordered it from AMAZON! Ya know one of the biggest internet resellers out there.

How odd.

Course you know at some point I really hope the US stops importing so much stuff and starts making things for themselves again.

CompuDude
10-27-2009, 22:22
What I find amusing by "no internet sales" is that while my Compass shipped from Leisure Pro (eh) I did not order it from them directly. I ordered it from AMAZON! Ya know one of the biggest internet resellers out there.

How odd.

Course you know at some point I really hope the US stops importing so much stuff and starts making things for themselves again.

While I see your point, Amazon just sets up storefront services for their vendors and collects the payment. The items are still sold by, and ship from, the various sub-vendors. Says this right under every item listing.

"In Stock.
Ships from and sold by LeisurePro."

IMO, the only thing you gained from purchasing via Amazon is ease of adding to a general wish list, and some added complications if you ever had to return it. I guess technically you also divvied up the profit between Amazon and LP a little, so on second thought, you could get some kudos from the LP haters for that. LOL

cbope
10-28-2009, 00:26
Suunto is one of the companies in the Aqualung batch that don't allow any internet sales, so your choice is gray market, overseas, or just go to your local dealer if suunto is the brand you want.

That might be a restriction by the US importer, it's definitely not Suunto policy. I see lots of Suunto gear for sale online from local dive shops. Computers, compasses, gauges, BC's and regs. Of course, I live in Finland, and less than 5 miles from Suunto's headquarters. And SK-7's are cheaper here last time I checked... (I don't currently own one though).

Yes, it's the policy of Aqualung... the ONLY U.S. importer of Suunto products. (not counting grey market sources)

Europe (and Finland, apparently) does not allow the BS restriction of sales the way our "free market" does.

Don't even get me started on how the "free market" US allows cell phone operators to get away with things that are unethical and just plain illegal in most other countries.

Oh, and by the way, Finland is part of the EU... :smiley2:

CompuDude
10-28-2009, 00:31
Oh, and by the way, Finland is part of the EU... :smiley2:

Never quiz an American on Geography.

:smilie39:

(I know where Finland is, but couldn't recall if it's part of the ever-growing Borg that is the EU or not LOL)

cbope
10-28-2009, 00:36
Course you know at some point I really hope the US stops importing so much stuff and starts making things for themselves again.

That's unlikely to happen anytime soon. For the past few decades, the US has outsourced manufacturing to countries with cheap labor. Outside a few areas, the US is no longer the leader it once was and the free market encourages massive profits over keeping jobs at home. Adding to that many "US" companies are now foreign owned, and the owners have little incentive to create jobs in the US. Not to mention the proliferation of lawsuits for anything and everything in the US.

Note that I'm not anti-US... I am American. But I have the fortunate (or unfortunate) benefit that I have lived outside the US for 10 years and I have a much different view of things now. It's so sad to see what passes for "news" in the US these days.

cbope
10-28-2009, 00:38
Never quiz an American on Geography.


I seem to recall my wife (she is Finnish) mentioning this a couple of times... :smiley36:

TJDiver
10-28-2009, 08:48
Suunto is one of the companies in the Aqualung batch that don't allow any internet sales, so your choice is gray market, overseas, or just go to your local dealer if suunto is the brand you want.

That might be a restriction by the US importer, it's definitely not Suunto policy. I see lots of Suunto gear for sale online from local dive shops. Computers, compasses, gauges, BC's and regs. Of course, I live in Finland, and less than 5 miles from Suunto's headquarters. And SK-7's are cheaper here last time I checked... (I don't currently own one though).

Yes, it's the policy of Aqualung... the ONLY U.S. importer of Suunto products. (not counting grey market sources)

Europe (and Finland, apparently) does not allow the BS restriction of sales the way our "free market" does.

So...by your reasoning, placing restrictions on manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit, is the real "free market"? I'm assuming, by your statements, that you would have the gov constrain all businesses to the same model? Our free market does not equate to "BS restriction of sales"...it allows manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit. This "BS restriction of sales", as you call it, is actually a person's or company's freedom to sell their product in the manner, and price, they wish. If you don't like how one manufacturer manages the sales of their products, you're free to choose another. In other words, a free market, rather than a market artificially crutched by the gov.

cbope
10-28-2009, 12:29
Suunto is one of the companies in the Aqualung batch that don't allow any internet sales, so your choice is gray market, overseas, or just go to your local dealer if suunto is the brand you want.

That might be a restriction by the US importer, it's definitely not Suunto policy. I see lots of Suunto gear for sale online from local dive shops. Computers, compasses, gauges, BC's and regs. Of course, I live in Finland, and less than 5 miles from Suunto's headquarters. And SK-7's are cheaper here last time I checked... (I don't currently own one though).

Yes, it's the policy of Aqualung... the ONLY U.S. importer of Suunto products. (not counting grey market sources)

Europe (and Finland, apparently) does not allow the BS restriction of sales the way our "free market" does.

So...by your reasoning, placing restrictions on manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit, is the real "free market"? I'm assuming, by your statements, that you would have the gov constrain all businesses to the same model? Our free market does not equate to "BS restriction of sales"...it allows manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit. This "BS restriction of sales", as you call it, is actually a person's or company's freedom to sell their product in the manner, and price, they wish. If you don't like how one manufacturer manages the sales of their products, you're free to choose another. In other words, a free market, rather than a market artificially crutched by the gov.

Wrong. It is not placing restrictions on manufacturers to manage sales of their products, it is ensuring a free and open playing field for both companies selling their products and consumers actually having a choice and not being locked into buying from a single non-competitive source. Let me take cell phones as an example. In the US, the carriers have almost monopoly control over the consumer. Sure you are free to choose the model you want, if your carrier has the brand/model you want. But what if you want phone A and service from carrier B? Sorry, you can't have that because carrier B has an "exclusive" deal to carry only phones from company C. You do not have true freedom in this so-called free market. Here in the EU, there is actually something called consumer protection that prevents this sort of situation. And because of that, I am "free" to choose both my phone and my carrier independently. It is illegal to tie the device to the service here and I am "free" to change carriers at any time, without paying fines, without losing my number or having to buy a new phone. I just get a new SIM card from the new carrier and pop it in my phone. And the carriers do not disable features in phones to fit their service, like switching off MMS or tethering. I buy a phone and all it's features are available to me that the phone manufacturer feels they want to put into that model. The carriers cannot disable features in the phones at their own will. Consumers here would not accept that. This is true freedom and only a single example. But hey, you are free to keep giving companies more power and control over consumers over there.

/steps off soapbox...

TJDiver
10-28-2009, 14:00
Suunto is one of the companies in the Aqualung batch that don't allow any internet sales, so your choice is gray market, overseas, or just go to your local dealer if suunto is the brand you want.

That might be a restriction by the US importer, it's definitely not Suunto policy. I see lots of Suunto gear for sale online from local dive shops. Computers, compasses, gauges, BC's and regs. Of course, I live in Finland, and less than 5 miles from Suunto's headquarters. And SK-7's are cheaper here last time I checked... (I don't currently own one though).

Yes, it's the policy of Aqualung... the ONLY U.S. importer of Suunto products. (not counting grey market sources)

Europe (and Finland, apparently) does not allow the BS restriction of sales the way our "free market" does.

So...by your reasoning, placing restrictions on manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit, is the real "free market"? I'm assuming, by your statements, that you would have the gov constrain all businesses to the same model? Our free market does not equate to "BS restriction of sales"...it allows manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit. This "BS restriction of sales", as you call it, is actually a person's or company's freedom to sell their product in the manner, and price, they wish. If you don't like how one manufacturer manages the sales of their products, you're free to choose another. In other words, a free market, rather than a market artificially crutched by the gov.

Wrong. It is not placing restrictions on manufacturers to manage sales of their products, it is ensuring a free and open playing field for both companies selling their products and consumers actually having a choice and not being locked into buying from a single non-competitive source. Let me take cell phones as an example. In the US, the carriers have almost monopoly control over the consumer. Sure you are free to choose the model you want, if your carrier has the brand/model you want. But what if you want phone A and service from carrier B? Sorry, you can't have that because carrier B has an "exclusive" deal to carry only phones from company C. You do not have true freedom in this so-called free market. Here in the EU, there is actually something called consumer protection that prevents this sort of situation. And because of that, I am "free" to choose both my phone and my carrier independently. It is illegal to tie the device to the service here and I am "free" to change carriers at any time, without paying fines, without losing my number or having to buy a new phone. I just get a new SIM card from the new carrier and pop it in my phone. And the carriers do not disable features in phones to fit their service, like switching off MMS or tethering. I buy a phone and all it's features are available to me that the phone manufacturer feels they want to put into that model. The carriers cannot disable features in the phones at their own will. Consumers here would not accept that. This is true freedom and only a single example. But hey, you are free to keep giving companies more power and control over consumers over there.

/steps off soapbox...

Uhh...just how does Scubapro or Aqualung excercise any power or control over anyone "over here"?

Sorry, but you're comparing apples to oranges. Tying a product to a service can create an anti competitive environment, given the right circumstances. However, we're just talking about a company's, or individual's, freedom to sell their products in the environment of their choosing, at the price of their choosing. If Scubapro had control over all dive boats in a given area, and you could only dive on those boats with Scubapro gear, then your argument might be valid. As it is, if you are unhappy with Scubapro's or Aqualung's prices, then you are free to choose other brands, and STILL be allowed to dive your own dives...nothing anti-competitive or restrictive about it. If you are simply unhappy with someone's prices, then that is just life. Hey, I'd sure as hell like to get a new Corvette for the price of a Kia, but that's just ridiculous isn't it. Not all things need to be micro managed by the gov, but they sure have done a bang up job of convincing a lot of citizens of just such a "need". :smiley29:

cbope
10-29-2009, 00:35
Suunto is one of the companies in the Aqualung batch that don't allow any internet sales, so your choice is gray market, overseas, or just go to your local dealer if suunto is the brand you want.

That might be a restriction by the US importer, it's definitely not Suunto policy. I see lots of Suunto gear for sale online from local dive shops. Computers, compasses, gauges, BC's and regs. Of course, I live in Finland, and less than 5 miles from Suunto's headquarters. And SK-7's are cheaper here last time I checked... (I don't currently own one though).

Yes, it's the policy of Aqualung... the ONLY U.S. importer of Suunto products. (not counting grey market sources)

Europe (and Finland, apparently) does not allow the BS restriction of sales the way our "free market" does.

So...by your reasoning, placing restrictions on manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit, is the real "free market"? I'm assuming, by your statements, that you would have the gov constrain all businesses to the same model? Our free market does not equate to "BS restriction of sales"...it allows manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit. This "BS restriction of sales", as you call it, is actually a person's or company's freedom to sell their product in the manner, and price, they wish. If you don't like how one manufacturer manages the sales of their products, you're free to choose another. In other words, a free market, rather than a market artificially crutched by the gov.

Wrong. It is not placing restrictions on manufacturers to manage sales of their products, it is ensuring a free and open playing field for both companies selling their products and consumers actually having a choice and not being locked into buying from a single non-competitive source. Let me take cell phones as an example. In the US, the carriers have almost monopoly control over the consumer. Sure you are free to choose the model you want, if your carrier has the brand/model you want. But what if you want phone A and service from carrier B? Sorry, you can't have that because carrier B has an "exclusive" deal to carry only phones from company C. You do not have true freedom in this so-called free market. Here in the EU, there is actually something called consumer protection that prevents this sort of situation. And because of that, I am "free" to choose both my phone and my carrier independently. It is illegal to tie the device to the service here and I am "free" to change carriers at any time, without paying fines, without losing my number or having to buy a new phone. I just get a new SIM card from the new carrier and pop it in my phone. And the carriers do not disable features in phones to fit their service, like switching off MMS or tethering. I buy a phone and all it's features are available to me that the phone manufacturer feels they want to put into that model. The carriers cannot disable features in the phones at their own will. Consumers here would not accept that. This is true freedom and only a single example. But hey, you are free to keep giving companies more power and control over consumers over there.

/steps off soapbox...

Uhh...just how does Scubapro or Aqualung excercise any power or control over anyone "over here"?

Sorry, but you're comparing apples to oranges. Tying a product to a service can create an anti competitive environment, given the right circumstances. However, we're just talking about a company's, or individual's, freedom to sell their products in the environment of their choosing, at the price of their choosing. If Scubapro had control over all dive boats in a given area, and you could only dive on those boats with Scubapro gear, then your argument might be valid. As it is, if you are unhappy with Scubapro's or Aqualung's prices, then you are free to choose other brands, and STILL be allowed to dive your own dives...nothing anti-competitive or restrictive about it. If you are simply unhappy with someone's prices, then that is just life. Hey, I'd sure as hell like to get a new Corvette for the price of a Kia, but that's just ridiculous isn't it. Not all things need to be micro managed by the gov, but they sure have done a bang up job of convincing a lot of citizens of just such a "need". :smiley29:

Well, if I want to buy Suunto in the US, I am prevented from getting a competitive price online because AquaLung doesn't want anyone selling Suunto to advertise prices online. That means I get to pay inflated retail prices at an LDS because real competition is prevented. Without the online price competition, there is no pressure to offer competitive prices at retail shops. Thus the consumer gets screwed by having to pay a higher price than if the product were offered in a more competitive environment. That is anti-competitive. I never said I wanted a Corvette at Kia prices. I want a Corvette at a fair (competitive) price that is not artificially inflated by restrictions placed on distribution, whether that is done by the manufacturer or importer/distributor. I'm not saying this is the case in all industries, but many suffer from this. Of course a company is free to try to sell their product at whatever price they want, but I also want to freedom to get a competitive price. The internet has changed the game, but many companies still do not get it. Sadly in the diving industry, some companies just do not want to give up their old ways of pricing and distribution. But hey, if you want to pay artificially higher prices due to these practices, go ahead. I prefer to shop around and look for a competitive price online and select companies based on their customer service. That's why I buy a lot of my gear from ST.

TJDiver
10-29-2009, 10:10
Edit: Nevermind...we've hijacked this thread enough.

CalBearister99
10-29-2009, 11:20
Suunto is one of the companies in the Aqualung batch that don't allow any internet sales, so your choice is gray market, overseas, or just go to your local dealer if suunto is the brand you want.

That might be a restriction by the US importer, it's definitely not Suunto policy. I see lots of Suunto gear for sale online from local dive shops. Computers, compasses, gauges, BC's and regs. Of course, I live in Finland, and less than 5 miles from Suunto's headquarters. And SK-7's are cheaper here last time I checked... (I don't currently own one though).

Yes, it's the policy of Aqualung... the ONLY U.S. importer of Suunto products. (not counting grey market sources)

Europe (and Finland, apparently) does not allow the BS restriction of sales the way our "free market" does.

So...by your reasoning, placing restrictions on manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit, is the real "free market"? I'm assuming, by your statements, that you would have the gov constrain all businesses to the same model? Our free market does not equate to "BS restriction of sales"...it allows manufacturers to manage the sales of their products as they see fit. This "BS restriction of sales", as you call it, is actually a person's or company's freedom to sell their product in the manner, and price, they wish. If you don't like how one manufacturer manages the sales of their products, you're free to choose another. In other words, a free market, rather than a market artificially crutched by the gov.

Wrong. It is not placing restrictions on manufacturers to manage sales of their products, it is ensuring a free and open playing field for both companies selling their products and consumers actually having a choice and not being locked into buying from a single non-competitive source. Let me take cell phones as an example. In the US, the carriers have almost monopoly control over the consumer. Sure you are free to choose the model you want, if your carrier has the brand/model you want. But what if you want phone A and service from carrier B? Sorry, you can't have that because carrier B has an "exclusive" deal to carry only phones from company C. You do not have true freedom in this so-called free market. Here in the EU, there is actually something called consumer protection that prevents this sort of situation. And because of that, I am "free" to choose both my phone and my carrier independently. It is illegal to tie the device to the service here and I am "free" to change carriers at any time, without paying fines, without losing my number or having to buy a new phone. I just get a new SIM card from the new carrier and pop it in my phone. And the carriers do not disable features in phones to fit their service, like switching off MMS or tethering. I buy a phone and all it's features are available to me that the phone manufacturer feels they want to put into that model. The carriers cannot disable features in the phones at their own will. Consumers here would not accept that. This is true freedom and only a single example. But hey, you are free to keep giving companies more power and control over consumers over there.

/steps off soapbox...

No offense, but as a competition lawyer let me say that the EU has gone off the deep end when it comes to regulating free market competition. The fact is, consumers do not pay for even the cost of their cell phone in most cases because the service providers subsidize the equipment in order to get you as a customer. If you want a phone that's unlocked, go ahead and pay full retail price for it. All the European Commission is going to do by meddling in this industry is raise prices for consumers through a myopic and short-sighted competition policy that ignores the economic reality of network markets.

Sadly, U.S. regulators are trying to jump off the deep end as well. For example, Apple and AT&T are being investigated for their deal that limits iPhone service to AT&T customers. Well guess what, AT&T doesn't have a monopoly on cellular service, and Apple doesn't have a monopoly on cell phones. So where's the harm? In reality, AT&T helps subsidize the cost of the iPhone, and in return, you the consumer get a lower overall price. And if you don't want AT&T service, Verizon and Sprint are actively marketing competing phones that are in some ways superior to iPhone. The market is working it out - and all DOJ is doing is getting in the way.

As it relates to Sunnto, if they want to limit distribution to certain retailers, fine - that's their right. They believe that internet retail free rides off of full-service LDSs, and it's a legitimate concern. Other retailers believe consumers can get good service over the internet, and allow their products to be sold. So it's not true that "competition is prevented" - while Sunnto doesn't want intra-brand competition (dealers competing on price), the fact is there is plenty of inter-brand competition (just look at all the different brands available on ST!). In the end, if Sunnto guessed right (consumers value LDS service), it will benefit from the fact that LDSs carry its products. If the others guessed right (consumers want lower prices, and/or the internet can provide good service), Sunnto will lose. The market - not mindless bureaucrats who have never held a private sector job in their lives - decide who wins and who loses.

So the fact is, free markets work best when antitrust law is applied only to those agreements between firms that reduce competition. This ain't one of them - in fact, cellular service has gotten cheaper and better over time, even though there's only a handful of service providers. Government should just stay the *@&! out of it!

Off my soapbox now :)

h2odragon1
10-29-2009, 14:57
--they both stuck and took forever to orient to NORTH.

My background with compasses is pretty solid - We used them in Boy Scouts all the time and I've been on lots of Geo hunts too.

So I do know my way around a compass.

I welcome all feedback and thanks,
Gerry[/quote]

If it took forever to orient north get one that orients to the South, they work just as good!:smiley29: (tounge-in-cheek)

GMDGeek
10-30-2009, 19:09
Ok dumb question - The Suunto compass arrived yesterday and the DSS mount arrived today. The compass came pre-mounted in a write mount.


Question I have - how the heck do I get the compass out? Don't want to pull on the top and pop the compass spinner off and don't want to use a knife and damage the mount (in the event I need it down the road).

Tried pushing it from the bottom but ...

CompuDude
10-30-2009, 23:21
Soak it in really hot water. (about as hot as you can stand)

After a few minutes, it will have softened to the point where you can pop it out without needing hard tools that can damage it.

fisheater
10-31-2009, 11:30
Are you guys talking about compasses on this antitrust / exclusive marketing thread?

:-)

GMDGeek
10-31-2009, 14:16
Thanks again CompuDude - that worked.