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PlatypusMan
09-02-2007, 12:07
Take a look at the following news story:

http://www.cdnn.info/news/industry/i070830.html

Do you think that diving, particularly recreational diving, should be regulated by law?

Many times over the years and course of my training, the statement was made that "there's no such thing as the SCUBA police." This was always in reference to the fact that the SCUBA industry seems to be for the most part a self-regulating one.

Is the inference in this article correct? Considering the number of people that participate in recreational scuba diving, are there too many deaths associated with our sport in relation to the diving population as a whole?

... or are we just pandering to fear in order to make a news story?

Hemlon
09-02-2007, 12:10
No!

IMHO, it will not decrease diving accident rates. All it will do is put more money into regulatory hands.

DivingsInMyBlood
09-02-2007, 12:10
I dont think it could hurt if its done right, but that would just be an excuse to make it more expensive to do also. So it seems like a 50/50 kinda thing.

PlatypusMan
09-02-2007, 12:13
I dont think it could hurt if its done right, but that would just be an excuse to make it more expensive to do also. So it seems like a 50/50 kinda thing.

What is a 50-50 kind of thing?

greyzen
09-02-2007, 12:14
No!

IMHO, it will not decrease diving accident rates. All it will do is put more money into regulatory hands.

I agree with Hemlon.

You can't regulate something like diving hoping to actually get real results.

Even the best divers can be in situations where no amount of training will save them...regulation does little but encourage corporate influence. All that does is force standards to increase sales... they could care less about survivable or safe.

BuzzGA
09-02-2007, 12:19
I don't think regulation would help much...just look at the roads, driving is regulated and most days on my way to work I'm pretty convinced that hasn't worked.

wkowalski
09-02-2007, 12:22
So you're saying the Government can do a better job? I have yet to see any program they've been involved be more efficient.

divinginn
09-02-2007, 12:24
NO,i have enough government intrusion into my life already,and i have not been impressed with their track record on regulating other things.

thesmoothdome
09-02-2007, 12:25
Someone please read the folliowing paragraphs and explain them to me:

He found Neville Gordon Bennett, 35, a driller and helicopter pilot from Rolleston, whose body was never found, drowned on December 26, 2003, near Kirstens Reef, just south of Motunau Island.


The Coroner also found Steven Leslie Cope, 44, a Christchurch physiotherapist, who was never found, drowned on December 17, 2005, at North Reef north of Motunau Island.

PlatypusMan
09-02-2007, 12:46
Someone please read the folliowing paragraphs and explain them to me:

He found Neville Gordon Bennett, 35, a driller and helicopter pilot from Rolleston, whose body was never found, drowned on December 26, 2003, near Kirstens Reef, just south of Motunau Island.


The Coroner also found Steven Leslie Cope, 44, a Christchurch physiotherapist, who was never found, drowned on December 17, 2005, at North Reef north of Motunau Island.

This was written by a coroner in New Zealand; the standards for writing there are different than the United States. Here, it would undoubtedly say something along the lines of "missing, and presumed drowned."

chewyjr15
09-02-2007, 12:51
well I think most diving accidents are caused mainly by human error so I dno what quote scuba police would do to prevent diving accidents, only thing it would do is put money into thepockets of regulatory commisions. I think if there was more emphasisb on training and buddy checks and people didn't do stupid things that would be beter than a scuba police

DivingsInMyBlood
09-02-2007, 13:06
I dont think it could hurt if its done right, but that would just be an excuse to make it more expensive to do also. So it seems like a 50/50 kinda thing.

What is a 50-50 kind of thing?

for the pros and cons, the way divers are trained could get better and be the same around the board.

wkowalski
09-02-2007, 13:06
so SCUBA police underwater? Nice...

greyzen
09-02-2007, 13:08
I can promise you that just like every other industry.. the law will be passed only if companies (Zeagle, Scubapro, Tyco, Ford, etc.) can make a buck off forced purchases.

A perfect example is the training sessions at my LDS.
To take the OW you are required to purchase:
Mask, Fins, Snorkel, Booties (if applicable)

To take AOW you are required to purchase:
Dive Light x2, Slate, Knife


You aren't *required* to purchase these items in the LDS, however you are highly encouraged. So much so, that any attempts to get a non-sales pitched suggestion on WHAT is needed is quickly shot down. The reason they do this is obvious... it's easy to show you WHY you need the stuff, and they need your money.

Gas companies have been doing it forever... half of America thinks that oil only exists in the countries we are at war at, and believe that if we don't get at the oil... we will all die in a nuclear winter.

hoop
09-02-2007, 13:15
Great. Just what we need.... Another government regulatory agency designed to save me from myself.....:smiley5:

creggur
09-02-2007, 13:47
for the pros and cons, the way divers are trained could get better and be the same around the board.
.
This is not likely.. What it will do is add a layer of buerocracy, more expense in govt. fees, and silly rules created by some govt. bonehead who's probably never been in the water in his life... Nothing good could possibly come from this...

awap
09-02-2007, 13:49
I think it might be interesting to seperate the agencies that provide training from the agency that issues c-cards. Do it something like drivers liscences. The C-card issuer administers written and performance tests as appropriate. And formal d(r)iver training is optional and seperate.

But justifying it based on the few accidents we have is BS.

thesmoothdome
09-02-2007, 14:26
I can promise you that just like every other industry.. the law will be passed only if companies (Zeagle, Scubapro, Tyco, Ford, etc.) can make a buck off forced purchases.

A perfect example is the training sessions at my LDS.
To take the OW you are required to purchase:
Mask, Fins, Snorkel, Booties (if applicable)

To take AOW you are required to purchase:
Dive Light x2, Slate, Knife


You aren't *required* to purchase these items in the LDS, however you are highly encouraged. So much so, that any attempts to get a non-sales pitched suggestion on WHAT is needed is quickly shot down. The reason they do this is obvious... it's easy to show you WHY you need the stuff, and they need your money.

Gas companies have been doing it forever... half of America thinks that oil only exists in the countries we are at war at, and believe that if we don't get at the oil... we will all die in a nuclear winter.

Greyzen, I understand the analogy you are trying to make, but are you suggesting that LDS's are forcing you to buy gear for the class that they should be providing for training? I'd have to disagree with that. Items like masks are fit crucial. Trying to provide them for all students is absurd. As for equipment in classes beyond OW, you should be expected to provide your own stuff if you would like to continue your education. There's no reason that the LDS should have to provide gear for continuing students. Just my 2 cents.

ianr33
09-02-2007, 14:37
Do you think that diving, particularly recreational diving, should be regulated by law?


NO NO and NO.

If you regulate diving where do you stop? Dry caving? Rock Climbing? Mountaineering? Walking in the park? Skydiving? Mountain Biking etc etc etc.

ANY attempts at regulation (other than self regulation) should be protested against vigorously.

And by the way, CDNN is not exactly a reputable source

greyzen
09-02-2007, 14:39
Greyzen, I understand the analogy you are trying to make, but are you suggesting that LDS's are forcing you to buy gear for the class that they should be providing for training? I'd have to disagree with that. Items like masks are fit crucial. Trying to provide them for all students is absurd. As for equipment in classes beyond OW, you should be expected to provide your own stuff if you would like to continue your education. There's no reason that the LDS should have to provide gear for continuing students. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for the feedback and being friendly about it. :D
I don't really see loaner gear as that stressful to a diveshops budget but again I'm not in their business (rental gear is obviously profitable or it wouldn't happen...right?)

I'm not saying provide them without a price, I'm saying flat out refusal of even offering an opinion other than "Internet is diver murder" when prompted about bargain shopping.

To me, a good sales person is able to show the market why their product is superior. Not use blatant scare tactics to show everyone but them as inferior.

Say I was to sign up for AOW with ScubaToys and were to ask them "What items are needed for this class?" I would expect them to say:
Buy this, this, this, and two of these.

Not:
"You need to pick this, this, this, and two of these up before the class."
"So I can bring my own stuff in? I already own these."
"Well, maybe... the instructors don't normally allow stuff bought from questionable sources."
"Oh, I got this from XXXX vendor, they were a lot cheaper."
"Yeah, you probably can't use it. But all the stuff in our store is tested and proven to work."

It's the same as the government getting involved in every business they can. Lobbyist use scare tactics and antiquated data sources to prove their points. With the right math I can prove or disprove anything you want given enough time.

JahJahwarrior
09-02-2007, 14:42
Government regulation never seems to help, it will only mean we have to pay more taxes in order for the agency to run, then everything we do will be taxed as well to pay for the agency, and it'll take 6-8 months to get a Ccard, just like getting a passport.....government is there to protect the righteous from the evil. (don't know of a simple way to say it without using words like righteous....basically protect those who are doing the right thing from those whoa re doing the wrong thing), and is NOT there to protect the idiots from themselves, so government should NOT regulate diving at all. :) (having air standards is a good thing, but I don't think any shops should be held to them by law. I think the consumers should hold them to it. If it's not up to standard, don't buy there.)

ianr33
09-02-2007, 14:44
Greyzen,if a shop refuses to teach you a course without you buying gear from them go somewhere else.
Plenty of instructors in Austin !

greyzen
09-02-2007, 14:50
Greyzen,if a shop refuses to teach you a course without you buying gear from them go somewhere else.
Plenty of instructors in Austin !

yeah I would, I was using it as an example.

thesmoothdome
09-02-2007, 14:50
Thanks for the clarification. I'm in complete agreement with you bro. If you sign up for a class, the LDS does have the right to request that you have certain items, and you should be informed of this before you pay for the course. The definately should not have the right to dictate where you purchase these items. You purchased a course from the them and that is where your obligation ends. At that point, they should earn the sale by providing good information and fair prices, but where you buy your gear should be your decision, just like it was as to where you took your class from.

dmdoss
09-02-2007, 15:13
Great. Just what we need.... Another government regulatory agency designed to save me from myself.....:smiley5:

Before long they would be issuing tickets for diving. Go below 500psi = $20 ticket. Blow your ascent rate = $50 ticket. go below your cert. level = $100 ticket. Wear your mask on your forehead = $1000 ticket.:smiley36:

JCAT
09-02-2007, 15:52
Do you think that diving, particularly recreational diving, should be regulated by law?


NO NO and NO.

If you regulate diving where do you stop? Dry caving? Rock Climbing? Mountaineering? Walking in the park? Skydiving? Mountain Biking etc etc etc.

ANY attempts at regulation (other than self regulation) should be protested against vigorously.

And by the way, CDNN is not exactly a reputable source

AGREE!! 100%,,,,,,NO REGULATION!!!!!

cudachaser
09-02-2007, 17:57
No Way!!!!!

Jamesmb
09-02-2007, 18:27
No regulation

scubasamurai
09-02-2007, 18:35
just look how good a job the goverment does with driver lic. still a bunch of deaths weekly, especially in florida, and the regulations and tests do not make a difference. more money on the c-cards and what police are going to wear blue lights on their heads!!!

no way no how.

mm_dm
09-02-2007, 18:45
I look forward to the regulation of the dive industry like Dracula looks forward to the sunrise.

Xspect
09-02-2007, 18:53
What would be the goals ?

what are the benchmarks ?

PlatypusMan
09-02-2007, 20:29
What would be the goals ?

what are the benchmarks ?


A very good question.

Just to give everyone an example of how quickly the government can move, the Federal Trade Commission Guidelines for the Jewelry Industry were originally written in the 1930s; they were recently updated and put up for industry review -- in the 1990s. Seems they were trying to catch up with technology...

So, it would seem the consensus among the readership on this board is a resounding No to the idea of any form of regulation by a governmental agency of recreational scuba.

IF someone or something were ever to propose such a thing, can we count on your support by phone calls, e-mails and writing to help defeat it?

Desert_Diver
09-02-2007, 20:58
Let me start by saying that I believe that I am primarily responsible for my training, conduct and execution while diving. If it all goes in the toilet, it will probably be mostly my fault.

However, you have to realize that the news story was written about New Zealand. Almost all governments that derive historically from Great Britain have socialist governments to greater or lesser degrees. Only the United States seems to prize (very highly) individual freedom and the right to individuality. I doubt that Americans would stand for the censorship that is routinely imposed on newspapers and indivuals in England. The Brits and Australians can't own guns. They are sharply limited about what they can say (at least as compared to Americans). And both are regulated to a degree that would cause a revolt in the States. (In Austalia, I believe it is a ticketable traffic offense to let your arm or elbow hang outside the car window). Maybe the Aussies don't mind. But look at the flak that gets raised when a state tries to mandate motorcycle helmets here. In Utah, underage children on motorcycles are required to wear DOT approved helmets, but they are strictly optional for adults.

So it is more likely that the laws would show up in Australia or New Zealand before we would face the fight here. And I will lay odds that it would be a noisy, raucous fight.

Art

mm_dm
09-03-2007, 00:41
So it is more likely that the laws would show up in Australia or New Zealand before we would face the fight here. And I will lay odds that it would be a noisy, raucous fight.Art


Somehow, a William Wallace (Braveheart) speech would be in order, but I'll just say it, simply, "Do you feel... lucky?"

Divegirl
09-03-2007, 01:05
NO, and then NO, really this would add expense to the sport, and we as responsible divers, regulate each other, and respect the area we dive, Tell me what is there to regulate?

The government has enough to worry about that it can't fix, like paying a gazillion dollars for a screw,

somewhereinla
09-03-2007, 02:15
I guess I am one of the very few that think that it should be regulated.

Capt Hook
09-03-2007, 09:19
I doubt if it would make any difference safety wise, but the government could make a little extra in the way of taxes.
I wonder how many have died in New Zealand roller blading in the same time period?

WV Diver
09-03-2007, 09:37
I don't have to look at the article to answer this query..............Have you lost your mind?

Scuba is the only sport, activity, (so far) that doesn't punish you for what stupid people do to themselves. I have always bucked any and all parentalistic laws. We have to allow some of the less desirable to weed out themselves.

This sounds sinister and cruel but after a while stupid people get to a person.

Regulation would just produce alot of nonsense "laws" and cost us alot more money with their taxes and fines and all other manner of idiotic control.

Hang onto your freedom man.

reeldive
09-03-2007, 10:33
Well first we have to outlaw GUNS. Then we can regulate everything else and no one can stop us. Big government is for little people

Oh yea and then thier is the speargun thing. Those are dangerous. Yea and dive knives. Can we think of any thing else?

reeldive
09-03-2007, 10:37
What would be the goals ?

what are the benchmarks ?

Goals:
More raw material for the legal system. ie lawers, prosecutors,law enforcement, and don't forget the prison for profit companies out there

fire diver
09-03-2007, 11:08
Take a look at the following news story:

http://www.cdnn.info/news/industry/i070830.html

Do you think that diving, particularly recreational diving, should be regulated by law?

Many times over the years and course of my training, the statement was made that "there's no such thing as the SCUBA police." This was always in reference to the fact that the SCUBA industry seems to be for the most part a self-regulating one.

Is the inference in this article correct? Considering the number of people that participate in recreational scuba diving, are there too many deaths associated with our sport in relation to the diving population as a whole?

... or are we just pandering to fear in order to make a news story?

The first mistake was reading anything from the C-D-N-N website. That website is a sham of a fraud. The owners have been sued numerous times, but keep changing locations and "owner" names. They plagerize, slanderize, and falsify advertising to make the site seem legit.

FD

DevilDiver
09-03-2007, 11:40
I believe the question should be "Should dive operators be regulated" more than diving.
As a diver you assume the responsibility of personal safety. The issue would be a operation who has been contracted to take you to a destination or rented you gear and not taken reasonable measures to insure the customers well being.
This could mean equipment in good condition, a head count of passengers, trained personnel, ect...

YOU WOULD NOT FLY ON AN AIRLINE YOU THOUGHT DID NOT HAVE SAFETY STANDARDS!

As a traveling diver you are contracting with operator with the assumption that the advertised services are safe and maintained to some sort of standard.
The issue appears to be "Should or could this be regulated?"

I for one do not want another Government group telling me how to dive!!

If a dive shop states they are a PADI Five Star operator does that mean anything other than they paid a certain amount to PADI for that right!!! What does this mean to me as a customer? Am i guaranteed a level of security or safety knowing this operation has met a standard!! I don't think so.......

I believe if the big certification companies are willing to put their stamps of approval on a operator there should be a standard that aplies......

somewhereinla
09-03-2007, 14:09
I believe the question should be "Should dive operators be regulated" more than diving.
As a diver you assume the responsibility of personal safety. The issue would be a operation who has been contracted to take you to a destination or rented you gear and not taken reasonable measures to insure the customers well being.
This could mean equipment in good condition, a head count of passengers, trained personnel, ect...

YOU WOULD NOT FLY ON AN AIRLINE YOU THOUGHT DID NOT HAVE SAFETY STANDARDS!

As a traveling diver you are contracting with operator with the assumption that the advertised services are safe and maintained to some sort of standard.
The issue appears to be "Should or could this be regulated?"

I for one do not want another Government group telling me how to dive!!

If a dive shop states they are a PADI Five Star operator does that mean anything other than they paid a certain amount to PADI for that right!!! What does this mean to me as a customer? Am i guaranteed a level of security or safety knowing this operation has met a standard!! I don't think so.......

I believe if the big certification companies are willing to put their stamps of approval on a operator there should be a standard that aplies......

I think you have a very good point. I agree with you.

TexasFreddy
09-03-2007, 16:02
Gov. reg. definetly not, it would only make it cost more, now having higher standards for cert. might help

diverdad
09-03-2007, 16:54
the government has had such remarkable success with it's other endeavors such as removing all of terrorist for the middle east and else were! but really we do not need the government involved in the recreational diving industri any more than they allready are!!!!!

texarkandy
09-03-2007, 17:41
no! (vote Ron Paul!)

Mtrewyn
09-03-2007, 18:13
The goverment already regulates things like immargatiom and look at how good that is working out.

Does any one thing they could realy hand out regulations that would or could be followed?

At my local dive spots (lakes mostly) one of them a corps of engeneers lake (already regulated by the goverment) I have never seen a park ranger other than the one to take your money for the use fee.

finflippers
09-03-2007, 18:49
NO government regulations!!!!!!!!

That being said I know that there are risk involved in scuba diving and I don't need any government official telling me that. If you ever want to see something good go bad let any government get involved.