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View Full Version : I bought some tanks and think I might have got screwed.



bigman241
06-01-2010, 22:03
Well I picked up three tanks today. luxfer Used al80s I got one for 100 bucks with the hydro done in 06. The other two hydros from 09 I got for 125 each. Not the steel 130s I wanted but should work just fine. I think I might have got screwed though.

From what I can tell one has the earliest hydro of 12/88 one 4/82 and one from 5/81:smiley5:

Does this mean there bad. I know there was a issue with luxfer tanks that old. They look ok no cracking around the neck or anything.


SO any thoughts or you dumb ***s would be nice.

Vlane
06-01-2010, 22:13
The 4/82 and 5/81 are made of the bad alloy but I can't remember the if the 12/88 one is or not (I'm thinking it's not). You may have overpaid some but I wouldn't say you got completely screwed unless your LDS won't fill them. Both my Al80s are made of the bad alloy, paid $80 each for them if I remember right, and as long as they pass another hydro or two I'll be happy with them.

Rileybri
06-01-2010, 22:14
Bad News (http://forum.scubatoys.com/tanks/29091-luxfer-tanks-bad-alloy-safe-use.html)

Can you have your LDS check em out or can you get your $$$ back?

Recon
06-01-2010, 22:15
A lot of dive shops will not even touch them.

~Recon

bigman241
06-01-2010, 22:20
well I guess since I bought them for local diving I will run them till he says no. Guess since he SOLD them to me he should fill them. Maybe that is why he said some tanks fail and some don't just depends. ERRRRR
The two that where done last year do not worry me as much as getting the other hyrdro tested next spring.

Rileybri
06-01-2010, 22:22
well I guess since I bought them for local diving I will run them till he says no. Guess since he SOLD them to me he should fill them. Maybe that is why he said some tanks fail and some don't just depends. ERRRRR
The two that where done last year do not worry me as much as getting the other hyrdro tested next spring.

Your LDS sold them to you??:smiley5:

bigman241
06-01-2010, 22:23
just checked the other local shop and their site says they hydro, eddy, and vis the bad tanks. So I am assuming they fill them to.

bigman241
06-01-2010, 22:24
Ya the guy sold them to me. Even after we had a discussion about the bad tanks. I was not sure how to tell and figured since he HAD BEEN RENTING the tanks they would be ok. SO guess it is the last time I go there.

well I guess since I bought them for local diving I will run them till he says no. Guess since he SOLD them to me he should fill them. Maybe that is why he said some tanks fail and some don't just depends. ERRRRR
The two that where done last year do not worry me as much as getting the other hyrdro tested next spring.

Your LDS sold them to you??:smiley5:

navyhmc
06-02-2010, 01:11
the 12/88 tank is 6051 alloy and not the bad, naughty 6351 alloy of the SLC incidents, so it's good to go.

As for the other tanks, as long as they pass hydro, annual vip and eddy current tests, they SHOULD be okay as well. As long as he fills them for you then there's nothing to worry about. Now if he turns right around and says he can't fill them becasue they're 6351 tanks....Time to get nasty and demand a refund!

Smashee
06-02-2010, 02:50
Now if he turns right around and says he can't fill them becasue they're 6351 tanks....Time to get nasty and demand a refund!

I wouldn't touch them with a long stick. There's a guy a few hundred kms south of here who is lucky to be alive after an in-test 6351 tank exploded while being filled. :smiley5:

navyhmc
06-02-2010, 04:15
Story time Smashee!!!!

daZZ
06-02-2010, 05:19
south west rocks incident (http://www.scubaherald.com/south-west-rocks-dive-center-dive-master-looses-hand-in-scuba-tank-explotion/)

Smashee
06-02-2010, 05:42
Story time Smashee!!!!

Happened last year. Most Aussie divers would have heard about this.

Man loses hand in scuba tank explosion - Local News - News - General - Macleay Argus (http://www.macleayargus.com.au/news/local/news/general/man-loses-hand-in-scuba-tank-explosion/1598708.aspx)

It was an in-service tank, made from 6351 alloy. As a result, most shops here won't fill 6351 tanks regardless of test status. Just not worth taking the chance.

A full tank contains the equivalent of about 2 grenades worth of stored energy ( Energy in a Scuba Tank (http://www.combro.co.uk/nigelh/diver/tank.html) ) so I'd rather not contain that in a material known to suffer from unexpected and unpredictable failure. I *like* all my body parts where they are.

To be fair, the chance of one letting go in such a lethal fashion is pretty small, but add explosion risk to the poor buoyancy characteristics and weight and saving a few bucks over the cost of a steelie seems much less attractive.

It's pretty lousy that a dive shop would sell these to someone who's obviously a bit lacking in clue. I'd return them with extreme prejudice.

navyhmc
06-02-2010, 05:55
south west rocks incident (http://www.scubaherald.com/south-west-rocks-dive-center-dive-master-looses-hand-in-scuba-tank-explotion/)

Ouch! to say the least.

My thoughts and prayer are with Mr. Amor and his family and friends.

A few observations on the issue though:

The tank is a steel tank, not Alluminum-It definitely has tell tale rust all over the inside.

It also did not fail at the same location/tank area as the 6351 tanks that have been documented failing. The 6351 tanks fail at the threads, usually with a cataclysmic cascade of failure: The aluminum literally rips.

I am not an accident investigator nor a fatigue expert, but it looks to me as though the tank was stored in a horizontal position as there is a line on the right edge of the rupture that is a heavier rust than the rest of the tank. The tank looks like it failed 12" (30 cm) below the top of the rupture.

It's not a dive cylinder, rather looks like part of a fill bank.

No matter what, it is indeed a tragic accident. And hopes for as full a recovery as possible for Mr. amor.

Thanks for posting.

Bigg_Budd
06-02-2010, 05:59
south west rocks incident (http://www.scubaherald.com/south-west-rocks-dive-center-dive-master-looses-hand-in-scuba-tank-explotion/)

Ouch! to say the least.

My thoughts and prayer are with Mr. Amor and his family and friends.

A few observations on the issue though:

The tank is a steel tank, not Alluminum-It definitely has tell tale rust all over the inside.

It also did not fail at the same location/tank area as the 6351 tanks that have been documented failing. The 6351 tanks fail at the threads, usually with a cataclysmic cascade of failure: The aluminum literally rips.

I am not an accident investigator nor a fatigue expert, but it looks to me as though the tank was stored in a horizontal position as there is a line on the right edge of the rupture that is a heavier rust than the rest of the tank. The tank looks like it failed 12" (30 cm) below the top of the rupture.

It's not a dive cylinder, rather looks like part of a fill bank.

No matter what, it is indeed a tragic accident. And hopes for as full a recovery as possible for Mr. amor.

Thanks for posting.

you're like NCIS, dude.

navyhmc
06-02-2010, 06:07
Story time Smashee!!!!

Happened last year. Most Aussie divers would have heard about this.

Man loses hand in scuba tank explosion - Local News - News - General - Macleay Argus (http://www.macleayargus.com.au/news/local/news/general/man-loses-hand-in-scuba-tank-explosion/1598708.aspx)

It was an in-service tank, made from 6351 alloy. As a result, most shops here won't fill 6351 tanks regardless of test status. Just not worth taking the chance.

A full tank contains the equivalent of about 2 grenades worth of stored energy ( Energy in a Scuba Tank (http://www.combro.co.uk/nigelh/diver/tank.html) ) so I'd rather not contain that in a material known to suffer from unexpected and unpredictable failure. I *like* all my body parts where they are.

To be fair, the chance of one letting go in such a lethal fashion is pretty small, but add explosion risk to the poor buoyancy characteristics and weight and saving a few bucks over the cost of a steelie seems much less attractive.

It's pretty lousy that a dive shop would sell these to someone who's obviously a bit lacking in clue. I'd return them with extreme prejudice.

That's the same story daZZ posted, again please don't think I am lessening the tragedy here, it's not my desire nor intent. But if the tank that ruptured is the one in the posted picture, its not aluminum.

From what I have gleaned from educating myself on the alloy issue is that the number of tanks that actually failed is a low number-no comfort to the person and families of those injured or killed by the rupture I am sure.

The issue literally went undiagnosed for years before the incidents occurred which probably didn't help the matter. But since the cause of the ruptures was found: Sustained Load Cracks and inspections have begun, there have been no more incidents of SLC ruptures that I have found in browsing the net. I contribute that to several reasons:

1: a significant number of the 6351 tanks were taken out of service.

2: Better visual and eddy current testing-before the SLC incidents, eddy current was not normally performed during the VIP.

3: More 6351 tanks were taken out of service due to a failure on the VIP and eddy.

4: A lion's share of the fill stations worldwide will flat out not fill them. I understand this from the perspective of the LDS as the chances of a SLC failure is higher for them than the individual who has a tank(s)

But still, if the tank is in good service, has been properly inspected it is as safe to use as any other tank. If 241 can use them locally, they pass the tests and his shop will fill them, no harm no foul.

But, as you, I do like steel. :smiley20:

navyhmc
06-02-2010, 06:09
south west rocks incident (http://www.scubaherald.com/south-west-rocks-dive-center-dive-master-looses-hand-in-scuba-tank-explotion/)

Ouch! to say the least.

My thoughts and prayer are with Mr. Amor and his family and friends.

A few observations on the issue though:

The tank is a steel tank, not Alluminum-It definitely has tell tale rust all over the inside.

It also did not fail at the same location/tank area as the 6351 tanks that have been documented failing. The 6351 tanks fail at the threads, usually with a cataclysmic cascade of failure: The aluminum literally rips.

I am not an accident investigator nor a fatigue expert, but it looks to me as though the tank was stored in a horizontal position as there is a line on the right edge of the rupture that is a heavier rust than the rest of the tank. The tank looks like it failed 12" (30 cm) below the top of the rupture.

It's not a dive cylinder, rather looks like part of a fill bank.

No matter what, it is indeed a tragic accident. And hopes for as full a recovery as possible for Mr. amor.

Thanks for posting.

you're like NCIS, dude.

:smiley36: all in the picture my friend! :smiley20:

Smashee
06-02-2010, 06:24
[ But if the tank that ruptured is the one in the posted picture, its not aluminum.


It's not the same tank. The one pictured is either a lfited image or a stock one.
http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/j_botle_bang.pdf

navyhmc
06-02-2010, 06:33
That makes sense, thanks for the update. I hate it when reporters do that. So much for credibility...

Thanks for the additional info.

MagnaBoxer
06-02-2010, 06:36
Well I picked up three tanks today. luxfer Used al80s I got one for 100 bucks with the hydro done in 06. The other two hydros from 09 I got for 125 each. Not the steel 130s I wanted but should work just fine. I think I might have got screwed though.

From what I can tell one has the earliest hydro of 12/88 one 4/82 and one from 5/81:smiley5:

Does this mean there bad. I know there was a issue with luxfer tanks that old. They look ok no cracking around the neck or anything.


SO any thoughts or you dumb ***s would be nice.

Big, I'd politely take the tanks back where you bought them and explain that you would like to return them for refund. What is the cost of hydro, vis and eddy current test on the cylinder last vis'd in 06? I'm not sure, but even if it passes the test next year I'm betting you'll have a bit more than you paid for the other two, and if it were me, I'd still have no peace of mind.

Were it me I'd purchase 3 of these instead. Aluminum 80 Tank reviews and discounts, Catalina (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=AL80)

With your forum discount you'd be paying around 135 each, and who knows, were you to buy 3 you may be able to get them a bit cheaper. Free shipping to your home. Take them to your LDS who will then charge you a Vis (5-6 bucks around here) and fill them for you. Then you don't have to worry about bad alloy, SLC, explosion, inability to get filled if you travel away from your normal LDS and need a fill. Nor do you have to worry about your tanks failing hydro for the next 5 years. Plus you get a new valve and they're oh so much prettier LOL..

rayaa3
06-02-2010, 08:29
I agree on returning the tanks and getting some nice new ones.

however, I would point out there is shipping costs on tanks and weights when having them shipped from ST. I don't know how much it would be - but there will be something.

Scubatoys.com -shipping (http://www.scubatoys.com/shipping.asp)

for me it's cheaper to rent, unless I look at it across 5 years (amount of time it would take for renting and buying to be the same)

However if I was going to buy AL80's - I'de likely want to get new tanks. The ones I see used are always nearly 20 years old, usually a year or less away from needing a hydro. Hydro around here means waiting weeks for your tanks (though my shop will usually give you free loaners during that time, if you bought the tanks from him originally) - plus the cost of the hydro.

just my .02 - but I'de rather have 2 brand new tanks, than the 3 tanks you described.

It's just my opinion though. If your LDS won't give you a refund 24 hours after purchase - or credit against new tanks (AT THE VERY LEAST) then, well - HE SUCKS.

Ray

jbres1
06-02-2010, 08:29
Well I picked up three tanks today. luxfer Used al80s I got one for 100 bucks with the hydro done in 06. The other two hydros from 09 I got for 125 each. Not the steel 130s I wanted but should work just fine. I think I might have got screwed though.

From what I can tell one has the earliest hydro of 12/88 one 4/82 and one from 5/81:smiley5:

Does this mean there bad. I know there was a issue with luxfer tanks that old. They look ok no cracking around the neck or anything.


SO any thoughts or you dumb ***s would be nice.


Hi

Sorry, but I think your shop dumped some old tanks on you.
Now that you have them, its time to move on and work with what you got.
As long as you shop is willing to fill them, you can still use them.
The down side to the deal is that you are going to need the eddy test every year along with the vis.. Shops charge extra to do the eddy test, so your 2 old tanks were no deal.

I would go back to the shop and ask for a refund on the old cylinders, or a reduced price or free air fills.

If you can get your money back, I would go looking in a few places for the cylinders. 1) Scubatoys for new tanks, 2) look on e-bay for a tank made in 2000 or newer with current hydro, 3) contact the Haigh Quarry , they sell their old tanks. You can get a luxfer made in the last 5 years for less than you paid.

Good luck, Jim Breslin

Straegen
06-02-2010, 09:19
I would go back to the shop and trade them out for tanks without the known issues. A good shop will let you do that. If not, that would be the last cent they saw from me.

bigman241
06-02-2010, 10:32
I think I will keep them for local diving and when they run out of hydro get rid of them. With 4 years of use on the other two I should come out ok.

Jack Hammer
06-02-2010, 10:49
Biggie - I hope the tanks work out fine for you. I wouldn't necessarily say you got screwed, but I'd say it's pretty safe to say you paid too much. If returning them is not an option, maybe you can talk to the shop and work out a deal for a store credit toward some other items or x amount of free fills.

As far as fills, just because he will fill them doesn't mean other shops or quarries will if you travel. None of the shops or quarries near me that I'm aware of will fill those tanks (incl the 1988 one). Don't feel bad, we all get excited and buy stuff without researching it sometimes. The mistake is made, just do what you can to work around it.:smiley20:

bigman241
06-02-2010, 10:57
What is keeping me from tossing them through his window is the fact the other lds does the eddy, vis hydro and fills the pre 88 tanks.
Biggie - I hope the tanks work out fine for you. I wouldn't necessarily say you got screwed, but I'd say it's pretty safe to say you paid too much. If returning them is not an option, maybe you can talk to the shop and work out a deal for a store credit toward some other items or x amount of free fills.

As far as fills, just because he will fill them doesn't mean other shops or quarries will if you travel. None of the shops or quarries near me that I'm aware of will fill those tanks (incl the 1988 one). Don't feel bad, we all get excited and buy stuff without researching it sometimes. The mistake is made, just do what you can to work around it.:smiley20:

fire diver
06-02-2010, 12:17
[ But if the tank that ruptured is the one in the posted picture, its not aluminum.


It's not the same tank. The one pictured is either a lfited image or a stock one.
http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/j_botle_bang.pdf


This is the reason steel tanks are prefered. Look at the pics. When a steel tank fails, it splits. Even the one pictured is rather extreme for a steel tank failure. Aluminum shatters and generally fails in a spectacular method.

bigman241
06-02-2010, 13:15
This is what worries me.

If the tank passes hydro, eddy, and vis what are the chances it blows when in use or sitting in the garage and not when it is filled. I worry more about it blowing up on my back at 50 feet then in the fill room of the local lds who sold them to me. :smilie40:


[ But if the tank that ruptured is the one in the posted picture, its not aluminum.


It's not the same tank. The one pictured is either a lfited image or a stock one.
http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/j_botle_bang.pdf


This is the reason steel tanks are prefered. Look at the pics. When a steel tank fails, it splits. Even the one pictured is rather extreme for a steel tank failure. Aluminum shatters and generally fails in a spectacular method.

Splitlip
06-02-2010, 16:48
Take them back. If the guy won't give you a refund, tell us the name of the shop. You won't get them filled in Palm beach if you make another road trip.

They CAN "explode" when being filled even with a current hydro.
In theory, a "good" visual "would", "should" identify the stress cracks at the neck to forwarn of potential catastrophe.

Google around and you'll see, including a failure here that took most most of the kid's hand when it leveled the shop.

bigman241
06-02-2010, 17:19
I have googled it. I am 99% sure he will not take them back. It is fun time scuba in Brazil Indiana. He knew what they where and did not care. there is blue paint on two on the first hydro date.
Take them back. If the guy won't give you a refund, tell us the name of the shop. You won't get them filled in Palm beach if you make another road trip.

They CAN "explode" when being filled even with a current hydro.
In theory, a "good" visual "would", "should" identify the stress cracks at the neck to forwarn of potential catastrophe.

Google around and you'll see, including a failure here that took most most of the kid's hand when it leveled the shop.

Diver Kat
06-02-2010, 17:26
I have googled it. I am 99% sure he will not take them back. It is fun time scuba in Brazil Indiana. He knew what they where and did not care. there is blue paint on two on the first hydro date.
Take them back. If the guy won't give you a refund, tell us the name of the shop. You won't get them filled in Palm beach if you make another road trip.

They CAN "explode" when being filled even with a current hydro.
In theory, a "good" visual "would", "should" identify the stress cracks at the neck to forwarn of potential catastrophe.

Google around and you'll see, including a failure here that took most most of the kid's hand when it leveled the shop.

I agree with most here ... take them back. If he refuses, let him know you will file a complaint with your local Better Business Bureau, but even more damaging, tell him your a member of a number of scuba forums and you'll be posting about his shop selling potentially dangerous tanks to a brand new diver.

chilly willy
06-02-2010, 17:42
I have googled it. I am 99% sure he will not take them back. It is fun time scuba in Brazil Indiana. He knew what they where and did not care. there is blue paint on two on the first hydro date.
Take them back. If the guy won't give you a refund, tell us the name of the shop. You won't get them filled in Palm beach if you make another road trip.

They CAN "explode" when being filled even with a current hydro.
In theory, a "good" visual "would", "should" identify the stress cracks at the neck to forwarn of potential catastrophe.

Google around and you'll see, including a failure here that took most most of the kid's hand when it leveled the shop.

I agree with most here ... take them back. If he refuses, let him know you will file a complaint with your local Better Business Bureau, but even more damaging, tell him your a member of a number of scuba forums and you'll be posting about his shop selling potentially dangerous tanks to a brand new diver.
+1
Talk to the owner and let him know there are a lot of people that would not take too kindly to a LDS selling unsafe tanks to a newbie, I would have no problem writing a complaint to PADI mentioning this abhorrent behavior by a dive shop associated with them.

navyhmc
06-02-2010, 17:52
I agree with Kat...there is power in word of mouth. If he doesn't know that he won't be in business very long. All it would take is a few divers making inquiries about classes, gear, etc saying they will be in tomorrow and calling back and advising that they heard about his selling old tanks to a new diver and letting him know that this is the reason they won't be in.

If Big wants to keep them, that's fine. But still.

bigman241
06-02-2010, 18:01
I think I will call him tomorrow. See what he says

chilly willy
06-02-2010, 18:15
You might direct him to this thread as well, if he does the right thing the good word towards his shop will be a much better thing for him. Word of mouth is a powerful thing, good or bad.

ianr33
06-02-2010, 21:00
I agree with most here ... take them back. If he refuses, let him know you will file a complaint with your local Better Business Bureau, but even more damaging, tell him your a member of a number of scuba forums and you'll be posting about his shop selling potentially dangerous tanks to a brand new diver.


You're joking right? Diveshop sold some perfectly legal overpriced tanks to someone who didn't know better. Might not be a good way to run a long term business but thats it.

Should I report a Dive Shop for selling split fins? They could cause a fatality by silting out a cave.

What happened to personal responsibility?

navyhmc
06-02-2010, 21:06
I agree with most here ... take them back. If he refuses, let him know you will file a complaint with your local Better Business Bureau, but even more damaging, tell him your a member of a number of scuba forums and you'll be posting about his shop selling potentially dangerous tanks to a brand new diver.


You're joking right? Diveshop sold some perfectly legal overpriced tanks to someone who didn't know better. Might not be a good way to run a long term business but thats it.

Should I report a Dive Shop for selling split fins? They could cause a fatality by silting out a cave.

What happened to personal responsibility?

What about a dealer selling tanks that he knows are of an alloy that the new diver may not be able to get filled? That's like me selling a car seat to new parents that I know has a national recall. I understand caveat emptor, but still, there are limitations...

bigman241
06-02-2010, 21:09
I think the alloy issue is why he said he has seen perfect looking tanks fail. :smiley5: It will be ok I will use them for local only and next spring pick up my steel. When the one tank goes out in the late spring I will make a mail box out of it or a lamp. Then when the second one goes dump it. The third is good from what I have read and you guys have said.



I agree with most here ... take them back. If he refuses, let him know you will file a complaint with your local Better Business Bureau, but even more damaging, tell him your a member of a number of scuba forums and you'll be posting about his shop selling potentially dangerous tanks to a brand new diver.


You're joking right? Diveshop sold some perfectly legal overpriced tanks to someone who didn't know better. Might not be a good way to run a long term business but thats it.

Should I report a Dive Shop for selling split fins? They could cause a fatality by silting out a cave.

What happened to personal responsibility?

What about a dealer selling tanks that he knows are of an alloy that the new diver may not be able to get filled? That's like me selling a car seat to new parents that I know has a national recall. I understand caveat emptor, but still, there are limitations...

Diver Kat
06-02-2010, 22:36
I agree with most here ... take them back. If he refuses, let him know you will file a complaint with your local Better Business Bureau, but even more damaging, tell him your a member of a number of scuba forums and you'll be posting about his shop selling potentially dangerous tanks to a brand new diver.


You're joking right? Diveshop sold some perfectly legal overpriced tanks to someone who didn't know better. Might not be a good way to run a long term business but thats it.

Should I report a Dive Shop for selling split fins? They could cause a fatality by silting out a cave.

What happened to personal responsibility?

Actually .... you mis-quoted the post - that post was by me - not chilly willy. And no I was not joking. There's a big difference between selling someone something over priced and selling something that at the least he may not be able to get filled & use, and at the worst, could be potentially dangerous.

As for split fins - have 'em, love 'em, and haven't killed anyone with them yet! :smiley17:

chilly willy
06-03-2010, 04:30
The personal responsibility in this case falls on the shop that sold potentially dangerous tanks that most places refuse to fill to a new diver. Granted, they are still legal to use and fill, BUT if the majority of dive shops won't fill them, what good are they?

bigman241
06-03-2010, 07:39
I am going to call him and go at it like this. Hey I think you might have given me the wrong tanks because these are pre 1988 tanks? Play it off like a mistake and not hey what the ****. Give him a way out and he might take it.

Diver Kat
06-03-2010, 08:47
I am going to call him and go at it like this. Hey I think you might have given me the wrong tanks because these are pre 1988 tanks? Play it off like a mistake and not hey what the ****. Give him a way out and he might take it.
Sounds good! It does usually help to 'play nice' first .... if that doesn't work, you can get mean later! :smiley20:

Noob
06-03-2010, 09:05
I agree, be nice about it. I bought 3 new tanks for 170 each from my LDS, they were having a sale. That was viz and filled.

ianr33
06-03-2010, 17:22
One of the shops in Austin sold off a bunch of its rental tanks a few months back. IIRC they were $80 each and the crappy alloy. Maybe 20 people in line when they opened. Seems some folks will buy anything if its cheap!

Used Al tanks rarely make sense financially. One of the few pieces of dive gear I prefer to buy new.