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Kidder
09-09-2007, 12:07
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070909/ap_on_sc/whale_shot

Is it just me or is this sorta messed up. Ok so they are native Americans and they are allowed to hunt whales. Shouldn't there be at least some rules? Like you must have the right equipment?

WV Diver
09-09-2007, 12:29
This is whack. Someone messed up here.

Charlotte Smith
09-09-2007, 12:41
They used a machine gun!!! Sounds like a bunch of disguised native americans to me.....idiots disguised as native americans.

scuba Widow
09-09-2007, 13:06
This is really messed up.

Osprey
09-09-2007, 14:16
There are no rules that I know of regarding what they have to use to kill the whale, however are machine guns even legal to own? Does anyone know?

Black-Gorrilla
09-09-2007, 14:22
you are allowed to own machine guns now a days... but either way... thats just messed up!
like they were gonna eat the whale or something??
they probly have a casino and tons of cash!

FishFood
09-09-2007, 14:25
No, the question is, is it legal to shoot "Natives" with the machine gun? :D

Only kidding...

picxie
09-09-2007, 19:06
Some people are sick. I don't care what your 'cultural purposes' are ... you don't attack a living creature like that, when common sense would say that a machine gun is likely to inflict lingering pain and suffering, and in this case obviously not immediate death. Hopefully the poor whale is not so badly injured that it can't feed and defend itself out there.

DivingsInMyBlood
09-09-2007, 19:18
There are no rules that I know of regarding what they have to use to kill the whale, however are machine guns even legal to own? Does anyone know?

i think there legal its just the clip size has to be smaller, you cant have a large clip.

Vercingetorix
09-09-2007, 19:22
As a former arms dealer, I'm always leary when the press use the terms "machine gun" and "automatic weapons", unless the weapon is specified. A firearm can be a .50 cal without being an automatic. Unfortunately, the press confuses (often intentionally) the term "full-automatic" or "machine gun" with the real term "autoload" or "semi-automatic".

The Barrett Model 82A1 (http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifle_82.aspx) is a .50 cal sniper rifle. It is a semi-auto, not a full-auto weapon. While the .50 cal can punch a hole through an engine block, it is ill-suited to killing an animal with the thickness of skin and blubber of a whale. Ownership of an M60 (the full-auto military .50-cal weapon) is not permitted under BATF regulations and federal law.

So, was the whale shot with an M60? Unless shot from a military boat or aircraft, then I'm skeptical. If shot with a semi-auto, like a Barrett, then those idiots are incompetent hunters. At over $8,000, I doubt that they could buy a Barrett either

Kidder
09-09-2007, 21:58
As a former arms dealer, I'm always leary when the press use the terms "machine gun" and "automatic weapons", unless the weapon is specified. A firearm can be a .50 cal without being an automatic. Unfortunately, the press confuses (often intentionally) the term "full-automatic" or "machine gun" with the real term "autoload" or "semi-automatic".

The Barrett Model 82A1 (http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifle_82.aspx) is a .50 cal sniper rifle. It is a semi-auto, not a full-auto weapon. While the .50 cal can punch a hole through an engine block, it is ill-suited to killing an animal with the thickness of skin and blubber of a whale. Ownership of an M60 (the full-auto military .50-cal weapon) is not permitted under BATF regulations and federal law.

So, was the whale shot with an M60? Unless shot from a military boat or aircraft, then I'm skeptical. If shot with a semi-auto, like a Barrett, then those idiots are incompetent hunters. At over $8,000, I doubt that they could buy a Barrett either

Either way its its a terribly botched hunt. It sounds like they only wounded it badly. A hunter should have more respect for its prey than that.

Osprey
09-09-2007, 23:37
Interesting Rick, I didn't know that!

Hopefully the whale just had the blubber damaged.. I don't know how well aimed those shots were, only time will tell now

ChrisA
09-09-2007, 23:51
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070909/ap_on_sc/whale_shot

Is it just me or is this sorta messed up. Ok so they are native Americans and they are allowed to hunt whales. Shouldn't there be at least some rules? Like you must have the right equipment?

These really were native Americans and a machine gun would be quite effective. They could have been just some idiots who like to shot things and a whale came along...

But them this could have been a real hunting trip and they were just unlucky. A good way to hunt wales would be to first harpoon the thing and get a line on it then put a few .50 cal rounds through the head. A machine gun would work well. I heard they did have some harpoons. Perhaps this was just a case of screwing up and loosing the wale. Or not killing it cleanly and t dove down to try and get away.

brandon
09-09-2007, 23:52
The Makah group that was conducting whaling out of Neah Bay was using .50 cal bolt action rifles (I think they're using Grizzly Big Bores - might be using Barrett's 50 bolt rifle too)

It's probably a classic case of someone who doesn't know much about firearms making an assumption they shouldn't have. The .50 BMG round was designed for machine guns, true, but it is also available in several different bolt and semi auto designs. I don't think .50 cal is overkill for a whale... if I remember correctly, they chose this round because it was evaluated as the most humane way of quickly dispatching a whale. You need some serious penetration to get through all of that blubber, and if you're aiming for the brain, there's a lot of bone protecting it.

Their old procedure for hunting whales was roughly:

1) Use powerboats to locate the whales.
2) Launch a traditional hunting boat from an assist boat.
3) Manuever the traditional craft next to the whale, harpoon the whale with traditional gear.
4) Using a large caliber rifle, kill the whale.
5) Use divers to attach towing gear and floats to the dead whale
6) Tow the whale in using the support craft
7) When close to shore, use traditional manpower to bring the whale ashore

All that aside though, my opinion has always been that the Makah never went about their cultural whale hunting assertion properly. In this case, it seems they went a step further by defying the court orders preventing them from starting the hunts again.

They screwed up, big time.

-Brandon.

diversteve
09-10-2007, 00:09
brandon is right, "machine gun" was an mis-statement by the reporter:



NEAH BAY, Wash. - The Makah Tribal Council on Sunday denounced the killing of a California gray whale that was harpooned and shot several times off Washington's coast, calling it "a blatant violation of our law" and promising to prosecute those responsible.
But one of the men suspected in the killing told a newspaper Sunday that he was "feeling kind of proud" and whaling is "in the blood."
"We are a law-abiding people, and we will not tolerate lawless conduct by any of our members," the council said in a statement released Sunday.
The U.S. Coast Guard detained five men believed to have killed the whale on Saturday, then turned them over to tribal police for further questioning.
In its statement, the council said the men, whose names it did not release, were booked into the tribe's detention facility and released after posting bail. The council said the men will stand trial in tribal court, but did not set a date.
The American Indian tribe has more than 1,000 members and is based in Neah Bay at Washington's westernmost tip.
Wayne Johnson, captain of the whaling crew that in 1999 legally killed the tribe's first whale in decades, told The Seattle Times that he and four other tribal members plunged at least five steel whaling five harpoons into the animal then shot it with a .460-caliber rifle.
Johnson, 54, said he had no regrets — other than waiting so many years to do it.
"I'm not ashamed," he told The Times in a story the paper posted on its Web site Sunday. "I'm feeling kind of proud. ... I should have done it years ago. I come from a whaling family, on my grandmother's side and my grandfather's side. It's in the blood."
The Makah tribe's treaty rights to hunt whales have been tangled in the courts for several years.
The federal government removed the gray whale from the endangered species list in 1994. Five years later, with a permit from the National Marine Fisheries Service, Makah tribal members killed their first whale in more than 70 years.
Animal welfare activists sued, leading to a court order that the tribe must obtain a waiver under the Marine Mammal Protection Act to continue hunting whales.
John McCarty, a former tribal whaling commission member who has been an advocate of the Makah's right to resume whaling, said the tribe had been working to obtain the waiver and that the process was close to completion.
"I don't know why they did this. It's terrible," McCarty told The Times. "I think the anti-whalers will be after us in full force, and we look ridiculous. Like we can't manage our own people, we can't manage our own whale."
The Times reported that four of the five men detained Saturday took part in the 1999 hunt. All five could face civil penalties of up to $20,000 each and up to a year in jail, said Brian Gorman, a spokesman for the National Marine Fisheries Service.
The whale was headed toward the Pacific Ocean after being wounded and later disappeared beneath the surface, dragging down buoys that had been attached to a harpoon. A biologist for the tribe declared the animal dead, Petty Officer Shawn Eggert said.


Quoted from Yahoo News:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070910/ap_on_re_us/whale_shot_12;_ylt=AubErwpphCKxPucDrc1iyhZxieAA

Krakenn
09-10-2007, 00:10
This sought of thing happens in Australia as well with Aboriginals being able to hunt Dugong I think you yanks call them Manatee.

I have never supported this form of conduct especially where the tribes are allowed to use modern day equipment power boats rifles etc in what is supposedly a tribal custom.

Very sad, then again we allow the hunting of whales by the Japanese under so called scientific research programmes!

Kraks

ianr33
09-10-2007, 07:26
Anybody read the August National Geographic article about the Inuit hunting Narwhals in the Canadian Arctic ?

"I watched a 13 year old boy armed with a .30-06 rifle shooting narwhals all day,wounding many but landing none.Elders stood nearby but said nothing"

If this is actually true then it is seriously messed up and needs changing.

yankeefan21
09-10-2007, 11:56
50 cal? That's crazy. Like Vercingetorix said, though, unless they were using a weapon "acquired" from the military, it probably wasn't a "machine gun."

Still - stupid STUPID act.

creggur
09-10-2007, 12:13
So it's a tribal tradition, and "in the blood"....hmmmm

So is using a High powered rifle in the tribal tradition?
Do they have any need what-so-ever to hunt a whale?
If not a "need" would it be used productively or was this just a "trophy" hunt because it's "in the blood"?

Seems silly and unnecessary to me...

diverdad
09-10-2007, 20:45
as an avid hunter and fisherman my entire life. i do not condone this type of "hunting". what would they do with the whale if they killed it eat it ( i don't think so), sell it ( that is illegal(like that would stop them)) or just throw it away and brag about it ( probable this is what would happen).
in all my years of hunting i made sure i used the proper caliber weapon and made sure that if i was going to shoot that i had a good kill shot or i would not shoot at all.

i want to apologize for this rant. this kind of behavior gives NATIVE AMERICANS the image of being blood thirsty morons and me being of native america desent it really makes me mad.

Kidder
09-10-2007, 20:53
as an avid hunter and fisherman my entire life. i do not condone this type of "hunting". what would they do with the whale if they killed it eat it ( i don't think so), sell it ( that is illegal(like that would stop them)) or just throw it away and brag about it ( probable this is what would happen).
in all my years of hunting i made sure i used the proper caliber weapon and made sure that if i was going to shoot that i had a good kill shot or i would not shoot at all.

i want to apologize for this rant. this kind of behavior gives NATIVE AMERICANS the image of being blood thirsty morons and me being of native america desent it really makes me mad.

Well said Diverdad. It was my point as well. A hunter owes it to the prey to be well equiped well trained and to only take the shot when they are sure. They also owe it to their prey to have a real reason to be hunting them in the first place.