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scubastud
08-03-2010, 08:50
... for once, I am speechless.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_ground_zero_mosque

bennerman
08-03-2010, 09:29
Please tell me you about losing the landmark, and not the fact that it is a mosque :v

bennerman
08-03-2010, 09:56
I have checked Google Maps, there are more Christian churches in the holy land than there are mosques in the United States (though they are lacking in Synagogues, if you want to make an arguement out of that). In fact, the Greater Toronto Area has about as many Mosques as all of America. Furthermore, Muslims have been harassed by Christians for the better part of 1000 years, while you have been dealing with this "injustice" for 20 years... ok, lets round up and call it 100 years. I would say they have been pretty good sports this whole time, can't you? Furthermore, you ain't at war with Muslims, you are at war with terrorists. The Columbine shooting, for example, could be called a terrorist attack, but they ain't Muslims. Nor are you at war with Afghanistan.

rayaa3
08-03-2010, 10:42
I say let em build it. I blame all Muslims for the terrorist acts of 9/11 about as much as I blame Christians for the acts those who enact terrorism against planned parenthood/abortion clinics.

I guess it doesn't bother me because the 9/11 attackers are to Muslims, as this joker is to Christians...

USATODAY.com - Rudolph, unsorry, gets life for abortion clinic bombing (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-17-rudolph-monday-sentencing_x.htm)

Does this guy represent Christianity? He doesn't for me.

SlvrDragon50
08-03-2010, 11:26
I agree with Bennerman.. If you're opposed to the construction of a mosque.. I don't even know what to say, it'd go along the lines of "I'm disappointed in you," though.

bennerman
08-03-2010, 11:29
If they were opposed because they believe it to be a heritage site, it would be understandable, but when you would feel more comfortable with a McDonald's being built there instead of a Mosque, that is a problem

chinacat46
08-03-2010, 11:31
Yeah I say let them build it too. It wasn't Muslims that attacked on 9/11 it was terrorists. Banning this would be like banning a church near the OK City site because Timothy McVeigh was a Catholic.

TJDiver
08-03-2010, 13:51
Yeah I say let them build it too. It wasn't Muslims that attacked on 9/11 it was terrorists. Banning this would be like banning a church near the OK City site because Timothy McVeigh was a Catholic.

Not really...Rome's citizens did not dance in the streets upon the news of that incident. I would have to question the motives behind any muslim group deciding to put a mosque on that particular location, as anyone that's not lived in a cave the last decade would have to be fully aware of the sensitivites surrounding that area. Tolerance and understanding should go both ways...and, I find the muslim faith to demonstrate little of either towards anything outside their own. And FYI, I'm not advocating any religion over another, as I have little use for any of them.

Godfather1138
08-03-2010, 14:26
The point here is that the events were acted out in the name of a specific religion. It did not reflect everyone's opinion from that religion, but it was point blank religion based. For that religion to walk in and invoke such a presence in this place is in bad taste and shows very little respect for the victims of of those events.

You'll notice I speak vaguely about this b/c I would feel the same regardless of the religion involved. If a large militant Christian organization acted out in this way, and then the Southern Baptist Convention decided they wanted to build a VERY LARGE church near the site I would vote against it as it would be insensitive to the victims and their families. I say this speaking on my own religion as a Christian.

I will say that I would like to know more about the facility they are building though as I have heard mention of a community center with a mosque somewhere in the building. If this is a site that's primary intent is to give back to the community, the WHOLE community not just serving Muslims, then I can totally see it as a valid attempt to show the area that the terror events are not a representation of the Muslim community.

bennerman, I find your church vs mosque argument hard to follow as MANY Muslim areas make non-Muslim religions ILLEGAL, and that is about as far from a good example as you can give. You specifically state "The Holy Land" but that region is not a complete view of Muslim countries as it has a heavy history of both Christian and Muslim influences. I do see your point, but if I have to fear for my life when traveling with my Holy Bible I would consider that as very one sided POV, and not a good example for why we need to allow the building without asking questions.

Sorry if this came off as a rant. I hope that you guys can understand that I am very open minded, but also tired of the expectation that the US should sit back and be PC about everything all the time. Sometimes you have to hurt someone's feelings to retain your personal beliefs and morals... the Muslim countries seem to get this better than we do (we = the US not a religion based statement)

bennerman
08-03-2010, 14:40
According to the map, Afghanistan is the only country in the Middle East a Christian church on it, atleast that I can see.

rayaa3
08-03-2010, 14:43
OK, things are about to get dicey here...

Well - I guess that really sums up the problem doesn't it. The folks that were filmed dancing on 9/11 were Palestinian.

You might have seen dancing if:

1) The Catholics were fighting for the vatican city to be it's own state (which it is)

2) Italy was opposing the formation of Vaticay City within it's borders.

3) USA had a history of supplying Italy with arms and technology, as well as political support

In that scenario - you might expect to see at least a few catholics in Vatican city dancing. They would be wrong to do it, in the eyes of the Catholics I was raised and taught by - but you might see it.

Any way you slice it up - this is no easy problem.

However - at the end of the day - PALESTINE DOES NOT EQUATE ALL MUSLIMS. I'm not even sure I can't understand some of the Palestinian's side of the issue, but it doesn't really matter. The method of war being carried out isn't one I agree with.

There are many Muslims of many nationalities who do not subscribe to terrorism. The simple fact is that those Muslims don't sell commercial time on television.

Godfather1138
08-03-2010, 14:55
Any way you slice it up - this is no easy problem.

Truth, and it always will be no matter what side you are on.


There are many Muslims of many nationalities who do not subscribe to terrorism. The simple fact is that those Muslims don't sell commercial time on television.

Also truth, but one would hope that they, the MAJORITY of Muslims who are against the actions of terror, would understand why placing a mosque in this location is a bad idea. Again, I will expand that statement by saying that the building may be much more than just a mosque, and could be a great asset to the community. Unfortunately the only thing our ratings based news organizations are focusing on is the mosque so as far as I can tell that is exactly what it is (I have been trying to search for more info)

FishFood
08-03-2010, 15:01
. Furthermore, Muslims have been harassed by Christians for the better part of 1000 years, while you have been dealing with this "injustice" for 20 years..

Oh good. A history lesson from a 16 year old. Do tell all what you have studied to come to this (rather stupid) conclusion? I have a big problem with this Mosque being close to ground zero as well as the vast majority of the Islam's 'peaceful' existence in the word.


Better move this thread to the Hot Topic area in a hurry. Ill be back this evening to here what you kids have to say.

bennerman
08-03-2010, 15:03
What does my age have to do with anything in this issue? Screw it, if this is what I am going to have to deal with the debate a point, I ain't gunna do it. I'm out.

FishFood
08-03-2010, 15:07
Again...

What have you studied to come to your conclusions? You're age has a lot to do with your world view, life experiences, and education.

EDIT-

And while Im the first to say it... Im sure many others are thinking it. Tact just isn't my specialty.

BRsnow
08-03-2010, 17:40
Again...

What have you studied to come to your conclusions? You're age has a lot to do with your world view, life experiences, and education.

EDIT-


And while Im the first to say it... Im sure many others are thinking it. Tact just isn't my specialty.


I don' t think lack of tact is your issue, perhaps lack of knowledge but not tact(simple study of history will provide numerous examples for you, recently look to Ireland for non-Muslim terror, but you can find a whole bunch for hundreds of years)...Having lived in lower Manhattan for 9/11 and helped with the clean up and feeding ground zero workers, and being part of NYC healing...I doubt you will find very many people in NYC who oppose it. Plenty of people clearly drive there to protest no doubt. It is illogical and un-American to oppose it. Sounds like people think the USA is a Christian nation...lol...BR

scubastud
08-03-2010, 19:10
OKEE now I speak.

Ground zero... this is the new holy land for them. It will be legendary...their great grandchildren can come to the glorious mosque and revel of the wonderous day when mohammed's messengers laid waste to an infidel symbol of evil and capitalism and all things non islam.A day when islam won a great victory over the non believing monkey-pigs.

Why the f else are they working so hard to build there.. of all f'ing places. ground zero. no monument to those that were murdered, or the many many rescue professionals that gave their lives , but... a mosque. a fing mosque.

Make no mistake, this is why it is being built.

SEMO Scuba
08-03-2010, 19:13
I think a Mosque at ground zero is inappropriate. I think it is like throwing gas on a fire that still has a spark. What do you think will happen if some over the edge Muslin hater burns it down or blows it up?

Splitlip
08-03-2010, 19:24
This entire discussion further proves that the way we live has forever changed.

10 years ago, there would not have been a word about a Mosque anywhere in Manhattan. While I do not blame Muslims, as believers in a faith, for what happened that day anymore than I blame my parish priest for the Spanish Inquisition, I suspect the local clerics and leaders are being manipulated into doing this to push our collective buttons.

Splitlip
08-03-2010, 19:25
I think a Mosque at ground zero is inappropriate. I think it is like throwing gas on a fire that still has a spark. What do you think will happen if some over the edge Muslin hater burns it down or blows it up?

I suspect that is the plan.

BRsnow
08-03-2010, 19:28
A mosque in that area is not out of the norm, it is part of an area where global commerce takes place and people of all faiths do business on a daily basis. They all have the right to prayer in the USA, that is what makes the country great. It is also an area with an extremely diverse population that lives there. It fits in there as much as any other place of prayer does. The only ones making a big deal of this are those against it...BR

Smashee
08-03-2010, 19:35
They all have the right to prayer in the USA, that is what makes the country great.

I think this has been forgotten somewhere along the way.

bigman241
08-03-2010, 19:56
I am conflicted about this. Right or wrong people affected directly by the 9/11 attacks have a right to push for this not to happen. Do I think it should no, but I do not care it is about it being Muslims building a mosque . I care that it is spitting in the face of the survivers and their families. I question the reasoning behind it. the state and fed governments are looking hard at them now and where the money is coming from. They had the leader of this project talking about how the actions of the US are at fault for the attacks :smiley5:. They want to build it there because they want to spit in the face of our country and what we stand for.

Though I think it is wrong for the gov. to tell me people how and where they can pray. The sad thing is when some stupid *** blows the place up and we all look bad.

Are we at war with Muslims YOU BET and if you do not think so your stupid. Are we at war with every Muslim NO and if you think so well your stupid.

We are not techinqly at war with Afghanistan but we where. WE INVADED THEM FOR GOD SAKES. The new afghan gov. is now our alias, though the afghan pres told the news if we stopped supporting his corrupt government he would join the Taliban

alpha
08-03-2010, 20:05
Al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda)

Strategy to the year 2020


On March 11, 2005, Al-Quds Al-Arabi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_Al-Arabi) published extracts from Saif al-Adel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saif_al-Adel)'s document "Al Quaeda's Strategy to the Year 2020".[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#cite_note-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#cite_note-16) Abdel Bari Atwan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdel_Bari_Atwan) summarizes this strategy as comprising five stages:


Provoke the United States into invading a Muslim country.
Incite local resistance to occupying forces.
Expand the conflict to neighboring countries and engage the US in a long war of attrition.
Convert Al Qaeda into an ideology and set of operating principles that can be loosely franchised in other countries without requiring direct command and control, and via these franchises incite attacks against countries allied with the US until they withdraw from the conflict, as happened with the 2004 Madrid train bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings), but which did not have the same effect with the 7 July 2005 London bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings).
The U.S. economy will finally collapse under the strain of too many engagements in too many places, similarly to the Soviet war in Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan), Arab regimes supported by the US will collapse, and a Wahhabi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi) Caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate) will be installed across the region....

************************************************** ********
On February 23, 1998, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri), a leader of Egyptian Islamic Jihad, along with three other Islamist leaders, co-signed and issued a fatwa (binding religious edict) calling on Muslims to kill Americans and their allies where they can, when they can.[71] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#cite_note-70) Under the banner of the World Islamic Front for Combat Against the Jews and Crusaders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Islamic_Front) they declared:
[T]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque [in Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [in Makka] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#cite_note-71)

scubastud
08-03-2010, 20:11
snow, it is obvious you will believe what you chose to believe, perhaps this is a defense mechanism you have, or perhaps you are muslim, whatever reason your mind is made up and nothing will open your eyes, I can see this now.... but you cannot convince me that the proposed site has nothing to do with it being ground zero. I am not that stupid.

BRsnow
08-03-2010, 20:19
snow, it is obvious you will believe what you chose to believe, perhaps this is a defense mechanism you have, or perhaps you are muslim, whatever reason your mind is made up and nothing will open your eyes, I can see this now.... but you cannot convince me that the proposed site has nothing to do with it being ground zero. I am not that stupid.

Having lived in NYC for 9/11 and experienced it, living in Israel from 03-05 during the intense period of the intefatah I have seen a serious amount of terror and needless death of innocent people. I understand a good amount of what is going on and have first hand experienced with the hate some people feel for other people based totally on misguided ideology. I fight for what I believe is right and have strong convictions, but I will not become one of the people who hate based on misguided ideology...that is the heart of the problem to begin with. Being misguided doesn't make you stupid, it makes you dangerous...BR

scubastud
08-03-2010, 20:29
I agree. Those that are blind to the eforts to make ground zero a holy sacred land are indeed misguided and dangerous.

BRsnow
08-03-2010, 20:37
I think because of what took place there, ground zero is sacred and holy, regardless of what you think. I also spent time at Pearl Harbor and other places disasters have taken place and feel as though there an element of sacred and holy to those areas...I don't find it dangerous or misguided at all....BR


p.s. I think Oklahoma City's memorial is sacred and holy as well even though an American Christian did it, I also do not think if a Church was opened there it would be to celebrate McVeigh's actions...I realize this is not in line with your thoughts and feelings though...

FishFood
08-03-2010, 21:12
I don' t think lack of tact is your issue, perhaps lack of knowledge but not tact(simple study of history will provide numerous examples for you, recently look to Ireland for non-Muslim terror, but you can find a whole bunch for hundreds of years)

Funny since you have no earthly idea my knowledge level.


Trying to say that McVeigh was a Christian would be like pointing to a middle eastern terrorist that had turned away from Islam and calling he or she a religious Muslim.
Anyhow...

Ill have to pull up an old thesis of mine for the stats and sources, but the number of American mosques connected with radical middle eastern idiologs is hair raising. And the estimated number yet that are actively recruiting young people to send over seas is even more problematic. I have no problem with the faith itself, but with the leadership (such as CAIR and other American Islamic organizations) that are not simply peaceful religious groups. I look at the islamification of the EU for example of what is to come over here. The radicalization of young people coming out of many of these mosques.


As for Churches in the middle east, I recently finished 'Children of Jihad' which mentioned not only a Church in Iran, but a synagogue as well! This would back up the claim that Christian missionaries have told me that the people of Iran are very friendly and hospitable, but that the government and Mosque elders where not only radical but trying to push that on others.

So whether there is a problem with the religion itself or a world wide leadership conspiracy using Islam as a tool to promote their agenda... it concerns me... And from what I have read, this Mosque is not one of the "good ones". It especially concerns me that CAIR is not only backing it but very much pushing it's existence. In an middle eastern country a so called "Christian Attack" would never be followed up by building a church. I recognize that this is what makes America great.... But not at the cost of home grown radicalization and brain washing.


NOTE - This message was typed quickly in my off time. Some errors and/or just plain crappy syntax may be present.

EDIT -

And snow I do understand what you're saying. I partially agree and hit on some points, although not sure if I directly responded to most of your posts or even stayed on topic. Ill come back and read over tomorrow.

scubastud
08-03-2010, 21:20
I'm done here. Now I am labelled a hater.. sigh

All I ask is why ground zero?

bennerman
08-03-2010, 21:23
I never called you a hater, your style of debate just differs too greatly from mine, and I am just not good at debating that kind. We have to agree to disagree on this one, no more and no less. I understand your reasons, and you seem to be smart enough to at least understand and respect mine.

alpha
08-03-2010, 21:34
BRsnow:
P.S. I think Oklahoma City's memorial is sacred and holy as well even though an American Christian did it, I also do not think if a Church was opened there it would be to celebrate McVeigh's actions..

************************************************** *********
My Question:::Why do you try to compare one person's individual thought up & carried out bombing to Al-Qaeda pleading to Muslims around the world "to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it."

There is no comparison between one individual originating a terrible act vs. masses being asked to cause terrible acts & often doing so across the world. "Al-Qaeda has carried out a total of six major terrorist attacks, four of them in its jihad against America."

Yes, One person on their own will go crazy occasionally. However, the odds that the leader of Al-Qaeda will convince one of his followers to go crazy & kill others after Al-Qaeda openly advocating this, is Far Greater. And yes Al-Qaeda thinks their followers are Muslims as is stated in my quote. I have not heard of any suicide boomers being anything other than Muslim that worked for Al-Qaeda. Are we wrong Br???

If you were working the airport and the call comes in that someone associated with Al-Qaeda is believed to have a bomb on their body; I bet even you would check the people claiming to be Muslim first as that is what Al-Qaeda says their members believe in. That's just how it is. It's stated in writing both before & after the attacks.

P.S. I know all Muslims will not associate with Al-Qaeda and I know all Christians will not try to bomb Oklahoma buildings. The difference is I see no large Christian group openly or privately advocatiing this while I do see a large Muslim group advocating the destruction of people as quoted; Thus I see no reason to keep trying to link the current problem of Al-Qaeda calling on Muslims to join the killing Fatwa call and one person's randomly concocted crazy actions.

BRsnow
08-03-2010, 21:48
That is because you rationalize it to agree with your position. In Ireland not too long ago plenty of terror amongst Christians...The internet allows all sorts of messages to be sent. If you spend some time searching and emailing what you find on American faith based hate groups you will find a ton of material...not just one person as you claim. It is just a matter of what message you want to propagate for the most part...Al-Qaeda is just better at PR at the moment, but with the current sentiment against freedoms in the USA, who knows the McVeighs's of this country might just number more than one you claim....BR

alpha
08-03-2010, 22:09
That is because you rationalize it to agree with your position.
MY ANSWER::: Thanks, now I know your just Playing a Debate Game.:smiley2:


In Ireland not too long ago plenty of terror amongst Christians...The internet allows all sorts of messages to be sent. If you spend some time searching and emailing what you find on American faith based hate groups you will find a ton of material...not just one person as you claim.
My Answer::: You've got to be kidding, why didn't the conspiracy make the paper like Al-Qaeda? I don't really think you believe yourself but I see your having fun trying to debate....

It is just a matter of what message you want to propagate for the most part...Al-Qaeda is just better at PR at the moment,
My Answer:::PR department needs a raise? Perhaps fire Mcveighs, if still alive?

but with the current sentiment against freedoms in the USA, who knows the McVeighs's of this country
My Answer:::Those little rascals got COOKED (injected & died June 10, 2001)....

might just number more than one you claim....BR
My Answer:::The roaches in his little pockets died too when his remains were cremated ....

Give it up BR, it's not too believable....

bennerman
08-03-2010, 22:14
Everyone needs to calm the **** down and get off each other's throats. This forum ain't for drama, it is for diving and fun. I have to deal with this with everyone I hang out with for chrissake, so calm down.

alpha
08-03-2010, 22:19
BR, perhaps a new thread on "current sentiment against freedoms in the USA,"...

Seems what your interested in and trying to incorportate vs. actual facts of Al-Qaeda consisting of 100% Muslims per Al-Qaeda sources.

If Al-Qaeda says they are going to walk in and bomb a building, double check all Muslims; it's just common sense, not sentiment against religious freedoms or other freedoms.

BRsnow
08-03-2010, 23:36
BR, perhaps a new thread on "current sentiment against freedoms in the USA,"...

Seems what your interested in and trying to incorportate vs. actual facts of Al-Qaeda consisting of 100% Muslims per Al-Qaeda sources.

If Al-Qaeda says they are going to walk in and bomb a building, double check all Muslims; it's just common sense, not sentiment against religious freedoms or other freedoms.

Not common sense at all...That would be like not allowing Priest near children because of their recent track record. Al-Qaeda speaks for Al-Qaeda, not muslims, just like all priests probably are not child molester regardless of the Church protecting them and the numerous cases of abuse..it would seem common sense is in short supply and what does this have to do with a mosque at ground zero?

Godfather1138
08-04-2010, 07:55
Having heard a lot more talk on this subject, I am shocked at how many people that are for the mosque jump on the argument that the people against it are against a mosque period and they are pounding the religious freedom lines. They are trying to make the other side out like they are trying to suppress religious freedoms and are un-American. WHAT??? No one said they couldn't build a mosque somewhere else, just that it was a bad idea to build it so close to such a negative event from this country's history that is so closely tied to that religion.

SlvrDragon50
08-04-2010, 11:46
It's primarily tied to the Wahabi sect of Islam though... and they are quite the radicals.

Largo
08-04-2010, 20:08
I agree with the liberals.

Muslims and Christians are equally deadly and evil.

Muslims use bombs and airplanes.

Christians are more insidious. They use Crock Pots filled with evil things such as; Li'l Smokeys swimming in Barbecue Sauce, and that thing where they melt a container of Velveta and mix in ground pork, ground beef, and Rotel. They also try to kill you with some nasty concoction called "Mississippi Mud."

Davetowz
08-04-2010, 21:20
I concur w/ Largo. that is the extent of my political input in a forum I go to for a hobby I love.

scubastud
08-05-2010, 05:36
Me too Dave who started this dang post anyhew?

And Largo...I agree with you about Mississippi Mud Pie... but what a way to go!

TJDiver
08-05-2010, 06:08
Me too Dave who started this dang post anyhew?

And Largo...I agree with you about Mississippi Mud Pie... but what a way to go!

Oh yeah...that stuff is pure evil! :smiley20:

chinacat46
08-05-2010, 14:36
My Take: The Jewish case for the ground zero mosque – Religion - CNN.com Blogs (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/05/my-take-the-jewish-case-for-the-ground-zero-mosque/?hpt=C2)

scubastud
08-05-2010, 18:37
My Take: The Jewish case for the ground zero mosque – Religion - CNN.com Blogs (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/05/my-take-the-jewish-case-for-the-ground-zero-mosque/?hpt=C2)

Read his scenario, but he missed one point. In his fictional story, the jews didn't bomb the crap out of downtown Dearborn, killing thousands of muslims and then demand to build a temple over the ruins to glorify the victory there..

Lulubelle
08-05-2010, 19:33
Definitely a hot topic, and having had a rough week, I'll not comment on the plans for building a Mosque on this site as I am truly not informed on all of the issues around this plan. Personally, I would like to see a center for all faiths right on the site. We are more alike than we are different.

But I would like to offer up a bit of wisdom in response to some of the related comments made here about Islam. I am a Christian. I read the Bible. But I have taken the time to study all of the major world religions, I have read parts of the Koran, and I cannot tolerate the wholesale indictment of a faith based on the actions of a few who have bastardized their faith to wage their war. History makes it quite clear that nearly every war against a people has been fought in the name of one of the major world religions. None of them are free of this taint. Not mine, not yours. In no case have these actions been true to the callings of the religion being used as justification for war against a people. But if you study other faiths you begin to understand that these faiths all call their people to similar practices. Did you know that Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism? When I moved back to NC in the 1990s, I told my friends I was going to find myself a good old boy with a PhD and a truck. My first beau was not exactly that. He was a Muslim man from Morocco. I am thankful that I had occasion to learn about Islam before Sept 11 happened so that I could see it for what it was.

This documentary, "In God's Name" shown on CBS a while back, is truly powerful and eye opening if anyone cares to get a copy. It is a beautiful piece and a nice introduction to the commonalities in the major world religions. It was very powerful. I can't believe they managed to interview everyone they did. I think they are for sale on the internet somewhere. Here is a You Tube trailer for it. YouTube - ‪In God's Name‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv9Pkoev-KQ)

Here is a quote from a Sunni Muslim leader. I'd have to agree.

"People of all faiths and homelands are divided into reasonable and unreasonable people.
All that I wish and pray to God for is that the reasonable people would outnumber the fools."

Largo
08-05-2010, 19:48
Except for a small number of people, Americans remind me of domestic animals.

(But, to be fair; Europeans remind me of processed animal bi-product.)

FFDiver
08-06-2010, 20:47
Here is a response from a class I am taking online through a major university no I wont say which one but I stay pissed every time I read it. All I can say is how could a true American even make such a statement!!!

Hello class,
Great discussion. Now that our discussion is drawing to a close, let me share why I think each of these statements is an opinion.

The people who bombed the World Trade Center on 9-11-01 were terrorists.

First of all we have no proof about who bombed the WTC so we can’t make any factual statements about why they did it. Secondly, in some parts of the world, these people were heroes. It is strictly an opinion about whether or not they were terrorists

mitsuguy
08-06-2010, 22:58
I'd have to know more about the specific plans, but, I guess I kinda agree with the fact that this is just an insensitive place to do something like this...

Not to pick on the youngins that are so one sided about the need for religious freedom, but, as soon as ya'll grow up a little and have a little more experience in the world, I feel your views may change, or at least not be so one sided.

I sit and look at this argument, and I agree completely there is nothing wrong with a mosque being built in the US, and I agree completely that not all muslims are bad people. However, I do believe that it is being insensitive to build something that has strong ties to what caused the original attack...

The terrorists are the ones that are making this look bad for other muslims, but, problem is, you don't see a lot of muslims waging war against the terrorists... Perhaps there is more of that going on than I see / notice, but it just doesn't seem like it. Again, being uninformed here a little, but, I don't believe any other religious groups are planning on huge churches there, are there???

Unfortunately, it goes like this: All terrorists are muslims, but not all muslims are terrorists. How do you stop all the terrorists - simple, stop all the muslims. Sure, you get all the honest ones as well, but, when a terrorist group tries to use a religion as their reason for terror, it just gives them all a bad name. Again, nothing wrong with your every day honest muslim, its just a stereotype that the terrorists have given them...

FFDiver - that is clearly the writings of a conspiracy theorist... That, and/or, they are basing the word terrorists on what opinion people hold of the ones actually inflicting damage, where, they just don't understand the dictionary definition. A terrorist is someone who terrorizes or frightens others - this is not an opinion, but a fact, that the people who flew the planes into the buildings were terrorists, whether you were the one cheering, or the one crying that day, those people are terrorists because they instilled fear in a large portion of the world... You should respond to that post with something along those lines - whoever wrote that clearly can't read a dictionary or know the definition of the word - or, possibly, they are too jaded by their own beliefs to even consider that it isn't an opinion based term...

Quero
08-10-2010, 09:43
Here is a quote from a Sunni Muslim leader. I'd have to agree.

"People of all faiths and homelands are divided into reasonable and unreasonable people.
All that I wish and pray to God for is that the reasonable people would outnumber the fools."

Thanks for that Lulubelle. I am dismayed by the plans of one group of "unreasonable" Christians:
Church plans Quran-burning event (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/07/29/florida.burn.quran.day/index.html?iref=NS1#fbid=ohyOBiy7Sv0&wom=false)
It's this kind of thing that adds fuel to animosities and promotes lack of understanding and respect.

Rileybri
08-10-2010, 09:47
Mosque or not (I for one think its very dangerous ground to be legislating what religion can practice where and when. but that is just to hot a topic to go into.) I want to know what real estate agent/developer looked at the imams needs and said "Hay I got just the place for you!". lol

Godfather1138
08-10-2010, 10:25
I for one think its very dangerous ground to be legislating what religion can practice where and when.You mean like regulating prayer in schools?

DMWiz
08-10-2010, 11:16
Merely calling oneself a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist does not make it so anymore than putting on a cape and wearing underwear over your pants makes you superman!

Someone much smarter than I am once said, "Your freedom ends where mine begins" The lives lost during 9/11 and their memory should be the prevailing thought behind whatever is built on that site. Not anyone's political or religious agenda, but that would make too much sense to become reality.

Godfather1138
08-10-2010, 11:48
does not make it so anymore than putting on a cape and wearing underwear over your pants makes you superman!
Crap :icon_cry: Guess I can return the cape now and spend that money on dive gear.


The lives lost during 9/11 and their memory should be the prevailing thought behind whatever is built on that site. Not anyone's political or religious agenda, but that would make too much sense to become reality.
Agreed, this country has become so concerned with being politically correct that we are literally losing ourselves in the process.

Rileybri
08-10-2010, 12:23
You me like regulating prayer in schools?

so long as the State is funding the school then yes. Legislating where a church, mosque, synagogue ect. gets built (assuming there are no zoning issues) is a very different thing then prayer/religion in public school.

DMWiz
08-10-2010, 12:47
Crap :icon_cry: Guess I can return the cape now and spend that money on dive gear.


Also, please put the underwear back inside where it belongs... And I don't mean showing with your pants on the ground either!

Godfather1138
08-10-2010, 14:21
*singing* (kinda)
Pants on the ground
Pants on the ground
Lookin' like a fool with your pants on the ground

With the gold in your mouth
Hat turned sideways
Pants hit the ground
Call yourself a cool cat
Lookin' like a fool
Walkin' downtown with your pants on the ground

Get it up, hey!
Get your pants off the ground
Lookin' like a fool
Walkin' talkin' with your pants on the ground.

Get it up, hey!
Get your pants off the ground
Lookin' like a fool with your pants on the ground

:smilie39:

And I'll put the underwear back UNDER my clothes, but I'm keeping the bright red ones...GO HOGS! ;)

bennerman
08-10-2010, 14:29
crap :icon_cry: Guess i can return the cape now and spend that money on dive gear..
...
...
...
...
...
How much is that cape that its value can viably be spent on dive gear?!

Rileybri
08-10-2010, 14:31
*singing* (kinda)
Pants on the ground
Pants on the ground
Lookin' like a fool with your pants on the ground

With the gold in your mouth
Hat turned sideways
Pants hit the ground
Call yourself a cool cat
Lookin' like a fool
Walkin' downtown with your pants on the ground

Get it up, hey!
Get your pants off the ground
Lookin' like a fool
Walkin' talkin' with your pants on the ground.

Get it up, hey!
Get your pants off the ground
Lookin' like a fool with your pants on the ground

:smilie39:

And I'll put the underwear back UNDER my clothes, but I'm keeping the bright red ones...GO HOGS! ;)

Thank you for that reality check we needed it!

Godfather1138
08-10-2010, 14:48
Had to lighten the mood a bit, I don't have access to "Hot Topics" yet and I didn't want to end up missing any of the discussion ;)


How much is that cape that its value can viably be spent on dive gear?! I out grew towels and bed sheets a long time ago. If I'm going to impersonate a superhero I'm gonna do it right!

John Yaskowich
08-18-2010, 07:28
In an interesting twist on the Ground Zero Mosque -
Fox News Host Announces Plans for Muslim Gay Bar Next to Ground Zero Mosque | VF Daily | Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2010/08/post-34.html)
Fox News Host Announces Plans for a Muslim Gay Bar next to Ground Zero Mosque

Important news in the annals of publicity stunts today, as Fox News’ Greg Gutfeld announced on his blog—the truly unfortunately named “Daily Gut”—that he has aims to open a Ground Zero–area gay bar catering to Muslim men in the space next to a proposed mosque. “As you know, the Muslim faith doesn't look kindly upon homosexuality, which is why I’m building this bar. It is an effort to break down barriers and reduce deadly homophobia in the Islamic world,”

:smilie40::smilie40:

bennerman
08-18-2010, 09:06
yeah I heard, frankly I find it hilarious :D