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Gonnagettanked
08-18-2010, 12:13
I'm still very worried about this drill in open water. You might say obsessed.
Practicing in the pool isin't a problem because let's face it anyone can exhale for 30 yards.
But 30-40 ft.? My DI has explained that as you ascend the air molecules will expand
increasing the volume of air in your lungs, so you'll have enough air to continue exhaling and even have enough when you break the surface. Ok sounds good. Too good to be true! I've tried to deeply inhale and slowy and steadily exhale and I can't imagine having enough air to possibly do this. Truth be told if I'm that far down and I have run out of air my survival instinct will be to make a b-line to the surface which I know I'm not supposed to do. Can anyone help me out?
Also, do you actually do this drill at 40 feet?

ScubaToys Larry
08-18-2010, 12:31
Ok, you say anyone can for 30 yards... that's 90 feet! Really, 40 feet, if you are going nice and slow, that's 40 seconds. So take a big breath, and make a light humming sound... Can you do it for 40 seconds?? If so.. easy... If not... Still easy.

Air molecules will not expand. Hopefully he didn't actually say that...

But at 33 feet, you have twice as much air as they are pushed closer together. So there is more air, and the volume will want to expand as you ascent, but the molecules themselves.. not going to change.

Anyway, yes, you will be able to make that humming sound longer as you ascend then just sitting there. Don't sweat it.

And normally done from about 20 feet in training... maybe 30... but I doubt he'll have you do 40.

TJDiver
08-18-2010, 12:37
When I originally certified back in '84, I think we did it from 30 - 40 feet with the reg out of our mouths. When I took the NAUI OW class again with my son last year during his certification, we did this drill from only 25 feet with the reg in our mouths. Neither approach was an issue for me, but I've grown up around the water, and am very comfortable in the water. Your instructor is correct...the air in your lungs will expand as you ascend, and you will not feel as compelled to "get to the surface" as you might think. At least, that was my experience...others' mileage may vary. :smiley2: The most important thing you can do, is to discuss your concerns with your instructor, and let him/her know of your apprehension.

Gonnagettanked
08-18-2010, 13:28
Larry, Just goes to show you how nervous I am to do this drill. 30 yards! try 30 feet. I did try to count to 40 and I only got to about 25 and that was sitting.. I guess maybe the real ? is as I exhaust my air how can I still continue to exhale? Does air just magically appear? sorry for the sarcasim, I've always been a little cautious when I hear "trust me".

To TJ I was told the DI will shut our cylinders with this drill so the regs will not be of much help.
As my husband who is also about to do his ow dives says "they're not about to let us drown" I sure hope he's right:)

Da Wolf
08-18-2010, 13:36
Of all the drills we did on OW, that was the one that scared me the most. We were informed that this drill/skill was going to be done on a certain dive, and when it was time he reached over turned the air in my tank off. He held onto you until you ran out of air from your reg, then you were on your own. We were told to dump all weights and keep reg in your mouth (so you don't suck in water) and hum (blowing small bubbles as we went to the surface). I did this drill in 30 feet of water, that was the longest 30 foot swim I have ever done. Would I want to go through that again? NO!! Am I glad they showed/taught us this skill? YES! One thing to remember, don't panic (which is hard to do with no air), relax, and run through the procedure through your head on what your suppose to do so you don't forget anything. Our DI told us before going in the water, "If you forget to do anything during this drill, you will do it again until you don't forget." What pleasant words to say before doing this drill. Good luck and don't sweat it. Believe it or not, you will have enough air to make it to the surface. Air doesn't just appear in your lungs, but you find some from some where. lol But you WILL be completely out of air when you hit the surface. Your lungs may even hurt from blowing all the air out. But again don't sweat it, and the more thought you put into this drill, the more scared and panic you get when it is time for you to do it.

emclean
08-18-2010, 13:39
when i did mine, we were at twenty feet, reg in. i had to do it twice, first time i AHHHHH'ed to hard, and hand to suck in a breath. DM shook his head at me, said to do it softer, and we did it again.
i found the anticipation was worce than the drill.

remember during the drill there is air there, grab your (if you have to remove it) or grab your DM's octo before panic comes on.


get reg out of mouth and hum
any idea why he wanted you to drop your reg? my DM told us to keep the reg in cause in a real OOA it is better to suck on nothing, rather than sucking in water

Da Wolf
08-18-2010, 13:50
any idea why he wanted you to drop your reg? my DM told us to keep the reg in cause in a real OOA it is better to suck on nothing, rather than sucking in water

Sorry typed wrong was thinking something else. Fixed.


grab your (if you have to remove it) or grab your DM's octo before panic comes on.

Your DI swam up with you?? Mine stayed at the 30 foot platform. Lazy SOB.

DMWiz
08-18-2010, 14:02
any idea why he wanted you to drop your reg? my DM told us to keep the reg in cause in a real OOA it is better to suck on nothing, rather than sucking in water

In a real OOA situation, as you ascend there will be a small amount of air still in your tank available to you so do not remove your reg from your mouth. Worse case scenario, as emclean points out, you're sucking on a reg. and not inhaling water.

Talk to your instructor about what's discussed here. I don't know what agency he/she teaches under so it may be different standards. PADI standards are pretty clear that you do not drop weights or remove the reg. You simulate dropping weights only when you reach the surface.

If you drop your weights before, you could not perform a "controlled" ascent.

ScubaToys Larry
08-18-2010, 14:57
Your air will not be turned off... your reg will be in your mouth, and the instructor will have control of you throughout the skill with one hand lightly touching the reg so they can feel the vibration of the humming, hear the sound, and see the bubbles to assure that you are exhaling the entire time.

If it does not go that way... the instructor should not be teaching... that is standards for all the agencies. No agency is going to say it's ok to take a student, not even certified yet, turn off their air, have them ditch their reg and get to the surface on their own... Not happening.

And it's not magic - it's physics, the air will not magically appear, it will just be expanding on your way up. Just like a balloon will get bigger on the way to the surface, the air in your lungs will want to get bigger on the way to the surface, so you will be able to exhale longer than if just sitting still.

ScottW
08-18-2010, 15:09
If you can make the distance in the pool you can make the distance going vertical. Practice at home with just your snorkel in your mouth.
Look up towards the surface. This keeps the airway open plus it gives you a visual of just how close you are.
Instead of saying I think I can, I think I can. Say, I know I can, I know I can.


To TJ I was told the DI will shut our cylinders with this drill so the regs will not be of much help.
As my husband who is also about to do his ow dives says "they're not about to let us drown" I sure hope he's right
Not sure under what agency you'll be certified but this better not happen with a PADI course. Big no no.

Gonnagettanked
08-18-2010, 15:32
Larry and all,
thanks.
I feel more at ease now and I know with a controlled ascent you do not drop your weighs, but I guess I forgot about hanging on to the reg and the excess air in the tank. whew what would a hopeful diver do without all your help. and btw I'm taking a PADI course and I suppose I haven't got all my facts straight. But I'm not giving up I can do this!

Da Wolf
08-18-2010, 15:33
I was certified under SSI, he DID turn my tank off, and I had to drop my weights. But I was told to keep the reg in my mouth the whole time. Not to get rid of it until I broke the surface.

ScubaToys Larry
08-18-2010, 16:19
I was certified under SSI, he DID turn my tank off, and I had to drop my weights. But I was told to keep the reg in my mouth the whole time. Not to get rid of it until I broke the surface.

Wow... was that recently?? I'd be curious to hear from any SSI Instructors if that is standards now, as that is a very, very, very bad idea, in real life - or training.. Dumping your weights turns this into an emergency buoyant ascent, not a "Controlled" emergency ascent, and that is a last, last, last option in an out of air emergency.

In the "good ole' days" when I first took classes in the 70's, we did "blow and go". Blow out all your air and dump weights... but that went out of vogue in training about 20 years ago.

tonka97
08-18-2010, 16:33
Here is a good informative link on the subject of CESA:

Mavericks Diving - Central London experts in diving equipment, diver training and diving trips (http://www.mavericksdiving.co.uk/education/cesa.html)

Da Wolf
08-18-2010, 17:11
Wow... was that recently?? I'd be curious to hear from any SSI Instructors if that is standards now, as that is a very, very, very bad idea, in real life - or training.. Dumping your weights turns this into an emergency buoyant ascent, not a "Controlled" emergency ascent, and that is a last, last, last option in an out of air emergency.

In the "good ole' days" when I first took classes in the 70's, we did "blow and go". Blow out all your air and dump weights... but that went out of vogue in training about 20 years ago.

I was certified back in 2007. You are probably right on the emergency bouyant ascent. But that is the worst feeling in the world breathing on a reg then the air just stops. And then have to slowly blow whatever air is left in your lung out as you swim for the surface.

Tom H
08-18-2010, 17:47
I had no trouble at 20'. I've heard some have done it from 80-90'. Keep in mind that during the drill you will take a deep breath first--this probably won't happen in a real situation, thus you must do the CESA anyway. I asked one instructor what you do if you're deeper that 30 feet and he said you do a CESA anyway--what choice do you have? I guess there is the buoyant ascent if absolutely necessary. Risking the bends is better that blacking out.

Chilly
08-18-2010, 17:51
Your air will not be turned off... your reg will be in your mouth, and the instructor will have control of you throughout the skill with one hand lightly touching the reg so they can feel the vibration of the humming, hear the sound, and see the bubbles to assure that you are exhaling the entire time.

Nice! I wish my son's instructor did this. They simply swam the length of the pool underwater while exhaling.

fab50diver
08-18-2010, 18:05
I certified with PADI last month. We did NOT remove the regulator nor was the air turned off. I was told this was because you MAY be able to get another breath as you get closer to the top because of the air expansion in the tank. We certified at Clear Springs and the platforms there are 15-20' so that was as far as we had to go. I understand how you feel though. That was the part I worried most about but it was really no problem, I promise!

tonka97
08-18-2010, 18:15
.......... you MAY be able to get another breath as you get closer to the top because of the air expansion in the tank. ....

Just a minor clarification. The air does not expand in the tank as you ascend.

The ambient pressure (outside the tank) decreases as you ascend, thereby allowing air to escape through your regulator.

FFDiver
08-18-2010, 20:20
I certified with PADI in 95 and my instructor did it the first time with regulator in and then with it out but at no time should the air be off until you are comfortable with that scenario. Some instructors like to be all gung-ho and say there is only one way to do something, however that is not the case. Every individual is different with different reactions to each scenario. IF everyone was the same we would not need forums to talk about equipment, techniques and even our fears as we would all dive and use one regulator, one tank and so on there would be only one choice and we all know how good that would work. If you feel uncomfortable with cutting the air off and I have heard of instructors doing it then voice your concerns, first it is your life and your money. The instructor is there to train you and mentor you in the proper methods, not to scare you!!! Am I an instructor, no not a diving instructor, but I teach firefighter classes for area community classes so I know what it is like to teach.
It really is easy I did mine from about 45 feet and still had plenty of air when I got to the surface. I am sure you will do just fine and the biggest step is just being relaxed and trusting in the science that the air in your will expand as a higher volume of air is in your lungs at depth versus the surface. The regulator is designed to give you air at x amount of pressure compared to the water pressure. That is why a regulator seems the same at the surface versus 40 feet however it is giving more pressure at 40 feet. Good luck and let us know how it goes!!!!:smiley20:

Splitlip
08-18-2010, 22:12
I did mine from 60 ft. Air on but reg out of mouth in right hand.

mitsuguy
08-18-2010, 22:29
As Larry has pointed out, some of the things mentioned in this thread are not following the standards set forth by the training agencies, of which all should follow very very similar standards...

As an instructor, the CESA is one of my most worrisome, and PITA skills to teach and evaluate. It can be confusing for some students, no matter how many times you practice out of the water, and it seems something gets lost between the pool doing it horizontally and in the open water doing it vertically...

The way a CESA goes in Open Water - there will be a line running from whatever depth you start (or deeper) to the surface. This line should be anchored so that it can be held for control. The depth requirement is between 20 and 30 feet. Any shallower, breaking standards, any deeper, same thing... The actual area you are in may be deeper than 30 feet, but the skill must start between those depths. The instructor is required to maintain contact with the student and the line AT ALL TIMES. This is so that if the instructor notices that the student is holding their breath, the ascent can be stopped immediately. Once the instructor has contact with both the student and the line, the student is to begin, once signaled... starts with the ascent position - left hand holding up the inflator hose, right hand up in the sky as well - it is a CONTROLLED ascent, so, we hold the inflator up, ready to vent expanding air from the BCD - we don't want it to become a buoyant ascent. After we got the ascent position ready, the student takes a big breath, then starts kicking slowly, steadily, towards the surface, while continuously exhaling, preferably making an ahhhhhhhhhh sound. The student ALWAYS retains the regulator. There are actually two reasons for this - reason #1 - in case the water pressure decreases enough, the diver may be able to get another breath or two out of the tank on the way up - reason #2 - our bodies have a natural reaction to breathe once they sense too high of a level of carbon dioxide - we may not be able to resist the urge to breathe, so, by keeping the regulator in your mouth, you can't breathe (assuming zero air remaining) at all, which is much better than your body breathing in water because the reg wasn't keeping the water out... Whats really bad, is that, you could be on your way to the surface, feel the urge to breathe, make it just a few feet from the surface and your body breathe, no matter what you tell it to do - without a reg in your mouth, you will inhale water and most likely drown, whereas if the reg was in your mouth on the ascent, you would try to inhale, not be able to, and most likely be ok for the next few seconds - hopefully enough to actually break the surface of the water...

One other addendum - once you make it to the surface, the instructor should require you to orally inflate the BCD. At no time will the air ever be turned off - if there is a problem you need to be able to get air ASAP... Also, you won't be allowed to breathe after you have started your ascent, but, in real life, you should definitely try breathing on your ascent, as the pressure differential might have made it possible to get another breath or two...

I think I got all of the technical stuff out of the way - any questions, please ask...

Splitlip
08-18-2010, 23:11
My goodness. Things have changed.

In the dark and dirty days of unbalanced regs and j-valves, we really could not "run out of air". It got harder to breath so you knew when to surface. No so called "safety stops" either, so stiff breathing meant "see ya" on the boat.

Our OOA drills were really (wink,wink) for catastrophic reg failures. We were shown how to breath off a tank without a reg, but I did not do it in class. Otherwise, we knelt in the sand in 60fsw open water, blew and went.
We were taught that we may not be able to take a full breath, but also that air in the lungs would expand. We flared at 20 ft.
In the 60's they say it was done from 100ft. I don't know.

My daughter swam from the deep end of the pool to the shallow end (that made me feel good.).

Who knows what the future holds.

They called themselves Guerrilla Divers.
Composed of elite divers with Macho mentalities, back when men were men, and FEAR was a lispy companion of the common Man. It was a time before insurance liabilities, lawsuits or bureaucratic regulation of the "sport". Guerrilla divers didn't need "Buoyancy Compensator Vests". In fact, "Anyone who needs a BC deserves to drown" was a popular adage. Exploration and the Hunt came first, excitement and fun followed. Safety was the stepchild of fitness, good reflexes and a cool head.
This was a time of great Adventure.

scubastud
08-19-2010, 06:40
Hmm I can't recall doing the drill with NASDS in the seventies, doesn't mean I didn't do it.. destroyed many brain cells since then.

With PADI a couple years ago, we started at 20 feet.. that is 20 feet from the bottom, meaning like 15 feet, no problem.

Gonnagettanked
08-19-2010, 07:03
I'm listening and feeling better. Keep the adivce coming.
The big date is the 29th.
We'll be diving of Cape Ann in Gloucester for anyone familiar with Massachusetts. I've been doing my training in a 3mm but the water will be a little chilly so a 7mm w/ hood gloves will be the attire for the day. Im told this will be a new twist. Just a little more stuff to haul to the surface. Haven't worn gloves yet either so this will be fun removing gear.

ScubaToys Larry
08-19-2010, 07:11
Especially wearing a heavy suit like that, you will be wearing more weight, and you will not be removing your weights! That would turn into a run away emergency condition. Actually, the expansion of the suit will make it so you'll have to vent air from the bc on the way up, and really will not have to work too hard kicking. You should be able to just relax... look up.... make an ahhhhh should through the regulator, and swim up easily, dumping air if you start passing the bigger bubbles.

Walk in the park... Piece of cake...

Rileybri
08-19-2010, 08:05
My goodness. Things have changed.

In the dark and dirty days of unbalanced regs and j-valves, we really could not "run out of air". It got harder to breath so you knew when to surface. No so called "safety stops" either, so stiff breathing meant "see ya" on the boat.

Our OOA drills were really (wink,wink) for catastrophic reg failures. We were shown how to breath off a tank without a reg, but I did not do it in class. Otherwise, we knelt in the sand in 60fsw open water, blew and went.
We were taught that we may not be able to take a full breath, but also that air in the lungs would expand. We flared at 20 ft.
In the 60's they say it was done from 100ft. I don't know.

My daughter swam from the deep end of the pool to the shallow end (that made me feel good.).

Who knows what the future holds.

They called themselves Guerrilla Divers.
Composed of elite divers with Macho mentalities, back when men were men, and FEAR was a lispy companion of the common Man. It was a time before insurance liabilities, lawsuits or bureaucratic regulation of the "sport". Guerrilla divers didn't need "Buoyancy Compensator Vests". In fact, "Anyone who needs a BC deserves to drown" was a popular adage. Exploration and the Hunt came first, excitement and fun followed. Safety was the stepchild of fitness, good reflexes and a cool head.
This was a time of great Adventure.

wow I had no idea you were that old.........:smilie39:

TJDiver
08-19-2010, 08:49
I'm listening and feeling better. Keep the adivce coming.
The big date is the 29th.
We'll be diving of Cape Ann in Gloucester for anyone familiar with Massachusetts. I've been doing my training in a 3mm but the water will be a little chilly so a 7mm w/ hood gloves will be the attire for the day. Im told this will be a new twist. Just a little more stuff to haul to the surface. Haven't worn gloves yet either so this will be fun removing gear.

Oh man...that brings back memories. Way back in...I think...the late 80's, I did quite a few shore dives off Cape Ann, MA while on a temporary assignment up there. The water WAS cold, but it was beautiful...never seen so many anemones in one place in all my life! I especially liked Folly Cove...anemones cover the wall to the left...old anchor in the sand out in the middle...strings of lobsters marching single file from one side to the other...neat cove.

ScottW
08-19-2010, 11:47
We'll be diving of Cape Ann in Gloucester for anyone familiar with Massachusetts. I've been doing my training in a 3mm but the water will be a little chilly so a 7mm w/ hood gloves will be the attire for the day. Im told this will be a new twist. Just a little more stuff to haul to the surface. Haven't worn gloves yet either so this will be fun removing gear.

Is it possible for you to get back in the pool and try some of the skills with a hood and gloves on, especially the mask clearing skills. Removing gear with gloves on isn't too difficult. You loose some dexterity depending on thickness of the glove but just take your time and 'feel' what you're doing.

Noob
08-19-2010, 12:17
Especially wearing a heavy suit like that, you will be wearing more weight, and you will not be removing your weights! That would turn into a run away emergency condition. Actually, the expansion of the suit will make it so you'll have to vent air from the bc on the way up, and really will not have to work too hard kicking. You should be able to just relax... look up.... make an ahhhhh should through the regulator, and swim up easily, dumping air if you start passing the bigger bubbles.

Walk in the park... Piece of cake...

Your not kidding. I use a 5mm farmer john and if I freedive with no weight I can barely make 10 ft. Once I stop swimming down I shoot up like a sub surfacing.

Its easy dude. Dont sweat it. Its alot easier going vertical then it is horizontal.

BSea
08-19-2010, 12:24
Like Splitlip, we were trained how to breath off of the tank. Unlike him, we had to do this in the pool part of our testing. If I remember correctly, we had to slowly swim the length of the pool while breathing off just the valve. To be honest, I don't remember if we did any form of CESA on our checkout. But it was called blow & go back then (I think somebody else mentioned this). And as he said, there were no safety stops, and we were taught to ascend as fast as our bubbles (1' per second) . In our testing, we did have to exhale for a certain distance. We also had to swim with blacked out masks in a pool. Really a joke as long as the total blackout didn't cause you a problem. But back then the training was much more extensive. Stress & Rescue was part of our open water training. There was no Advanced Open Water back then. At least not for NASDS (now SSI). I don't know what padi's requirements were.

Quero
08-20-2010, 01:59
The biggest problem my students have in performing CESAs is releasing the air too fast and feeling like they need to take a breath in before reaching the goal/surface. The videos and instructions often say to make an "ah" sound while swimming up, but saying "ah" tends to release a lot of air fast. I have found that it's easier to control the amount of air you release if you make an "eeeee" sound instead of "ah," so when I have students who can't make it on one breath, that's what I advise them to try. When I do CESAs together with my students, I tend to release the air in a little "blub, blub, blub" bubble stream. The whole point of all of these techniques is simply to keep the airway open so that expanding air in the lungs is able to escape through your mouth.

the CESA is a skill with lots of little bits to remember--keep an open airway, dump air from the BCD, don't go too fast, inflate the BCD orally on the surface--so don't worry if it takes a couple of tries to get it. Just look at any repetition you need as additional practice that will help you remember in the case of a real emergency.

navyhmc
08-20-2010, 04:02
Way back in '74 we were told to say "eeeeee" as well. I sort of recall I was a little nervous about it as well, but I had a warped sense of fun, I did it good the first time and wanted to do it a few more times just for the fun of it.

Quero
08-20-2010, 04:09
Way back in '74 we were told to say "eeeeee" as well. I sort of recall I was a little nervous about it as well, but I had a warped sense of fun, I did it good the first time and wanted to do it a few more times just for the fun of it.Yeah, that is warped, LOL. I personally dislike doing the CESA in open water since my ears take a beating on those shallow bounce dives, but I'm always gratified at the sense of success the students have afterwards. They prove to themselves that they can perform self-rescue if need be, and that gives them a great deal of confidence.

tonka97
08-20-2010, 11:44
The biggest problem my students have in performing CESAs is releasing the air too fast and feeling like they need to take a breath in before reaching the goal/surface. The videos and instructions often say to make an "ah" sound while swimming up, but saying "ah" tends to release a lot of air fast. I have found that it's easier to control the amount of air you release if you make an "eeeee" sound instead of "ah," so when I have students who can't make it on one breath, that's what I advise them to try. When I do CESAs together with my students, I tend to release the air in a little "blub, blub, blub" bubble stream. The whole point of all of these techniques is simply to keep the airway open so that expanding air in the lungs is able to escape through your mouth.

the CESA is a skill with lots of little bits to remember--keep an open airway, dump air from the BCD, don't go too fast, inflate the BCD orally on the surface--so don't worry if it takes a couple of tries to get it. Just look at any repetition you need as additional practice that will help you remember in the case of a real emergency.

Good informative post, Quero.

It will help new divers master the skill.

In my YMCA OW course we were taught 'blow tiny bubbles'....like you say, the requirement is to preclude a closed glottis.

Gonnagettanked
08-23-2010, 09:28
OK 5 days to go and I'm ready for the 24 skills I've got to accomplish. I'm told the vis is about 10 to 15 ft. This should be interesting.
the forecast is 92 degrees on Sunday so that will be fun climbing in a 7 mm in front of a crowded beach:) We're starting around 1 and hopefully finishing around 6. We'll have fun marching in and out of the water to the delight of the sunworshipers. And naturally this will be our 1st experience in salt water as some of you did your OW dives in the ocean too.Oh have I mentioned I'm from Boston? Well I think I have several time and if you've heard we've had several Great Whites hanging around all summer. And just yesterday one made a snack of a seal about 12 feet of shore. So on top of my apprehention I'll have the little Jaws theme playing in my head too! Boy I can't wait for this to be over. 4 dives in 1 day. I'm tired already! My DI assures Boot camp is almost over and the fun will soon begin.
Im taking her on her word and My husband and I are going to Crystal Spring, FL to hang with the Manatees. That should be fun!

ScottW
08-23-2010, 12:03
<snip> Boy I can't wait for this to be over. 4 dives in 1 day. I'm tired already! My DI assures Boot camp is almost over and the fun will soon begin.</snip> You shouldn't be doing four training dives in one day. That is a standards violation and the DI should be slapped silly if that is what they are planning. OW is supposed to be a two day gig.

Noob
08-23-2010, 12:27
You shouldn't be doing four training dives in one day. That is a standards violation and the DI should be slapped silly if that is what they are planning. OW is supposed to be a two day gig.


for me it was 2 dive per day for 2 days

DMWiz
08-23-2010, 13:04
You shouldn't be doing four training dives in one day. That is a standards violation and the DI should be slapped silly if that is what they are planning. OW is supposed to be a two day gig.

The instructor cannot conduct more than 2 open water dives only if they follow confined water dives in the same day.

Conducting 4 OW training dives may be too much to absorb, but it's not against standards. At least not PADI standards.

Gonnagettanked
08-23-2010, 13:39
yup it's Padi. Does it make a difference if we're taking private instruction. We were also informed that because we've done 2 dicover scuba programs and did several (10)confined training (more than required) she felt we could handle the 4 ow in one day. We will be taking breaks in between.
That's why the 6 hour time frame is what we're planning. What do you guys think about that? I'm already anxious , but excited (not just anxious.

ScottW
08-23-2010, 13:43
The instructor cannot conduct more than 2 open water dives only if they follow confined water dives in the same day.
Agreed


Conducting 4 OW training dives may be too much to absorb, but it's not against standards. At least not PADI standards.
Disagree. Show me in your 2010 GS&P where it says that. Mine says the fillowing:

9. Conduct no more than three open water training dives in a single day, night or combination thereof.

ScottW
08-23-2010, 14:11
yup it's Padi. Does it make a difference if we're taking private instruction. We were also informed that because we've done 2 dicover scuba programs and did several (10)confined training (more than required) she felt we could handle the 4 ow in one day. We will be taking breaks in between.
That's why the 6 hour time frame is what we're planning. What do you guys think about that? I'm already anxious , but excited (not just anxious.
Private lessons make no difference as far as the number of training dives that are done in one day.
Did you participate in a Discover Scuba Diving that involved going to a lake or the ocean and demonstrating the skills you learned or just in a pool? If just in a pool that dosen't count towards open water no matter the number you have done.

DivingCRNA
08-23-2010, 14:28
Agreed


Disagree. Show me in your 2010 GS&P where it says that. Mine says the fillowing:

9. Conduct no more than three open water training dives in a single day, night or combination thereof.

What I see around here is that the people from Wichita will do 1-3 on Saturday and do #4 on Sunday morning so everyone can run home.

DMWiz
08-23-2010, 15:17
Agreed


Disagree. Show me in your 2010 GS&P where it says that. Mine says the fillowing:


I stand corrected execute that instructor! :D and me.

Quero
08-23-2010, 19:38
yup it's Padi. Does it make a difference if we're taking private instruction. We were also informed that because we've done 2 dicover scuba programs and did several (10)confined training (more than required) she felt we could handle the 4 ow in one day. We will be taking breaks in between.
That's why the 6 hour time frame is what we're planning. What do you guys think about that? I'm already anxious , but excited (not just anxious.

Two things:
1. I think you should insist that your instructor follow standards. We all know these standards, and the reasons for them are to keep student divers safe. There is no reason more important than that one!

Unless your instructor is considering the Discover Scuba Diving experience as Dive #1 (and you must have done this DSD in open water for it to count), she is not allowed to certify you in just one day of open water dives. Only if that dive is being counted and has been logged along with the signature of the instructor who conducted the dive or was registered online with PADI so that there's a record of it (we can't just take somebody's word that they did a "resort dive" "somewhere"), then can she conduct three training dives on one day and you will be finished.

You can manage three reasonably long dives and two hour-long surface intervals, plus time to have briefings, to prepare equipment, to gear up and to perform buddy checks in a six-hour day, but no more than that without a fair amount of rushing, even if it were permitted by standards.

2. I also think that if you are paying a premium for private instruction, you should receive the full benefit of that investment. There is no good reason to rush through your training or do the bare minimum in the dives in order to satisfy standards.

I would assume that you have engaged a private instructor so that your training will be more thorough, so you realize that the objective of the course is not simply getting the card, but learning the things you need to know in order to have safe and enjoyable dives.

I teach exclusively private courses, and I recognize this as the motivation for my own students. I make sure my student divers get good, long open water dives for their training dives because it's not the performance of skills that solidifies training, it's actual diving. So if I spend 5 to 7 minutes of each dive on the skills, I still have 40 minutes of pure diving for fun during each and every training dive to allow my divers to put these skills into practice and really develop as divers. If you are cramming in a lot of dives in a short day (six hours is nothing), your dives are bound to be quite short, particularly if your surface intervals are the usual one-hour minimum.

In sum, it sounds to me as if you need to discuss things with the instructor and possibly with the shop owner. As a PADI instructor, if I have direct knowledge of the violation of training standards by another PADI instructor, I am obliged by the same standards to report the violation. I don't like to think that both your instructor and the shop owner are participating in such blatant violations, so I do wonder if there's a misunderstanding somewhere along the line and you will not actually be doing four dives on one day.

mitsuguy
08-24-2010, 01:01
Two things:
1. I think you should insist that your instructor follow standards. We all know these standards, and the reasons for them are to keep student divers safe. There is no reason more important than that one!

Unless your instructor is considering the Discover Scuba Diving experience as Dive #1 (and you must have done this DSD in open water for it to count), she is not allowed to certify you in just one day of open water dives. Only if that dive is being counted and has been logged along with the signature of the instructor who conducted the dive or was registered online with PADI so that there's a record of it (we can't just take somebody's word that they did a "resort dive" "somewhere"), then can she conduct three training dives on one day and you will be finished.

You can manage three reasonably long dives and two hour-long surface intervals, plus time to have briefings, to prepare equipment, to gear up and to perform buddy checks in a six-hour day, but no more than that without a fair amount of rushing, even if it were permitted by standards.

2. I also think that if you are paying a premium for private instruction, you should receive the full benefit of that investment. There is no good reason to rush through your training or do the bare minimum in the dives in order to satisfy standards.

I would assume that you have engaged a private instructor so that your training will be more thorough, so you realize that the objective of the course is not simply getting the card, but learning the things you need to know in order to have safe and enjoyable dives.

I teach exclusively private courses, and I recognize this as the motivation for my own students. I make sure my student divers get good, long open water dives for their training dives because it's not the performance of skills that solidifies training, it's actual diving. So if I spend 5 to 7 minutes of each dive on the skills, I still have 40 minutes of pure diving for fun during each and every training dive to allow my divers to put these skills into practice and really develop as divers. If you are cramming in a lot of dives in a short day (six hours is nothing), your dives are bound to be quite short, particularly if your surface intervals are the usual one-hour minimum.

In sum, it sounds to me as if you need to discuss things with the instructor and possibly with the shop owner. As a PADI instructor, if I have direct knowledge of the violation of training standards by another PADI instructor, I am obliged by the same standards to report the violation. I don't like to think that both your instructor and the shop owner are participating in such blatant violations, so I do wonder if there's a misunderstanding somewhere along the line and you will not actually be doing four dives on one day.

as usual, I completely agree with you Quero....

Gonnagettanked
08-24-2010, 06:35
Quero,
I spoke to her Last night and expressed my concerns. We will meet early Sat, and then complete the remaining dives on Sunday afternoon.
All we had to do was join up with a class on Saturday. No big deal to me. We did pay a very steep price for private instruction, but you are exactly right. The reason I chose private lessons is because I wanted to to feel competent in the water. Not rushed to keep up with a class, but to go at my own pace till I felt comfortable with each skill even if it meant doing it till I got it right. I'm not in that much of a hurry to get my card if it means risking exhaustion and not enjoying any part of the dives. Thanks for your help and advice.
I always love reading your posts.

Quero
08-24-2010, 10:05
Quero,
Thanks for your help and advice. I always love reading your posts.
My pleasure. Let us know how it goes this coming weekend!

Gonnagettanked
08-31-2010, 07:42
I'm a Card Carrying Member!
Even "Danielle's" swells and rip currents couldn't keep this gal from passing!
It was a blast. Even the 90 degrees in a 7mm, hood and gloves, a tons of weight and climbing over a mountain of rocks to enter the rough water was the most exciting day of my life! I had 2 great instructors who took my husband and me for a nice swim around the rocky edge of the shore line before we started the drills. I got to see crabs scurrying in and out of swaying seaweed, small flounder, shimmering striped bass darting all around us. It was amazing. Our drills went smoothly even in the current we just kept steading ourselves. When all was said and done, cards signed, and more than a few tears shed my instructor and I were discussing an upcoming trip to Mexico. She told me to tell the dive op that we were certified in New England and gave us a wink. Ya, New England no bikinis,no flip flops:)
Thanks to all my new forum friends
I never thought this old broad would pull it off!

scubastud
08-31-2010, 07:45
Wooohooo!

DMWiz
08-31-2010, 08:27
I'm a Card Carrying Member!
Thanks to all my new forum friends
I never thought this old broad would pull it off!

Conga-rats!

Now dive, dive, dive... it just gets better!

bassplayer
08-31-2010, 10:02
Congrats, you have a lot to look forward to!