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bfmorgan
11-26-2010, 12:10
I will take my open water course starting in January. The LDS offers a discount for a nitrox class if I sign up for it at the same time as the OW class. Is it a good idea to combine nitrox and OW or would you recommend some experience diving before nitrox?

bigman241
11-26-2010, 12:40
Welcome, congrats, good luck, and your love it. :smiley20:

I have a unique way of seeing this and good reasons. I thought planned and nearly setup the same thing.

I did not see a reason not to, not so much a discount as I was not offered one, but more the safety factor and such.

I got my OW cert in march, finished my AOW in late OCt and have 24 dives, but still have not done nitrox, alot of folks on here have 100s or 1000s of dives without it.

My knowledge of it is nitrox is there to have a safety factor against nitrogen building and lengthens your dive time, if dove on air tables or a air setting on a computer it gives you a large safety factor when doing your dives, when you go to nitrox tables you loose this.
Pros
safety factor on air tables

2. Longer dive time
3. most say post dives they feel better
4. I was told since there is higher O2 your sac is alittle better, NOT SURE IF IT IS TRUE

CONS

1.Your Ow course will be very stressful, contain ALOT of info, not to much but enough the thought seems to be not to compound when doing your OW course.

2. Nitrox has a set of factors you have to look at, your 02 amount and it's depth limits, really planning your dive, having equipment made for nitrox, not all regs will handle nitrox, I planned around and knew I wanted it when I bought my gear. Plus nitrox cost more and you have to make sure your O2 amount IS Right.

3. when you start to dive, be it your skinny and fit, fat and outof shape (ME), or a who ever, your SAC(surface air consumption) is crazy, your will burn through a tanks is no time, I did, I huff and buffed my way down and up as did my dad, we all do it. I have all but doubled my SAC since my cert. When you get 30 minutes out of a tank nitrox is money wasted.

4 Added task loading for your OW and early dives, nitrox demands you to really think it through.

5. limits your depth depending on your O2 amount.


I would recommend you wait till you get some dives in, no real set number but right now at 24 dives, with my AOW I think I can handle it and will be doing it before my march trip.

I doubt like me you will get any thing besides a safety factor on air tables due to a your sac being a new diver, again no matter what shape your in, when you go down your be breathing like crazy the first several if not 50 dives.

Alittle more on the whole thing besides nitrox, at one time I had setup to do our OW, nitrox, and AOW all in two weeks in cozumel, after talking with members here I figured out it would be crazy to do that and am glad I did my OW only, it was a fun activity and not overwhelming, I think to add nitrox or AOW on it would have took alot of the fun out of it.

You could always pay for it now, and then take it after your OW or in a few months, most shops do not require dives since padi and I think all cert agencies do not.

Again welcome, hope I helped and if you need anything feel free to ask, not sure I will know but there are alot of good folks on here that do. :smiley20:

Where are you doing your cert? I hope somewhere south of the florida state line in JAN:smiley36:

Vercingetorix
11-26-2010, 13:13
I cannot imagine that any OWSI would combine OW and Nitrox in the same class. You'd be learning two sets of dive tables simultaneously. As Bigman already mentioned, you're already stressed and heavily task-loaded for OW.

Therefore, I assume you can pay for both at once, then do the Nitrox a bit later. If your OW instructor says he'll do both simultaneously, find another instructor.

Or, maybe he's doing them back-to-back. That is, as soon as you finish OW, he immediately starts teaching Nitrox. That wouldn't be too bad. You're already in a classroom environment and all that OW knowledge is fresh in your head, including tables.

bennerman
11-26-2010, 13:47
Um... I was a little overwhelmed by learning everything I did in OW (I still need to be tutored on dive tables before I can actually get my cert), I doubt I would do much better with MORE stuff to absorb, and I am a quick study. So basically, I think you should get all the skills concreted before you go any further and learn more.

FoxHound
11-26-2010, 13:59
If its nitrox right after open water and not during then sure so long as you have a good grip on your tables as that is pretty well what a nitrox course is....tables.

I did nitrox at 19 dives I think, I had no problems with it.

bfmorgan
11-26-2010, 14:45
Welcome, congrats, good luck, and your love it. :smiley20:

I have a unique way of seeing this and good reasons. I thought planned and nearly setup the same thing.

I did not see a reason not to, not so much a discount as I was not offered one, but more the safety factor and such.

I got my OW cert in march, finished my AOW in late OCt and have 24 dives, but still have not done nitrox, alot of folks on here have 100s or 1000s of dives without it.

My knowledge of it is nitrox is there to have a safety factor against nitrogen building and lengthens your dive time, if dove on air tables or a air setting on a computer it gives you a large safety factor when doing your dives, when you go to nitrox tables you loose this.
Pros
safety factor on air tables

2. Longer dive time
3. most say post dives they feel better
4. I was told since there is higher O2 your sac is alittle better, NOT SURE IF IT IS TRUE

CONS

1.Your Ow course will be very stressful, contain ALOT of info, not to much but enough the thought seems to be not to compound when doing your OW course.

2. Nitrox has a set of factors you have to look at, your 02 amount and it's depth limits, really planning your dive, having equipment made for nitrox, not all regs will handle nitrox, I planned around and knew I wanted it when I bought my gear. Plus nitrox cost more and you have to make sure your O2 amount IS Right.

3. when you start to dive, be it your skinny and fit, fat and outof shape (ME), or a who ever, your SAC(surface air consumption) is crazy, your will burn through a tanks is no time, I did, I huff and buffed my way down and up as did my dad, we all do it. I have all but doubled my SAC since my cert. When you get 30 minutes out of a tank nitrox is money wasted.

4 Added task loading for your OW and early dives, nitrox demands you to really think it through.

5. limits your depth depending on your O2 amount.


I would recommend you wait till you get some dives in, no real set number but right now at 24 dives, with my AOW I think I can handle it and will be doing it before my march trip.

I doubt like me you will get any thing besides a safety factor on air tables due to a your sac being a new diver, again no matter what shape your in, when you go down your be breathing like crazy the first several if not 50 dives.

Alittle more on the whole thing besides nitrox, at one time I had setup to do our OW, nitrox, and AOW all in two weeks in cozumel, after talking with members here I figured out it would be crazy to do that and am glad I did my OW only, it was a fun activity and not overwhelming, I think to add nitrox or AOW on it would have took alot of the fun out of it.

You could always pay for it now, and then take it after your OW or in a few months, most shops do not require dives since padi and I think all cert agencies do not.

Again welcome, hope I helped and if you need anything feel free to ask, not sure I will know but there are alot of good folks on here that do. :smiley20:

Where are you doing your cert? I hope somewhere south of the florida state line in JAN:smiley36:

I am north of you and will take the class in Michigan....I am offered two choices for cert dives....wait for it to warm up or take a trip to Florida. And to clarify the OW class and nitrox classes are separate classes. So I would complete OW, then nitrox soon thereafter. I would like to tell you that I am not going to go through a lot of air, but when I was a firefighter, it was amazing how much air I could go through fighting a fire.

After all of the posts, I think, I will modify my plan slightly:
OW then nitrox near the end of summer, and AOW in the fall if I have a number of dives (24?) in by then.

Thanks to everyone for all of the input. It certainly helps while you are trying to figure out a somewhat complicated hobby.

scubadiver888
11-26-2010, 15:01
As pointed out, the nitrox class builds in the OW course. Doing both at the same time could be overwhelming.

Additionally, there are two reasons for a recreational diver to end a dive. One reason is running low on air. The other reason is reaching your no-decompression limit (NDL). As a new diver, you will run out of air before you reach your NDL.

What nitrox does for you is extend your NDL. If your NDL was 55 minutes, it might be 80 minutes on nitrox. If you run out of air after 40 minutes, using nitrox will not help. You will still run out of gas in 40 minutes. You will probably spend twice as much on the gas.

People say they feel better after using nitrox. Studies have shown this is not true.

There is an additional safety factor. If you limit your dive to the air tables then you have a much lower nitrogen loading and therefore a much lower risk of Decompression Sickness (DCS or the bends). However, as a new diver, you will never approach the NDL of air tables. Just by running out of air before you reach the NDL, you are lowering your nitrogen loading and therefore lowering your risk of DCS.

Bottom line, until you are ending a dive with plenty of air due to NDL, there isn't a great advantage to using nitrox.

Additionally, if you learn to use nitrox now, by the time you are ready to use it, you might have forgotten everything. I, personally, would just wait until you are ready to use nitrox.

By the way, I suspect the shop owner wants you to take the nitrox course because (a) they make more money selling you the nitrox course and (b) if you use nitrox from the shop, they make more money.

bfmorgan
11-26-2010, 16:12
As always, I get such good feedback. I have not experienced the thrill of diving, but nitrox had the attraction that you would "feel better" after a nitrox dive. I will shelf the nitrox dive until such time that I can use air efficiently enough that I actually need to extend my NDL time. My son was certifed 11 years ago and seemed to immediately be able to consume much less air than his dive buddies. Never understood how or why, but you are correct the limiting factor for noobies is the air consumption rate.

Again, thanks to everyone for helping me make this decision.

scubadiver888
11-26-2010, 20:22
Some people will just consume less air than others. You have little control over your physique. There are things which you do have control over.

Watch people with good air consumption and you'll notice they don't use their hands. Movement underwater takes 16 times more effort than in air. So the more you move the quicker you use up your air. Getting neutral in the water means you don't have to constantly swim up or down to remain at the same level. Placing your weights in the correct location means you won't have to struggle to stay horizontal. Move with your fins. Change direction with your head. Head down, you go down. Head up, you go up. Breathing in, kicking and head up will make you go up faster. Exhale, kicking and head down.

Bottom line, less movement means better air consumption.

FoxHound
11-27-2010, 07:00
888 hit er on the head.

I wouldnt use firefighting as a comparison. You are doing a TOOOOOOOOON more work and would eat through gas a ton more then you ever would during scuba. If you are solid with tables then i dont really see a reason to put it off, even if you have the cert doesnt mean you dive nitrox every dive. I rarely dive nitrox but i still have it.

Chilly
11-27-2010, 07:33
Nice post Bigman! :smiley20:

wheelman
11-27-2010, 10:20
People say they feel better after using nitrox. Studies have shown this is not true.

Well then, I guess everyone is lying and should just follow the study results.

Vercingetorix
11-27-2010, 10:33
Well then, I guess everyone is lying and should just follow the study results.

Perhaps the effect is placebic.

wheelman
11-27-2010, 10:43
Perhaps the effect is placebic.

Absolutely, doesn't make it less real. You either feel better or you don't.

plot
11-28-2010, 14:48
i guess i'll take the other side of it.

nitrox is a 4 hour class, no actual diving involved. breathing nitrox is just like breathing air psychically... might as well do it if it saves some cash. you'll be glad you can dive nitrox when you get more bottom time after spending thousands to go somewhere tropical to dive.

bigman241
11-28-2010, 19:30
that is what I did, well alittle diff, did ow in march IN FLORIDA, AOW this summer-fall finished in 46 degree water, will do nitrox before my march trip, MAYBE sooner depending on how our trip for mid dec plays out.
I am north of you and will take the class in Michigan....I am offered two choices for cert dives....wait for it to warm up or take a trip to Florida. And to clarify the OW class and nitrox classes are separate classes. So I would complete OW, then nitrox soon thereafter. I would like to tell you that I am not going to go through a lot of air, but when I was a firefighter, it was amazing how much air I could go through fighting a fire.

After all of the posts, I think, I will modify my plan slightly:
OW then nitrox near the end of summer, and AOW in the fall if I have a number of dives (24?) in by then.

Thanks to everyone for all of the input. It certainly helps while you are trying to figure out a somewhat complicated hobby.

bigman241
11-28-2010, 19:32
I do agree, it is not that bad, but for a new student alittle to much I think. What if the over whelmed student forgets his depth limits for his % of nitrox?:smiley11:
i guess i'll take the other side of it.

nitrox is a 4 hour class, no actual diving involved. breathing nitrox is just like breathing air psychically... might as well do it if it saves some cash. you'll be glad you can dive nitrox when you get more bottom time after spending thousands to go somewhere tropical to dive.

plot
11-28-2010, 19:51
thing is, just because you have the nitrox cert, doesn't mean you have to dive it right away.

flipcop
11-29-2010, 10:09
I would do what you feel comfortable with. I personally would do it sooner than later. As far as forgetting, I always carry dive tables nitrox tables and EAD tables to every dive. If my computer craps out i always have back up plan.

Noob
11-29-2010, 10:52
If it was me I personally would take OW, dive some, then see where you want to go from there.

I do agree with flipcop though. Its what your comfortable with.

Flatliner
11-29-2010, 11:46
A couple of students in my OW class took Nitrox at the same time. It didn't really seem like a big deal to me. I waited until I was going on a trip before I took it but I did take dry suit at the same time as OW. Honestly, Nitrox wouldn't be too much task loading in my mind unless someone was really challenged.

Smashee
11-29-2010, 15:40
We introduce Nitrox at entry-level. Even if the students choose not to use it, it's a good start for their further training. As the MOD for the richest mix they're allowed to dive exceeds the Ocean Diver depth limitations, and the maths is pretty straightforward, I see no reason not to do it. Of course, we have the luxury of time on our side. If you're doing a 4-day intensive PADI/SSI OW course, there's barely enough time to fit in the basics. :-(