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Vercingetorix
12-11-2010, 09:19
The reason I'm posting this is because of the the father's reaction.

Synopsis: At 12:15 am, a 17-year-old punk attempts to rob woman at gun point. She wrestles the gun from the scumbag, and shoots, and kills him.

Police: Woman Wrestles Gun From Teen Robber, Shoots Him - News Story - WPXI Pittsburgh (http://www.wpxi.com/news/26086086/detail.html?cxntlid=cmg_cntnt_rss)

The father's reaction:

He was very family-oriented,” said Dwayne Heath Sr. “He loved to be around his siblings.”

Heath said his son was the oldest of seven and was a junior at Steel Valley High School.

“I would like to know, to ease my mind, what happened,” said Heath Sr. “Bad or good, I’d like to know.”

I'll tell you what happened. Your juvie kid was out past mid-night with a gun. He threatened somebody and, she wasted him. End of story.

He was family-oriented? He loved being around his siblings? Really? Why the h*ll was your 17-year-old kid prowling the neighborhood with a gun and looking for victims?

//To those who've read my comments concerning the death penalty in another thread, this may appear inconsistent. In this case the potential victim was defending herself in a dangerous, life-threatening situation. You do not go for half-measures. Rehab for this waste-of-space is not an option. Some of you might wonder why I feel little sympathy for the father. He raised his kid this way. He knew his kid was out past midnight. I can guess this was not a one-off incident; there were previous problems and indications that the kid was garbage.

//Depending on comments, I may move this to the Too Hot forum

scubastud
12-11-2010, 09:21
+1.

I have nothing more to add V, I couldn't agree more.

chilly willy
12-11-2010, 10:51
I say good for her, the kid got what he deserved.

bigman241
12-11-2010, 11:07
THE TRULY SAID PART IS THE WOMAN WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH THIS FOR THE REMAINDER OF HER LIFE.
I applied for my hand gun permit a month ago, due to a break end, I would rather have a gun then need to wrestle with the bad guy.

I agree with you that your thoughts are alittle cold hearted, but so are mine and so was pulling the gun on her

bigman241
12-11-2010, 11:08
I also understand him wanting to know, he is likely surprised his son would due this, and wants to know why

TwistedSister209
12-11-2010, 11:11
I say good for her, the kid got what he deserved.

+1 I would have shot the kid too.

Vercingetorix
12-11-2010, 12:11
I also understand him wanting to know, he is likely surprised his son would due this, and wants to know why

You are joking, right? A little sarcasm? Please, dear God in heaven, tell me you are joking.

//my sardonic meter may be out of calibration

ScubaToys Larry
12-11-2010, 12:36
I know of lots of parents that were good parents - but the kids ending up bad. It's not always the fault of the Dad... and some kids are good at hiding things. Some people are just wired wrong... some may be in a peer pressure situation, and they did the wrong thing one time...

I think from what information we have from a few lines on a news article, it is a bit unfair for us to make any knowledgeable comments concerning what the parent is like, or even for sure what the kid was like... other than to know, he made a real bad decision that cost him his life... but if he would have been real bad... why didn't he just walk up to this lady, shoot her, then pick up her purse... obviously, his goal was not to kill someone, even though he had a gun.

Vercingetorix
12-11-2010, 12:44
I know of lots of parents that were good parents - but the kids ending up bad. It's not always the fault of the Dad... and some kids are good at hiding things. Some people are just wired wrong... some may be in a peer pressure situation, and they did the wrong thing one time...

I understand and agree to a point. But there had to be signs and previous problems. Little Dwayne could not have been a straight-A student and member of the student honor society, then, today decides, "Hey, I'll grab a gun and go rob somebody."


... but if he would have been real bad... why didn't he just walk up to this lady, shoot her, then pick up her purse... obviously, his goal was not to kill someone, even though he had a gun.

As a gun owner (and Life NRA member) we were taught, "never pull a gun unless you intend to use it." Regardless of his non-violent intent, I would assume he meant bodily harm to me. Use of deadly force is morally just here.

ScubaToys Larry
12-11-2010, 12:53
As a gun owner (and Life NRA member) we were taught, "never pull a gun unless you intend to use it."

That's cool and sounds real neat... but I'm willing to bet he was not a Life NRA member, but some kid that wanted a prop to make him feel more confident... if he intended to use it... he would have walked up to her from behind... shoot her in the head, grab the purse and go.

Should he have had a gun... no, should he have been out at that time at night... no, was he causing trouble... yes... But I know kids who have been in situations not too different that turned out to be good people later in life.

Making sweeping judgments about someone, and their entire family based on 100 word article... and being thankful a 17 year old is dead...

Well, everyone gets to have their opinion... Many peoples lives are not perfect throughout. I have good personal friends who have had troubled pasts, kids with troubled pasts.. that still turned out ok.

ScubaToys Larry
12-11-2010, 13:12
Use of deadly force is morally just here.



And who are we to make that judgement? The lynch mobs that hung Blacks felt that their victoims did not deserve to live. The supporters of Nazism felt that Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. did not deserve to live. Nowadays, fundamentalist Muslim jihadists feel that Christians do not deserve to live. Under the Taliban regime, women were stoned for disobeying their husbands; that punishment is stll meted out in remote villages of Islamic nations.

Tell me. Who makes that decision of who deserves to live? What are the criterion?


Obviously attempted armed robbery by a juvenile is now a capital offense punishable by death in your book... Hmmmm...

bfmorgan
12-11-2010, 13:47
My kids always hated my saying..."nothing good happens after midnight". As a parent, my child would not have been on the street after midnight. As a bad guy.....he wasn't very good....he lost his weapon and his life.

scubastud
12-11-2010, 13:55
I don't think anyone is happy a 17 year old lost his life.

Lulubelle
12-11-2010, 13:59
Somehow I doubt it was about her purse. Someone can have my purse if they want it. But if a armed male who is large enough to overpower me physically (most 17 year olds would be fully grown) approaches me in an aggressive way and appears to intend me harm, I'm going to do my best to stop him using any means necessary before I find out exactly what his intentions are. If a woman waits to find out exactly what a man's intentions are before trying to stop him, it's too late.

Vercingetorix
12-11-2010, 14:20
Obviously attempted armed robbery by a juvenile is now a capital offense punishable by death in your book... Hmmmm...

I return to my statement that when somebody pulls a weapon, then use of deadly force is justified. It is NOT that armed robbery is a capital offense justifying the death penalty. Rather, HE PULLED A WEAPON IN COMMISSION OF A CRIME. That is where I am focusing.


I don't think anyone is happy a 17 year old lost his life.
Bears repeating

What LuluBelle said.

Noob
12-11-2010, 14:32
Obviously attempted armed robbery by a juvenile is now a capital offense punishable by death in your book... Hmmmm...


I see more then one caught that.

Vercingetorix
12-11-2010, 14:35
I see more then one caught that.

Post # 15. Makes a BIG difference. If you're looking for an inconsistency, you won't find it. No, I do not view the world in absolutes. In THIS case, I repeat, THIS CASE, THIS CIRCUMSTANCE, THIS SITUATION, deadly force is justified.

ScubaToys Larry
12-11-2010, 14:45
Post # 15. Makes a BIG difference. If you're looking for an inconsistency, you won't find it. No, I do not view the world in absolutes. In THIS case, I repeat, THIS CASE, THIS CIRCUMSTANCE, THIS SITUATION, deadly force is justified.

Amazing... Sitting behind a computer, one can determine if death is justified, but you maintain that a dozen people sitting through a trial seeing evidence and witnesses can't. Wow.

Sitting at your PC, you know that this was not a case where the kid was seeing her daughter, she flipped, shot him and made up the story. You know that the gun was his and not hers. You know that she had to shoot, even after she had the gun in her possession to save her life.

That's down right amazing. Let's do away with the supreme court and try everyone on forums... but just for death penalty cases... .this works great!

scubastud
12-11-2010, 14:51
I like waffles.

navyhmc
12-11-2010, 15:01
I have to split the middle on this one: While we don't know the whole story and the dad may not have had much control over the son, I have seen more than a few of these types of stories where the young offender is commiting a violent crime and in that commision is either shot or shot and killed. In the majority of those cases there are usually some facts that are the same: This wasn't the youthful offender's first rodeo (in one case in, a 16 yo had 19 prior arrests for armed robbery), they either used violence or implied violence in the crime and the family is quick to respond that they are shocked and appaled that this happened.

As for armed robbery by a juvi being punishable by death: When he pulled the gun, it's no longer a juvi committing a crime, it's a criminal with a gun, age doesn't make a difference when deadly force is involved. Would it have made any difference to the victim if she was attacked by an adult with a gun (save maybe not as easy to disarm?) The offense wasn't capitol in nature, but he died because she defended herself against his attack. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

My thoughts go to the women who has to face the fact that she did indeed kill someone and hopes she can cometo pease with it quickly. I am sorry for the family of the now deceased young man as well.

Splitlip
12-11-2010, 15:13
He was very family-oriented, said Dwayne Heath Sr. He loved to be around his siblings.

Heath said his son was the oldest of seven and was a junior at Steel Valley High School.

I would like to know, to ease my mind, what happened, said Heath Sr. Bad or good, Id like to know.

Blah, blah, blah.

Was dad even part of the prick's life? Self fulfilling prophesy with these punks born of irresponsible parents.

I love it when they brag that "I take care of my kids." Well that's what a parent is supposed to do you jack-wagon!

Vercingetorix
12-11-2010, 15:25
Amazing... Sitting behind a computer, one can determine if death is justified...!

Fine. What do you propose she should have done? Consider that she is scared. She's staring into the business end of a weapon. Did he say, "Pretty please, give me your money. I would most certainly appreciate it." No, he threatened her. What was she to do after she had the gun in her hand? Did he run away, or did he come after her? Maybe she should have looked at him and asked him to please refrain from further action on his part. Not bloody likely.

I am not trying to be the Internet Tough Guy. I'm just saying that if I was scared for my life and the adrenaline was pumping, I would have shot first, and questioned morality later. Better to be judged by twelve than buried by six.

That said, as NavyHMC says below, once the threat is gone, then I would stop. If I shot the punk and he's down, I would then call 911 to get an ambulance.

So, if you were in her shoes, what would you have done?

navyhmc
12-11-2010, 15:33
I don't know the intent of either, but were this me, and I hope to god I never have to find out, my intent is to stop the threat. That's it, stop the threat. There is no shoot the gun out of his hand, there is only shoot to stop the threat. The person intending to harm me may indeed die from those wounds, but he intent is to stop them. There is no coup de gras, when the threat is gone, I stop. And due to my profession, who I am and if it's safe, I would be obliged to try to save the life of the person who would have easily and probably without remorse taken mine.

The closest I've come to using deadly force is when a guy tried to rob me with a knife. As I began to pull my gun and even before I could fully get it out of the holster, he took of running. Threat gone, gun holstered and now a call to 911. The funny part was as I started to draw, he did say "OH Shiat! your one of those" as he took off.

ScubaToys Larry
12-11-2010, 16:02
Fine. What do you propose she should have done? Consider that she is scared. She's staring into the business end of a weapon. Did he say, "Pretty please, give me your money. I would most certainly appreciate it." No, he threatened her.

How exactly do you know this?? How do you know it's not where she shot him? Do you know this guy? This girl? This Father?

I just love it when people claim with utmost authority that this 17 year old kid deserved to die, and his father was this and that...

We can be psychiatrists, attorneys, jurors and executioners all from sitting at a keyboard.

The internet is wonderful!

If someone wants to say, that "If" someone came up to them and threatened their life, and had a gun, and you grabbed the gun, and If that person got shot... it's justified... I can see that.

But for a bunch of people who were pleading their case that we don't know for sure if someone is guilty after a capitol murder trial, so we should abolish the death penalty, we sure got a bunch of folks to do a 180 condemn this kid to death based on a 100 word news article.

That's all I'm saying....

Vercingetorix
12-11-2010, 16:08
I just love it when people claim with utmost authority that this 17 year old kid deserved to die, and his father was this and that...

I claim, she had the right to defend herself, and in that defense, the punk died. She was not the instigator, given that no charges have been filed against her. She is the victim. When the kid initiated his threatening criminal action, he suffered the consequences of this actions at the hand of his intended victim.

Now, had the kid lived and be brought to trial, then I would not impose the death penalty. Had he killed her, and he be brought to trial, I would not impose the death penalty. I see no 180 here.

ScubaToys Larry
12-11-2010, 16:13
She was not the instigator, given that no charges have been filed against her.

Again... Awesome that you can know this from your keyboard... My brother is an ADA, and sometimes they have to go months of gathering info before they can asses what happened at a crime scene. Is it ok if he just calls you from now on?? You can read a news blurb, then tell them what happened?? This will save the tax payers a lot of money! Thanks!!!!!

Vercingetorix
12-11-2010, 16:16
Is it ok if he just calls you from now on?? You can read a news blurb, then tell them what happened?? This will save the tax payers a lot of money! Thanks!!!!!

I'm happy to help.

comet24
12-11-2010, 16:23
Every time I see an article like this the guy wasn't really bad or he was turning his life around but usually he has a long list of prior offenses. In the end none of that matters though this guy pull a gun on someone else. The victim has no idea what the BG's intend is at that point. If someone pulls a gun, knife or other deadly weapon on you you consider that they intend to use it and do whatever you can to protect yourself. Remember the victim didn't put herself in this position. The BG put her in this postion and whatever happens to the BG in an effort for the victim survive is what it is. You don't play games with your life you do whatever you have to do to survive and see you family again.

I feel sorry for the victim. She has to live with the fact that she took someone else's life. While it was justified most normal good people will feel something after this. Her life will forever be changed because of what this low life did and forced her to do. Maybe he would have turned out to be a productive member of society but how many other people would he have robbed before that. How long before he hurt or killed an innocent person.

Sorry but he put himself the postion that got him killed. The victim didn't.

BTW I used to term "victim" and "BG"(bag guy) because some here seem to forget the she was a victim and the other person was the BG/criminal.

dawnvip
12-11-2010, 22:09
This is what I'd do...

YouTube - Denny Crane gets robbed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pcVDmX4ho4)

ScubaToys Larry
12-11-2010, 22:29
So, perhaps it is because my brother is an ADA, but you guys sure seem to take a news article as truth beyond a shadow.....

I'll go with, "If" the story was actually as portrayed... then if he get's killed, it was his fault... you should not be robbing someone with a gun. And his dad was a terrible parent.

I don't know the actual facts though... and neither does anyone else at this point. People likes slamming the dad.... do you know the story?? What if he was divorced 15 years ago, and the son was raised by the mother and some step dad... now at age 17, he gets the rights to come back and meet his real dad.... But he had an abusive step dad for 15 years... does try to rob someone... is this the fault of the Dad who wants to know what happened??

How many 38 year old women can disarm a 17 year old male who has a gun? Is there any doubt that maybe this story is not 100% right?? But no problem... so much for that innocent until proven guilty. Hope you guys all get a fairer shake if anyone accuses you of something in your life... hopefully a news story doesn't come out saying you are guilty... because then it must be true! You read it on the internet!

Again.. if someone pulls a gun, and tries to rob someone, and then they get killed... I agree - they asked for it, and so be it... but how can you make such a snap decision on the guilt, innocence and fathers parenting based on a few paragraphs in a news article. No wonder it's a pain in the butt for my brother to even find a decent jury for doing a murder trial.

bfmorgan
12-12-2010, 06:23
I have to split the middle on this one: While we don't know the whole story and the dad may not have had much control over the son, I have seen more than a few of these types of stories where the young offender is commiting a violent crime and in that commision is either shot or shot and killed. In the majority of those cases there are usually some facts that are the same: This wasn't the youthful offender's first rodeo (in one case in, a 16 yo had 19 prior arrests for armed robbery), they either used violence or implied violence in the crime and the family is quick to respond that they are shocked and appaled that this happened.

As for armed robbery by a juvi being punishable by death: When he pulled the gun, it's no longer a juvi committing a crime, it's a criminal with a gun, age doesn't make a difference when deadly force is involved. Would it have made any difference to the victim if she was attacked by an adult with a gun (save maybe not as easy to disarm?) The offense wasn't capitol in nature, but he died because she defended herself against his attack. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

My thoughts go to the women who has to face the fact that she did indeed kill someone and hopes she can cometo pease with it quickly. I am sorry for the family of the now deceased young man as well.

I don't believe anyone on this forum wants to see someone die....especially at the age of 17. At the same time, the person with the gun is making the decisions.....you can not determine the intent of the bad guy....therefore, you have to assume the worst and act accordingly. I have a friend who doesn't always wants to know why when police use deadly force they just don't shoot the bad guy in the arm. Marksmanship in these situations is seriously impaired, and if the situation is dire enough that you have to pull the trigger, then you have made the decision that this is a use of deadly force. From the news story, there was jeopardy for the woman, the perpetrator had the opportunity (close proximity), and ability (possessed a weapon) to do great bodily harm causing death. It should reach the self defense standard in most states.

Vercingetorix
12-12-2010, 07:01
Again.. if someone pulls a gun, and tries to rob someone, and then they get killed... I agree - they asked for it, and so be it...
That summarizes my argument. That's all I ever said. It's the perp's fault.


No wonder it's a pain in the butt for my brother to even find a decent jury for doing a murder trial.

A few months ago, I was called for jury duty in Dallas on a capital murder case. There were three accused involved, but no clear evidence as to which one actually killed the victim in a robbery gone bad. This trial was for one of the three men. When I was questioned, I was asked about the death sentence. I stated I was opposed. The ADA stated the death penalty was off the table; the maximum would be life without parole. I stated that the ADA would have to prove that the accused pulled the trigger; otherwise, I could not convict. The ADA mentioned that according to Texas law, accomplices can be found guilty even without proof they pulled the trigger. I responded I would have a hard time convicting a person to life without parole if he was only an accomplice. From a prior questionaire, the ADA knew I supported Jury Nullification as well (which he also thoroughly grilled me on). I was not selected to serve on the jury.

If the above makes me a bad juror candidate, because I need for a man to be proven guilty of the crime for which he is being tried, then I'm okay with that.

scubastud
12-12-2010, 07:25
It looks like we have two seperate issues here.
Self defense , and the right to trial by jury.
These are two seperate things. If someone feels threatened, they should not have to think about all the law stuff and such. Of course the story isn't fully told, but I will give the victim the benifit of the doubt, we are not on the jury, there are not even any charges filed re this case (yet if ever).
I see nothing wrong with a friendly discussion here on this board.

The original post was referring to the dad's comments. I agree with Larry that really good parents can still have a messed up kid, like ohh I dunno, my parents and my lowlife brother.
I have a brother that is a respected doctor, and I have a brother that is a mixed up drug/booze abuser that served time for armned robbery.
If the latter brother happened to be killed during his stupid attempt to rob a Denny's , we would have been sad and everything, but none of us would have blamed mom and pop.

ScubaToys Larry
12-12-2010, 08:04
That summarizes my argument. That's all I ever said. It's the perp's fault.




If the above makes me a bad juror candidate, because I need for a man to be proven guilty of the crime for which he is being tried, then I'm okay with that.

Then how come you have glanced over every post I have made saying we really don't know the facts of this case, and there is the chance that the actual story is much different than what we are hearing? You quote me above... but left out the very, very important, and quoted "IF" from my posts.... Again... If... but you don't know the kid, the parent, the evidence...

This strikes me just like some of the scuba accident posts I see on other boards. Someone dies, and everyone dog piles on someone saying nasty things about a human that lost their life - while no one was there... or knows what happened. They'll instantly blame it on skills, training, something.... but we don't know... what if it was bad air, what if was medical - stroke, heart attack, etc.

Same thing here... Perhaps people should take a step back, and understand that saying a 17 year old kid deserved to die, and his father is a dead beat is a bit over the top for a bunch of people that actually have no idea what really happened.

but everyone is all knowing and all powerful on a forum.... Oh well...

And read scubastud's post about kids... And I have a very good friend that had to give up a kid in a divorce, then years later came back and got into trouble after a week. If that friend of mine said "I just want to find out what happened..." you would all call him a dead beat dad??

Vercingetorix
12-12-2010, 08:15
I return to my original comments. The father says "I would like to know what happened." My response, "I'll tell you what happened. Your juvie kid was out past mid-night with a gun. He threatened somebody and, she wasted him." Those are the facts. There is no condemnation of the father nor commentary on his parenting skills.

The father stated that he was family-oriented. Then why was this criminal not home with his family instead of wandering the streets looking for a victim? Again, this is a fact, and there is no commentary on the father.

I never blamed the father for his son's failure. All I ever said is that it's the perp's fault that he died while in commission of a crime. Am I sorry he's gone? Not really. Am I sorry that a family is shattered by the loss of their eldest? Yes I am. My prayers go out to the father, the mothers, the siblings.

ScubaToys Larry
12-12-2010, 08:32
I return to my original comments. The father says "I would like to know what happened." My response, "I'll tell you what happened. Your juvie kid was out past mid-night with a gun.

And how do you know that he had the gun, and it wasn't that this lady had the gun, and just shot him? You were asking a jury to prove which guy pulled the trigger, but on the internet, no one even has to prove who had the gun... You just make the assumption based on a news article. So you won't convict based on attorney's and judges, but a writer... sure.... Amazing...

Vercingetorix
12-12-2010, 08:37
Your ADA brother would question the woman/victim on the stand. If she is the only witness to this crime, then the ADA's case would rest entirely on her testimony. The jury's verdict would rely on this testimony. The author of this article is relying on that same testimony. Until further facts/evidence comes forth, I must rely on this testimony to form my opinion. Amazing? Not really.

I have reviewed every post I made in this thread. Nowhere do I blame the father. Yet, somehow, my OP is construed as blaming the father. There is no evidence in my posts that supports that conclusion.

bfmorgan
12-12-2010, 08:45
For older individuals if it is written, then it is the truth
For those in the younger age ranges, if it is on television or youTube then it is the proof.

I work in the world of video and broadcasting. To defend the news department, they try to get all of the information, and then confirm it, before going to air. Works most of the time, but there are times when there is more to the story.....
If you are older and it is in print book/newspaper it gains a high level of trust by the reader
For the younger generations, video/youtube lends credence to an event, news report, etc.

This has been an interesting thread, with really two threads....was the woman justified in shooting, and could she take the gun away (one thread) and do you believe everything you read or see (second thread). Both threads have been interesting. Time will determine what really happened.

Deadly force will always be closely scrutinized by law enforcement and the prosecuting attorney/district attorney. It would be interesting to have more insight into what actually happened.......

ScubaToys Larry
12-12-2010, 08:59
Your ADA brother would question the woman/victim on the stand. If she is the only witness to this crime, then the ADA's case would rest entirely on her testimony. The jury's verdict would rely on this testimony. The author of this article is relying on that same testimony.
Gee, maybe you should have been an ADA... oh, except for overlooking finger print evidence, tracking the origin of the handgun, other witnesses, and on, and on....




Until further facts/evidence comes forth, I must rely on this testimony to form my opinion. Amazing? Not really.


Actually, Past amazing... to say someone deserved to die based on what a reporter said someone else said... wow... I'm out....

Splitlip
12-12-2010, 09:22
This is what I'd do...

YouTube - Denny Crane gets robbed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pcVDmX4ho4)

:smiley32::smiley32::smiley32: