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View Full Version : What is the best method to secure the Octo?



WaScubaDude
09-13-2007, 19:02
There are so many options, some I would worry might pull the mouth piece off durring deployment. What have you found that really works, both secure off the boat & easily deployed?

CompuDude
09-13-2007, 19:04
Snorkel keeper. $2. Works great!

ScubaToys Larry
09-13-2007, 19:12
This is the guy I use: http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=BCOH2+

http://www.scubatoys.com/store/accessories/clips/pics/bcoh2.jpg

It's velcro in there... the cord has a soft velcro patch sewn onto it, and you loop that around the hose next to the 1st stage then tighten it down with the barrel lock. The other part clips on a d-ring. The yellow part there is actually 2 pieces with the hard velcro, so you put the soft velcro in there, and it secures it from both sides.

Any one needs it.. give a pull, and it's not on the mouthpiece. To put it back, just shove the soft velcro in there and squeeze it shut. Very fast, simple and cheap.

WaScubaDude
09-13-2007, 19:20
Thanks Larry,
I will add (2) to my order.

ScubaToys Larry
09-13-2007, 19:24
Thanks Larry,
I will add (2) to my order.

Heck... just thank me 3 more times and your gift cert will pay for both of them! :smiley20:

divingmedic
09-13-2007, 19:32
I use a scum ball that is clipped to my BC.

ScubaToys Larry
09-13-2007, 19:34
I use a scum ball that is clipped to my BC.

We need Joe to work.. he can't just follow you around with your.. err... oh.. You said scuba ball!

Never mind.

subsur
09-13-2007, 19:47
Octo Holder for Second Stage item# AC2086 from http://www.diveriteexpress.com

ScubaToys Larry
09-13-2007, 19:58
Octo Holder for Second Stage item# AC2086 from http://www.diveriteexpress.com

You're talking about a necklace: http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=MantaRegulatorNecklace

I don't like to wear mine there, but if someone does.. that is an option.

Zenagirl
09-13-2007, 20:22
We use the ones like Larry. Sometimes the velcro gives during a giant stride entry, but it's easier to restick than cramming the mouthpiece into a snorkel holder....or at least it is for me. ;) Yeah, I speak from many personal experiences. :D

sudnit5
09-14-2007, 13:27
I also like what Larry suggested, I will be getting some.

Bill22
09-14-2007, 14:16
Octo Holder for Second Stage item# AC2086 from http://www.diveriteexpress.com

You're talking about a necklace: http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=MantaRegulatorNecklace

I don't like to wear mine there, but if someone does.. that is an option.

I've been thinking about going with this option myself as that is the recommended way for DIR diving. I'm going to start doing some wreck diving.

I'm curious... Is there a particular reason you don't like this method or is it just personal preference?

picxie
09-14-2007, 16:18
I've tried several octo holders and none of them have worked. I was sick of jumping from the boat and having to reposition it after it fell out. Or half way through a dive it would fall out. I purchased one of those ones that Larry has and although I have not yet used it, it seems to me that it will do the trick very well. My only concern might be that the velcro will loose its 'stick' over time ?? ... but then I purchased one of the other ones similar to that one, just in case that happens!

thor
09-14-2007, 16:34
This is the guy I use: http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=BCOH2+



It's velcro in there... the cord has a soft velcro patch sewn onto it, and you loop that around the hose next to the 1st stage then tighten it down with the barrel lock. The other part clips on a d-ring. The yellow part there is actually 2 pieces with the hard velcro, so you put the soft velcro in there, and it secures it from both sides.

Any one needs it.. give a pull, and it's not on the mouthpiece. To put it back, just shove the soft velcro in there and squeeze it shut. Very fast, simple and cheap.



Can someone post a picture of this on the BC?

Ajuva
09-14-2007, 16:41
I made something similair from a link on the site.

Used a piece of shock cord, put a knot in eother end and cable tied it to the mouthpiece of my octo.

Works perfectly, plus when the noob steals your primary its sooo easy to lift and use.

Manny-R
09-14-2007, 18:04
i use one of those bright colored things that the mouthpiece is crammed in to... yet to have it fall out after a giant stride or during a dive... and it was cheap!

coralcrazed
09-14-2007, 21:18
the clip that people have shown here is great. However, have you thought about combining the octo with the low pressure inflator? It not only saves you in getting a clip it also makes you more streamlined by eliminating a whole tube. hope that helped.

Phestr
09-14-2007, 22:05
the clip that people have shown here is great. However, have you thought about combining the octo with the low pressure inflator? It not only saves you in getting a clip it also makes you more streamlined by eliminating a whole tube. hope that helped.

The only problem with the the octo-inflater thing is that in an emergency, your buddy almost has to take your primary out of your mouth. If you see him coming, great. But say you have your head turned at the exact moment he needs it (I dive with Murphy). Now, either he has to get your attention, or rip it out of your mouth. It also means that, in the throws of something bad happening, BOTH you are off air at the same time.

Sure, it's not the most likely scenario. But I like to think that the octo is not for me, it's for my buddy, and it should be where he can get it whenever he needs it. If it's in my mouth, it's not for him.

As for holding the octo, I too use the stuff-the-mouthpeice sort. Works great, can be attached with velcro or carabiner, and low drag.

Capt Hook
09-14-2007, 23:25
I use one that clips to a d-ring and fits into the mouth piece, takes a tug to get it off.

Tableleg
09-15-2007, 23:31
I use a velcro cable wrap I found on a Dell server chassie that we were scrapping.

I knew Dell was good for something. :smiley36:

Kidder
09-15-2007, 23:45
I use the scum ball myself with mixed results. It falls out some times. I've found that a snorkle keeper works well, but its a little hard to get the octo mouth piece in the hole.

Damselfish
09-15-2007, 23:53
I use a thing that's like a snorkel keeper but clip on one end and the loop is rectangular instead of round. I've had no luck with the scum balls.

This is one of those things you will probably try a variety of ways and wind up with a collection of little gizmos that didn't work for you.

Tod
09-18-2007, 19:06
I made something similair from a link on the site.

Used a piece of shock cord, put a knot in eother end and cable tied it to the mouthpiece of my octo.

Works perfectly, plus when the noob steals your primary its sooo easy to lift and use.

I will second that this home-made approach has worked well for me. I can almost access it without using my hands (if I catch the mouthpiece just right with my chin). I use this set-up for my pony bottle.

My primary (Sherwood Maximum) is on a longer hose (not a 7' DIR length), made to go under my arm and has a swivel end. It is easy to hand off to someone else, and then I can get the one around my neck if need be.

And for what it's worth, I also have the octo that mounts to my BC hose. I would never give that one to anyone else as then I'd lose control (possibly) of my BC inflation. If I need it (say I didn't have my pony) then I can access my BC inflation myself.

My very first octo holder was one of those velcro tab deals. I found it was a pain to pull away as the velcro almost held too well. Getting it back in was not so quick and easy (with heavy gloves on), but it wasn't impossible. Personally, I didn't care for it.

WV Diver
09-18-2007, 19:50
I use a scum ball that is clipped to my BC.

We need Joe to work.. he can't just follow you around with your.. err... oh.. You said scuba ball!

Never mind.
You are shameless. :smiley32:

Bill22
09-18-2007, 19:57
I use the scum ball myself with mixed results. It falls out some times. I've found that a snorkle keeper works well, but its a little hard to get the octo mouth piece in the hole.

I tried the ball also, but had no luck at all. It just didn't want to stay in. I'm doing a lot of shore diving, I would get hit by a wave and it would pop out. I was constantly having to put it back. Now I'm using the bungee clip and that is more secure. I'm planning now on picking up a longer hose and going to the necklace arrangement.

I'll be doing my Wreck Diving cert next month in the Philippines and the longer hose seems like a good idea since I'll be diving in an overhead environment.

DennisW
09-19-2007, 08:53
Mine is semi-permanently attached to my fill hose.

rfb3
02-28-2008, 17:27
This is the guy I use: BCOH2 , Accessories-Clips & Retractors, Cetecea, BCOH2 (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=BCOH2+)

http://www.scubatoys.com/store/accessories/clips/pics/bcoh2.jpg

It's velcro in there... the cord has a soft velcro patch sewn onto it, and you loop that around the hose next to the 1st stage then tighten it down with the barrel lock. The other part clips on a d-ring. The yellow part there is actually 2 pieces with the hard velcro, so you put the soft velcro in there, and it secures it from both sides.

Any one needs it.. give a pull, and it's not on the mouthpiece. To put it back, just shove the soft velcro in there and squeeze it shut. Very fast, simple and cheap.

Me too!:smiley20:

cmburch
02-28-2008, 17:47
I have both a Dive Rite and a Cetacea mouthpiece shaped Octo holders. I clip to my shoulder d-ring. I like the mouthpiece shape the best - less chance of sand or dirt when on land. They have never come lose and are easy to locate and pull off when needed.

ianr33
02-28-2008, 17:58
[quote=Kidder;53155]
I'll be doing my Wreck Diving cert next month in the Philippines and the longer hose seems like a good idea since I'll be diving in an overhead environment.

I would say a long hose is obligatory in an overhead environment,not merely a good idea !

Have fun on your course.

Jellybeandiver
02-28-2008, 18:20
the octo neck holders are very popular with a lot of people I know. As they say your buddy or someone out of air is likely to go for your reg so with the octo right there you can put it in your mouth right then

CompuDude
02-28-2008, 18:28
I use a long hose and bungee necklaced secondary, normally, but for regular BCs (which I use for pool sessions), it's hard to beat the price, convenience, durability, ease of replacement, and simplicity of a simple little snorkel keeper looped around a D-ring.

http://h2ogeek.com/divegear/misc/Octo-retainer-IMG_5271%20(Small).JPGhttp://h2ogeek.com/divegear/misc/Octo-retainer-IMG_5272%20(Small).JPG

marchand
02-28-2008, 22:30
I use the necklace personally; it goes well with my long hose.

justaddwater_ifukuda
02-28-2008, 22:53
I use a snorkel keeper as well. It's simple, inexpensive, secure, and keeps the octopus close to the body.

rye_a
02-29-2008, 00:16
I used a snorkel holder, which I liked, but now I am switching to a Zeagle Octo-Z for streamlining.

Hollywood703
03-01-2008, 08:35
Octo inflator so not a problem. :) My pony reg is attached upper right strap of my BC via rubber band....Its cheap and I can Break it easily by pulling on it if needed quickly.

MLenyo
03-01-2008, 23:07
I use a long hose and bungee necklaced secondary, normally, but for regular BCs (which I use for pool sessions), it's hard to beat the price, convenience, durability, ease of replacement, and simplicity of a simple little snorkel keeper looped around a D-ring.



does the snorkel keeper stretch easily, and how easy is it to pull the alternate out of it?

JahJahwarrior
03-01-2008, 23:59
I use a long hose and bungee necklaced secondary, normally, but for regular BCs (which I use for pool sessions), it's hard to beat the price, convenience, durability, ease of replacement, and simplicity of a simple little snorkel keeper looped around a D-ring.



does the snorkel keeper stretch easily, and how easy is it to pull the alternate out of it?

It's not too hard to get out, certainly not any harder than one of the bungee cord loop things.


Personally, I love having my octo on a necklace. It's nice and streamlined, and I can get it in my mouth without needing my hands, if I work at it for a few seconds with my chin :) That way no matter what could happen with my hands, say they get tangled up or something, and my buddy is OOA at the same time, I don't have any problem getting air myself.

You can make one yourself with about 2 feet of surgical tubing or bungee cord and two zipties for about $3. Some people like to, instead of leaving a mouthhole for the reg to fit into, ziptie the surgical tubing or bungee to the mouthpiece, by putting it under the mouthpiece ziptie. This method also works well.

Crimediver
03-02-2008, 03:07
I second the necklace. Works great for me.

CompuDude
03-02-2008, 04:54
I use a long hose and bungee necklaced secondary, normally, but for regular BCs (which I use for pool sessions), it's hard to beat the price, convenience, durability, ease of replacement, and simplicity of a simple little snorkel keeper looped around a D-ring.



does the snorkel keeper stretch easily, and how easy is it to pull the alternate out of it?

You just hook a finger in it and pull to stretch it and pop it in. It holds it pretty firmly, but still pops out with a sharp yank no problem.

Again, outside the pool I prefer I necklaced backup. But if you're not willing to change your hose setup, the snorkel keeper works very well for a traditional octo setup.

MLenyo
03-02-2008, 05:31
I use a long hose and bungee necklaced secondary, normally, but for regular BCs (which I use for pool sessions), it's hard to beat the price, convenience, durability, ease of replacement, and simplicity of a simple little snorkel keeper looped around a D-ring.



does the snorkel keeper stretch easily, and how easy is it to pull the alternate out of it?

You just hook a finger in it and pull to stretch it and pop it in. It holds it pretty firmly, but still pops out with a sharp yank no problem.

Again, outside the pool I prefer I necklaced backup. But if you're not willing to change your hose setup, the snorkel keeper works very well for a traditional octo setup.

i'm going to be looking into getting a single tank DIR hose package, we'll have to see what it costs! i also have to ask my LDS if i can use a long hose primary for rescue. would you recommend a 5' or 7' primary? (mainly rec dives in open water)

DivingCRNA
03-02-2008, 07:00
I am not a DIR guy. But I dive a 7 foot hose and use the necklace for my secondary and LOVE it.

marchand
03-02-2008, 14:19
Another good thing about having it on a necklace is that if it starts to free flow you know it right away.

CompuDude
03-02-2008, 14:43
i'm going to be looking into getting a single tank DIR hose package, we'll have to see what it costs! i also have to ask my LDS if i can use a long hose primary for rescue. would you recommend a 5' or 7' primary? (mainly rec dives in open water)

Depends on what BC you have. If you have a regular BC, it's sometimes not easy to deal with the extra hose length of a full 7' hose. And depending on your body size, a 5' may or may not be enough. It's one of those things you sort of have to try out, with a regular BC, because there are so many variables.

With a bp/w it's a no-brainer... get the 7' hose.

Duckydiver
03-19-2008, 15:42
I use a rubber loop on a plastic clip that works well.

JimHar99
03-22-2008, 09:33
I also use the snorkel keeper. As others have said, there is no problem getting the octo out when needed.

BuzzF117
03-22-2008, 10:15
The gear I used while getting certified just had a silicone snorkel keeper thing that worked great. I have seen other places use these also. Personally I use a Scubapro Air2 but if I had an octo unit I would use the silicone snorkel holder.

malley1717
03-24-2008, 14:58
i use this crappy thing that i have to jam the mouthpiece into, but now im gunna get the clip thing that larry posted. Thanks Larry/ ST

Rockhound76
03-27-2008, 17:05
I had a scum ball that was a pain with my oversized mouthpiece (no comment on my mouthpiece) I picked up a magnet clip at a dive show a few months ago. So far, after 20 dives, it works great and has never come loose (VERY strong magnet).

I worried about corrosion (magnets do that), but it still looks fine, as it's coated. I keep it away from my compass.

mentalmarine
03-27-2008, 18:32
I bought a scum ball....it was my nemesis for several dives! Now it sits in my closet, and occasionally my dog plays with it. I went with the necklace after that.

diver 85
03-30-2008, 01:12
There are so many options, some I would worry might pull the mouth piece off durring deployment. What have you found that really works, both secure off the boat & easily deployed?

here's what I use......
http://www.leisurepro.com/Image/Product/Full/AQUOH.jpg

ReefHound
03-30-2008, 10:30
You just hook a finger in it and pull to stretch it and pop it in. It holds it pretty firmly, but still pops out with a sharp yank no problem.

Again, outside the pool I prefer I necklaced backup. But if you're not willing to change your hose setup, the snorkel keeper works very well for a traditional octo setup.

What a great idea! As a DM I'm constantly dealing with students whose octos are dragging because they have nothing to secure it with. Why the shop lets rental gear go out to a student without the clips to keep things secure is a mystery, but one I must deal with. At first I tried using a spare necklace or "official" octo keeper but found that new students don't like anything around their neck and loaner accessories tend to disappear. And I can only keep so many $15 spares on hand. But a snorkel keeper is cheap enough that I can keep a bunch of 'em on hand and not care if they walk off. And it's the kind of improvisation that leaves not only the students but the instructors saying "gee, now that's clever".

rawalker
03-30-2008, 12:52
the octo neck holders are very popular with a lot of people I know. As they say your buddy or someone out of air is likely to go for your reg so with the octo right there you can put it in your mouth right then
If this is a case of your buddy grabbing your reg then the purpose of having a separate octo becomes a null point. Having all that extra hose and wrapping something around your neck doesn't seem like it is intuitive although I would say having the octo that close at hand or close to your mouth is.
At this point though, since it may turn into a reg swap anyway I'd rather opt for the breathable inflator. It is often in my hand anyway. It eliminates extra hose adding to streamlining for all the reasons that is done. And it is very easy to find (if not in hand) if my reg is ripped from my mouth for whatever reason.
And finally it eliminates the whole keeper issue!

ReefHound
03-30-2008, 13:04
To each his own but try doing a dive - or at least a full ascent from depth with safety stop - breathing solely from the octo inflator.

rawalker
03-31-2008, 01:30
To each his own but try doing a dive - or at least a full ascent from depth with safety stop - breathing solely from the octo inflator.
I wouldn't be doing a dive on an octo. I've practiced a safety stop on my own using the inflator. I know a safety stop with a buddy on my primary second stage would be a PIA but this is only for an emergency. In an emergency althought the safety stop is prefered it is still optional for a increased safety margin. Since all my dives are no deco and I plan to keep it that way again I don't see the reason for all the extra hose and something around my neck.
Agreed it is personal preference, but thinking about the logic behind the gear. Is it really worth carrying all the extra hose and octo just for an emergency situation that should happen very rarely, When other less combersome gear can handle the same situation adaquately?

CompuDude
03-31-2008, 02:43
To each his own but try doing a dive - or at least a full ascent from depth with safety stop - breathing solely from the octo inflator.
I wouldn't be doing a dive on an octo. I've practiced a safety stop on my own using the inflator. I know a safety stop with a buddy on my primary second stage would be a PIA but this is only for an emergency. In an emergency althought the safety stop is prefered it is still optional for a increased safety margin. Since all my dives are no deco and I plan to keep it that way again I don't see the reason for all the extra hose and something around my neck.
Agreed it is personal preference, but thinking about the logic behind the gear. Is it really worth carrying all the extra hose and octo just for an emergency situation that should happen very rarely, When other less combersome gear can handle the same situation adaquately?

If you ever dove the full configuration, you'd find it's not nearly as cumbersome as it looks. It really doesn't get much more streamlined, believe it or not.

mb104
03-31-2008, 08:50
I use the dive necklace. It keeps it nice and close. The chances are that if your buddy (or someone else) is out of air, and grabs for your gas, they will grab your primary from your mouth. The necklace method places the reg directly underneath your chin.

Here is the link...
DiveSeekers.com 888-SCUBA-47 (http://www.diveseekers.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=necklace)

ReefHound
03-31-2008, 09:51
To each his own but try doing a dive - or at least a full ascent from depth with safety stop - breathing solely from the octo inflator.
I wouldn't be doing a dive on an octo. I've practiced a safety stop on my own using the inflator. I know a safety stop with a buddy on my primary second stage would be a PIA but this is only for an emergency.

You miss the point. The test isn't to see if you can breathe off it while doing a stop but if you can vent from it while ascending AND breathing off it. You may also find yourself doing a dive on it if your buddy runs out of air and immediate ascent is not a good option. As for being a PIA, it's during an emergency when you will be highly stressed when minor annoyances become major obstacles.

You've apparently got it all figured out already but you may want to step back and wonder why the majority of highly experienced and active divers don't use an octo inflater.

MSilvia
03-31-2008, 10:15
Having all that extra hose and wrapping something around your neck doesn't seem like it is intuitive
It may not be intuitive, but a long hose works very well and is easy to deploy. It's a misconception that it's wrapped around your neck though. That makes it sound like some kind of noose or something, and that isn't really the case. It's more like it routes behind your neck.

In any case, I have a box (or had a box... I may have thrown it out) full of assorted scum balls, velcro holders, mouthpiece shaped dinguses, and other various and sundry octo keepers I've tried over the years, and there are only two that I've found to be simple and reliable. They are the snorkle keeper and the bungie necklace. It's an interesting note that those are also the two least expensive of the lot. I've probably spent $60 on keeper gadgets over the years, and the best of them cost just over 1$ each.

In all fairness, I haven't tried the thing Larry recommended, and it might be fantastic. Since I found something less expensive that works flawlessly (and which from the look of it would dangle less), I'm personally not inclined to toss more money at yet another doodad.

mentalmarine
03-31-2008, 10:18
I find that ducttape does the trick, and it comes in a variety of colors. Although I prefer the standard silver as it is easier to see in an emergency. You just wrap that octo up about 5 or 6 times, you wouldnt believe how well it keeps the sand and crap out.

scubasavvy
03-31-2008, 14:15
I just ordered the velcro clip mentioned in the beginning and some other gadgets including a retractor for the computer :naughty: from Larry and the folks at Scuba Toys. I'll let you guys know how it works out.

rawalker
03-31-2008, 15:00
You miss the point. The test isn't to see if you can breathe off it while doing a stop but if you can vent from it while ascending AND breathing off it. You may also find yourself doing a dive on it if your buddy runs out of air and immediate ascent is not a good option. As for being a PIA, it's during an emergency when you will be highly stressed when minor annoyances become major obstacles.

You've apparently got it all figured out already but you may want to step back and wonder why the majority of highly experienced and active divers don't use an octo inflater.

Yes I can vent it while breathing on it. Either by grabbing the inflator hose and tugging or using my other shoulder dump valve.
Again I would hope that the emergency is rare but am sure the equipment is adaquate to get through it.

Apparently when you dissagree with someone instead of logically discussing the other persons point of view you'd rather make a rude remark like "You've apparently got it all figured out already" That really doesn't help anyone.

As for highly experienced active divers I have talked to and dove with a number. Many select their equipment based on specialized needs for the type of diving they prefer to do. Others because of requirements to instruct.
I'm sure you know the line about everybody jumping off a bridge. In this instance I don't think that is the case.
Many fine divers use breathable inflators, as do many use standard octos and still others use long hoses. I've heard the arguement that new divers shouldn't be exposed to the variations of equipment but that really isn't the case here because using the long hose is a variant as much as the inflator is.

It is a matter of what is best suited to the diver and the diving they will be doing. It is also a matter of once the selection is made practicing to make sure you understand and can properly use the gear you have selected.

I happened to be on a dive boat in San Carlos 2 weeks ago and noticed an instructor with his students. He happened to have a breathable inflator on his BC and I asked him about it. (having discussed then with a great number of instructors and being told that the standard style octo was required for classes) It happened to be this instructors preference but I had not noticed the extra hose tucked with a standard octo.

Out of about a dozen instructors I spoke with before purchasing my own breathable inflator. Half said they did or would prefer it when using a jacket style BC but needed a standard octo to teach with. The other half preferred a tech outfit with long hoses. (but also used standard jackets and octo to teach with) I found the later group to be divers largely with interests in doubles, wreck diving and in general those that had interests in more advanced types of diving.

Seems to me that there are some divides in the dive community but to just shut down communications and say my way is the only correct way seems to be closed minded. I at least expressed the reasoning behind my decisions. If those aren't sound I'd surely like to hear why.

I know there are limitations to my selections but they are based on the type of diving I am involved in. I've still tried to be a good buddy and provided adaquate safety provisions. I have tested my equipment to make sure it is a workable solution in an emergency. The fact of the matter is though that the gear has to make me comfortable during dives.
If you don't feel that what I'm providing to a buddy is sufficiant then don't buddy up with me. I'm not going diving to risk my life rescueing others on an ongoing basis I go to enjoy the underwater world and if an emergency presents itself I'll deal with it the best I can at the time and given the situation but my safety and comfort always comes first!

I'm sorry if this has turned into a thread hijacking but I do feel that my answer is a good and viable alternative to answer the original question. yes it depends on the divers needs but we all don't have requirements that require tech oriented rigs.

Reefhound: You seem to be experience and knowledgeable. What you are lacking is tact and patience and the understanding that others may have viewpoint from prospectives that don't match yours. Their abilities and thresholds are different from yours. If and how they react to conditions of stress vary. How they handle others that may or may not be stressed varies greatly. In most cases a OOA diver who is given air by a buddy will calm down after realizing they now have air. If the supplying buddy stays calm the situation is nothing more than an annoyance and inconvienience. The worst case is both divers to be stressing (and there really isn't a good reason for it)

Maybe it is you that should step back and evaluate what your requirements are and then take the prospective of divers involved with differing aspects of the sport. If you then feel that your requirements should be what others should be using all the time then read my signature line!

UCFKnightDiver
03-31-2008, 15:17
If the supplying buddy stays calm the situation is nothing more than an annoyance and inconvienience. The worst case is both divers to be stressing (and there really isn't a good reason for it)

!

you really cant guarantee that you the buddy offering gas wont be stressed, and I must agree with others comments that if you have minor annoyances like venting and such with an integrated octo then it will turn into major problems in emergencys I would suggest if you continue to use a integrated octo/inflator that you only use your dump valve pulls to vent instead of using your inflator hose

also you cannot guarantee that your buddy will completely calm down after being given air I would think that they would still be a bit difficult to deal with etc

rawalker
03-31-2008, 15:37
If the supplying buddy stays calm the situation is nothing more than an annoyance and inconvienience. The worst case is both divers to be stressing (and there really isn't a good reason for it)

!

you really cant guarantee that you the buddy offering gas wont be stressed, and I must agree with others comments that if you have minor annoyances like venting and such with an integrated octo then it will turn into major problems in emergencys I would suggest if you continue to use a integrated octo/inflator that you only use your dump valve pulls to vent instead of using your inflator hose

I agree you everyone reacts differently to stress was my point. If you are clear headed as a air donor you'll realize you are the one in control of the situaltion and therefore be able to use the equipment you've trained to use. This takes some self assessment before making the equipment choice.
If you loose your head under stress you may not be able to properly use any equipment no matter how well thought out or designed. In this case the safest thing would be to pick a different sport not different equipment.

As for venting I also agree that the shoulder pull is best but having a dump valve on the integrated octo/inflator it does make sense to practice using that valve also just in case the line breaks on your shoulder dump valve and you need to vent you can. I've also practiced removing the octo from my mouth holding it up and venting from the inflator. This would be my last choice but it can be done.

CompuDude
03-31-2008, 15:53
As long as you have practiced using your integrated octo/inflator, I see no problem with using one in a recreational situation. I still would not choose one for my use, even in those same situations, but if you're comfortable with it and have practiced (and continue to periodically practice) using it, I would not argue with your choice to use one.

ReefHound
03-31-2008, 16:21
Reefhound: You seem to be experience and knowledgeable. What you are lacking is tact and patience and the understanding that others may have viewpoint from prospectives that don't match yours. Their abilities and thresholds are different from yours. If and how they react to conditions of stress vary. How they handle others that may or may not be stressed varies greatly. In most cases a OOA diver who is given air by a buddy will calm down after realizing they now have air. If the supplying buddy stays calm the situation is nothing more than an annoyance and inconvienience. The worst case is both divers to be stressing (and there really isn't a good reason for it)

I've discussed the logic and reasons clearly. You may note that I never said you shouldn't use an octo inflator, I merely stated the concerns and challenged you to address them. And I meant in the water, not in a chair.

What I don't have the patience for is someone with less than 20 dives with such supreme confidence that they understand all the gear configurations and diving situations and know what works best for them. Frankly, there hasn't been time enough for anything to work or not work best for you.

Yet this baseless confidence pales in comparison to talking about what an OOA diver does in most cases or how you or anyone else would react to stress, especially when you haven't even had rescue training where you will find even the adrenaline of a practice scenario has it's effects. I can only laugh though, knowing in 100 dives you will look back and understand.

I'm reminded of this line I once saw - "at 40 dives I was amazed at how much I knew, at 100 dives I was amazed at how much I didn't know".

(I'm sorry if I hurt your feelers because I don't put your armchair expertise on even par with my firsthand experience.)

ReefHound
03-31-2008, 16:24
As long as you have practiced using your integrated octo/inflator, I see no problem with using one in a recreational situation. I still would not choose one for my use, even in those same situations, but if you're comfortable with it and have practiced (and continue to periodically practice) using it, I would not argue with your choice to use one.

I completely agree only he hasn't really practiced much and when challenged to do so simply dismisses the need for it because he doesn't intend to dive on his octo inflater or be a rescue diver.

rawalker
03-31-2008, 16:33
As long as you have practiced using your integrated octo/inflator, I see no problem with using one in a recreational situation. I still would not choose one for my use, even in those same situations, but if you're comfortable with it and have practiced (and continue to periodically practice) using it, I would not argue with your choice to use one.

Thank you!
I think you've hit the keys:
Comfortable
Practiced
Choice in a recreational situation.
I'm not saying it for everyone just a good viable choice under those conditions and one that can and should be considered.

ReefHound
03-31-2008, 16:41
I think you've hit the keys:
Comfortable
Practiced
Choice in a recreational situation.

But you haven't practiced, not in the manner you would actually use it if needed. You said you had breathed off it on a safety stop, on your own.

rawalker
03-31-2008, 17:37
Reefhound: You seem to be experience and knowledgeable. What you are lacking is tact and patience and the understanding that others may have viewpoint from prospectives that don't match yours. Their abilities and thresholds are different from yours. If and how they react to conditions of stress vary. How they handle others that may or may not be stressed varies greatly. In most cases a OOA diver who is given air by a buddy will calm down after realizing they now have air. If the supplying buddy stays calm the situation is nothing more than an annoyance and inconvienience. The worst case is both divers to be stressing (and there really isn't a good reason for it)

I've discussed the logic and reasons clearly. You may note that I never said you shouldn't use an octo inflator, I merely stated the concerns and challenged you to address them. And I meant in the water, not in a chair.

What I don't have the patience for is someone with less than 20 dives with such supreme confidence that they understand all the gear configurations and diving situations and know what works best for them. Frankly, there hasn't been time enough for anything to work or not work best for you.

Yet this baseless confidence pales in comparison to talking about what an OOA diver does in most cases or how you or anyone else would react to stress, especially when you haven't even had rescue training where you will find even the adrenaline of a practice scenario has it's effects. I can only laugh though, knowing in 100 dives you will look back and understand.

I'm reminded of this line I once saw - "at 40 dives I was amazed at how much I knew, at 100 dives I was amazed at how much I didn't know".

(I'm sorry if I hurt your feelers because I don't put your armchair expertise on even par with my firsthand experience.)

Oh I'm sorry your firsthand experience is just so humbling.
With your disposition to dismiss the opinion of others that use different equipment I'm surprised your not using a garden hose as a breathing apparatus.
Hmm wonder how many of the engineers that designed integrated inflator/octos are divers.
I'm sure none of them saw a problem before designing an alternative.
And as we all know products that suck are the ones that survive and tend to become more expensive.
And every company that sells products copies the worse of their competitions offerings.
The smarter people don't have to learn from there own mistakes they can learn from others.
Funny others read that I practiced using my gear and I bet they even got the sense that I know both it's requirements and my own abilities.
Still others may have read and noticed that within the constraints of recreational diving it may be a good choice and may be one that they would find useful.
I don't claim to know all the different design configurations. What I have researched are those products that are applicable to me as a recreational diver. Having accomplished Peak Performance Buoyancy and Project AWARE specialties and knowing my abilities my choice suits my needs well and may suit others with similar requirements.
I don't like extra hoses and they are not needed for my dives. They present an extra opportunity to disrupt the environment if you get too close or if an octo comes free from a holder. (Topic) The same also presents an increased risk of becoming caught on something. And lastly may have a small effect on streamlining.
Want to dispute those facts? Even with 20 dives the facts remain the same.
The bottom line is you didn't go as far as to say I shouldn't use an integrated octo/inflator (You implied by your remarks that no one should) I easily replied with answers to show not only can it be used but if understood and practiced like any other octo it can be handled well in an emergency. You and I both know well that if you don't react with the proper trained/learned/practiced response underwater it can be life threatening. Loose your cool you can loose your life!
Baseless confidence no not at all. I know my limits. I've tested my abilities many times not just diving but during other pursuits during my life. I gauge my abilities and work within them and expand them at a safe rate with the assistance of those who have the needed knowledge to share.
I may not have the numbers in that you have but I have discussed the topic with others with far more experience. Divers that understand multiple aspects of diving. I know my post was too long you missed that part and just read about your own shortcommings.
Again you don't have to dive with me but guess what with all your experience and knowledge you'd still be the last person I'd pick to dive with!

rawalker
03-31-2008, 17:56
I think you've hit the keys:
Comfortable
Practiced
Choice in a recreational situation.

But you haven't practiced, not in the manner you would actually use it if needed. You said you had breathed off it on a safety stop, on your own.
First off is this thread about my diving? Your off topic!
Second you have trouble reading? Try my reply to [email protected]
Finally if all you want to do is be a condecending _$$hole pick someone else to play with I've made my point and I'm done with you!

DarinMartell
03-31-2008, 17:57
:smilie40:

UCFKnightDiver
03-31-2008, 18:04
rawalker I would suggest you take a rescue class...though I havent had one I think you might find that how people react in an emergency is probably anything but common or expected I think that is what reef hound is trying to get at and that the octo/inflator isnt the best way to go....having that few of dives I would guess that you havent had an emergency before I know I havent so I cant say how I or a buddy would react. For the record I am not a fan of the octo/inflator setup and think it may create problems and stresses that dont need to be there if you are in an emergency regardless of how much you practice with it..... that being said take what I say obviously with a grain of salt because I dont have too much expirience yet either

MSilvia
03-31-2008, 18:21
Oh I'm sorry your firsthand experience is just so humbling. I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you discount the value of others' experience in this sport. Reefhound knows a thing or two about what he's talking about, and even if you take his tone with a grain of salt, you'd do well to consider his points. I don't believe he's saying any of this in order to make himself sound or feel superior.

The smarter people don't have to learn from there own mistakes they can learn from others.
As you pointed out, you might learn a thing or two from him.


Hmm wonder how many of the engineers that designed integrated inflator/octos are divers.
I wonder how many of the 20 worst pieces of dive gear ever produced (whatever they are) were designed by engineers who were also divers. I'd bet almost all of them were.


And as we all know products that suck are the ones that survive and tend to become more expensive. And every company that sells products copies the worse of their competitions offerings.
The products that generate the most profit are the ones that survive and get copied. Top quality gear is often considered a niche market that most divers don't need, and therefore doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with it. A product's existance, or indeed popularity, is not always an indication of it's merit.

Speaking of generating profit, when asking instructors what gear they use, also ask them if the shop they work for requires that they use what the shop sells, in order to get students to think that's what their role models dive with.


Funny others read that I practiced using my gear and I bet they even got the sense that I know both it's requirements and my own abilities.


To each his own but try doing a dive - or at least a full ascent from depth with safety stop - breathing solely from the octo inflator.
I wouldn't be doing a dive on an octo. I've practiced a safety stop on my own using the inflator. I know a safety stop with a buddy on my primary second stage would be a PIA but this is only for an emergency.
No offense, but that gave me the same impression ReefHound got... it sounded like you've tried breathing off of it during a stop, but that you haven't tried practicing an ascent while sharing air with it. Since that's what it's there for, and since that's widely regarded to be tricky, it's probably important to practice. I tried to stay out of the argument, but I'll admit it raised some mental "red flags" for me.


(Extra hoses) present an extra opportunity to disrupt the environment if you get too close or if an octo comes free from a holder. The same also presents an increased risk of becoming caught on something. And lastly may have a small effect on streamlining.
Want to dispute those facts?
Sure, I'll dispute it.
"Extra" hoses can be routed in a way that's quite streamlined, and which minimizes entanglement hazards. It's not number of hoses that matter, but how you configure them. Hoses don't pose an inherent risk to the environment. Unsecured regs, consoles, and other gear does. It isn't unusual for some advanced divers to have configurations with 7 or more hoses when doing cave or wreck penetrations, and I can assure you that that would not be a preferred setup if those hoses posed a significant risk of getting caught on or hitting things.


Baseless confidence no not at all. I know my limits. I've tested my abilities many times not just diving but during other pursuits during my life. I gauge my abilities and work within them and expand them at a safe rate with the assistance of those who have the needed knowledge to share.
It's great you're confidant, but there's still a grain of truth to thinking that at 20 dives, you almost certainly have no idea what you don't know yet. I think all ReefHound is saying is that you should back that confidance up with rehearsal. If you do already practice ascents while air sharing, that's a great sign that you're progressing in as safe a way as possible. If not, you might consider giving it a try to see if it goes as smoothly as you believe it will.


Again you don't have to dive with me but guess what with all your experience and knowledge you'd still be the last person I'd pick to dive with!
I'd still dive with either one of you, but if it wouldn't be an imposition, I'd like to end the dive with an OOA drill. :)

Splitlip
03-31-2008, 18:38
S drills are important no water what secondary one uses.

Having said that, I prefer an octo inflator over a traditional octo. I use a necklace, but just installed an SS1 on my daughter's BCD. we ocean dive, no overheads.

I know of at least one diver who took an OOA diver up using his integrated octo/inflator.

Sorry for the hijack.

rawalker
03-31-2008, 18:50
[I'd still dive with either one of you, but if it wouldn't be an imposition, I'd like to end the dive with an OOA drill. :)
Matt it would be a pleasure to dive with you and a OOA drill wouldn't be an imposition at all.

MSilvia
04-01-2008, 07:42
Well, if you ever find yourself in Boston, look me up. I don't guess I'll be in Arizona with my gear any time soon. :)

scubamarc
04-01-2008, 13:35
I had a scum ball that was a pain with my oversized mouthpiece (no comment on my mouthpiece) I picked up a magnet clip at a dive show a few months ago. So far, after 20 dives, it works great and has never come loose (VERY strong magnet).

I worried about corrosion (magnets do that), but it still looks fine, as it's coated. I keep it away from my compass.

would this interfere wit the internals of the reg?

marchand
04-01-2008, 14:36
I doubt it. The magnet would have to be to strong for its own good.

marchand
04-01-2008, 15:18
I really don't see how an octo/inflater makes a rig more streamlined. First off you are sticking a large piece of plastic on the end of the hose and then you have to make the hose way to long so that you can use it. It also seems that it would require to much fumbling to get your fingers on the buttons.

rawalker
If you want to think about it logically then look at it this way. There must be a really really good reason why the divers who take the really big risks won't trust their lives to an octo/inflater. That is that it takes away redundancy. Have you thought about what would happen if you had a runaway inflater and then your buddy went OOA and all you had for an octo was your octo/inflater? Normally one would disconnect the inflator, donate his primary and switch to his octo and then he wouldn't have to do anything differently given a direct ascent, but with the octo/inflater he would still have to disconnect inflater and then he and his buddy would have to share the only functional second stage. IMHO that is a recipe for disaster especially when you factor in narcosis. You might want to consider incorporating the KISS principle into your diving. The more you have to do differently in an emergency situation the less your chances are of surviving.

rawalker
04-02-2008, 02:11
I really don't see how an octo/inflater makes a rig more streamlined. First off you are sticking a large piece of plastic on the end of the hose and then you have to make the hose way to long so that you can use it. It also seems that it would require to much fumbling to get your fingers on the buttons.

rawalker
If you want to think about it logically then look at it this way. There must be a really really good reason why the divers who take the really big risks won't trust their lives to an octo/inflater. That is that it takes away redundancy. Have you thought about what would happen if you had a runaway inflater and then your buddy went OOA and all you had for an octo was your octo/inflater? Normally one would disconnect the inflator, donate his primary and switch to his octo and then he wouldn't have to do anything differently given a direct ascent, but with the octo/inflater he would still have to disconnect inflater and then he and his buddy would have to share the only functional second stage. IMHO that is a recipe for disaster especially when you factor in narcosis. You might want to consider incorporating the KISS principle into your diving. The more you have to do differently in an emergency situation the less your chances are of surviving.

It simply is more streamlined than another full sized second stage.
It isn't significantly longer than a standard inflator.
The layout of some of the inflator/octos is very good and once you are familiar with it there isn't any extra fumbling.
If you read my posts you should have read that this rig is limited to regular recreational diving. No-deco and that limits the narcosis risks. But again you have to be the best judge of your own limits for narcosis.
Diving with this equipment regularly means you are using it and not doing things differently. You are still using the same button to add air to your BC you still use the same dump valves on your BC. This isn't a rental rig. It's a personal rig and is something the diver should be familiar with. As for adding in a second equipment failure to a scenario at the same time. Why don't we just say that your buddy is OOA and your standard octo freeflows at the same time? I can disconnect my LP line as with any other BC and then start buddy breathing. I still have air in my tank so my buddy and I safely accend. Your freeflow octo on the other hand is about to empty your tank. Who is in better shape?
But thanks for thinking about it!

MSilvia
04-02-2008, 11:12
Who is in better shape?
Well... I guess that depends on how comfortable you are resolving a freeflow underwater. It wouldn't be a big deal for me, especially in doubles, but even with a single tank it isn't terribly hard to address. I'll grant that having to share air while addressing it would be a challenge though. Out of curiosity, what would you do if your integrated octo freeflows? Disconnect the inflator? If so, doesn't that mean you're increasing the odds of inflator failure by diving cold water with an integrated octo?

Just to play devil's advocate, consider this scenario: a lp inflator o-ring failure. If it happens to a diver with an independant backup 2nd stage, his ability to share air isn't compromized if he disconnects the inflator. He can still share air and dump air as normal, and could arguably continue the dive if he's already at max depth. It happend to me last season, and wasn't a big deal. Not so for a diver with an inflator-integrated second stage. He loses his backup 2nd when he disables his power inflator, and should really abort the dive under those circumstances.

Naturally, you can still buddy breathe a single second stage, but it's something to think about.

I guess I'd recommend being extra mindful of the condition of your inflator o-rings if you dive with an integrated octo.

I'd also take care to open and dry the internal components of the inflator and integrated octo before diving cold water, and be careful not to use the power inflator or octo before submerging them under those circumstances. The same, of course, is a good idea with any 2nd stage regs used in near-freezing conditions.

ReefHound
04-02-2008, 11:44
Why don't we just say that your buddy is OOA and your standard octo freeflows at the same time? I can disconnect my LP line as with any other BC and then start buddy breathing. I still have air in my tank so my buddy and I safely accend. Your freeflow octo on the other hand is about to empty your tank. Who is in better shape?
But thanks for thinking about it!

Even better than thinking about it, is practicing it. Have you actually practiced buddy breathing while ascending from depth? It isn't as easy as it sounds especially under stress. It's why PADI places it behind a CESA as an OOA option.

My initial response to your octo inflator suggestion was about have you fully practiced with it as you would need it? It's not that I missed your post saying that you did, it's that I took you at face value when you told me you had breathed off it at a safety stop while on your own and gave reasons why you didn't need to do more like because emergencies are rare and you aren't looking to be a rescuer and don't plan to dive on it and such.

I have different opinions on what is streamlined and what is cumbersome but that's really not important. My primary concern is about safety. Thinking about it, reading about it, talking about it... that's all good but is not a substitute for practicing it.

marchand
04-02-2008, 12:41
Well, since I only dive doubles I would just shut down the post with the free flowing reg and then start breathing off the power inflater; no big deal. Or, if for some reason I am diving a single tank I would have either a H valve or a 40cf pony that I could always switch to so for me it wouldn't be a problem at all.

In my opinion you should always have two first stages with a second stage on each.

rawalker
04-02-2008, 13:45
Ladies, Gentlemen and Reefhound,
This thread is about securing a Octo!
Someone realized that even experience divers have them come loose and create a hazzard to the diver and the environment.
I suggested an alternative that eliminates that problem.
This thread is not about my diving experience or skill.
I am practiced and comfortable with my choice!
Since you all seem to like scenarios take the following:
A highly experienced well trained diver with a few thousand logged dives decides to for reef diving using singles he wants a BC w/ integrated Octo/inflator.
He becomes accustomed to the gear, he trains with it and when he uses it advises his buddy about it before diving.
Does it answer the question the thread asks?
Then if you want to discuss it's unique aspects feel free within context and consider this would be a diver that knows at least as much as you!
This thread isn't about doubles or your personal preferrence.

MSilvia
04-02-2008, 14:05
This thread is about securing a Octo!
This thread isn't about doubles or your personal preferrence.
I think everyone participating in the conversation as it meandered away from the original topic had already responded to the original poster's question with their thoughts, and I wasn't seeing anything new on that matter being offered.

For what it's worth, an integrated octo inflator isn't very helpful as a means of securing an independant backup second stage. It may indeed be an alternative, but your personal preference isn't necessarily any more on topic than those of the folks suggesting your proposed alternative might have shortcomings.

Don't be mad about people responding to your question about who would be better off... after all, you did ask. That said, I don't see anyone questioning your experience or skill... other than to ask if you have in fact practiced an air sharing ascent with the integrated inflator.

CompuDude
04-02-2008, 17:59
This thread isn't about doubles or your personal preferrence.

It may not be about doubles, but a thread asking for opinions on "the best method" is CERTAINLY asking for opinions.

cummings66
04-02-2008, 20:04
I've been waiting and watching, debating whether to say anything or not.

I think I'll make a comment about rawalkers thoughts.

First, I have used the "contraption" he's talking about and used it in an air sharing circumstance from 30 feet with another diver. Let me say it was not fun, quite far from it in fact. So far that I vowed I'd never repeat that experience again. That was very early in my diving history. I didn't lose control or anything like that, but it was potentially possible.

I have NEVER brought up another divers experience level before but feel compelled to now. I'll be as nice about it as I can. At 20 dives, with the specialities you have, they mean almost nothing when it comes to the real world of emergencies under water. If you think it does you are very much mistaken. I'll point out that you're at the stage where you've been taught the right way to share air, the right way to dive. What you were taught for the most part is the right way to do it. If you think a panicked OOA diver is going to do it the right way you are sadly going to find out the hard way that it will NOT occur the right way. I hope it doesn't kill you when you learn that divers do stupid things.

The very first air REAL share I did was an eye opener for me. In class you're shown where to grab the other guys BC, excuse me, person, how to hand them the octo and basically how to take control of the situation and ascend. With that in mind when it came to my first air share we were horizontal not vertical like we were in class. No big deal. So, I get the reg ready for him and before I could finish the well PRACTICED maneuver of sharing air he took it and DRUG me up. I could not reach his dump valves, I could not reach his BC. I couldn't grab a dang thing because of how he took off and my position at the time. I was along for the ride and the only thing I could do at that point was slow him down. He took me from 1600 psi of air to 800 psi in a minute, on an AL80. He took me to the surface at about 50 fpm, that's all I could slow him to, with no safety stop. We blew through it like yesterdays news. He didn't think at all, it was only I've got to surface, no rational thoughts.

You seem to think your training makes you safe, your gear choices make you safer. The problem is that it does not. EXPERIENCE and proper training is what allows you to handle things like what I just mentioned. I was like you and didn't have at that time the experience to deal with it. I would do it much different today and have the training to back it up now. Rescue is a course you need to take now rather than later. Stop wasting money on specialities, take a real course like rescue. It's that important, more so IMO for a new diver. I waiting until I had somewhere around 140 or so dives, big mistake. The course teaches you things that an OW diver should know, only I didn't realize that because I thought it was something a diver should take when they have more experience. I was WRONG, I should have taken it a hundred dives earlier. I'll tell you from my experience you need to take it too, and soon. As soon as you can control your buoyancy and can handle more than one thing at a time take the course, that means you're probably at the cusp.

You might have OW training, but you lack the experience needed to see things the way they are. It's natural for a newer diver like yourself to think they're king of the hill and know it all, but trust me, you do not. As another poster said, when you look back you'll see how much you didn't know.

Nobody is saying the gizmo you love so much is not useful, just that there are better ways to do it and if you actually have a REAL and not staged event with it you're going to discover it's not so fun too. I'll ask you this question, similar to another I asked. If there's a better way to do it why not? Why won't you MAXIMIZE your odds for survival? What is wrong with making the odds favor you? That's all that's being said, make the odds better.

Maybe, just maybe the guys here who've taken time to say think about it know something you don't know, maybe you should listen to them?

There is more to diving than book knowledge. I'm hoping I pass my next set of courses, knowledge should be easy, but the skills...

cummings66
04-02-2008, 20:19
Lest somebody beat me to it, I know I have lots left to learn and experience. I will never lay claim to being good, only adequate. If somebody says I need to think things through, well, I will. I'll think about it if you say I should, I'm open to new thoughts.

Splitlip
04-02-2008, 20:28
S drills are important no water what secondary one uses.

Having said that, I prefer an octo inflator over a traditional octo. I use a necklace, but just installed an SS1 on my daughter's BCD. we ocean dive, no overheads.

I know of at least one diver who took an OOA diver up using his integrated octo/inflator.

bkp
04-03-2008, 01:22
No need to secure an octo-inflator (on topic). Standard octo, I like the snorkel keeper (also on topic).

Off-topic: I used an SS1 integrated for years, and it was trouble free. Had it serviced religiously, and never had a button stick, a free flow, or a snag. And, it breathed almost as well as my B2 primary at 120ft. Practiced S-drills, until it was 2nd nature...

That being said, I've since switched to a standard octo. Rescue class convinced me of that...

Hopefully, without reiterating what others have already said, real world can be remarkably different than practice... Multi-tasking, in a panic situation, seems to be the operative word. I found there seemed to be two unavoidable factors involved in an OOA, when using an integrated octo: 1- your head movement is restrained (just when you need the flexibility) due to the limited corrugated hose length; 2- You're adjusting buoyancy not just for yourself, but for your possibly panicked OOA diver (the assumption being he has no air to adjust it himself). If you've ever shot a lift bag, or deployed an SMB, while doing an ascent, you understand what the difference feels like. It's difficult enough with a free inflator... significantly more with the inflator stuck in your mouth. Even more so with a diver tethered to you, possibly trying to claw his/her way to the surface, while gaining buoyancy with every foot up the water column... I found out standard S-drills are great -- in controlled scenarios where your partner is cooperating fully.

The integrated was great. Convenient, simple, streamlined, reliable. I also don't think the majority of us will ever have to share air in a panicked situation. However, if it *does* happen, my only issue was/is deployment in a real OOA. I certainly can't say for sure, but I'll hazard a guess that most of us don't practice S-drills with our buddy flailing like a PCP freak, and trying to climb over our heads...

I've tried it... the integrated makes a tough situation tougher...
However, my wife still has it one her Zena, and since I'm her buddy, and have practiced with her... extensively... I'm hoping it'd be a smoother ride in an emergency...

rawalker
04-03-2008, 02:40
No need to secure an octo-inflator (on topic). Standard octo, I like the snorkel keeper (also on topic).

Off-topic: I used an SS1 integrated for years, and it was trouble free. Had it serviced religiously, and never had a button stick, a free flow, or a snag. And, it breathed almost as well as my B2 primary at 120ft. Practiced S-drills, until it was 2nd nature...

That being said, I've since switched to a standard octo. Rescue class convinced me of that...

Hopefully, without reiterating what others have already said, real world can be remarkably different than practice... Multi-tasking, in a panic situation, seems to be the operative word. I found there seemed to be two unavoidable factors involved in an OOA, when using an integrated octo: 1- your head movement is restrained (just when you need the flexibility) due to the limited corrugated hose length; 2- You're adjusting buoyancy not just for yourself, but for your possibly panicked OOA diver (the assumption being he has no air to adjust it himself). If you've ever shot a lift bag, or deployed an SMB, while doing an ascent, you understand what the difference feels like. It's difficult enough with a free inflator... significantly more with the inflator stuck in your mouth. Even more so with a diver tethered to you, possibly trying to claw his/her way to the surface, while gaining buoyancy with every foot up the water column... I found out standard S-drills are great -- in controlled scenarios where your partner is cooperating fully.

The integrated was great. Convenient, simple, streamlined, reliable. I also don't think the majority of us will ever have to share air in a panicked situation. However, if it *does* happen, my only issue was/is deployment in a real OOA. I certainly can't say for sure, but I'll hazard a guess that most of us don't practice S-drills with our buddy flailing like a PCP freak, and trying to climb over our heads...

I've tried it... the integrated makes a tough situation tougher...
However, my wife still has it one her Zena, and since I'm her buddy, and have practiced with her... extensively... I'm hoping it'd be a smoother ride in an emergency...

Thank you bkp well stated and understood.
A PCP freak like buddy is going to make the situation worse under the best of conditions and no matter what equipment you decide to dive with.
If a freaked buddy is trying to rocket to the surface, it isn't going to be easy for anyone to deal with.
Even rescue divers know that if all else fails your responsibility is to make sure you are safe regardless of the outcome for your buddy. Even the most experienced diver may get into an emergency situation they can't handle.

Foo2
04-03-2008, 11:29
Hey guys!
I got rid of a few posts that were just turning into sarcasm....although some of them had some really good points. Just try to remember to be respectful of each other even if you have a difference of opinion. Come on.....I wanna see some kissing and making up. :p

thor
04-03-2008, 11:50
Hey guys!
I got rid of a few posts that were just turning into sarcasm....although some of them had some really good points. Just try to remember to be respectful of each other even if you have a difference of opinion. Come on.....I wanna see some kissing and making up. :p



I said "Down in front" Your snorkel keeps getting in the way
:smilie40:

ReefHound
04-03-2008, 11:55
Come on.....I wanna see some kissing and making up. :p

Can we relay all the kissing and making up through you? :smiley2:

Splitlip
04-03-2008, 12:15
raw:
I did try and take a bullet for ya :), but nobody fired as they already know what I'm gonna say.
I'll make my points however:

I went to the SS1, not so much for streamlining as hose management. Almost all of my diving is done from boats. Cramped boats, either private or charter. I get sea sick and the SS1 made gearing up easier.
As I was certified pre-Octo, pre-computer and pre-BC (I am still a pretty hep cat though), I was more comfortable.
Many of the local divers dive Air-2's and such so presumably they are familiar with them. My main buddy does and we drilll enough, that we are comfortable.

I truely believe however, that there are short comings with these devices for all the reasons other posters have made. I dive now with a necklace and my primary on an octo length hose routed under my right arm. I would go for the 7ft but for the hose management thing on boats again.

The reason I have put the SS1 on my daughter's BC is the concern I have with conventional octos. I have seen too many break loose from their retainers. My fear is that someday some clown is going to jump my daughter and pull her primary from her mouth. I want her to know exactly where her secondary is, in or by her left hand.

I have removed her conventional octo, again for the hose management thing and to make it easier for her to set up. But for now, I am her only buddy and presumably can handle any situations which might arise. We have practiced air sharing off a standard length primary, but will shortly put her primary on a hose routed like mine. Don't want to introduce more than one new thing at a time. I want her used to the SS1.

When the time comes for my daughter to fly away from the nest, I hope she will be wearing her alternate on a necklace and the SS1 will go back into my locker.

I went through a period where the only diving I did was less than 25 ft. Never considered it real diving, but I would keep a 72 in a backpack with an old SP Mk 7 on the boat when we hunted in the keys and the Bahamas with snorkel gear. If a fish was hit and he rocked himself, it was my job to put on the gear and go get him out. (had to be careful in the Bahamas as technically it might be considered hunting with SCUBA) I would usually keep the gear on at that point and take photos with my Nikonos II.

My plan is to eventually put the SS1 on an old SP Classic and keep it in the Keys with a couple of aluminum tanks for the scenarios I described.

Just make sure you work with yours, and I would suggest the 40" primary under your arm with a swivel. I recommend the Atomic swivel. You will have to order the hose and make sure you tell them it is NOT for an Atomic second stage.

In addition to the added length, the hose routed under the arm eliminates the hallo of the standard 2nd stage hose. You mentioned somewhere that you like the alternate inflator because it eliminated a hose that can get caught on things. I have gotten my standard 2nd stage hose caught on things.

Sometimes it is difficult when reading this stuff to really figure out the attitude of the poster without looking at him and hearing inflections and such. These are all pretty good folks and just trying to share information. And opinions are ok.

Splitlip
04-03-2008, 12:16
Hey guys!
I got rid of a few posts that were just turning into sarcasm....although some of them had some really good points. Just try to remember to be respectful of each other even if you have a difference of opinion. Come on.....I wanna see some kissing and making up. :p



I said "Down in front" Your snorkel keeps getting in the way
:smilie40:

:smiley36:

Splitlip
04-03-2008, 12:17
Come on.....I wanna see some kissing and making up. :p

Can we relay all the kissing and making up through you? :smiley2:
:smilie39:
Sign me up!

Foo2
04-03-2008, 12:38
What snorkle? :smiley_scuba:

You boys...what am I gonna do with you?:disappointed:

Firefyter
04-03-2008, 12:41
Hey guys!
I got rid of a few posts that were just turning into sarcasm....although some of them had some really good points. :p

So you get rid of the whole post instead of just the sarcasm? Talk about heavy handed moderation. Let's all just sit here and sing kumbaya and feel good instead of trying to learn anything..... Good luck with that, I'm outta here...........

UCFKnightDiver
04-03-2008, 12:46
Hey guys!
I got rid of a few posts that were just turning into sarcasm....although some of them had some really good points. :p

So you get rid of the whole post instead of just the sarcasm? Talk about heavy handed moderation. Let's all just sit here and sing kumbaya and feel good instead of trying to learn anything..... Good luck with that, I'm outta here...........


sarcasm aside I do think firefyters post and had some useful information in it... ie 1st hand knowledge of using a integrated octo inflator....

Foo2
04-03-2008, 12:50
Hey guys!
I got rid of a few posts that were just turning into sarcasm....although some of them had some really good points. :p

So you get rid of the whole post instead of just the sarcasm? Talk about heavy handed moderation. Let's all just sit here and sing kumbaya and feel good instead of trying to learn anything..... Good luck with that, I'm outta here...........


sarcasm aside I do think firefyters post and had some useful information in it... ie 1st hand knowledge of using a integrated octo inflator....

I never said that Firefyter or anyone else for that matter didn't have good info. There was more than one post that was kicked out. I wasn't picking on anyone. I'm not suggesting a kumbaya camp fire sing along. (although it would be fun) All I ask is that you be kind to each other. I'm not gonna sit here and edit each and every individual post that may have some sort of sarcasm in them.

*Added info* I honestly wasn't trying to offend anyone by doing what I did. We had a complaint that the thread was getting out of control so I tried to nip it in the bud. My apologies to all that were offended.

rawalker
04-03-2008, 12:54
Hey guys!
I got rid of a few posts that were just turning into sarcasm....although some of them had some really good points. :p

So you get rid of the whole post instead of just the sarcasm? Talk about heavy handed moderation. Let's all just sit here and sing kumbaya and feel good instead of trying to learn anything..... Good luck with that, I'm outta here...........


sarcasm aside I do think firefyters post and had some useful information in it... ie 1st hand knowledge of using a integrated octo inflator....
Then again my reply to him had some excellent points also including the sarcasm!

UCFKnightDiver
04-03-2008, 12:59
Sorry to complain Foo2 you do a great job at admining and are as unbiased a person that I know. I am sure it is a burden to do so but Keep up the great work.

Ryan

ReefHound
04-03-2008, 14:14
One is always free to repost any of the non-personal content, right?

cummings66
04-03-2008, 16:35
I would think so, but to be honest I think we've beat the horse to death. I'll just say secure the octo with a snorkel keeper and that's that.

terrillja
04-03-2008, 17:19
Just got the new Oceanic SWIV Octo a few days ago, great design by oceanic. The magnet is STRONG, no way it's popping off on a giant stride entry. I tested it around my compass, and the magnet has no appreciable effect outside of 6-8", so compass nav should be fine with it attached to your bc.

Also to Larry and Joe, I was fine with paying for the octo body upgrade, but replacing the whole octo? Way to go above and beyond.

So if you are looking to purchase an octo, or upgrade the swivel180 octo, check out the SWIV octo.

buddhasummer
04-28-2008, 00:38
Oh I'm sorry your firsthand experience is just so humbling. I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you discount the value of others' experience in this sport. Reefhound knows a thing or two about what he's talking about, and even if you take his tone with a grain of salt, you'd do well to consider his points. I don't believe he's saying any of this in order to make himself sound or feel superior.

The smarter people don't have to learn from there own mistakes they can learn from others.
As you pointed out, you might learn a thing or two from him.


Hmm wonder how many of the engineers that designed integrated inflator/octos are divers.
I wonder how many of the 20 worst pieces of dive gear ever produced (whatever they are) were designed by engineers who were also divers. I'd bet almost all of them were.


And as we all know products that suck are the ones that survive and tend to become more expensive. And every company that sells products copies the worse of their competitions offerings.
The products that generate the most profit are the ones that survive and get copied. Top quality gear is often considered a niche market that most divers don't need, and therefore doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with it. A product's existance, or indeed popularity, is not always an indication of it's merit.

Speaking of generating profit, when asking instructors what gear they use, also ask them if the shop they work for requires that they use what the shop sells, in order to get students to think that's what their role models dive with.


Funny others read that I practiced using my gear and I bet they even got the sense that I know both it's requirements and my own abilities.


To each his own but try doing a dive - or at least a full ascent from depth with safety stop - breathing solely from the octo inflator.
I wouldn't be doing a dive on an octo. I've practiced a safety stop on my own using the inflator. I know a safety stop with a buddy on my primary second stage would be a PIA but this is only for an emergency.
No offense, but that gave me the same impression ReefHound got... it sounded like you've tried breathing off of it during a stop, but that you haven't tried practicing an ascent while sharing air with it. Since that's what it's there for, and since that's widely regarded to be tricky, it's probably important to practice. I tried to stay out of the argument, but I'll admit it raised some mental "red flags" for me.


(Extra hoses) present an extra opportunity to disrupt the environment if you get too close or if an octo comes free from a holder. The same also presents an increased risk of becoming caught on something. And lastly may have a small effect on streamlining.
Want to dispute those facts?
Sure, I'll dispute it.
"Extra" hoses can be routed in a way that's quite streamlined, and which minimizes entanglement hazards. It's not number of hoses that matter, but how you configure them. Hoses don't pose an inherent risk to the environment. Unsecured regs, consoles, and other gear does. It isn't unusual for some advanced divers to have configurations with 7 or more hoses when doing cave or wreck penetrations, and I can assure you that that would not be a preferred setup if those hoses posed a significant risk of getting caught on or hitting things.


Baseless confidence no not at all. I know my limits. I've tested my abilities many times not just diving but during other pursuits during my life. I gauge my abilities and work within them and expand them at a safe rate with the assistance of those who have the needed knowledge to share.
It's great you're confidant, but there's still a grain of truth to thinking that at 20 dives, you almost certainly have no idea what you don't know yet. I think all ReefHound is saying is that you should back that confidance up with rehearsal. If you do already practice ascents while air sharing, that's a great sign that you're progressing in as safe a way as possible. If not, you might consider giving it a try to see if it goes as smoothly as you believe it will.


Again you don't have to dive with me but guess what with all your experience and knowledge you'd still be the last person I'd pick to dive with!
I'd still dive with either one of you, but if it wouldn't be an imposition, I'd like to end the dive with an OOA drill. :)

I think all Good points, nice reply:smiley20: