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rayaa3
01-26-2011, 12:20
Hey - got a question for any Padi instructors out there.

Took my daughter to her Open water pool portion last night (half done, one more night at the pool, then the more fun stuff).

I advised her before class, for the the swim, choose the longer distance with mask/snorkel/fin - much easier.

Instructor didn't give them an option - 200meters continuous freestyle.

Did this option change in the last year?

Also - they made her take off her wetsuit for her float...ok, ok...that might have been cheating...she's 12, and all skin and bones, so she really had to work to float...I was hoping she would get to use her wetsuit, but guess they saw that as an aid.

No big deal - she did both, a little tired after treading water for 10 minutes - but hey, she's young. ;)

Anyone know about the Mask/fins/snorkel option disappearing?

I think it's funny - this is the same shop that doesn't teach tables anymore. OK, tables aren't important to safety, but sans mask fins snorkel for your swim test.

incidentally - my little girl knows how to use the tables...and a computer, I made sure.

Just like she knows how to use a calculator, and can also add, subtract, multiply, and divide ;)

Straegen
01-26-2011, 12:47
If it has changed, they need to update their own page:

Scuba Certification F.A.Q (http://www.padi.com/scuba/scuba-diving-guide/start-scuba-diving/scuba-certification-faq/default.aspx)


swim 200 metres/yards (or 300 metres/yards in mask, fins and snorkel). There is no time limit for this, and you may use any swimming strokes you want.

I was watching a class recently and they were doing some basic free diver skills which I do not remember having to do.

Grizbear98
01-26-2011, 13:02
I checked out my instructor manual, it's a 200 m swim or the 300m mask fin snorkel, but it's really going to be instructor preference there. In the classes I've interned and DMed with usually they just have you do the swim since it's easier to have everyone do the same thing. They do also make you take off wetsuits for any swim tests since they can be considered a float aid, I do feel for your daughter though I'm a sinker as well and it can be difficult to stay up sometimes. A hint for her though if she has to do a float test again like if she decides one day to go on to DM, tell her to lay on her back it's easier than treading water and still counts as floating and makes the no hands part of the DM test much much easier too.

The skindiving part is a diveflexable skill that's thrown in there to give a bit of introduction to the snorkeling/skindiving stuff. You can optionally do a skin diving part in the openwater portion.

Do they just have her doing the PADI computer book? I know you pretty much have 3 options for teaching: the tables, the PADI eRDMPL (both are my personal preference to use the tables first then check them with the eRDMPL since computers can fail), and since computers are becoming more popular they also have a book on computers that comes with the manual in lieu of tables. PADI has a lot of standards that every class has to go by, but there are certain things that are up to the instructor like the swim option or the method of tables. I'm glad that you taught her tables, I just think they are important to know even if you are using a computer not to bash any other instructors methods though.

rayaa3
01-26-2011, 14:14
yes, they give you an extra book for computers, and a fairly neat online bit - to help you understand the relationship the computer has on multilevel diving.

I believe there was a held breath mask/fin skin dive in my ow class. I was given the impression while it's not required, it's nice to find out what your personal limitations are for swimming distance with a single held breath. I think I did a single complete lab, so that's what, 50 meters? Of course that's 50 meters in a nice calm lap pool - not much relationship to the ocean :)

She didnt' have to do that.

thanks for the info - I'm glad to know she can do it if she has to...but I did think it was odd that there wasn't an option.

Ray

Straegen
01-26-2011, 15:04
Always wondered why it was 300m with fins... seems like it should be 400m. 300m with fins is WAY easier at least for me than 200m no fins. Even better might be to do 300m in gear on the surface.

bigman241
01-26-2011, 15:05
honestly, and I do not agree with this, nor would I ever choose it over the swim test. It needs to be done and I would require one or the other.

WE NEVER DID OUR SWIM TEST, I asked when we would do it. In the pool session I asked how many laps it was or would we do it in the ocean. He said and I quate " I feel the swim test is alittle redundant, anyone can float in water in a wetsuit" Ok being a big guy I was not going to push swimming 200-300meter swim. I knew I could do it, even at my weight, heck as a kid I swam a cross a good size(indiana size) lake. Had I not known I could do it I would have asked to.

I had asked here, with concerns about doing it. Given my weight I float, and could have done the the treading water part a sleep.

If I was an instructor, "might be one day, I would give the option to choice". I think the taking the wetsuit off can be explained, better she be able to tread without it, should she be in florida without a wetsuit.

Straegen
01-26-2011, 15:16
If my instructor said that, I would go somewhere else. Having a minimum ability to swim is not mitigated by a wetsuit. PADI is already a bare minimum cert so cutting items from it is a bad idea to me.

Tom H
01-26-2011, 17:06
Always wondered why it was 300m with fins... seems like it should be 400m. 300m with fins is WAY easier at least for me than 200m no fins. Even better might be to do 300m in gear on the surface.

Agree with all of that. Also that regardless of one's opinion on whether the 200 meter without fins (who cares about mask & snorkel?) should be a requirement and not an option: If PADI says the student has the option of swimming OR mask/fins/snorkel, I feel the student should have the OPTION of either. OR, PADI should change the rules. I've read so much about this on various forums, and it seems there is only one option--whichever one the instructor decides to offer! In one case, I heard that the class took a VOTE on which to do, and ALL had to do that one. Instructors: if PADI's rules remain as they are, the option should be given to each student individually--of course, that takes more pool time.....

Interesting note: For my OW class we only did the 300 mask/fins/snorkel, not the 200. For PADI DM course, I could barely make 200 of the required TIMED 400 yds./meters swim without hocking up a lung. This was because though I was on the HS swim team 40 years ago, I hadn't swam a stroke since. No interest in swimming. SO, my swim technique had gone to pot. After training, I got a "3" on the 400 and passed the DM stamina tests. Due to distance to pool and gas costs, don't ask me to do the 400 today. The required 800 with masks/fins/snorkel, sure-- no technique required there--just strong legs and a good snorkel. On the other hand, I have always considered myself one of the most comfortable people in the water that I know. How important is the 200 swim? Food for thought.

scubadiver888
01-26-2011, 17:13
Hey - got a question for any Padi instructors out there.

Took my daughter to her Open water pool portion last night (half done, one more night at the pool, then the more fun stuff).

I advised her before class, for the the swim, choose the longer distance with mask/snorkel/fin - much easier.

Instructor didn't give them an option - 200meters continuous freestyle.

Did this option change in the last year?

The PADI Instructor manual states:


At some point before certification, have students complete a 200 metre/yard continuous surface swim or a 300 metre/yard swim with mask, fins and snorkel.

It doesn't really say whether the student or the instructor gets to decide which test. It is entirely possible that the instructor felt it was his choice.


Also - they made her take off her wetsuit for her float...ok, ok...that might have been cheating...she's 12, and all skin and bones, so she really had to work to float...I was hoping she would get to use her wetsuit, but guess they saw that as an aid.

Normally the swim test must be done without a wetsuit but there is an option to allow wetsuit if the student is weighted for neutral buoyancy. So if the wetsuit made her float, she'd have to wear a weight belt with enough weights to be neutral. I suspect the instructor just couldn't be bothered determine how much weight was needed to compensate for the wetsuit.


honestly, and I do not agree with this, nor would I ever choose it over the swim test. It needs to be done and I would require one or the other.

WE NEVER DID OUR SWIM TEST, I asked when we would do it. In the pool session I asked how many laps it was or would we do it in the ocean. He said and I quate " I feel the swim test is alittle redundant, anyone can float in water in a wetsuit" Ok being a big guy I was not going to push swimming 200-300meter swim. I knew I could do it, even at my weight, heck as a kid I swam a cross a good size(indiana size) lake. Had I not known I could do it I would have asked to.

I had asked here, with concerns about doing it. Given my weight I float, and could have done the the treading water part a sleep.

If I was an instructor, "might be one day, I would give the option to choice". I think the taking the wetsuit off can be explained, better she be able to tread without it, should she be in florida without a wetsuit.

This makes me wonder what other things your instructor decided was redundant.

TwistedSister209
01-26-2011, 17:27
Agree with SD888 & the rest with no swim, Big!
In one of my classes, a student couldn't swim 100 m--he was not allowed to do the check-out dives. He was a danger to himself, the other students and to the DMs.
I really respected my instructor for the way he handled this situation, and a couple more that same semester.

@rayaa--congratulations with your daughter and her OW!
Thanks for raising the questions as I'm always learning!

Grizbear98
01-26-2011, 18:41
Yeaaah the swim test for PADI is definitely not optional as a PADI standard and has to be done in every OW and DM course that isn't good. No instructor is perfect, but I definitely understand why liability insurance costs so dang much! I agree with SD888 I wonder what else is redundant to this guy...

bigman241
01-26-2011, 19:51
I totally agree, had I thought it been a issue for me I would have brought it up. Sure I might have been huffing and buffing but I would have little trouble finishing it.
Agree with SD888 & the rest with no swim, Big!
In one of my classes, a student couldn't swim 100 m--he was not allowed to do the check-out dives. He was a danger to himself, the other students and to the DMs.
I really respected my instructor for the way he handled this situation, and a couple more that same semester.

@rayaa--congratulations with your daughter and her OW!
Thanks for raising the questions as I'm always learning!

bigman241
01-26-2011, 19:58
I do agree, in hinesight if I had it to do over again I would have. I think bare minium is alittle nice, though some of that goes to the padi instructors I have seen. Seems alot of them are all about easy, quick, and give me the money. I saw little true work in our advance class(padi) besides read this this and this, call me in the morning, then we did our classroom, mainly going over the quizzes. The dives were not a joke but close, I learnt from the nav and alittle from the PPB, the deep was really about NN and doing paper rock scissors on the bottom in 45degree water. The wreck was, "ok we are going to go around the 727 look at , do not go in, oh do NOT go in, then we will surface, and you can go down and inside without me if you wish" :smiley5:. One of the guys asked me if I went in on our trip in july, I said yes I did twice, he asked if I would take him inside, :smiley5: not even myself being wreck cert. I was not taking a newly Ow diver doing AOW in a wreck.

Had it not been for the forum, I am almost certain I would have killed my self and or another sometime between OW cert and AOW cert. I understand it being there to teach someone the basics BUT DAM how about the basics plus enough to be safe enough to dive without another class or instructor.

though it all comes down to class and instructor


If my instructor said that, I would go somewhere else. Having a minimum ability to swim is not mitigated by a wetsuit. PADI is already a bare minimum cert so cutting items from it is a bad idea to me.

bigman241
01-26-2011, 20:03
I think the other big one I can think of was the weight check him and the store owner used. I walked in he said ok what kind of bc. I said zeagle ranger with a 3mil. he handed me 50 pounds and said that should start you off.:smiley5:

In the pool session I said I think I am over weighted, the instructor said we will get to that. We NEVER DID, on ow dive one and well 2, he said dump your air and go down togather. That is all ok unless your 15 pounds over weighted if you had an al80 and you have a steel 120. I sank like a rock and landed up side down. I dropped 10 pounds, 3rd dive a wreck dive, I was still heavy, I ended up with 36or38 pounds. Still alittle heavy.
Yeaaah the swim test for PADI is definitely not optional as a PADI standard and has to be done in every OW and DM course that isn't good. No instructor is perfect, but I definitely understand why liability insurance costs so dang much! I agree with SD888 I wonder what else is redundant to this guy...

Straegen
01-26-2011, 21:30
Had it not been for the forum, I am almost certain I would have killed my self and or another sometime between OW cert and AOW cert. I understand it being there to teach someone the basics BUT DAM how about the basics plus enough to be safe enough to dive without another class or instructor.

though it all comes down to class and instructorOur AOW included several fairly "advanced" open water dives but I picked an instructor I knew would make us work for it. IMO, it is up to the student not the instructor to make sure he/she is trained well.

bigman241
01-26-2011, 22:16
I would not disagree with that, I did some research, not much to choice from in southwest indiana. Most people referred me to the shop that sold me the bad alloy tanks, who for other reasons as well I would never go to again. I think part of it was the nav, S&R and PPB dives where larger groups, so we had to get everyone through it. the search and nav I did learn alot from, the deep and wreck I think was more of it is cold lets hurry up. I do not mean we did not learn from it, we did, but I think I knew as much about wreck diving before, mainly asking on here, reading and having done the dive, and discussed my stuiped activity and penetrating it. Plus I knew one day I would be down here wanting to hit the spegial, vanny, and the big O, in that order so I have been reading up on things, funny and saddly corrected the instructor on a thing or two. Someone asked if it was ok to go in, he said not for class but generally you were ok to go into small wrecks as long as you have a buddy. HE also told the other divers the tail was the deeper part, the nose was the deeper end, giving a 15 to 50 feet from tail to nose, I felt they needed to know which end was deeper. Though he did spend alot of time going over everything for the deep dive, and did care to make sure we got the knowledge, I just think the guys in indiana did not fully realize what went into wreck diving, since their in indiana, and when they go on trips to FL, cozumel and such it is normally with OW divers so no wreck or deep diving.
Our AOW included several fairly "advanced" open water dives but I picked an instructor I knew would make us work for it. IMO, it is up to the student not the instructor to make sure he/she is trained well.

Tom H
01-26-2011, 22:56
[QUOTE=scubadiver888;436169]The PADI Instructor manual states:



It doesn't really say whether the student or the instructor gets to decide which test. It is entirely possible that the instructor felt it was his choice.



Thanks for enlightening me. It seems only logical to me that PADI change what the Instructor Manual says so it requires the students to do either the 200 or the 300, or both, or something else entirely. Shouldn't be a situation where some classes do this and others do that. Just IMO.

Grizbear98
01-27-2011, 10:30
I'd be willing to bet part of it could be due to students with physical disabilities that need modified swim exams, for instance you can snorkel with less arm power since it doesn't require arms than you can do a crawl stroke

Tom H
01-27-2011, 12:32
I'd be willing to bet part of it could be due to students with physical disabilities that need modified swim exams, for instance you can snorkel with less arm power since it doesn't require arms than you can do a crawl stroke

Interesting sidelight-- I do believe you are not allowed any use of arms doing the mask/fin/snorkel swim. I was not told this in OW and used arms. When done, my instructor told me I wasn't supposed to. It was so darn easy I asked if she just wanted me to do it again right away without arms and she said nah. Shows you the difference betwween fins and no fins.

bigman241
01-27-2011, 13:29
I would hope allowed or not, a instructor would correct hand use with fins, as we all know our hands do us little good underwater.
Interesting sidelight-- I do believe you are not allowed any use of arms doing the mask/fin/snorkel swim. I was not told this in OW and used arms. When done, my instructor told me I wasn't supposed to. It was so darn easy I asked if she just wanted me to do it again right away without arms and she said nah. Shows you the difference betwween fins and no fins.

tc_rain
01-27-2011, 13:44
The swim test has not changed for O/W. They are as follows from the PADI instructor manual:

Before open water dive 2 have student divers demonstrate that they can comfortable maintain themselves in water too deep in which to stand by completing a 10-minute swim/float without using any swim aids.

At some point before certification, have students complete a 200 meter/yard continuous surface swim or a 300 meter/yard swim with mask, fins and snorkel.

If conditions warrant, students may wear an exposure suit as long as they are weighted for neutral buoyancy.

As far as the swim, we do the 200 meter/yard swim but if someone asked we would do the 300 for them.