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bigman241
03-02-2011, 07:00
Ok I am not real good with math, but I am with the basic 2+2 ant 5.
We went into a local dealer (used car lot) no new cars, he had a f250 diesel:smiley20::smiley20::smiley20:
Asking was 18,500 he offered dad 5000 for his dodge, and I asked how much for my jeep wrangler, he looked it up and said 11k:smiley19::smiley19:, I paid 18 for it a year ago minus the 2k over the price I paid for my trade in I had about 17k in it, plus new wheels and tires 6 months ago.

I opted not to trade it in on the truck and dad got approved and we bought it. I went in to the dodge gm dealer where I bought my truck, jeep, and my dad has bought three cars. They had a used 2011 jk jeep with 3k miles. Asking 26999, which is like the new price, but ok, I asked how much for my trade in, I was figuring 12k since that was their offer on a truck I looked at in dec, but if I can knock a say 2-4k off the new one I would be even with what I paid for it.

HE comes back and said he did you good, we can give you 9500 for your trade in :smiley29::smiley29::smiley29:. He looks at me you want to fill out the credit app, I said no 3 months ago they offered me 12k, he then goes on about how the lot buffed up the retail of the truck to make it seem I got more for my trade then he said were was it, I SAID YOUR LOT:smiley21::smiley21::smiley21:.

Heck the New Camero was the cost of the used 2011 jeep, I told him if you would give me the 12k I would really think about the camero, but I ant giving new price for a used jeep. He said well at 10k for your trade in your coming out ahead 3k with you 7000 pay off, how is having 19k in a jeep trading it for 10k with a pay of of 7k coming out ahead 3000:smiley29::smiley29::smiley29:

I did talk to my bank and thier going to let me refi 3k to do some stuff to my jeep, new winch, bumper, rhino line the inside, new cd/dvd/nav stereo :smiley20::smiley20:

Moral of the story is all dealers lie, **** them all, if they tell you buy this it holds it's value come back in a year with good payments you can trade it in on a new jeep and get nearly what you paid for it, how is 19k purchase price, with a 10000-12000 trade in offer and losing 7k in value holding it's value

Straegen
03-02-2011, 09:13
Always negotiate the price of the car before you even mention you have a trade in. Most of the time the price they come up on the trade in value is the amount they would have come off of the new car to begin with.

I personally do not buy cars new any more and drive them till their wheels fall off. Cars are often huge money pits if you buy into the upgrade every three years or less.

scottv
03-02-2011, 09:47
Totally agree, big money pit. I laugh so hard when I hear people tell me their new car is "a good investment".

TJDiver
03-02-2011, 10:24
Always do your homework before buying, and go to the lot with solid values in hand for your vehicle and the vehicle you're interested in buying. Car dealers/salesmen love nothing better than someone showing up without a clue about the values of the vehicles involved in the deal.

And, I'm with Straegen...I always get vehicles that are 1 - 3 years old with reasonable to low mileage...and, also shoot for one that has some extended drive train warranty left. I also agree with keeping vehicles for a good long time. My wife and I have been together 18 years, and I have only had two trucks in that time...this one makes my third, and I will most likely keep it for 10 - 12 years. Also, go talk deal at the end of the month, or even better, go just before the end of the year. I got a killer deal on my '08 crewcab Silverado by buying it two days before the new year...and, it has a 100k drive train warranty. And, remember the #1 rule...no vehicle is so cool that you can't walk away if they won't hit, or at least get close to, your numbers.

Oh yeah...one last thing...I remember what it was like when I was 25, and I realize I'm probably just talking to a wall right now. I know my father and grandfather couldn't drill this stuff in my head at that age. :smiley36:

TJDiver
03-02-2011, 10:33
Oh...another important tip...never just run out to buy a vehicle...be very deliberate about it. I decided about 1.5 years before buying my latest truck that I would start shopping around. Yep...that's right...I spent 1.5 years shopping around for the truck I have now. No, I didn't go out every weekend and shop, but I did keep my eyes open, and talked deal with someone at least every quarter until I found exactly what I wanted. I never compromised on what I was looking for, and because of exposure to various deals over that time frame, I went into my purchase well informed on going values...both from the book, and real market values.

Bert
03-02-2011, 11:45
Totally agree, big money pit. I laugh so hard when I hear people tell me their new car is "a good investment". My truck(bought new in 03) is a good investment I bought it new ots now paid for has 158,000 and I plan to drive it till the wheels fall off.

Straegen
03-02-2011, 11:58
Good value yes, good investment no. Investments by there definition designed to produce a profit.

Bert
03-02-2011, 13:07
Ture by there definition I am a bad customer as I have no intention of buying a new truck any time soon. so far I am on my second set of break pads/shoes, 3rd st of tires (60,000miles per set) planing on getting a tune up, last one was 80,000 miles ago. the body is solid so I will continue to drive it my goal is at leat another 100000+ be for I look to replace it

FishFood
03-02-2011, 13:26
Right now is about the worst time to by a vehicle,so they did you a favor. Tax return season is always bad for getting a good deal, but with the uncertainty in the middle east and with the possibility of > $4, $5 a gallon in the near future... Id hold off buying anything but a moped. The economy is far from ready to get better, and IMO is about to take a bad down turn. Right now Id invest in bullets, food, and tin foil hats over a car payment.

Zeagle Eagle
03-02-2011, 18:20
You want advice? Listen to TJDiver.

BTW, a dealer told my son while I quietly sat next to him. Okay, how about $367 a month for 36 months, if thats too tough I could do $350 for 60 months.
I won't tell you what my son said.

navyhmc
03-02-2011, 19:10
:smiley9: I can imagine what your son said... :smiley36:

Like TJ, I did a lot of research as well. Find out what the dealer incentives, special incentives, etc are. If you know what the bare bones cost is to the dealer, you can go from there. But be prepared to be A: lied to outright, B: given misleading facts, and C: every underhanded trick in the book thrown at you. At any time, when I'm looking for a new vehicle, I am prepared to walk out of any dealership at a moments notice.

There are a lot of great resources online to give you an better chance with the dealers. And as had been said, don't bring up a trade in up front, that can be used as a leverage of sorts for the bottom line as well.

And for the most part, car dealer math is simple: A Car x A Customer + how much we can weasle out of him = Price.

divingmedic
03-02-2011, 19:24
Last vehicle I bought was my Maxima. But I bought it at the right time. Right when no one could sell a car. Mine was listed out at 39,850. I spent 7 hours dealing to get that car. I did research on the interent for hours at a time. I went to several Nissan dealers. I got my financing ahead of time also. I walked out paying just 30k for that car. I negoiated the price of the car first, then the trade in. When they wanted me to fill out finance papers, I just pulled out my cell phone, made one call and three minutes later paperwork was faxed to dealer showing financing. I even got the dealer to pay for T,T and L. Oh and the car I traded in, had a bad transmission, a door banged in and the a/c went out on the way to the dealer. That said when ever you buy a vehicle it depreciates as soon as you drive it off the lot.

dawnvip
03-02-2011, 20:50
with the possibility of > $4, $5 a gallon in the near future...


Right now, the price of gas here is $1.28/litre which works out to $4.85 per gallon (for regular!) Good thing I live close enough to the US border that I can go across the line to buy my gas.

I drove my old Pontiac near to death and finally gave it to the son to learn on so I could get a new one. I did A LOT of research, test drove my faves, and waited until the next year's models were in the showroom. If you are set on a new car, the dealers will bend over backwards to get rid of last year's models (redundant inventory).

CWSWine
03-02-2011, 20:59
I purchased my car in 2000 for $12,000.00 then I spent a couple of years and $8,000.00 fixing it up. I had to get an written certified appraisal for my auto insurance company and it came in $90,000.00. Some cars can be good investment and lot more fun then 401K.

scottv
03-02-2011, 21:36
A good investment? Are you saying that buying a 6 month old vehicle at 7K less would have provided less utility?

Straegen
03-02-2011, 22:09
I purchased my car in 2000 for $12,000.00 then I spent a couple of years and $8,000.00 fixing it up. I had to get an written certified appraisal for my auto insurance company and it came in $90,000.00. Some cars can be good investment and lot more fun then 401K.

The car isn't really the capital gain the labor and the work you put in is. When I write a piece of software or a builder builds a home the capital is gained from the work not asset growth. Now if you bought your car with the purpose of it going up in value, didn't do anything and it goes up in value then yes it is a true investment but I don't think that is what we are discussing here.

I would close that it must be one hell of a car. Few restorations bring that kind of money at auction.

bigman241
03-02-2011, 22:18
sounds like our lot, heck thats double the money

You want advice? Listen to TJDiver.

BTW, a dealer told my son while I quietly sat next to him. Okay, how about $367 a month for 36 months, if thats too tough I could do $350 for 60 months.
I won't tell you what my son said.

bigman241
03-02-2011, 22:23
the advise the woman at the bank gave me which I will share was this. A car dealer will get you no more of a chance at approval then you would walking in saying hey I would like to talk with someone about a auto loan, what she did say it gets you is shafted it. A dealer can run your loan and everything or you and tack on 1-2% for them selfs, so that say 20% loan becomes a 22% loan.

My dad bought a 2007 1/2 ton chevy, he wanted 4x4 so I bought it for his price 10600 plus the taxes, paid it off in a year, when I traded it in I got 12k for it on my jeep, which was alittle high, but not to much, I got the whole it will be worth nearly your purchase price in a year, year later 18000 purchase prices gives me 12k trade in plus the 2k in tires and wheels on her.

My plan now which was my plan a week ago, fix her to be my toy(12mpg she ant a Daily driver) and drive the ****ing wheels off it, replace them and run her through some fun trails till she quites. My goal is pay it off in a year from now and get me choke a car with goo mpg, or my manly harley which still gets good mpg, the 600 a month payment on the new jeep or camero would kill my diving budget.

snagel
03-03-2011, 06:22
I'd rather spend the day at the dentist than to go car shopping. Don't buy new.....lose atleast 20% once you drive it off the lot. One of my brother-in-laws sells cars and we have talked about this a lot. First rule, car dealers don't want your trade in unless they can get it for free. They believe they are doing you a favor and taking your old car off you hands....you are all glamour eyed over your new vehicle and don't think much about what the value of your old car is and you just want to get rid of it anyway. Yes, they play with the numbers for the trade in to get your car for free if they can.

Best advice my BIL gave me....when you walk onto the lot know what you want to spend and what a good price for the car is. Don't talk about trade in or financing until they give you a real number on the car. Once they give you a number then "change your mind" and ask them about the trade in. (You will be amazed at the low number they give you for you car with the explanation that it really isn't worth anything and that they would just have to try and off load it at the auto auction). Ask them to put their offer in writing because you are bad with numbers and tell them that you want to stop by your bank and see what they can do on the financing. This will piss them off because they have screwed you on the financing trying to make up for the low price they quoted you. If they refuse to do this, walk away. They will probably tell you at this point, the offer is only good right now and if you leave it's off the table.....walk away.

Another game I play with them is the "I want to talk to the decision maker not you". I always seem to get the new guy or the young guy that is playing the game of I need to make a sale and I will give you a good deal because I'm new or young. They always seem to have to go to the back room to talk to the "manager" to get approval. This game makes it seem like they are on your side and working against the "manager" to get you a deal. Ask to talk to the "manager"...they won't do this. However, if they feel the deal is walking away some "manager" will walk up and introduce himself and try and seal the deal. I actually had one walk up and tell the "younger" guy, "We have a contract on this vehicle, but if we make a deal right now I will let it go". I looked at him and said I don't want to buy from you if you treat your customers like that....you have a deal with another person on this car, but you will sell it to me. (I was asked to leave the lot and not come back)



Snagel

TJDiver
03-03-2011, 07:17
...
Another game I play with them is the "I want to talk to the decision maker not you". I always seem to get the new guy or the young guy that is playing the game of I need to make a sale and I will give you a good deal because I'm new or young. They always seem to have to go to the back room to talk to the "manager" to get approval. This game makes it seem like they are on your side and working against the "manager" to get you a deal. Ask to talk to the "manager"...they won't do this. However, if they feel the deal is walking away some "manager" will walk up and introduce himself and try and seal the deal. I actually had one walk up and tell the "younger" guy, "We have a contract on this vehicle, but if we make a deal right now I will let it go". I looked at him and said I don't want to buy from you if you treat your customers like that....you have a deal with another person on this car, but you will sell it to me. (I was asked to leave the lot and not come back)

Snagel

They actually have an official name for that tactic, but I can't remember what it is. Many years ago, my wife and I used to do something similar to the dealer. We would find the vehicle we wanted together, and then I would go to the lot alone sometime later. When they would put a price under my nose, I would inform them that the vehicle was really for my wife, but she was at home and could not make it to the lot today. Of course, we would also have very low numbers firmly in mind, and I would tell them there was no way my wife would come off her price that much. I would then step outside, call her, and we would talk about whatever...all the while acting like I was "going to the manager". Basically, we removed direct access to the "decision maker" on our end, and it actually works about as well for the buyer as it does for the dealer...just gotta stick to your guns.

Straegen
03-03-2011, 08:13
the advise the woman at the bank gave me which I will share was this. A car dealer will get you no more of a chance at approval then you would walking in saying hey I would like to talk with someone about a auto loan, what she did say it gets you is shafted it. A dealer can run your loan and everything or you and tack on 1-2% for them selfs, so that say 20% loan becomes a 22% loan. That isn't entirely true. A finance branch in a car dealership does a few things a single bank doesn't. The first thing is there are often manufacturer special rates such as 0% financing on certain models. Now often it is better to take the cash rebate than the finance offer and use outside financing but at least you have an option. The second thing they do is they run your credit through multiple sources. So bank A might give you 8% but bank B might give you 7%. Now often these are floated based on the kickback the dealership gets but if a person bargains they will often find the lowest rate among all the dealership sources. Course you can do all this yourself and likely find as good or better than a dealership but that takes time and some people value that more than a couple bucks at the end of a day.

That said, the best thing IMO you can do is take any cash rebate, find a solid credit union and get your loan through them. Credit unions are usually competitive and in some cases have better rates. However the real reason to go with them is they are going to work with you if something happens. Credit unions don't often jack rates on missed payments, repo, etc. They want to help you rather than fleece you assuming it is a good credit union anyway. This also applies to homes but I am a biased as my in-law is a VP at Firestone Federal.

mm2002
03-03-2011, 09:14
I would close that it must be one hell of a car. Few restorations bring that kind of money at auction.

I spent many years in the classic car restoration business, and I can tel you for a fact that the insurance appraisal is always padded, and really has nothing to do with the real cash value of the car. The car is and always will be worth EXACTLY what someone is willing to pay for it. No more, no less. I sold a car at auction for $36K and had a written appraisal with it for over $60K. Fact is, getting that appraisal, and being willing to pay the insurance premiums accordingly, can come in very handy if something catastrophic happens to the car, or it gets stolen.

bigman241
03-03-2011, 09:40
I know, but honestly this is how this lot works, they do not snizz without pre approval, I know a guy who knocked 2k off a car and they fired him for it, even though he had made them 5k in profit, not that he did it, but that he did not ask. I thought about going back in there today and talking to the manager, we know him and he has always been fair, should have let my dad do it. LOL
They actually have an official name for that tactic, but I can't remember what it is. Many years ago, my wife and I used to do something similar to the dealer. We would find the vehicle we wanted together, and then I would go to the lot alone sometime later. When they would put a price under my nose, I would inform them that the vehicle was really for my wife, but she was at home and could not make it to the lot today. Of course, we would also have very low numbers firmly in mind, and I would tell them there was no way my wife would come off her price that much. I would then step outside, call her, and we would talk about whatever...all the while acting like I was "going to the manager". Basically, we removed direct access to the "decision maker" on our end, and it actually works about as well for the buyer as it does for the dealer...just gotta stick to your guns.

bigman241
03-03-2011, 09:43
yeap, it might be worth 36k but cost 60 to replace, figure preminum on the car, new parts, the insurance company can not say well this 2000 part is only 500 used. I called about home insurance, the guy ask how much you want I said 250k, that would be the replacement cost to build a home size in our town. HE said we can not do it, I was figuring the number was to high, he said he can only do it for 600,000 :smiley29:. I asked so if my house burns down your going to give me 600k, he said yeap, I said heck for 600k I could buy 5 acres on a lake (cumberland) and rebuild my home new and better, and till buy me a new f350
I spent many years in the classic car restoration business, and I can tel you for a fact that the insurance appraisal is always padded, and really has nothing to do with the real cash value of the car. The car is and always will be worth EXACTLY what someone is willing to pay for it. No more, no less. I sold a car at auction for $36K and had a written appraisal with it for over $60K. Fact is, getting that appraisal, and being willing to pay the insurance premiums accordingly, can come in very handy if something catastrophic happens to the car, or it gets stolen.

Zenagirl
03-03-2011, 11:46
I always buy new cars but only because I keep them for a minimum of 10 years. I walk into the dealership with my homework done for pricing and options, an approved sight draft in hand, and proceed to make a cash deal with them. If I don't like what they're offering, I walk out the door....and only once have they actually let me get into my car and leave.

One of our best "screw you" events to the dealer was when we agreed to a price that was $1000 more than our bottom line on a truck, but made them agree to pay for a certain canopy we wanted. They screwed up and didn't do their homework since the canopy we wanted was an $1800 insulated and carpeted metal one, not a cheapo fiberglass shell. :) They weren't happy when they got the bill and actually tried to come back at us, but we had the specific canopy brand and model listed in our truck purchase contract and they didn't have a leg to stand on. :D

The only time we've ever made money on a car was when we bought a 1987 Grand National in 1992 with 15000 miles on it. We put another 5000 miles on it in the next 2 years and sold it for $3000 more than we bought it for. :)

Bert
03-03-2011, 12:08
When I was shoping for my truck here is what I did.
I went to dealer ship whith poor rep for customer service toldthe what I wanted and asked for there best price. I also told them I wanter a manuel trans for the folloing reason A) 1000 option (this is true for ford chrysler and gm) and I can drive a stick, and B) FBI stitistics say you are less lickly to get carjacked driving stick. (Too many people don't drive them) after I got there number as a base number I went to multipal dealerships to compair prices. To be fair I wrote down what I wanted so each dealer ship got the same info. I ended up with an automatic trans, but was prepaired to get a stick if the dealer called my bluff.

fire diver
03-03-2011, 12:16
While there is a lot of financial truth to buying nearly new used cars, But sometimes new makes more sense. I just bought my first ever "new" vehicle in 2008. I needed a truck. I have a problem with buying a used truck for hauling. Those one or two year old trucks were either leases, rentals, or repos. None of those 3 classes of auto is going to be treated correctly. When you know you are only going to have it a year or two, you treat it like crap and abuse the hell out of it. The attitude is "Who cares if the transmission fails at 70,000 miles, I won't be driving it then."

Besides, the 20% loss when you drive it off the lot only applies to selling. Barely used trucks tend to sell for almost as much as a new one.

Buy new, treat it right and it will last WAY longer than your loan.

snagel
03-04-2011, 05:53
Here is a another story.....

I don't finance cars through banks. I act as my own bank. I have a car account set up and do a direct withdrawel into this account every payday. That way when I need to buy a car I have the money to do it. Even with the 0% financing you have to be careful to ensure you get the right price.

I purchased a car once and couldn't get the price I wanted unless I financed it through them. The game: They were giving me a heck of a deal on the car, but making up for the deal with the financing. I agreed and then when the first payment was due I paid the car off. A month later, I got a call from the dealer asking why I had paid off the vehicle. I told them I didn't like to have car payments and didn't want to pay the interest on the loan. This led to a huge debate and at the end he was very upset because he had lost money on the car. He actually was trying to make me feel sorry for him.

I've also used the "my wife can't make it to the lot" game as well. It works and drives them nuts. It's kinda entertaining to listen to how they try everything to get me to get my wife down to the lot. Actually had one offer to drive to my house to pick her up.

Snagel

bigman241
03-04-2011, 06:46
thats kind of the way it went with my truck. They showed it to my dad and told him bottom dollar was 14999, he offered them 10k, for the guy came back over and said what would it take to get you in that car today, he said 10k, 20 minutes later how about 11,500, he said how about 10. the last time he told them he would do 11,500 but it was with taxes and they filled the fuel tank, the taxs and such put it at 10,140 bucks and to fill the 34 gallon tank was 110 bucks or so, so they got him for 30 bucks over what he offered, the fun part was since it was in 2008 during the car sales crash we got it cheap, when I bought my jeep they offered me 12k for the truck, lol though the jeep was over priced a tad bit
I always buy new cars but only because I keep them for a minimum of 10 years. I walk into the dealership with my homework done for pricing and options, an approved sight draft in hand, and proceed to make a cash deal with them. If I don't like what they're offering, I walk out the door....and only once have they actually let me get into my car and leave.

One of our best "screw you" events to the dealer was when we agreed to a price that was $1000 more than our bottom line on a truck, but made them agree to pay for a certain canopy we wanted. They screwed up and didn't do their homework since the canopy we wanted was an $1800 insulated and carpeted metal one, not a cheapo fiberglass shell. :) They weren't happy when they got the bill and actually tried to come back at us, but we had the specific canopy brand and model listed in our truck purchase contract and they didn't have a leg to stand on. :D

The only time we've ever made money on a car was when we bought a 1987 Grand National in 1992 with 15000 miles on it. We put another 5000 miles on it in the next 2 years and sold it for $3000 more than we bought it for. :)

itsjust.mark
03-05-2011, 11:59
I dont really have much to contribute, but thanks for the ideas of the "wife stuck at home" and the good price / high financing contract that you pay off in a month.

When Im buying a newer car, Ill be sure to use those tactics.

Zeagle Eagle
03-05-2011, 21:04
Here is a another story.....

I don't finance cars through banks. I act as my own bank. I have a car account set up and do a direct withdrawel into this account every payday. That way when I need to buy a car I have the money to do it. Even with the 0% financing you have to be careful to ensure you get the right price.

I purchased a car once and couldn't get the price I wanted unless I financed it through them. The game: They were giving me a heck of a deal on the car, but making up for the deal with the financing. I agreed and then when the first payment was due I paid the car off. A month later, I got a call from the dealer asking why I had paid off the vehicle. I told them I didn't like to have car payments and didn't want to pay the interest on the loan. This led to a huge debate and at the end he was very upset because he had lost money on the car. He actually was trying to make me feel sorry for him.

I've also used the "my wife can't make it to the lot" game as well. It works and drives them nuts. It's kinda entertaining to listen to how they try everything to get me to get my wife down to the lot. Actually had one offer to drive to my house to pick her up.

Snagel
BEST POST OF THE THREAD

One thing I will add, after I do the deal and they think they are going to finance it. I pull out my checkbook and pay cash in total. Pisses them off to no end. I also don't pay for the "document" fees. It's the law they have to let you file your own paperwork. Of course they will never let you out of the dealership with the contract so you get it for free.