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View Full Version : Can you do a "deep diving" class in 60'?



Doghouse
09-17-2007, 15:21
I think that the open water work for my deep class will be done in 63' or less. Does that realy constitute "deep" diving?

I keep hearing of people going to 100 - 120 for deep diving. Around here most of the wrecks are 80+', and I would like some experiance at that depth before going it with a regular buddy. So, how do I nicely explain to my instructor that I feel like I am being cheated? If I am paying for a deep diving class, I expect a deep diving checkout.

subsur
09-17-2007, 15:30
from the AOW class that I took recently I learned that deep diving is below 60 feet. so 63' does constitute deep dive.

ianr33
09-17-2007, 16:28
Is this the PADI course?
http://www.padi.com/padi/en/kd/deepdivercoursedetail.aspx

Technically 63 feet would be within standards but I think you are being cheated and should go elsewhere.

somewhereinla
09-17-2007, 16:33
The idea behind a deep dive is to make you feel what Nitrogen Narcosis feels like while an instructor is around. At 63 ft, you don't get Narcosis, Narcosis starts at 70-75 ft and under... You usually "really"feel it at 90-100ft.
So with this in mind, a 63ft dive is not a deep dive.

A good instructor will not only take you deep enough so that you can feel Narcosis, he/she will also make you do some simple exercises so that you can understand and see for yourself how much slower you start thinking under narcosis...

WV Diver
09-17-2007, 16:34
If you are doing an AOW class there usually is a task to perform that you will compare the time it takes to do this task on the surface, that's it. And 63' makes the grade.

If however you are taking a Deep Diver course than there are alot of theory and other tasks to discuss and perform under the instruction of certified instructor. It varies somewhat depending on the agency. In this case you should confront your instructor............in a professional manner.

greyzen
09-17-2007, 16:37
yeah I would suggest you ask the instructor to rethink the depth...
If anything, they might be nice enough to offer to come with you outside of class so that you can experience life at the bottom

gtjason2000
09-17-2007, 16:43
I agree it's technically deep but a cheat for "deep diver" but not necessarily AOW. Are you limited to 63' based on the body of water chosen for the class? I would try and convince the instructor to do the deep dive at the wrecks if that is where you want to go with the deep diver.

greyzen
09-17-2007, 16:54
If you are limited by the depth of the dive site the instructor should have brought a really big shovel, or chosen another site...
even for AOW 63' seems a bit shallow in my opinion.

Doghouse
09-17-2007, 19:41
Ok, so that is what I was thinking. I have been down to the point where the class goes to on 4 different dives. He has seen my log book, and seen that I had been to that point. I do feel cheated. I am a little apprehensive about doing an ocean dive with my buddy who is just as "fresh water" as I am. Most of the ocean dives here are limited vis (10 - 15' is considered good to great). So with the depth and low vis, I am apprehensive. I was looking forward to this class because I thought that it would include an ocean deep dive. Seeing as how this is the last class that I need for my AOW, I was truely hoping for that education.

pnevai
09-17-2007, 22:23
Unless things have radically changed, A deep dive is anything over 60 ft. And the purpose is not to get you narced. It was to be used as an excersize for you to be able to accurately calculate your bottom time according to the dive tables and surface interval out gassing period. I guess that dive computers have made this task pointless, that is if diving by tables is not taught anymore. We used to make the deep dive 66 feet or 3 atmospheres.

texdiveguy
09-17-2007, 22:44
I think that the open water work for my deep class will be done in 63' or less. Does that realy constitute "deep" diving?

I keep hearing of people going to 100 - 120 for deep diving. Around here most of the wrecks are 80+', and I would like some experiance at that depth before going it with a regular buddy. So, how do I nicely explain to my instructor that I feel like I am being cheated? If I am paying for a deep diving class, I expect a deep diving checkout.


I think this is your Deep AOW dive....60ft. is the min. standard on that part of the AOW class. If you feel uncomfortable in deeper diving on your own/buddy....take small steps on each dive to go a bit deeper each time within your 'comfort zone'....no big hurry is there? You are being introduced to just deep diving skills and safety concerns and proper gear---this can be done in 60ft of water for the AOW class dive. Take a Deep Diver Specialty for more detailed training in deeper water after you complete your AOW. Have fun!

Doghouse
09-18-2007, 08:53
Take a Deep Diver Specialty for more detailed training in deeper water after you complete your AOW. Have fun!


This is my Deep Diver Specialty! That is my point.

chinacat46
09-18-2007, 09:06
When I teach the AOW I like to take the students down to at least 80' unless there is a student between 12-15 in which case the max depth is 70'. I think it's important for the students to get deeper then 63' since getting there AOW really qualifies them to dive to 100'. Different people react differently to depth and I would rather my students experience it with a qualified professional for the first time in case there are any problems. While diving to 63' qualifies as a deep dive it really is no indication on how you will react at 100'. Be aware to that even if you are fine diving to depth on one day conditions and your well being at the time may cause you to have problems on another day. I very rarely dive below 80' unless there is something special below that depth I want to see. Diving deep just to go deep is not a good objective and also shortens your dive time not to mention your chances for DCI.

greyzen
09-18-2007, 09:24
like I said, call 'em up and ask him which option he was going for:
1) Bringing a shovel and extra tanks to MAKE a hole deeper than 63'
2) Which new dive site are you guys heading to

If he/she is unwilling to deal with depth for your DEPTH specialty, I would explain your nervousness and ask the LDS to switch out your instructor or refund your class purchase.

texdiveguy
09-18-2007, 10:03
Take a Deep Diver Specialty for more detailed training in deeper water after you complete your AOW. Have fun!


This is my Deep Diver Specialty! That is my point.

Then you do have some concern....I would def. find another instructor!!!

chinacat46
09-18-2007, 10:35
Wait a minute is this a deep diver speciality or your deep dive for your AOW. The two are not the same. You said earlier this was the deep dive for your AOW. The deep dive speciality is 4 deep dives and hopefully will take you deepter then 100' though that is not a requirement.

scubasamurai
09-18-2007, 11:06
if you have concerns, talk with the instructor or the lds owner/operator. my deep divers are at 80-100 ft. the guld diving takes along time to get to really deep water, we have plently of sink holes and range from 80-130 plus feet. this was all under padi ( so enough) tech 60 ft is considered the start of deep diving, but to get the "feel" of narcosis and how the pressure affects you and your equipment makes a difference. there is no shooting up from 100ft unless you want to stroke out. if it matters that much find someone else or a different lds and makes sure you ask how deep you will do your dives in

in_cavediver
09-18-2007, 11:35
Take a Deep Diver Specialty for more detailed training in deeper water after you complete your AOW. Have fun!


This is my Deep Diver Specialty! That is my point.

Since this the deep specialy. Run Far - Run Fast and go somewhere else.

Deep specialty should take you beyond 100'. Period. No questions, no excuses.

RonFrank
09-18-2007, 11:52
I think you answered your own question in your first post. So now what are you prepared to do about it! :smiley2:

RECDiver
09-18-2007, 12:17
Most agencies define a deep recreational dive as 60-130 feet. So, unless there was an issue with ears or the bottom is at 63 feet, you got cheated. Two of the four open water dives should go to at least 100 feet, unless you dive on four separate days, then you could do all four dives to 100 feet or deeper.
I take Advanced students to at least 100 feet. I take MSD and Deep Diver students to 120-130 feet.

Doghouse
09-18-2007, 12:57
I guess that we have all agreed that 63 is shallow. So now how would you go about discussing this with the Instructor / owner?

I know that he is busy with OW classes, and all but I realy want my deep dive to be a Deep dive. Or do you think that if I am cautious after getting this last specialty, I should be OK doing some of the Mid-Atlantic's wrecks. i.e.
http://www.nc-wreckdiving.com/WRECKS/U352/U352.HTML

ianr33
09-18-2007, 13:34
Am I correct in thinking that the 63 foot dive will be an inland site?

If so I think it is pretty much useless preparation for a 100 foot deep offshore wreck .

Some (not all!) instructors and shops are just in it for the money. I once did a course that barely met standards,but I knew what I was getting into and I wanted the card. (I was already doing the dives)

I would very seriously consider another instructor.

texdiveguy
09-18-2007, 14:34
I once did a course that barely met standards,but I knew what I was getting into and I wanted the card.

Ian is really just a card collector........he has more dang cards than most of us together....... :-)

CompuDude
09-18-2007, 14:36
I would explain your concerns to your instructor, and respectfully request that he reschedule the location for your deep dives, or refund your money.

The Deep Diver specialty really needs to thoroughly expose a diver to what may expected at those deep depths (including your reaction to Narcosis), and while the 63' depth may just barely make the standards, it's not going to serve you well for the purposes I've just described.

I was certified a long time ago, but my AOW deep dive was to 125'. My deep dive specialty dives were to 130' (ok, we actually slipped down to 135'). And I STILL didn't have any noticeable effects from narcosis... all of my timed skill tests were the same or better as at the surface.

greyzen
09-18-2007, 15:37
Personally, I would do as CompuDude says. (he really is a very smart gentlemen)

Explain that you are not comfortable with just going to 63' and that you paid for a DEEP guided dive. Explain that you do plan on diving to greater than 60' and that you would like to be supervised for the certification and not just taken to the minimums.

Tips:

1) If they try to talk you out of it, immediately ask for a refund. Your fears/nerves are justified.
2) If they get defensive, immediately ask for a refund. This is your life, not theirs
3) If the instructor says "That's all we can do". Ask the LDS to switch you out with someone who is more qualified or willing.
4) If the LDS gives you lip, ask to speak to the owner... if you are, explain that you want a refund.

Don't let them push or salespitch you around...

willardj
09-18-2007, 16:33
I would be highly pissed off if I was paying for a deep diving class and they told me that the deepest we were going to go was 60 something feet. If they are going to teach a deep class the first 2 dives should be around 100' and the last 2 dives should be in the 120 to 130 foot range. That way the students would get the most out of there class.

georoc01
09-18-2007, 17:32
I also assume you are diving at sea level. We did my deep dives to 80 feet at altitude which provides a Theortical Depth of 109 feet.

navyhmc
11-17-2007, 06:28
Come on over to the midwest and I'll take you to a fairly safe dive spot for a 100'+ dive or two. If you're in the Joplin area, drop me a PM.

The planning part of a deep class is very important, but the execution of the plan and how to make adjustments once you're down is equally important. One of the best exercises to do is have a simple task/puzzle and have someone time you on how long it takes you to complete it on the surface then do that same task/puzzle at depth 100' is a good starting point, You will be surpirsed how long it takes you to do a simple task at depth.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
11-17-2007, 12:28
From what I recall, 63 ft is officially deep, but the recommended depth for the 3rd deep dive of the PADI deep diver course is between 100 and 130 ft. The first dive must exceed 60 feet and must *not* exceed 100 ft. Your course does not seem to meet the PADI recommendations. If that is the best the shop can do due to local diving environment then IMHO they should not offer the deep diving specialty at all.

DivingsInMyBlood
11-17-2007, 16:24
I think that the open water work for my deep class will be done in 63' or less. Does that realy constitute "deep" diving?

I keep hearing of people going to 100 - 120 for deep diving. Around here most of the wrecks are 80+', and I would like some experiance at that depth before going it with a regular buddy. So, how do I nicely explain to my instructor that I feel like I am being cheated? If I am paying for a deep diving class, I expect a deep diving checkout.

I would go somewhere else that takes you down deeper so you can experience getting slightly narced and being with an experienced instructor to teach you the skills you need. 63 or less does not sound right to me.

CaptainRon
11-17-2007, 22:43
Seeing as how this is the last class that I need for my AOW, I was truely hoping for that education.

Is this the actual Deep Diving Specialty or is it just the deep adventure dive required for AOW? If it is the adventure dive, it would only be one dive that could be credited to the first dive on the specialty course and would only be an introduction to diving below 60'.

If it is the full deep specialty, I would think a depth of just over 60 feet would be reasonable for the first dive, with the next 3 working up to something near the maximum of 130. Maybe the instructor meant that the first OW dive would be at 63', with next dives going deeper. I would get clarification from the instructor first to make sure you didn't misunderstand.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
11-19-2007, 13:20
I guess that we have all agreed that 63 is shallow. So now how would you go about discussing this with the Instructor / owner?

I know that he is busy with OW classes, and all but I realy want my deep dive to be a Deep dive. Or do you think that if I am cautious after getting this last specialty, I should be OK doing some of the Mid-Atlantic's wrecks. i.e.
Wreck of the U-352 (http://www.nc-wreckdiving.com/WRECKS/U352/U352.HTML)

Other than the academic work, an inland deep course to a max of 63 feet does not in any way prepare you to dive the U352 or even some of the easier wrecks off the NC coast. But here is an idea, why not take a deep course through a shop in NC? You'd actually get to dive some deep wrecks under the supervision of an instructor. It might even be possible to dive the 352 on one of your training dives. One shop even offers a class called the North Carolina Coastal Specialty. You dive 4 wrecks over 2 days and get your Deep and Wreck specialty. I think they are an SSI shop and they are done for the season.

shad
12-19-2007, 10:27
I think as a deep diving class they should take you to the limit of 130 ft to give you a taste of being narked anything less is a waste

LostnVA
12-28-2007, 07:33
Originally submitted by BouzoukiJoe:

Other than the academic work, an inland deep course to a max of 63 feet does not in any way prepare you to dive the U352 or even some of the easier wrecks off the NC coast. But here is an idea, why not take a deep course through a shop in NC? You'd actually get to dive some deep wrecks under the supervision of an instructor. It might even be possible to dive the 352 on one of your training dives. One shop even offers a class called the North Carolina Coastal Specialty. You dive 4 wrecks over 2 days and get your Deep and Wreck specialty. I think they are an SSI shop and they are done for the season.[/quote]

Do you have more information about this North Carolina Coastal Specialty?

My AOW deep dive was to 62' and we were almost laying on the bottom for that. Had a long swim out from the shore in HI. I've had other deeper dives since then with dive charters, but deepest is still barely over 100'.

emcbride81
12-28-2007, 10:00
Not to hijack the thread, but in regards to the SSI cert, if one were to get the wreck and deep cert in the OBX, would that crossover to meet PADI DM requirements?

divingbuddy
12-28-2007, 10:14
The PADI standards for the Deep Diver Special Course (as quoted from the Specialty Course Instructor manual) are:

Open water training dive one - recommended 80 - 100 feet (100' max)

Open water training dive two - recommended 60 - 80 feet

Open water training dive three - recommended 100 - 130 feet

Open water training dive four - recommended 60 - 100 feet

There are many things to be covered over the duration of these four training dives - including proper dive planning and gas management (which can be done at any depth, particularly below 60 feet).

However, to certifiy someone as a Deep Diver (full speciality), the diver should be exploring close to the recreational dive limit under the direct supervision of an instructor (hence this course, and PADI's recommendation of dive 3 being from 100 to 130 feet).

You should ask your instructor why he/she feels PADI's recommended depths for your training dives do not appear to match the course he/she is offering you.

Just my two cents....Cheers!

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
01-04-2008, 09:26
Excellent post, divingbuddy.

I don't know if PADI accepts the SSI specialties as part of it's requirements for DM requirements. My hunch is no they don't.

The course I was referring to is offered by Gypsy Divers in Raleigh. Below is the poop from their web site.


The Carolina Coast Specialty
Deep and Wreck specialties Combined
Tuition: $150
("you got to go where the wrecks are..." Captain T. Leonard, Outrageous V)

We can easily utilize the Deep and Wreck specialty programs in a combined fashion to teach safe offshore North Carolina diving, where we normally dive on wrecks below 100 feet... And our 20 years of experience have taught us that one needs to know what one is up to when one jumps off a perfectly good boat into the open Atlantic ocean 30 to 50 miles offshore. Appropriate training accelerates a diver's ability to learn these important things. So here's how we structure this combined program:



One full briefing session - to go over these issues:
* Wreck orientation / dive planning
* Emergency procedures
* Air consumption / decompression issues
* Boat procedures
* And etc...
One quarry session: (normally the weekend before the Charter)
* Comprehensive dive skills review
* Coastal Boat Exits (modified Giant Stride) and ladder reboarding
* Hang-line review
* Weighting
* Equipment check-out
* and etc...


Two days of diving the offshore wrecks (4 dives):
* All dives are completed under the supervision of an experienced offshore instructor.
* Since these wrecks are typically in the 100' - 130' range, we require that the Deep Diver course be completed prior to taking the Wreck Diver course. We facilitate this, though, by offering the Deep course on Saturday and the Wreck course on Sunday. And yes, the Deep course is done on wrecks. (we don't make you sit out in the sand.)
The bottom line:
After completion of our Deep and Wreck program, divers will know the protocol utilized by dive charter operators like Discovery Diving (http://www.discoverydiving.com/) or Olympus Dive Charters (http://www.olympusdiving.com/) for diving the wrecks of North Carolina, down to a max depth of 130'.

DiveKwaj
01-04-2008, 23:05
Technically, it is legal, but when you are paying for the instructor's time, you should get what you pay for.

I tell my students the options, evaluate their wants and needs and make the best choice for them within the standards.