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GManTx
02-12-2012, 20:30
I start my class in three more weeks and was wondering if you can wear swim goggles when you do your swim test. It's not a big deal but would make it easier since a wear contacts.

FoxHound
02-12-2012, 21:05
it would be really strange if you couldn't......ive done all mine in my dive mask

Tom H
02-13-2012, 00:34
Consensus on other boards is it has never been denied by an instructor. If you are doing PADI, the standard reads --without any aids. It is apparently interpreted by instructors that goggles really aren't an aid. Obviously it makes swimming a lot easier (thus, an "aid"), and probably every competitive swimmer wears them. I used them. I would complain if you were not permitted to use them.

snagel
02-13-2012, 06:30
It never hurts to ask...the only thing they can say is no. If you wear contacts, I can see where this may be a huge issue.

My wife (cert through PADI) didn't use any goggles for the swim test, but didn't ask. During my cert (through IANTD) didn't use any, but again didn't ask. I'm thinking the whole purpose of the exercise is to determine your fit level and see how comfortable you are in the water. Not sure how goggles would impair that. I thought somebody told me that there was an alternate exercise in PADI where you could use a mask and maybe even a snorkel, but it was a little different than the standard swimming exercise (maybe I'm dreaming this up).

Snagel

Davetowz
02-13-2012, 09:49
Yes, PADI also has the alternate Mask, snorkel fins swim @ 300 Meters/yards for the OW class.

GManTx
02-13-2012, 12:37
Thanks for the replies. I guess that I will have to ask my instructor to get the real answer as to how they feel about it.

Davetowz
02-13-2012, 20:45
Verbatim from 2012 PADI Instructor Manual:
At some point before certification, have students complete a 200 metre/yard continuous surface swim or a 300 metre/yard swim with mask, fins and snorkel.
If conditions warrant, students may wear an exposure suit as long as they are weighted for neutral bouyancy.
Nothing said re: goggles.

chinacat46
02-13-2012, 21:56
It's a swim test when people swim in pools they wear goggles somethings don't need to be stated.

Tom H
02-13-2012, 23:44
Verbatim from 2012 PADI Instructor Manual:
At some point before certification, have students complete a 200 metre/yard continuous surface swim or a 300 metre/yard swim with mask, fins and snorkel.
If conditions warrant, students may wear an exposure suit as long as they are weighted for neutral bouyancy.
Nothing said re: goggles.

Consensus seems to be the 200 vs. 300 standard is to be determined by the instructor, thus it is not a choice for the student. My personal experience bares this out.

PlatypusMan
02-14-2012, 02:08
When and where will this class be?

GManTx
02-14-2012, 08:55
Surface interval scuba in Arlington. First week of march.

PlatypusMan
02-14-2012, 11:49
Talk ahead of time with the instructor and mention your concerns. They are a decent shop (though I had hoped you were in one of my classes at ST) and I'm sure can give you the answers you need.

rharris144
02-19-2012, 10:52
In my certs class just recently, we were allowed to wear mask, with fins and snorkel but our laps were increased to 300 which became 12 laps instead of 8. trick was, you gotta do the 12 laps if u wear the mask without the fins so you mays well wear the fins and get done faster. Good luck!!

Tom H
02-20-2012, 00:05
Mask and snorkel are nice. Fins turn a complicated "timing" sport into a simple test of leg strength (ei. if you can snorkel you can do this--especially with no time limit!--their ain't much in the way of skills). Bringing my usual question: Why isn't either one or the other the required test? PADI: Pick one and make it standard for all courses, not a choice for each instructor.

cowgirldiver
02-20-2012, 13:34
When I did my swims for NAUI, we had to do both.

Okc_diver
02-21-2012, 22:37
I had a choice when I did my cert

GManTx
03-04-2012, 21:14
Well I finished up my pool ride today. We did not have a choice but no one had any problems.with the 400M swim. We were aloud to use goggles though. I had a blast and now can't wait until next weekend for our open water check out dives at Balmorea.

navyhmc
03-04-2012, 23:24
Have fun GMan! Don't sweat it. I've heard Balmorea is a good plce for OQ checkouts. Too far for me to go though it is on the bucket list.

Tom H
03-04-2012, 23:38
Well I finished up my pool ride today. We did not have a choice but no one had any problems.with the 400M swim. We were aloud to use goggles though. I had a blast and now can't wait until next weekend for our open water check out dives at Balmorea.

Glad it went so well & you're excited for the OW checkout dives. Getting that handshake and "congratulations you are an open water diver" was a moment to remember.
You had to do 400 metres? That's for PADI Divemaster course--you must mean 200? Good you could use the goggles (why not?). No choice to do the swim or 300 with mask/fins/snorkel?--that's my point....it's the instructor's choice.
Can't resist (though I should post in Whine and Cheese): It's "allowed" to use goggles--not "aloud". Aloud is--I was talking aloud. Sorry.

Davetowz
03-05-2012, 00:50
It is not the instructors choice. The Inst Manual states that either may be used, does not state the instructor has a choice.

Tom H
03-05-2012, 01:10
It is not the instructors choice. The Inst Manual states that either may be used, does not state the instructor has a choice. I can't quote exactly, but the PADI standard reads about like this. "Have the students complete a 200 meter/yd. swim or a 300 mtr./yd. mask/snorkel/swim without any swim aids......" It doesn't specifically say it's the instructor's choice, but according to the consensus I've read and experienced, it is. It also doesn't say "the student has a choice of....". If I were an instructor and read the standard I would also interpret it to mean I, as instructor can have them do this, or that. If I'm wrong, how would you, as an instructor interpret (as you say) "either may be used"? If an instructor says "you must do this", can you as a student say "no, I choose to do that"? The OP just stated that his class did not have a choice, but they all did OK. I've heard of one instructor who let the class vote on which one to do--but I assume if you voted in the minority you had to fall in line. I'd really like to know how many posters out there had instructors who gave each student in the class a choice. The PADI standard should read clearer and spell out that it the instructor's choice at worst. At best, there should be one standard for all students--no choices for anybody.

mala
03-05-2012, 05:35
the students can choose which one to do. (Padi).

snagel
03-05-2012, 07:19
My wife did her OW a couple years ago and didn't get a choice. She was nervous about doing the swim test; so, I talked to the instructor and asked if she could do the swim test with mask and snorkel and he said no because the pool was fairly small. I've watched the start of many OW classes (In many environments) and have never seen anybody using a mask and snorkel to do the swim test.

I was certified through IANTD for OW. Honestly, for various reasons and a lot of disorganization, I didn't have to do a swim test. He was trying to get a guy through certification before he went to Iraq and knew I was on the list for OW as well. Because of time schedules, I didn't get to do the very first part of the pool session and missed the swim test. The instructor was okay with this because he knew my background.

Snagel

Tom H
03-14-2012, 00:07
mala, perhaps you are referring to your own students or your local situation? If you mean for PADI everywhere, snagel's post would seem to prove you incorrect.

scubadiver888
03-14-2012, 09:37
I see this topic come up again and again. So I asked PADI. Let's see what comes of it.

From PADI:


Each student has their own comfort level as a swimmer so it would be appropriate to inquire of the student which option they would prefer to perform in order to meet this requirement.

They also indicated that a student can use a mask or goggles for the 200 yard/metre swim but not a snorkel.

I typically see the instructor tell everyone to get swimming when the time comes to do the swim test. I think the instructor typically picks without student input because it is easier for everyone is doing the same thing. If some students are doing 200 metre and others are doing 300 metres, they have to keep track of how many lapse each student has done. If everyone is around the same speed, it is easier to keep track of when everyone is done when they are all doing 200 metres or all doing 300 metres.

The typical OW student doesn't know any better. Heck, most instructors probably assume the choice is their's.

Tom H
03-14-2012, 14:18
I see this topic come up again and again. So I asked PADI. Let's see what comes of it.

From PADI:



They also indicated that a student can use a mask or goggles for the 200 yard/metre swim but not a snorkel.

I typically see the instructor tell everyone to get swimming when the time comes to do the swim test. I think the instructor typically picks without student input because it is easier for everyone is doing the same thing. If some students are doing 200 metre and others are doing 300 metres, they have to keep track of how many lapse each student has done. If everyone is around the same speed, it is easier to keep track of when everyone is done when they are all doing 200 metres or all doing 300 metres.

The typical OW student doesn't know any better. Heck, most instructors probably assume the choice is their's.


Interesting. I agree with all that you say. I too e mailed PADI to get it exact, but that was a week ago and haven't heard back. Your PADI quote says it "would be appropriate"..... That tells me nothing about what is actually is required or not, but reads like it's appropriate for the instructor to do something, but not written in stone that he has to. So it says it's a good idea to give the student the choice but it is actually your choice as an instructor. Can they be any less clear than that???? Your bottom sentence hits the nail on the head.

BTW: For the DM tests of 400 meters swim and 800 meters (yds.)mask/fins/snorkel: I did them in a pool that was 11-12 meters long. We use that pool now because there is no charge like the bigger city pool. So to do 300 mask/fin/snorkel in a small pool is no big deal. Now, as far as the DM tests being timed (unlike the OW tests), there would be a considerable difference in times due to many more turns in a tiny pool. But that would not affect someone doing the untimed OW test. SO....it was probably just that snagel's wife's instructor decided what they would do regardless. Again, scubadiver888--- your bottom sentence. I did re-e mail PADI so we shall see.

scubadiver888
03-15-2012, 13:23
Interesting. I agree with all that you say. I too e mailed PADI to get it exact, but that was a week ago and haven't heard back. Your PADI quote says it "would be appropriate"..... That tells me nothing about what is actually is required or not, but reads like it's appropriate for the instructor to do something, but not written in stone that he has to. So it says it's a good idea to give the student the choice but it is actually your choice as an instructor. Can they be any less clear than that???? Your bottom sentence hits the nail on the head.

Additional clarification from PADI:


The instructor has ultimate authority over the course and may choose to have a student perform one option of the continuous swim versus the other.

PADI told me that it would be good customer service to give the student a choice. Especially if the student couldn't complete the 200 metre swim but could complete the 300 metre swim. I have heard of students complaining via qa@padi.com when an instructor fails them. Usually PADI will direct them to another shop and try to work out a deal so they don't have to pay for a full course again. Since I have only heard the student's side I don't know if anything was done with the original instructor.

Knowing PADI's general philosophy, they probably contacted the shop and diplomatically suggested you attract more bees with honey than vinegar. :smiley2:

My interactions with PADI (I go to the PADI meetings whenever PADI is in town; next meeting is in April) is that this is a service oriented business. If being right or abusing authority is more important than making your business successful than maybe you should get out of the dive industry. PADI wants to help make you a successful BUSINESS. They understand if the rules turn customers away that is bad for business. They don't want to give the student authority over the instructor but they want the instructor to make the student successful. If you tick off your customer and they don't go on to AOW, Rescue, Dry Suit, EFR, etc. then they aren't Putting Another Dollar In. :smiley2:


BTW: For the DM tests of 400 meters swim and 800 meters (yds.)mask/fins/snorkel: I did them in a pool that was 11-12 meters long. We use that pool now because there is no charge like the bigger city pool. So to do 300 mask/fin/snorkel in a small pool is no big deal. Now, as far as the DM tests being timed (unlike the OW tests), there would be a considerable difference in times due to many more turns in a tiny pool. But that would not affect someone doing the untimed OW test. SO....it was probably just that snagel's wife's instructor decided what they would do regardless. Again, scubadiver888--- your bottom sentence. I did re-e mail PADI so we shall see.

Hey, you got certified at the Cobra Swim Club pool too? :smilie39: That pool is 12.5 metres long. Had to do 32 lengths for the 400 metre and 64 lengths for the 800 metre. I actually got a little dizzy doing all the turns for my DM.

Tom H
03-15-2012, 20:39
scubadiver888, once again, I agree with all of that, and your PADI clarification does show that the instructor has the ultimate say. Once again, I would like to see everyone required to do it one way or the other, but I'm beating that dead horse. I got DM at Torpedo Rays in Dartymouth, NS. During the 800 I finally lost count on laps....I'm pretty sure she had me do 10 extra. But on the 400 I think I did 10 less, so I got a break there.....


OK, I just heard from PADI, which said what you said almost word for word. So, problem solved. The instructor chooses, period. But SHOULD give a choice is it's necessary for the student to pass and get OW (assuming all other practical requirements are met--well the only other swim test is the 10 min. float--I would ASSUME if the student can't do all the skills they shouldn't pass!!!). So I replied and asked just how important is actually being able to swim--not with fins--if some students don't ever do this in the course.

MoisesMoises
10-04-2012, 15:36
Swim goggles are useful whether your swimming habits are backyard recreational,swim team competitive or just an occasional trip to the ocean or lake.While swim caps and shaving directly contribute to decreased resistance in the water,swim goggles are typically worn for comfort and visual clarity more than aerodynamic benefits.

MoisesMoises
10-06-2012, 12:47
Swim goggles are useful whether your swimming habits are backyard recreational,swim team competitive or just an occasional trip to the ocean or lake.While swim caps and shaving directly contribute to decreased resistance in the water,swim goggles are typically worn for comfort and visual clarity more than aerodynamic benefits.
Take a look at:Semi Inground pools (http://www.poolfactoryonline.com/semi-inground-pools)

AfterDark
01-23-2014, 01:14
I really question the need for strong swimming skills these days other than the comfort level it brings to the individual, which in that resspect is very important. However if a person can be comfortable in the water with a wet suit top or some sort of shorty, something to give some flotation and propel themselves thru the water then IMO that’s enough.
It is unlikely in an emergency that a diver would remove their wet suit especially if they understand it is their last flotation assistance. So I think it’s fair to allow flotation assistance in that form. It is also my opinion that any diver tow should be done with both divers in full gear.
Back before we had auto inflators and SMBs, strong swimming skills were more essential, with today equipment not so much.

Tom H
01-23-2014, 21:39
I really question the need for strong swimming skills these days other than the comfort level it brings to the individual, which in that resspect is very important. However if a person can be comfortable in the water with a wet suit top or some sort of shorty, something to give some flotation and propel themselves thru the water then IMO that’s enough.
It is unlikely in an emergency that a diver would remove their wet suit especially if they understand it is their last flotation assistance. So I think it’s fair to allow flotation assistance in that form. It is also my opinion that any diver tow should be done with both divers in full gear.
Back before we had auto inflators and SMBs, strong swimming skills were more essential, with today equipment not so much.

Agree completely. My last post here was 3 posts and 6 YEARS ago-not much traffic, eh. But yeah, there could be a lot of changes in both the OW and DM swim tests. You can search for my suggestions in a place called "Going Pro". Having become a DM since, my new thing is I'd rather see an OW student swim ONE lap with a correct stroke than "tough out" 200 m/y any old way.

PyrateDiver
01-24-2014, 14:00
If you ski you should have some skill in the cold, if you sky dive some skill falling
diving, swimming skills = good

Zeagle Eagle
01-24-2014, 14:08
The swimming skill is for when a fun time turns into a bad time.

Tom H
01-24-2014, 19:41
If you ski you should have some skill in the cold, if you sky dive some skill falling
diving, swimming skills = good

Agree. Someone said swimming is a life skill. But what do you do to get falling skills?

AfterDark
01-25-2014, 04:09
The swimming skill is for when a fun time turns into a bad time.

So what bad times finds a diver without any flotation aids what so ever? Even back before auto inflators and BCDs the wet suit was always a failsafe. I suppose for those warm water divers that donít use a wetsuit at all swimming is more important than for a diver here in the NE where 5mm-7mm wetsuits are the norm. Iím not saying that swimming skills are un-necessary just that strong swimming skills arenít.
Itís not because I canít swim. I breezed thru the swim requirements of the diving course I took during 1960ís doing all but the last two laps face down. We were allowed 2 laps on our backs so I did the last 2 sculling on my back. When I got out of the pool I wasn't even winded. I swam the length of the pool underwater past the required stop point and scared the instructor who didnít see me climb out of the pool. He made me do it again. That time I swam to him, pinched his leg, continued to the end of the pool, turned around headed back towards the instructor and came up alongside him smiling, ďdid you see me that time or should I do it againĒ? Iím just an older A-hole than I used to be; I was 15 years old. J

PyrateDiver
01-25-2014, 11:49
Agree. Someone said swimming is a life skill. But what do you do to get falling skills?

Other than falling out of the attic and off some rocks I dont have any yet, but they just opened an indoor skydiving place down the road I plan to try, I will report back

Tom H
01-25-2014, 16:48
So what bad times finds a diver without any flotation aids what so ever? Even back before auto inflators and BCDs the wet suit was always a failsafe. I suppose for those warm water divers that don’t use a wetsuit at all swimming is more important than for a diver here in the NE where 5mm-7mm wetsuits are the norm. I’m not saying that swimming skills are un-necessary just that strong swimming skills aren’t.
It’s not because I can’t swim. I breezed thru the swim requirements of the diving course I took during 1960’s doing all but the last two laps face down. We were allowed 2 laps on our backs so I did the last 2 sculling on my back. When I got out of the pool I wasn't even winded. I swam the length of the pool underwater past the required stop point and scared the instructor who didn’t see me climb out of the pool. He made me do it again. That time I swam to him, pinched his leg, continued to the end of the pool, turned around headed back towards the instructor and came up alongside him smiling, “did you see me that time or should I do it again”? I’m just an older A-hole than I used to be; I was 15 years old. J
t
Agree. I've been asking for years for anyone to give a scenario where anyone (pro or not) would have to swim without fins. Some have mentioned falling overboard, etc. but that has nothing specifically related to scuba.

PyrateDiver
01-25-2014, 21:13
Nope that would drop into the falling category

AfterDark
01-30-2014, 13:13
Nope that would drop into the falling category

No boat safety, wear a PFD on boat.