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dutchman
09-27-2007, 19:05
Hi, my name is Dutchman. I am a Emergency Responder. May I help you?
I'm finished. Great class. Wish it where more scuba specific.:smiley19: I guess I will see more in Rescue class.:smiley17:

cummings66
09-28-2007, 17:29
It's great to see you here to help me, I need $10,000 cash right now, got it handy?

Seriously, I thought the skills they taught to be fine, although they don't jive with my Red Cross training you end up at the same point possibly a bit faster with maybe a bit more chance of error.

Still, good class to take. Glad you liked it and I'm sure you'll find rescue better yet.

Vercingetorix
09-29-2007, 01:49
Dutchman,

Did you take your EFR from a LDS? I took mine with ScubaToys and it was the NAUI EFR/CPR/AED/O2 class. It was very scuba-specific.

Hopefully, you'll have an opportunity to use the learning in Rescue. We used it in ours. In Rescue, you do not learn additional EFR/CPR skills; rather, you use them.

I also recommend that you take DAN O2, if it's available. That 3-hour course goes into far more detail and permits you to buy the DAN O2 kit and medical oxygen.

russp
12-05-2011, 12:54
I know this is an old thread but it came up on google when I was looking for a place to renew my CPR, AED and O2 cards to go along with my NAUI Rescue Diver card. The last time I asked at Scuba Toys, they offered the DAN O2 course but no longer the NAUI First Aid. Anyone know a place in the Dallas area that can do a refresher course for all three (CPR, AED and O2)? I know Red Cross and a lot of other groups do the CPR and AED but not the O2.

scubadiver888
12-05-2011, 20:31
Most PADI shops should have an O2 class. I know because I'm an O2 instructor (if I ever fill out my paperwork).

snagel
12-06-2011, 06:07
For my work, I'm required to have the EFR, 1st Aid, and CPR training. We just finished up with our annual training on this a couple weeks ago. At least around here, they changed up all the information again and the prices for the classes tripled. It's odd, but what we found all the agencies (American Red Cross, Heart Assoc, etc.) seem to be struggling to update all the training material.

For O2, I took a course with the local fire department. This worked out very well. They were able to customize a course for me to satisfy my needs at work as a first responder and since they new I was wanting this also for diving they talked about that as well.

Snagel

scubadiver888
12-06-2011, 07:08
Actually, the fire department is a good place to look. One of the dive shops I worked for had everything, AED, O2, CPR, 1st Aid, Secondary Care and more. The guy who taught the classes worked for a fire department in a neighbouring city. He'd teach fire departments during the day, Monday to Friday, and teach scuba divers on Saturday and Sunday. If the local fire department doesn't have training in-house you should see who they contract to do the work.

wheelman
12-06-2011, 11:32
Good tip about the fire departments. I'm due for a refresher and will see what they offer.

Davetowz
12-06-2011, 23:18
These are awesome classes to hit when the winter weather is keeping you away from diving. If it has been 3 yrs since you had a EFR/CPR/o2, ask. Other winter classes that rock are equipment specialties that get more into how to perform user level maintenance on your gear and EANX.

russp
12-07-2011, 00:25
I need to look into the fire department idea. The instructor at Scuba Toys who taught all three things along with NAUI first aid when I did rescue in 2009 was a local EMT. I'm really hoping to find a place or person who can update me on all three at the same time.

Noob
12-07-2011, 12:15
Dan O2 was one of the best classes I have taken to date. Rescue is probably the second. I like the Dan O2 because it goes into depth of why these things happen and not a brief overview.

russp
02-23-2012, 08:55
I know I'm restarting an older thread again but with most CPR classes teaching the new hands only approach, is there or should there be a scuba specific CPR program at the dive shops? I remember in rescue class there were times we were to give rescue breaths as we were towing someone back to shore; be pretty hard to do hands only CPR while floating on the surface.

scubadiver888
02-23-2012, 12:42
I know I'm restarting an older thread again but with most CPR classes teaching the new hands only approach, is there or should there be a scuba specific CPR program at the dive shops? I remember in rescue class there were times we were to give rescue breaths as we were towing someone back to shore; be pretty hard to do hands only CPR while floating on the surface.

I cannot speak for other agencies but PADI breaks things into multiple courses.


Emergency First Responder (EFR): this is very similar to St. John's Ambulance or Red Cross EFR.
Oxygen Provider: this is fairly scuba specific and should be taken from a scuba shop.
Rescue Diver: this course fills in the gaps that EFR left. Bringing a victim from depth, rescue breaths, getting someone out of the water, etc.


In other words, Rescue Diver teaches you how to get the victim to a location you can perform regular EFR. That said, I did learn a lot about scuba related injuries and how to deal with them in my EFR course (e.g. jellyfish stings).

russp
02-23-2012, 14:22
When I did NAUI rescue here in Carrollton, we first had to take the NAUI 1st aid (which included CPR and AED) and DAN o2 courses and then apply them in the rescue training. At the time, CPR included rescue breathing.

navyhmc
02-23-2012, 14:45
Being a CPR instructor from way-way-WAY back, I honsetly can not see a good way to even attempt effective CPR in the water. I just don't think it can be done. I believe you could do some poor resemblance of CPR but it would not be effective. In addition to being ineffective, it would definitely hinder getting the victim back to the boat or to shore so waiting until you're there to do actual compressions would still be the best course of action.

As for a SCUBA specific CPR course, I don't think one is needed. Rescue breaths, compressions, 911 activation etc is really the smae except for the clother that are really hard to get off the victim. Rescue breathing is still tought, just not part of the current lay public no pulse, no breathing scenario. They are now teaching compression only CPR but rescue breathing after there is a return of circulation but no breathing.

Even in EMS, we are looking at going to no ventilation CPR for the first 10 minutes of a code, just oxygen per non-rebreathing mask.

JLeFever
02-23-2012, 16:01
Waiting on my LDS to call me , so i can do my EFR this spring.
Then it's on to Rescue.
Can't wait, that class looks like so much fun.

Skred
02-23-2012, 17:05
I know I'm restarting an older thread again but with most CPR classes teaching the new hands only approach, is there or should there be a scuba specific CPR program at the dive shops? I remember in rescue class there were times we were to give rescue breaths as we were towing someone back to shore; be pretty hard to do hands only CPR while floating on the surface.

I just took the American Heart Association Heartsaver First Aid/CPR/AED course last month. With regards to hands only CPR, the course stressed that the traditional approach using compressions and rescue breaths was the preferred method but that hands only was perfectly acceptable if you weren't willing or able for whatever reason to administer rescue breaths.

There is no effective way to administer compressions in the water. I was taught in Rescue and DM training that rescue breaths could be administered in the water if warranted but that the immediate need is to get the victim out of the water so CPR can be employed.

FFDiver
02-23-2012, 18:42
As others have stated in water CPR would be ineffective. Getting a person out of the water the fastest way possible to start CPR is the best method. Everything is pretty much going to CPR only as most people do not have access to oxygen and it has been proven that get circulation is the best course of action as oxygen is still in the blood.
I do carry a medical oxygen cyliner with me along with some other essential items to have handy. I just hope I never have to use it at any point.

snagel
02-23-2012, 21:55
I'm the only one out of our 4 divers that has done the 02 (except wife was a nurse for 15 years). My buddy one day asked me to show him what to do with the thing just in case I'm the victim. Made me kinda think, hey I took the course to help others...what about me?

Snagel

scubadiver888
02-24-2012, 06:33
When I did NAUI rescue here in Carrollton, we first had to take the NAUI 1st aid (which included CPR and AED) and DAN o2 courses and then apply them in the rescue training. At the time, CPR included rescue breathing.

The PADI Rescue Diver requires you to have your EFR (first aid, secondary care, CPR, AED). There is a little knowledge of supplying oxygen but not the full blown O2 Provider which DAN and PADI provide.

I believe PADI breaks it into the three different parts (EFR, O2 Provider, Rescue Diver) because it makes sense. You need scuba knowledge to do Rescue Diver plus you need EFR. MANY people get EFR training from outside agencies like St. John's or Red Cross. If you don't have it, PADI will provide it but it doesn't make sense to make people take the PADI course if they already have the training.

The O2 Provider course is really overkill. If you want to be an O2 Provider you need the equipment and it needs to be serviced annually. This means servicing the regulator, dumping the oxygen, visual inspection, 5 year hydro, re-fill the cylinder annually (after the visual inspection). This is an added cost most aren't willing to bare.

In my area, if you go on a dive it is usually a boat dive. The boat crew have oxygen and training to use it (by law). If you are on a trip with a dive club or shop they usually bring oxygen and someone who knows how to use it. My shop teaches O2 Provider. If we go diving we bring the oxygen because we know we'll be dumping it if we don't use it by end of year.

I didn't get my O2 Provider until I became a DM. That is just because I might be the guy from the shop who brings the oxygen now.

Everything everyone else has said is true. I took my mandatory retraining last year and the emphasis was on getting them out of the water as fast as possible then doing compressions, more and faster. We were still taught to pause to give a breathe but now it is 100 compressions before a breathe.

Once you become a DM there is also a LOT of emphasis on trying to make sure you never need to use these skills. Prevent the accident before it happens. I have been fortunate so far and only had to use my training in non-dive related accidents.

scubadiver888
02-24-2012, 06:50
Being a CPR instructor from way-way-WAY back, I honsetly can not see a good way to even attempt effective CPR in the water. I just don't think it can be done. I believe you could do some poor resemblance of CPR but it would not be effective. In addition to being ineffective, it would definitely hinder getting the victim back to the boat or to shore so waiting until you're there to do actual compressions would still be the best course of action.

Actually, I was taught to not even bother with checking for a pulse. You pull someone out of 50F water (that is in the summer) or colder, getting your gloves off, getting to a point on them to get a pulse, trying to find a pulse while bobbing up in down in the water. Just not going to happen. Head for shore. Get his gear off while heading for shore so all the shore crew need to do is cut the suit off. I haven't done Rescue Diver for a few years now. I'm hopefully going to start assisting this summer. I assume rescue breaths are still taught.


As for a SCUBA specific CPR course, I don't think one is needed. Rescue breaths, compressions, 911 activation etc is really the smae except for the clother that are really hard to get off the victim. Rescue breathing is still tought, just not part of the current lay public no pulse, no breathing scenario. They are now teaching compression only CPR but rescue breathing after there is a return of circulation but no breathing.

:smiley36: Cutting a wetsuit off is a lot easier than getting the clothes off a construction worker. Most the guys here work rain or shine. Today is freezing rain with a snow storm later today. Saw the construction guys with 20 layers of clothing climbing the stairs on a condo building going up.


Even in EMS, we are looking at going to no ventilation CPR for the first 10 minutes of a code, just oxygen per non-rebreathing mask.

Really? I guess you are always working in pairs? I cannot imagine doing 100 compressions a minute for 10 minutes straight. Although, around here the fire department planned out all the fire stations so that they had a response time of 3 minutes or less. So I've always receive help within 3 minutes of someone calling 911.

Darrell

P.S. as I think of the last time I had to rescue someone I get upset and emotional. They should have some training for that.

navyhmc
02-24-2012, 11:44
Even in EMS, we are looking at going to no ventilation CPR for the first 10 minutes of a code, just oxygen per non-rebreathing mask.

Really? I guess you are always working in pairs? I cannot imagine doing 100 compressions a minute for 10 minutes straight. Although, around here the fire department planned out all the fire stations so that they had a response time of 3 minutes or less. So I've always receive help within 3 minutes of someone calling 911.

Darrell

P.S. as I think of the last time I had to rescue someone I get upset and emotional. They should have some training for that.

With American Heart Association, they do a review of CPR and Advanced Cardiac Life Support (ACLS) every 5 years, there's a lot of ongoing research and huge studies. They have found that the best outcomes are from early defibrillation, 911, CPR and ACLS in that order. They have found a direct correlation between good cpr and cardiac output that supports no ventilations for the first few minutes of CPR.

As far as emergency care providers, we have even changed our total response. We used to respond a fire squad (2 people) and EMS (2 people) and if available an EMS supervisor (doesn't seem to happen on a lot of my codes as they think "He's been around forever, he can handle it") So in the past 4-5 people to take care of a code. Now, we have not only a fire squad by an engine company as well so and additional 4-5 people. We switch compressors every 2 minutes with out fail. We also added a metronome set at 110 beats per minute to set the pace-let's face it, some folks sing "Stayin Alive" faster than others.

As for getting upset and emotional: You are right, they really don't teach or even give much if any information on how to deal with the emotional aspects of doing CPR, especially for the general public. A lot of adrenaline flows during these events and unfortunately, that actually causes a but of heightened awareness and recall of the situation-part of that old fight or flight response.

The best I can say is that as you have a flash back or get a little emotional about an incident, think about what the outcome would have been if you hadn't done what you did. Even if the outcome is not a good one (no recovery, victim deceased) You did what you could to try to better that outcome. In the best case scenario, return of a pulse happens in about 25% - 30% of the out of hospital cardiac arrest calls.

Also, emergency workers have a built in support systems for these types of calls. Lay public really doesn't. If you want to talk about it, shoot me a pm. (I'm trained in Critical Incident Debriefing)