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lovesmexico615
10-17-2007, 18:19
I'm looking to buy a dive computer, but am a bit overwhelmed. The Suunto Gekko was recommended to me, and I've heard mixed reviews. I've heard that the Suunto's are overly conservative, AND that they are not conservative at all, I'd like something that isn't overly conservative, because I can always adjust to be more conservative myself on times and such if I feel I need to. What would be a good computer for someone who will be doing cold and warm water diving, would like a wrist mount, and am still new to the sport?

Thanks!
Amanda

medic001918
10-17-2007, 22:57
I have a Suunto computer so far and haven't found it limiting. That being said, I haven't had the chance to do multiple dives over multiple days with it yet. Oceanic makes a decent product, their pro plus 2 is a great console. Aeris has some decent computers as well that won't break the bank. There are countless options out there for you to explore. If you don't do multiple dives over multiple days frequently, I'd be surprised if you find a computer being conservative limiting.

Really, it depends on what kind of diving you plan to do as to what would be the best option to use.

Shane

Zenagirl
10-18-2007, 07:21
On all 3 of our liveaboard trips (and a couple of 3-tank charters)we've seen divers who have to severely modify or even sit out dives due to their Suunto computers. We prefer less conservative (but within the tables) so that we can control how conservative we choose to dive. That's why we chose Oceanic/Aeris products.

ianr33
10-18-2007, 07:38
I have used an Aeris computer for years and would recommend them.
Surface with the bar graph nudging the red and you will be diving very aggressively (NOT recommended) Always keep it in the green and it will be conservative (but sensibly so IMHO)

Dive it up to the NDL's then do a good long safety stop until it goes into the green (might be as much as 10-15 minutes) you will get long dives and still be unlikely to get bent. (never any absolute gaurantee about that!! )

Just make sure you have enough gas for you and your buddy for a lengthy safety stop in the event of a gear failure.

BobbyWombat
10-18-2007, 08:00
Scuba Diving magazine has done a bunch of DC tests to see if they are conservative vs. less conservative.

The Suunto computers consistently come out on the conservative side. Oceanic makes some great computers that have all of the features you would find in a Suunto, for less money. You can dial in more conservatism, if you prefer. I dive with a VEO250 and love it. There is another thread about the VEO 250 in the computers forum that you might enjoy reading.

I'd browse ST and check out the Oceanic/Aeris computers. (Oceanic and Aeris have the same guts, just a different display.....kinda like Chevy vs. GMC....if I understand correctly).

-BW

reservecops
10-18-2007, 08:30
Oceanic Veo 180 is a reasonably priced, simple yet full-featured computer that is nitrox compat, audible alarm, and can be paired with the download cable (stores 150 dives) to make life easy.

Aussie
10-18-2007, 10:09
On all 3 of our liveaboard trips (and a couple of 3-tank charters)we've seen divers who have to severely modify or even sit out dives due to their Suunto computers. We prefer less conservative (but within the tables) so that we can control how conservative we choose to dive. That's why we chose Oceanic/Aeris products.

Thats interesting.

On the Liveaboards which I have been on I have had no issues with the conservatism of my Suunto's. Bear in mind that on the liveaboards I always dive on nitrox and I am normally the first in and last out.

I will have to see how things go in Vanuatu next month when I be doing alot of deep dives (down to 215fsw) and compare other divers computers.

Aussie

Aussie
10-18-2007, 10:12
Also would it be a good idea to recommend an aggressive (less conservative) computer to a new diver?

Aussie

robjoubert
10-18-2007, 11:01
Also would it be a good idea to recommend an aggressive (less conservative) computer to a new diver?

Aussie
Aussie, good comment BUT when I purchase a computer I will get one that I can use for a long time. I cannot afford to get a conservative computer and then another less conservative computer when I get more experienced.

I just want to get the best DC I can afford!!!

RoadRacer1978
10-18-2007, 11:08
True. Buying a less conservative computer does not mean you have to dive it to its limits. I like the ability to choose for myself and not have a conservative computer make the choice for me. I am usually very conservative, but if and when I decide to venture out a little more I don't want my computer saying no if it is within reasonable limits.

CompuDude
10-18-2007, 11:32
Also would it be a good idea to recommend an aggressive (less conservative) computer to a new diver?

Aussie

Here's the funny thing. Suunto (and other makers of known conservative computers) don't have a better safety record than Oceanic.

Decompression is a VERY imprecise science. If the numbers were backing up Suunto I'd be first in line. But they're not. If they were, I can guarantee you they would be in every single advertisement.

In light of this (and the many, many, many tests that have shown Suunto's conservative algorithm compared to Oceanic and others), I choose more bottom time, since there is NO indication that there is any measurable increase in risk.

This sport is very expensive and takes a LOT of preparation for a fairly short amount of time actually enjoying a dive. Loading the car with tons of heavy gear, getting to the site, gearing up, (surface intervals), gearing down, re-loading the car, unloading the car, and washing the gear all take a LOT longer than the pitiful amount of bottom time we get for all that time, hassle and money. And yet that's the part where you actually get to enjoy yourself the most. I want every possible minute down there... and Suunto does not deliver that to me.

RoadRacer1978
10-18-2007, 11:34
Also would it be a good idea to recommend an aggressive (less conservative) computer to a new diver?

Aussie

Here's the funny thing. Suunto (and other makers of known conservative computers) don't have a better safety record than Oceanic.

Decompression is a VERY imprecise science. If the numbers were backing up Suunto I'd be first in line. But they're not. If they were, I can guarantee you they would be in every single advertisement.

In light of this (and the many, many, many tests that have shown Suunto's conservative algorithm compared to Oceanic and others), I choose more bottom time, since there is NO indication that there is any measurable increase in risk.

This sport is very expensive and takes a LOT of preparation for a fairly short amount of time actually enjoying a dive. Loading the car with tons of heavy gear, getting to the site, gearing up, (surface intervals), gearing down, re-loading the car, unloading the car, and washing the gear all take a LOT longer than the pitiful amount of bottom time we get for all that time, hassle and money. And yet that's the part where you actually get to enjoy yourself the most. I want every possible minute down there... and Suunto does not deliver that to me.


All very good points as usual Compudude!:smiley20:

Netsloth
10-18-2007, 11:52
I second the Oceanic/Aeris nods. I dive a VT3. If I want it to be more conservative, I can change a setting to make it so.

I looked at the Suunto line when I was buying, chose Oceanic based on diver feedback.

dallasdivergirl
10-18-2007, 11:57
I would have to recommend the Veo-180 as well. I just did a week of diving in blue water and it was very good with my bottom time.

Defman
10-18-2007, 12:21
(Oceanic and Aeris have the same guts, just a different display.....kinda like Chevy vs. GMC....if I understand correctly).

-BW



The Sherwood Wisdom (currently on sale) is also made by Pelagic. I just picked up a used (3 dives!!) series 1 for a sweet deal, I like it a lot although I only have one dive on it...

BobbyWombat
10-18-2007, 14:12
I would have to recommend the Veo-180 as well. I just did a week of diving in blue water and it was very good with my bottom time.

Yeah, I like the VEO series. Decided to go with the VEO250 because I liked that it had two buttons. A bit more convenient when cycling through the functions.

I'll admit I'm a sucker for instant gratification. :smiley20:

Zenagirl
10-18-2007, 14:57
Remember as well that ALL the computers we're talking about (Oceanic, aeris, Suunto, Sherwood) all have algorithyms that keep a diver within the recreational dive tables. It doesn't matter what kind of computer a diver has if they choose to check their brains at the dock.

We were on a charter last year with a diver who was diving with a Suunto. He wasn't in our dive group and had splashed in first. His group went back to the boat about 5 minutes before ours, and when we got back on the boat, all we heard was a computer SCREAMING a violation. When I remarked about it, the captain commented that the guy had blown through a deco obligation and the computer had been beeping for well over 5 minutes already.

Not only had the diver gone into deco, but he apparently hadn't even bothered to do a safety stop (they're optional, right??)!! To top it off when the crew told him he was done diving for the day, he actually argued! First he said he would take the battery out of the computer to clear it, then he tried to say he could borrow one from the crew!! The captain stepped in to "educate" this guy, and apparently during our dive really "tuned him up". He was ultimately invited not to return if he: a) couldn't learn how to use his computer; b) couldn't follow the directions of the boat crew; c) went into deco again whether it be accidental or intentional; and d) if he was ever going to argue with the captain again.

And if you're wondering if they would have benched anyone who went into deco., they wouldn't. I went into deco twice diving with them and cleared my (less than 2 min) obligation both times, extending my deco/safety stop to bring my computer down to 1 yellow bar prior to boarding the boat. They were aware of both instances since I told them when it happened.

Aussie
10-18-2007, 19:24
Also would it be a good idea to recommend an aggressive (less conservative) computer to a new diver?

Aussie

Here's the funny thing. Suunto (and other makers of known conservative computers) don't have a better safety record than Oceanic.

Decompression is a VERY imprecise science. If the numbers were backing up Suunto I'd be first in line. But they're not. If they were, I can guarantee you they would be in every single advertisement.

In light of this (and the many, many, many tests that have shown Suunto's conservative algorithm compared to Oceanic and others), I choose more bottom time, since there is NO indication that there is any measurable increase in risk.

This sport is very expensive and takes a LOT of preparation for a fairly short amount of time actually enjoying a dive. Loading the car with tons of heavy gear, getting to the site, gearing up, (surface intervals), gearing down, re-loading the car, unloading the car, and washing the gear all take a LOT longer than the pitiful amount of bottom time we get for all that time, hassle and money. And yet that's the part where you actually get to enjoy yourself the most. I want every possible minute down there... and Suunto does not deliver that to me.

G'day Compudude,

I haven't seen any information on the safety record of Oceanic compared to other brands to make comment. If you can send or post the information that would be appreciated.

As you said Decompression and Desatuation is a very imprecise science. I posted a thread in this forum about comparing algorithms of different computers and recieved one reply with a conservatism test on a range of computer algorithms. This test was do a few years ago and it showed Suunto as the most conservative. It also showed technical computers like the Delta VR3 to be on the conservative side also. The test was two square profile dry dives to 30msw for 15min with a surface interval of 1:49.

It still left me asking more questions in comparing algorithms/computers:

multi level dives
multi level and multiple dives a day
multi level, multiple dive per day over several days (liveaboard effect)
comparison of Desatuation after different time lengths
ascent voilation effectsAgain I havnt seen all these many tests you are referring too. If you can post them too that would be appreciated.

It comes down to me wanting to know more about a very important diving subject which I havnt recieved a fulfilling answer too. I believe it would also be important for new divers as well as experienced divers to know exactly how their dive computer algorithm works and how its works in the field.

Sorry "But it gives me more bottom time" does not cut it for me.

Any information would be appreciated.

Aussie

Aussie
10-18-2007, 19:43
Remember as well that ALL the computers we're talking about (Oceanic, aeris, Suunto, Sherwood) all have algorithyms that keep a diver within the recreational dive tables. It doesn't matter what kind of computer a diver has if they choose to check their brains at the dock.

We were on a charter last year with a diver who was diving with a Suunto. He wasn't in our dive group and had splashed in first. His group went back to the boat about 5 minutes before ours, and when we got back on the boat, all we heard was a computer SCREAMING a violation. When I remarked about it, the captain commented that the guy had blown through a deco obligation and the computer had been beeping for well over 5 minutes already.

Not only had the diver gone into deco, but he apparently hadn't even bothered to do a safety stop (they're optional, right??)!! To top it off when the crew told him he was done diving for the day, he actually argued! First he said he would take the battery out of the computer to clear it, then he tried to say he could borrow one from the crew!! The captain stepped in to "educate" this guy, and apparently during our dive really "tuned him up". He was ultimately invited not to return if he: a) couldn't learn how to use his computer; b) couldn't follow the directions of the boat crew; c) went into deco again whether it be accidental or intentional; and d) if he was ever going to argue with the captain again.

And if you're wondering if they would have benched anyone who went into deco., they wouldn't. I went into deco twice diving with them and cleared my (less than 2 min) obligation both times, extending my deco/safety stop to bring my computer down to 1 yellow bar prior to boarding the boat. They were aware of both instances since I told them when it happened.

I am glad you have seen these brainless acts.

I have seen divers turn the dive computers into nitrox mode while diving on air. Their comments where "my computer is very conservative in air mode"????????:smiley29:
They happened to go up 10 minutes before everyone else cleared their deco obligations.

Seen a diver which went into deco cause she set her computer to Altitude and didnt know how she did it.

People that wanted to do an afternoon deep dive before they fly out in the next morning. This is after they have been on a liveaboard for a week of deep dives. They didnt know what Desat meant.

Divers tying off computers at 5m so it can do its safety stop by itself as they have racked up a bit of deco.

Divers with mutiple diver computers. One they dive with until it gets conservative then they swap over to the spare fresh computer. I have seen this on liveaboards it happens at about day 3-4 on a 7 day trip.

It goes back to response "It gives me more bottom time"........

Aussie

Zenagirl
10-19-2007, 07:45
You're absolutely right Aussie, diving with a computer doesn't mean you check your brain at the door. There are fools and idiots everywhere.

BobbyWombat
10-19-2007, 21:29
I'm under the impression that the algorithms found in the diving computers are pretty well guarded business sensitive information. They aren't going to let the details of thier development $$ out into the hands of competitors.

So, the best that can be done is to take the computers for a ride in a chamber on a simulated dive, and see what they say. Personally, I don't have the time or inclination to get smart enough to understand one Algorithm vs. another...so even if I had access to this stuff, I think it would be way above my head.

If you want liberal, get an Oceanic, if you want conservative, get a Suunto, if you want really conservative, I have an egg timer I'd be happy to sell you.

ianr33
10-20-2007, 10:42
It comes down to me wanting to know more about a very important diving subject which I havnt recieved a fulfilling answer too. I believe it would also be important for new divers as well as experienced divers to know exactly how their dive computer algorithm works and how its works in the field.
Aussie

This is what I would suggest,but it is neither cheap or quick.

Take an Advanced Nitrox/deco course. (Or Tech1 if you prefer) Learn about deco theory and current bubble models. Buy a copy of V-Planner and play with it for hours (more fun than Video games ! )

Having done that myself I now know a few things about my Aeris computer.
1)It is VERY aggressive compared to V-Planner. Surfacing with it nudging the red is a very bad idea IMHO
2)It knows nothing about Deep Stops . That is to be expected from a computer that uses a modified haldanean algorithm.

I will now use my computer rather than tables for dives that have no more than about 10 minutes deco indicated on the computer. I DO NOT follow the computers suggestions for deco however.
Lets say I do a dive to 120 feet for 20 minutes on air.Computer will probably be asking for about a 10 minute stop at 10 feet. (Guessing here)
I will do my first stop for a minute at 60 feet (2 ATM less than my max depth) then maybe 1@50, 2@40, 4@30, hang out at 20 feet until the computer goes out of deco,ascend to 10 feet and wait for it to go green.Total deco time will probably be around 25 minutes. Probably more conservative than needed but thats fine with me.

The point here is that the computer is a tool. Dive sensible profiles and let the computer track them.Dont trust it implicitly.

The computer would be OK with a dive where you descend to 150 feet,immediately ascend to 10 feet at 30 feet/min,repeat the descents and ascents until it goes into deco,ascend to 10 feet until it just clears then surface. Add in cold water and a ripping current and I can pretty much gaurentee you will get bent.

somewhereinla
10-20-2007, 10:52
I have had both Suunto and Aeris/Oceanic and even though Suunto is more conservative it's really a matter of splitting air in my opinion as 99.9% of people won't notice, certainly not someone with less than 25 dives logged...

lovesmexico615
10-20-2007, 11:03
Thanks for the input guys. I'm looking to make an investment in a piece of equipment here that will last me for a while. I understand all the concerns of suggesting an aggressive computer to a new diver, however, I like the idea of being able to dive more conservatively than my computer suggests as I feel I still need more experience, and understanding about the science of diving. I don't want to spend the money on a computer now that in a year when I take a Nitrox class, or do multiple dives over several days won't work the way I would like it to.

Thanks for the input!
Amanda

ianr33
10-20-2007, 11:29
One of the things I really like about Aeris/Oceanic computers is the green/yellow/red bar graph for N2 loading.

As a new diver keep it in the Green.
More experience and a good understanding of gas planning,push it into the yellow.
Deco training and carrying lots of gas,let it go a few minutes into the red.

Easy and very adaptable.