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Bryanmc
10-21-2007, 19:27
My wife finally decided to get certified so she could share the adventure. Got her enrolled in a PADI OW course with the LDS. She gets through her pool and classroom without a hitch. Comes time for her OW dives and she's sick as a dog on that weekend... no problem, these things happen. She calls to reschedule her divesfor the following weekend and learns that her instructor (the only one at the LDS she's working with) has had ALL of his certs pulled by PADI, NAUI and every other agency due to a prior felony conviction. He offered to give her a referral and when she asked if it would cost her anything to finish with another LDS / instructor he said "yeah, probably"... I forgot to mention, she's already paid in full. So back to the original question.... What would you do?

DivingsInMyBlood
10-21-2007, 19:32
That just sucks, seems like the referrals the way to go in my view, some people just have all the bad luck.

mitsuguy
10-21-2007, 19:58
demand all of the money back...

he's not able to fulfill his contract (verbal even) with you, so you should get your money back...

RoadRacer1978
10-21-2007, 20:01
I'd demand my money back or at the very least instore credit for the cost of the cert. if I took the referral.

Bryanmc
10-21-2007, 20:09
My feeling is that he should pay any further costs incurred for her to get certified. I personally can't beleive he didn't just offer up a full refund.

ReefHound
10-21-2007, 20:27
If the class was booked through a shop then it is the shop's responsibility to provide you with the complete class or to refund your money. The shop is going to have to hire another instructor anyway if they are to remain in business. Or is this some indie instructor running the "shop" from his garage?

I wasn't aware that a felony conviction was a bar to being an instructor.

No Misses
10-21-2007, 20:30
He was representing the LDS. The LDS should make it right. Period.

Bryanmc
10-21-2007, 20:40
The instructor was also the owner of the LDS. As far as this conviction... I can understand the agencies wanting to distance themselves....

BobArnold8265
10-21-2007, 20:53
Did you happen to pay by credit card ??? If so contact your credit card company, they should be able to get your money back. If not, demand your money back or at least in store credit. Threaten legal action if you must. It's a shame this guy is the owner of the shop. That does make it a lot harder.

ReefHound
10-21-2007, 21:01
So is he out of business? If not, demand to receive what you paid for. Small claims court if he doesn't comply or refund the class fee.

frankc420
10-21-2007, 21:59
I would hope you get a refund. I'm not even sure a referral would work in this case as he is not an instructor anymore!?

Steve Scuba
10-22-2007, 00:21
That's a tough situation. I think I would demand a refund and a referral. The problem I would worry about is whether his referral would be worth anyhting, given that he's had his status revoked.

WV Diver
10-22-2007, 05:10
Call PADI asap and they will work it out for you. In the mean time a phone call to your credit card company is a good idea. Let them know your situation and they will defer payment until things are worked out.

JCAT
10-22-2007, 06:45
My wife finally decided to get certified so she could share the adventure. Got her enrolled in a PADI OW course with the LDS. She gets through her pool and classroom without a hitch. Comes time for her OW dives and she's sick as a dog on that weekend... no problem, these things happen. She calls to reschedule her divesfor the following weekend and learns that her instructor (the only one at the LDS she's working with) has had ALL of his certs pulled by PADI, NAUI and every other agency due to a prior felony conviction. He offered to give her a referral and when she asked if it would cost her anything to finish with another LDS / instructor he said "yeah, probably"... I forgot to mention, she's already paid in full. So back to the original question.... What would you do?

I'm not an instructor, but I would like to know more from those that are, work for an LDS, or DMs. Maybe Larry or Joe can address.

Why would PADI, NAUI, ect pull an instructors certs over a prior felony conviction?
and if it was prior, how were PADI, NAUI ect. informed?

I mean to say, that unless its diving related of course, what kind of felony was it?
Granted, a felony conviction is not a good thing, but there are some questionable (IMHO) laws that will earn one a felony conviction.

Sorry to hear about the problem and hope it gets fixed.

Nope, I don't have any charges or convictions, just curious.

RoadRacer1978
10-22-2007, 08:40
I was not aware you could get you instructor qualifications pulled for a felony conviction either. You could receive a conviction for bad checks and get a felony, but that would not necessarily make you a bad instructor.

ReefHound
10-22-2007, 08:51
There are and all instructors know about it, check the PADI Instructor Application (http://sierradive.com/docs/10500_InstAppl_v205.pdf)

RoadRacer1978
10-22-2007, 09:03
I understand and agree that any criminal conviction on my part involving abuse of a minor or sexual abuse of an adult occurring either during or prior to my membership with PADI, will be automatic grounds for denial or termination of my PADI Membership. (Taken from PADI instructor application)



Ok, so as I read it there are only 2 offenses that they will revoke your instructor qual for. Abuse of a child and sexual abuse of an adult.
Interesting, but I really had thought narcotics violations might be one of the violations.

danielh03
10-22-2007, 09:59
So maybe that tells you a little something about the instructor.... I would persue legal actions with in 3 weeks of the violation. Many states have different laws concerning that statute of limitations. Check with your local county clerk

RoadRacer1978
10-22-2007, 10:22
Yep, that tells you alot about that instructor. Could be a mistake, but probably not.

JCAT
10-22-2007, 12:51
I understand and agree that any criminal conviction on my part involving abuse of a minor or sexual abuse of an adult occurring either during or prior to my membership with PADI, will be automatic grounds for denial or termination of my PADI Membership. (Taken from PADI instructor application)



Ok, so as I read it there are only 2 offenses that they will revoke your instructor qual for. Abuse of a child and sexual abuse of an adult.
Interesting, but I really had thought narcotics violations might be one of the violations.

I read the same way. I wonder what state this in and if the instructor is listed as a convicted sex criminal on the state governments web site?

South Carolina has one, not sure if other states do.

So, PADI does periodic background checks? Or is this a recent activity and PADI happened to pick up on it?

interesting....I wonder why these are the only two felonies that will get your teaching credentials pulled?

RoadRacer1978
10-22-2007, 13:02
I think most state, and counties have a registered sex offender website. This could be how PADI found out, or maybe he ticked someone off and they turned him in. Don't know how it happened, but at least PADI is willing to take action as from other stories it seemed like PADI was in it for the money and didn't care what the instructor did as long as they stayed current.

webwidejosh
10-22-2007, 13:33
Credit card dispute. I would offer them as little information as possible to file the dispute. I've done this a number of times.

"The dive shop failed to provide me with the service I paid for."

That is the entire dispute you need to make. At that point any good bank would credit your account until the merchant showed they did in fact provide the service.

JCAT
10-22-2007, 13:39
I think most state, and counties have a registered sex offender website. This could be how PADI found out, or maybe he ticked someone off and they turned him in. Don't know how it happened, but at least PADI is willing to take action as from other stories it seemed like PADI was in it for the money and didn't care what the instructor did as long as they stayed current.

Thats an excellent point!

tbuckalew
10-22-2007, 14:52
First - you must show that you made an attempt to rectify the situation with the other party (in this case the LDS owner/instructor). Simply state that you paid for services to be provided and that he is required to fulfill those services. If he is unable to fulfill the services paid for, he must either make arrangements (at his cost) for completion of your training, or refund an adequate amount of your payment to complete the services at another location.

If he fails to work with you on the situation, the next step is to contact PADI and notify them of your situation in order to see where you stand in their eyes of certification (in other words, does your training before the cert pull still count). They may be able to work with you on this.

Next, THEN you should contact your credit card company and notify them of the situation and that you attempted to come to an agreement with the LDS/Instructor and his response. At that time, the card issuer can initiate action that will probably not be reversed (meaning you will be charged again).

Be sure to act quickly on the entire situation due to limitations and laws in your specific area.

Bryanmc
10-22-2007, 19:01
Roadracer.... I think most people read past the part that says PADI "membership" on that blurb from the instructor application. They not only pulled his INST and DM, they threw him out completely... he's not even a certified diver in their orginazation anymore (nor NAUI or anyone else as far as I know).

Anne Eastwell
10-22-2007, 19:12
The LDS has the responsibility to complete her training. If she changes instructors by her own choice midway then of course she'd be up for new costs, but this doesn't sound like it's the case.

I also wouldn't have thought a felony conviction was a bar to being a dive instructor.... maybe some of you instructors can enlighten us as to whether this is the case or not?

Bryanmc
10-22-2007, 19:49
Anne... Read back through the thread. All your questions are answered.

UCFKnightDiver
10-23-2007, 12:28
hmmm not even certified thats a little much he should not have his aow or ow takin away from him, or maybe i missed something...?

CompuDude
10-23-2007, 14:13
Roadracer.... I think most people read past the part that says PADI "membership" on that blurb from the instructor application. They not only pulled his INST and DM, they threw him out completely... he's not even a certified diver in their orginazation anymore (nor NAUI or anyone else as far as I know).

They can revoke his membership (read: professional status), but no one can take away your personal OW/AOW/Rescue certification card (at least, not from PADI or NAUI, GUE is another story). That's a lifetime card, indicating you successfully completed the requirements for that level of knowledge. Committing a crime down the road does not mean you didn't pass those requirements in the past.

DZorn00
10-23-2007, 14:14
Sorry to hear about your troubles. The LDS should be responsible for taking care of you but as others have said you must take care of it very quickly.

RoadRacer1978
10-23-2007, 14:29
Roadracer.... I think most people read past the part that says PADI "membership" on that blurb from the instructor application. They not only pulled his INST and DM, they threw him out completely... he's not even a certified diver in their orginazation anymore (nor NAUI or anyone else as far as I know).

I was unaware that an orginazation like PADI or NAUI had the ability to revoke someones certification as a diver. I understand they can revoke their level as an instructor, but how can they be told you no longer have the privelage dive.

Is there alot more to this story that the instructor has told you? I would really like to know what has happened in their particular situation just out of curosity now.

Bryanmc
10-23-2007, 15:31
The part about the certifications being pulled was told to me by the shop's DM. He was told by the instructor involved.

Bryanmc
10-24-2007, 19:32
So here's the offer I got on my phone today... referral and $100 refund on the $250 charged price. I still don't know what the other instructors here locally ar going to charge to do the referral dives....

webwidejosh
10-24-2007, 19:36
So here's the offer I got on my phone today... referral and $100 refund on the $250 charged price. I still don't know what the other instructors here locally ar going to charge to do the referral dives....

It sounds like you've had a real hassle with this, but if $100 covers the referral it doesn't sound like a horrible deal. However, if it was a credit card charged expense I'd say dispute the whole thing.

If she feels she got the benefit of the training to date and you can get a referral at a place she trusts, I'd just get it done and go on to certified diving!

The question is, will the certifying agency or the new shop accept what she has done to date. I'd verify that before taking the deal.

DZorn00
10-25-2007, 12:26
You should definately find out is what you have done so far is going to be counted. Otherwise the deal doesn't sound so good any way. Make sure the new LDS does not charge you again for materials too.

mitsuguy
10-25-2007, 12:36
I agree with the last two posts... I honestly think I'd take advantage of it a little, dispute the charge and go somewhere and start fresh... I know the pool stuff is kinda mundane, but hell, why not - the more experience the better...

Bryanmc
10-25-2007, 20:07
I'm still waiting to hear fromn the other instructors. If the refund covers the referral dives I'll take it and be good. If not, there's gonna be a problem....

Puffer Fish
10-25-2007, 20:31
Roadracer.... I think most people read past the part that says PADI "membership" on that blurb from the instructor application. They not only pulled his INST and DM, they threw him out completely... he's not even a certified diver in their orginazation anymore (nor NAUI or anyone else as far as I know).

I was unaware that an orginazation like PADI or NAUI had the ability to revoke someones certification as a diver. I understand they can revoke their level as an instructor, but how can they be told you no longer have the privelage dive.

Is there alot more to this story that the instructor has told you? I would really like to know what has happened in their particular situation just out of curosity now.
I would think they could remove you from their list, which means you would still have the certs, unless you lost them.

I am still shocked that the shop/person did not make arrangements for the cert to be completed...It sure was not her fault that he got in trouble. I would be taking every possible recourse I could think of.

IrishSquid
11-25-2007, 11:02
I understand and agree that any criminal conviction on my part involving abuse of a minor or sexual abuse of an adult occurring either during or prior to my membership with PADI, will be automatic grounds for denial or termination of my PADI Membership. (Taken from PADI instructor application)

I read the same way. I wonder what state this in and if the instructor is listed as a convicted sex criminal on the state governments web site?

South Carolina has one, not sure if other states do.

So, PADI does periodic background checks? Or is this a recent activity and PADI happened to pick up on it?

interesting....I wonder why these are the only two felonies that will get your teaching credentials pulled?
I realize this has been dormant for a month, BUT;
Abuse of a child does not automatically mean "sex offender". In quite a few states, if you use corporal punishment in public you can be convicted of "Child Abuse". My son was cited at a local festival along with 200 other festival goers, by an overzealous group of officials for indecent exposure. Over a period of 3 days, they had made trips into the woods to urinate as the festival was short on "port-o-johns". The offenders were arrested by waiting law enforcement as they came back out of the woods.The judge threw out all cases citing, "Give me a break, this is the south and every citizen would be guilty. No one had complained, and the officers had not technically observed anything". Had they been found guilty, my son would have had to register as a sex offender, as indecent exposure is a sex crime in some states. I'm just curious what the Instructor's offense was. The above is just to illustrate, not all is as it seems. The Law, and policies of organizations need to account for the gray areas. IMHO:smiley29:

Mtrewyn
11-25-2007, 11:21
I realize this has been dormant for a month, BUT;
Abuse of a child does not automatically mean "sex offender". In quite a few states, if you use corporal punishment in public you can be convicted of "Child Abuse". My son was cited at a local festival along with 200 other festival goers, by an overzealous group of officials for indecent exposure. Over a period of 3 days, they had made trips into the woods to urinate as the festival was short on "port-o-johns". The offenders were arrested by waiting law enforcement as they came back out of the woods.The judge threw out all cases citing, "Give me a break, this is the south and every citizen would be guilty. No one had complained, and the officers had not technically observed anything". Had they been found guilty, my son would have had to register as a sex offender, as indecent exposure is a sex crime in some states. I'm just curious what the Instructor's offense was. The above is just to illustrate, not all is as it seems. The Law, and policies of organizations need to account for the gray areas. IMHO:smiley29:[/quote]


There was a HS senior that mooned some people on the road, well guess what one of them was a cop and now he has to register as a "sex offender" for the rest of his life, I know that it is messed up but it would be hard to weed out the minor from the major, that could be a nightmare,

My question would be this, in less it was a recent offense, what about the people he certified? If he was never an instructor?...than what about his students?

Bryanmc
11-25-2007, 14:33
Just for clarification, this is the section of the California penal code he was convicted under:
288. (a) Any person who willfully and lewdly commits any lewd or
lascivious act, including any of the acts constituting other crimes
provided for in Part 1, upon or with the body, or any part or member
thereof, of a child who is under the age of 14 years, with the intent
of arousing, appealing to, or gratifying the lust, passions, or
sexual desires of that person or the child, is guilty of a felony and
shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for three,
six, or eight years. I don't see too much grey area there.

According to the shop, any certs he did prior to being notified by PADI are valid. Any submitted after the notify dates will be rejected.

We shall see...