PDA

View Full Version : Swim tests for certification



Cichlid
07-18-2007, 07:04
Are they done with fins on or no?

Vercingetorix
07-18-2007, 07:28
No fins

przeor
07-18-2007, 07:33
I think PADI gives you the choice of a 200m swim or 300m snorkel which I thought was with mask/snorkel/fins, but perhaps I am mistaken?

DDGator
07-18-2007, 07:45
SSI swim test was no gear -- no fins, no wet suit -- for both swim test and treading water test.

ertechsg
07-18-2007, 11:28
no fins, no time limit

jacewindu
07-18-2007, 11:37
mine was weird - they made us swim around the deep end of the pool instead of doing laps which would have been much faster & easier
(i'm a former swimmer)
but nevertheless it was fun doing it sort of like a "track"

cummings66
07-18-2007, 18:34
Yeah,that's odd. How could they tell how much distance you've done?
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>At any rate, most agencies have a fin/wetsuit option if you need it. I don't think it's right to take that route.</DIV>

Cichlid
07-18-2007, 20:14
I think that there shouldn't be an option either. I was just thinking with fins on, the test would be waaay too easy.

tc_rain
07-18-2007, 21:24
As of 2 years ago,PADI did allow you to do a 300m snorkel with mask and fins or a 200m swim. Most instructors pushed for the 200m though.

Moxie
07-19-2007, 17:35
I think that having a basic level of swimming ability is really one of the fundamentals of diving. You have to be able to stand up before you can run right?

TAH 73
07-19-2007, 19:11
In the course I just did there was both, a 10min tread water with no gear, a swim with no gear, and a longer snorkel swim.
<DIV>The course was a Padi/IANTD combined, with most of the students doing the Padi, myself I my Fiancee and I doing a dual cert.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>

cyclical
07-19-2007, 22:17
Padi for me 6 years ago let us do 300 m with fins, mask and snorkel.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Or 200 m (or so) no time limit, and swimming/floating however you wanted to. </DIV>

Judestudio
07-21-2007, 07:33
Did my OW with SSI. 200m swim - no time limit, any style you want, just need to complete 200m somehow. Also need to float for 10 minutes, again anyway you want - tread or just float on your back.

TommyB
07-21-2007, 09:46
Naui,

Pool Swim any stroke you want to use (no fins / mask)
Underwater, take a couple breaths, then under you go, across and 1/2 back.
then 10 min tread or float.

Just using swimsuit, no mask, fins, etc...
I think Patrick made me do the underwater part just to see if I could due to me being 47 and one of those nasty smokers :)

tc_rain
07-21-2007, 11:54
The swim is really easy since you can use any stroke and it is not timed. Heck, you can float on your back and kick your feet. It will take a while but it does meet the standards set forth by PADI.

cummings66
07-22-2007, 16:13
I once asked about the swim requirements and I know I can swim well. I'm pretty confident I could pass the Gue swim test in fact. However, if you told me to pick another hobby because I wanted to know what I was facing I'd have been insulted because you made the assumption I can't swim when in fact I can. I want to know the requirements of any test I'm going to take to assess my direction of training.
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>In other words, where am I weak and what can I do to improve it.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>To be honest, for me I asked because I had hurt my shoulder pretty good and was not sure if I could do a timed swim at that time, why take the course if I know from the start I can't do it? Since it wasn't times I knew I could swim it even with one arm not doing it's share of the work.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I'm better now, and probaby swimming 10 times faster than I did that day. I knew how to swim then, I just didn't know if it had a time value I needed to pass.</DIV>

TommyB
07-22-2007, 16:29
No time limits.
Only timer is that you're supposed to tread/float water for 10 mins.
(naui)

tc_rain
07-22-2007, 20:36
No time limits.
Only timer is that you're supposed to tread/float water for 10 mins.
(naui)

<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Same with PADI</DIV>

Lucky(AR)
07-22-2007, 23:26
my ow swim test was with no gear at all

Ajuva
07-23-2007, 14:42
You thought yours was bad, This is the requirements for the Scottish Sub Aqua Club BEFORE you get to dive!!!
<DIV>Now you see why I went for a PADI qualification.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Sorry for the length of the post.</DIV>
<DIV>Training Schedule</DIV>
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">All surface work to be completed on the spectator side of the pool. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Watermanship [/B](<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">For safety reasons no over arm strokes or diving in at any time please[/B])<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">1. Swim 6 lengths freestyle 50m pool(except crawl or backstroke) without stopping. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">2. Swim 3 lengths on the back. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">3. Swim 1 lengths wearing maximum 5kg weight belt. 3kg if of slender build. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">4. Float on back for 5 minutes with minimal hand and leg movements. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">5. Tread water for 30 seconds with hands and forearms clear of the water. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">6. Recover 3 objects from a depth of not less than 2m or greater than 3m. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">7. Swim one width under water [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Early Snorkel Training (Fins, mask, snorkel and buoyancy aid to be used throughout)[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">1. Sink all equipment in deep end, duck dive, recover and fit on surface whilst treading water and then clear mask underwater using snorkel. (Mandatory for continuation to aqualung) [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">2. Fin 6 lengths, diving to the bottom at least every 20m, demonstrating a correctly executed surface dive each time. (Mandatory for continuation to aqualung) [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">3. Tow a snorkel diver of equal weight, 1 length by a recognised method, to the satisfaction of the BTP. [/B]
4. As a test of mobility and buoyancy control, demonstrate three forward and three backward rolls, using minimal arm and leg movement. Breaths may be taken between each roll.<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">5 Fin underwater from deep end to steps. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">6 Submerge for 30 seconds underwater without mask and snorkel. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">(Mandatory for continuation to aqualung)[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">7 Without mask and snorkel, tread water for one minute with hands and forearms clear of the water. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Advanced Snorkel Training (Fins, mask, snorkel, buoyancy aid, weight belt and weights to be worn throughout).[/B]<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"> [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">1 Fin 3 lengths wearing 5kg weight belt. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">2 Adjust buoyancy to neutral, whilst treading water at deep end, remove mask, surface dive and place on pool bottom, surface and fin 3 lengths with face submerged, using snorkel tube only. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">3 Back at deep end, surface dive and recover and replace mask and fit whilst treading water. Give signal I am OK. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">4 Orally inflate your buoyancy aid on the surface. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">5 Carry out a simulated rescue. Answering a surface distress signal, fin length at speed to the victim. Inflate buoyancy aids as necessary and tow a further 1 lengths giving EAR. Land body a deep end and continue EAR for 2 minutes, finally placing the victim in the recovery position. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">All surface work to be completed on river-side of the pool.[/B]<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"> [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Early Aqualung Training (Buoyancy aid, weight belt with quick release buckle must be worn)[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">1 Assemble test and put on equipment.[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">2 Attain neutral buoyancy on pool bottom and adjust level by depth of respiration. [/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">3 Remove mouthpiece underwater, clear and replace. Two methods of clearing mouthpiece to be demonstrated.[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">4 Remove mask underwater, clear and replace twice. Surface, remove all equipment excluding buoyancy aid [/B]<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">(if ABLJ). Refit whilst on the surface. Breathing surface air[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">5 Demonstrate mobility and buoyancy control by completing three forward and thee backward rolls with minimal arm movement[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">6 Support a fully kitted dive (without suit) on the surface for 30 seconds. Both divers must be neutrally buoyant on the surface, breathing surface air, but not using a snorkel[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">7 On the surface at the deep end, remove weight belt and cylinder and hand to person on pool-side to simulate entry to a boat. Then refit same whilst treading water.[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Advanced Aqualung Training (Equipment as above)[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">1 3 lengths as follows; 1 lengths alternating between snorkel tube on the surface and aqualung beneath the surface; 1 lengths on the back, on the surface wearing aqualung and carrying snorkel, but using neither.[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">2. As donor share an aqualung with companion for 1 lengths exhaling gently between exchanges of mouthpiece, at a depth of no greater than 5m. Then repeat exercise acting as recipient[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">3 Fin 1 lengths in mid water with blanked out mask led by companion[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">4 While fully kitted, orally inflate and deflate buoyancy aid in the water, on the surface. At depth orally adjust buoyancy aid to neutral buoyancy[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">5 Emergency drill simulating boat dive situation. At speed fin length submerged, completing at deep end where a companion is pretending to be insensible at the bottom. Release weightbelts as necessary and bring body to the surface. Adjust buoyancy aids as required. Tow 1 lengths giving EAR; completing in deep end. Remove sets in water and hand to poolside assistant, land body and carry out simulated artificial respiration by the EAR method for one minute. Answer questions concerning the method of EAR to satisfaction of the BTP. [/B]
<DIV style="WIDTH: 756px; HEIGHT: 19px; mso-element: ; mso-element--width: 497.55pt; mso-element--height: 28.9pt; mso-element--: 9.05pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horiz&#111;ntal: page; mso-element-left: 37.45pt; mso-element-top: 3.15pt"></DIV>
<B style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Pre-Open Water Simulated Dive[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Wearing full equipment including suit, jacket, hood, boots gloves, buoyancy aid and weightbelt.[/B]
<B style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Carry out simulated dive in the pool, where performance, signals and responses are thoroughly tested. At depth with 2kg negative surface buoyancy, adjust buoyancy aid to neutral using cylinder or direct feed and continue with dive.[/B]

ChrisA
07-31-2007, 01:37
Are they done with fins on or no?

No fins or other swim aids. That standard is pretty lax however
all you have to do is finish using any "style" you want. Just float
on your back and skull with your arms, dog paddle, stop and
just float and rest if you like. When I did may test I was an even
worse swimmer than I am now and told the others they should
go see a movie or something and I'm be done maybe in a few
hours. I was the last one out of the pool

The last class I was in we had to tow a non-responcive swimmer
100 meters with no swim aids. Swimm weights up frm the bottom
and do some ocean rescues off the bottom without scuba. Gets
easier the more time you spend in the water

Go to the Y or a gym and sign up to ne on one sim lessions.
Well worth it.

ScubyDoo
07-31-2007, 21:05
I can't speak for any cert agency except PADI, which for "Open Water" certification requires the following confined water (pool) swims.

A 200 yd. free swim (no gear, no time limit)....OR
A 300 yd. snorkel swim (mask, fins, snorkel, no time limit).

A 10 minute tread in water too deep to stand in. No mask, no snorkel, no fins, no wetsuits.

Tired diver tow swims. Each student must tow with with at least 2 methods (tank pull, underarm tow, or leg push). No time limit. These skills are done with full scuba.

50 Ft. Underwater Swim - This consists of snorkeling at the surface, hyperventilating (3 deep breaths then hold), kicking your legs up in the air to drive you to the bottom, then returning to the surface and clearing your snorkel while maintaining snorkeling position.

picxie
08-01-2007, 03:40
I don't remember too much of my OW training but I'm pretty sure it was no gear at all (SSI). I was told by the LDS who trains as PADI that they swim with fins/mask/snorkel, as others have mentioned.

cummings66
08-01-2007, 20:08
The Scottish Aqua Club has some things that don't make sense. First they tell you no overarm strokes. I'm kind of thinking that's strokes like they later say you can do such as the crawl or freestyle.

The formatting doesn't work for me and it's hard to read so I could be seeing it wrong.

At any rate most of what they say sounds easy enough to do.

plot
08-02-2007, 17:56
most instructors dont care

mksmith713
02-06-2009, 11:20
I'm a PADI diver and our swim test consisted of swimming from the pier where the dive shops boat was docked to a pier some 50 meters away and back...twice...no gear....no time limit.......only a swim suit.
My wife and I swam side by side, chatting the whole way...doing the breast stroke.
It was nice.......

scuba007
02-06-2009, 12:27
I done the swim test 2 yars ago. No stopping, no time limite, any style you want and then 10 minute tread or float.

plot
02-06-2009, 17:41
keep in mind, the whole purpose of the swim test isn't to see if you can swim or how good of a swimmer you are, it's to see how comfortable you are in the water.

BH0873
02-28-2009, 10:40
I just recently finished my PADI O/W Confined Water Dives/Swim Test. They didn't offer any option to swim with fins/mask/snorkel, it was 200 yards no gear any stroke, however, best advice is swim slow and it's easy enough to get through.

The Float was immediately after, no rest between and everyone in the class passed (12 people).

scubasamurai
02-28-2009, 12:36
swim test is to see how comfortable you are and how well you stay afloat! it was fun and people just consider it part of the course

bandit6789
03-20-2009, 16:27
I just started OW week before last, our test was with no equipment at all a 75' underwater, on one breath, followed by 750' swim, any stroke, no time limit, then a 10 minute float. It was harder than I expected, but only because I'm not as in shape as I should be. Overall it was fun, and so far everything else has been downhill :)

setesh
03-20-2009, 17:03
I just started OW week before last, our test was with no equipment at all a 75' underwater, on one breath, followed by 750' swim, any stroke, no time limit, then a 10 minute float. It was harder than I expected, but only because I'm not as in shape as I should be. Overall it was fun, and so far everything else has been downhill :)

10 minute float would be a lot harder in a pool than in the ocean as well, not sure if they make allowance for that or not.

heydn62
03-21-2009, 15:33
I just started OW week before last, our test was with no equipment at all a 75' underwater, on one breath, followed by 750' swim, any stroke, no time limit, then a 10 minute float. It was harder than I expected, but only because I'm not as in shape as I should be. Overall it was fun, and so far everything else has been downhill :)

10 minute float would be a lot harder in a pool than in the ocean as well, not sure if they make allowance for that or not.

I'm one of those people who just can't float. So for me it was a 10 min water tread, which was pretty tough for an old guy.:smiley9:

mksmith713
03-25-2009, 17:00
PADI's is no gear 200m swim with a 10 minute tread water immediately after the swim

mksmith713
03-25-2009, 17:04
I just started OW week before last, our test was with no equipment at all a 75' underwater, on one breath, followed by 750' swim, any stroke, no time limit, then a 10 minute float. It was harder than I expected, but only because I'm not as in shape as I should be. Overall it was fun, and so far everything else has been downhill :)

????? You started at 75 feet under water??????

Last time I check, OW only certified you to dive to 60 feet and that's AFTER you're certified.

Unless I'm reading this wrong.

Or are you saying you had to swim one length of the pool (25 yards/75 feet) under water with a single breath?

Rainer
03-25-2009, 17:08
I just started OW week before last, our test was with no equipment at all a 75' underwater, on one breath, followed by 750' swim, any stroke, no time limit, then a 10 minute float. It was harder than I expected, but only because I'm not as in shape as I should be. Overall it was fun, and so far everything else has been downhill :)

????? You started at 75 feet under water??????

Last time I check, OW only certified you to dive to 60 feet and that's AFTER you're certified.

Unless I'm reading this wrong.

Or are you saying you had to swim one length of the pool (25 yards/75 feet) under water with a single breath?

The latter I'm sure.

bandit6789
03-27-2009, 21:36
I just started OW week before last, our test was with no equipment at all a 75' underwater, on one breath, followed by 750' swim, any stroke, no time limit, then a 10 minute float. It was harder than I expected, but only because I'm not as in shape as I should be. Overall it was fun, and so far everything else has been downhill :)

????? You started at 75 feet under water??????

Last time I check, OW only certified you to dive to 60 feet and that's AFTER you're certified.

Unless I'm reading this wrong.

Or are you saying you had to swim one length of the pool (25 yards/75 feet) under water with a single breath?

Haha, when I just read my own post I see it was not clear.
Although, it would be a little tricky to start from 75 feet under water.

Also, I believe SSI OW is to 100'.

mitsuguy
03-28-2009, 07:38
I just started OW week before last, our test was with no equipment at all a 75' underwater, on one breath, followed by 750' swim, any stroke, no time limit, then a 10 minute float. It was harder than I expected, but only because I'm not as in shape as I should be. Overall it was fun, and so far everything else has been downhill :)

????? You started at 75 feet under water??????

Last time I check, OW only certified you to dive to 60 feet and that's AFTER you're certified.

Unless I'm reading this wrong.

Or are you saying you had to swim one length of the pool (25 yards/75 feet) under water with a single breath?

Actually, once you are certified, its up to you to "dive within your experience and training". My first couple dives after open water were to 80 and 90 feet... definitely out of my experience, but because the water conditions were so much better than where I was certified, it was actually an easier dive for me to 90 feet than where I was certified to 50 feet...

Also, although some shops will only allow a certified open water diver to dive to 18m/60 ft, the only requirement by PADI (unsure, but I would think NAUI too), is that an Open Water diver can only go to 18m / 60 ft for TRAINING dives... meaning, obviously within the course, and, after the course if doing any specialties, they must be less than 18m / 60ft until AOW is done, which gives you to 30m/100 ft during training dives, and then Deep Specialty, which is 40m/130 ft during training dives...

"during training dives" are the key words... liability beyond training dives rests on the diver, as they are informed to "plan their dives and dive their plans" and given the option to stay with a DM if unsure...

fanatique
03-28-2009, 10:22
SSI swim test was no gear -- no fins, no wet suit -- for both swim test and treading water test.

Same here. And no time limit as well.

mitsuguy
03-28-2009, 10:37
SSI swim test was no gear -- no fins, no wet suit -- for both swim test and treading water test.

Same here. And no time limit as well.

with PADI, they allow an exposure suit, but you must weight yourself neutrally to compensate for the suit...

they also allow you to use mask and snorkel, but then you have to swim 50% farther, 300 m versus the standard 200 m

no time limit, yes... then, ten minute tread/float with the same requirements, but no mask/snorkel allowed...

mitsuguy
03-28-2009, 10:40
Also, I believe SSI OW is to 100'.

nope... its 18m / 60 ft just like PADI...

"After 5 dives and a examination dive you will be awarded the O.W.D. CC (certification card) which will let you dive all over the world to a depth of 18mt (around 55ft). "

paperdesk
04-13-2009, 16:15
Swim test? I don't remember a swim test.

We were told that you don't really need to know how to swim to dive because the bcd keeps you buoyant.

I thought that was cool at the time, but a few years later I am appalled. I figure if you can't swim at least reasonably well, how can you be confident in the water, and if you aren't confident and comfortable, you are many times more likely to panic and die. I guess I've read too many stories of drowned divers, and wondered how many of these might have been avoided if the individual had been able to avoid panicking.

I think divers should be required to be able to swim. Maybe not really good swimmers, but good enough to be comfortable in the water.

lespaulsf
04-27-2009, 10:44
I'm a newly certified OW diver. We had to do the 300m swim with fins, mask and snorkel. I had actually been swimming at the gym for about a month practicing for the 200m swim without fins. Once we got to the pool session they said we were actually doing the 300m fin swim. Its not to bad as long as you pace yourself. As for the staying afloat for 10 minutes I used the back float most of the time.

mitsuguy
04-27-2009, 11:10
I'm a newly certified OW diver. We had to do the 300m swim with fins, mask and snorkel. I had actually been swimming at the gym for about a month practicing for the 200m swim without fins. Once we got to the pool session they said we were actually doing the 300m fin swim. Its not to bad as long as you pace yourself. As for the staying afloat for 10 minutes I used the back float most of the time.

200m swim / 300m fin swim are both very easy...

I had a guy doggy paddle the whole way for the 200m not too long ago... amazingly, he was pretty good under the water, just horrible on top of the water...

if we have any questions as to someones comfort level swimming, we typically talk to them first and ask which they are more comfortable doing... if they would rather do the 300m, we typically just tell everyone to do the same... of course, so long as you can do one or the other, you are fine...

Grizbear98
04-27-2009, 11:44
my PADI instructor didn't want to see any doggie paddling but other than that she didn't care what stroke we used

Kingpatzer
04-30-2009, 10:53
Not really sure why it's required .. Diving is about sinking :)

mitsuguy
04-30-2009, 10:57
Not really sure why it's required .. Diving is about sinking :)

but would you want to be out diving with someone that couldn't swim a simple 200m back to the boat or shore??? there is no time limit, so long as you can make it...

personally, anyone that can't swim that, simply shouldn't be diving...

scubagirlj
04-30-2009, 12:24
I second that Mitsguy! Have had occasion to have been buddied with a woman during CW that was afraid to put her head underwater and a girl who couldn't swim at all during the OW session-both were taking OW cert to please kids/fiance, not because they wanted to. Asking for trouble IMHO

bennerman
04-30-2009, 15:20
Any stroke...
Say that I just wave my hands and feet around in a disorderly fashion, and just happen to make it to the end, would that count?

scubagirlj
04-30-2009, 15:51
spoken like a 15 yr old......

bennerman
04-30-2009, 16:29
What is that supposed to mean, pray-tell?

Kingpatzer
05-01-2009, 07:15
Not really sure why it's required .. Diving is about sinking :)

but would you want to be out diving with someone that couldn't swim a simple 200m back to the boat or shore??? there is no time limit, so long as you can make it...

personally, anyone that can't swim that, simply shouldn't be diving...

While I see your point, honestly as structured it is rather pointless. If you're diving you have a BC to keep you on the surface. If you can kick your legs under water, you can kick them above water.

Further, with no time limit on the swims, there is absolutely no guarantee that person can make any length of swim back to shore if the water is at all rough. Even the DM timed requirements for most agencies are barely adequate for that.

I've seen more than a few certified divers crap out well before they've made it close to the exit point on Superior. It's actually frighteningly common for dives on the Madeira and other wrecks reachable with a few hundred yard swim from shore to need significant help to get back out.

mitsuguy
05-01-2009, 07:38
Not really sure why it's required .. Diving is about sinking :)

but would you want to be out diving with someone that couldn't swim a simple 200m back to the boat or shore??? there is no time limit, so long as you can make it...

personally, anyone that can't swim that, simply shouldn't be diving...

While I see your point, honestly as structured it is rather pointless. If you're diving you have a BC to keep you on the surface. If you can kick your legs under water, you can kick them above water.

Further, with no time limit on the swims, there is absolutely no guarantee that person can make any length of swim back to shore if the water is at all rough. Even the DM timed requirements for most agencies are barely adequate for that.

I've seen more than a few certified divers crap out well before they've made it close to the exit point on Superior. It's actually frighteningly common for dives on the Madeira and other wrecks reachable with a few hundred yard swim from shore to need significant help to get back out.

actually, the timed requirements for PADI at least are fairly rigorous if you are trying to get 5's on all of the tests... in fact, I just barely squeaked out a 5 on the standard swim and the mask/fin/snorkel swim... if you are doing the bare minimum, then yes, they are quite a bit easier...

we just had a similar discussion about rescue being included in open water... the problem with having more advanced skills or stamina required for an entry level OW certification is that it may turn people away from diving at all... one thing everyone is taught is that when they are trained, that they have been certified to dive in the conditions they were trained in, or better... if someone is getting over their head in terms of wave height or swim distance, then they are ignoring one of the things beaten into their heads in their open water course...

just because you have a BC to keep you afloat doesn't mean that anyone and everyone is going to be ok... what if the BC fails? if you surface alone because you have a bc problem and can't get your buddy to acknowledge you, and then the bc fails completely and you have to ditch it, what happens if you can't float or tread water for the 10 minutes that may be required for assistance, or swim a little bit to make it to a safer point...

part of the reasoning for the tests isn't so much to check your swimming ability, but to check your stamina... if you aren't fit enough to make it 200m and float for 10 minutes, do you really think you are fit enough to dive...

and if you are saying that the requirements aren't enough, then what is enough? at what point do you deny people a diving certification because they aren't a competitive swimmer??? (I was in high school, and it took a little time to get back into shape to score good on the DM swims)

Especially for newer OW divers, and those that aren't completely comfortable with their stamina or skills, I think the general consensus is that you should be diving with someone who is trained better, potentially professional DM or instructor if you have these potential issues... and if you end up in that situation, you have a better chance of making it out with someone better trained to do so...

it basically goes back to the "dive within your limitations" clause we all use...

Kingpatzer
05-01-2009, 08:31
Not really sure why it's required .. Diving is about sinking :)

but would you want to be out diving with someone that couldn't swim a simple 200m back to the boat or shore??? there is no time limit, so long as you can make it...

personally, anyone that can't swim that, simply shouldn't be diving...

While I see your point, honestly as structured it is rather pointless. If you're diving you have a BC to keep you on the surface. If you can kick your legs under water, you can kick them above water.

Further, with no time limit on the swims . . .

actually, the timed requirements for PADI at least are fairly rigorous if you are trying to get 5's on all of the tests...


We're not talking about professional tier certifications. We're talking about the 200/300 OW swim.

mitsuguy
05-01-2009, 08:37
actually, the timed requirements for PADI at least are fairly rigorous if you are trying to get 5's on all of the tests...


We're not talking about professional tier certifications. We're talking about the 200/300 OW swim.

Um, we weren't, you were the one that brought it up:



Even the DM timed requirements for most agencies are barely adequate for that.

Kingpatzer
05-01-2009, 09:04
We're not talking about professional tier certifications. We're talking about the 200/300 OW swim.

Um, we weren't, you were the one that brought it up:



Even the DM timed requirements for most agencies are barely adequate for that.


That was a side comment to my larger point which I thought you were responding to (and one I'll stand by but wasn't the gist of my statement -- want to test stamina and strength? Swim a mile in under 30 minutes.)

My post was a follow up to your response to my statement (gads... ) that testing swimming skills is pointless as diving is about sinking. You specifically mentioned 200m without a time limit.

mitsuguy
05-01-2009, 09:14
We're not talking about professional tier certifications. We're talking about the 200/300 OW swim.

Um, we weren't, you were the one that brought it up:



Even the DM timed requirements for most agencies are barely adequate for that.


That was a side comment to my larger point which I thought you were responding to (and one I'll stand by but wasn't the gist of my statement -- want to test stamina and strength? Swim a mile in under 30 minutes.)

My post was a follow up to your response to my statement (gads... ) that testing swimming skills is pointless as diving is about sinking. You specifically mentioned 200m without a time limit.

I'm sorry, but I can't tell if you are coming or going...

you say that testing swimming skills is "pointless as diving is about sinking" and then say that the tests aren't a true test of stamina and strength...

I can swim a mile in 30 minutes, no problem, but new divers HAVE to be evaluated somehow else who is to know if they can even float or swim at all, and going much beyond what they do might be excess...

so, what is your proposed plan? from what I read, it sounds like if we are going to have some sort of stamina test, it better be competition like times, or no test at all...

chinacat46
05-01-2009, 09:35
I agree with Mitsuguy you need some sort of test of swiming skills but testing for stamina and strength are overkill as you really don't use those skills diving. However it does test if you are comfortable in water and can stay on the surface for a period of time if need be. BC's can and do fail I had one fail in the Galapagos with 20lbs of weight around my waist. I came very close to dropping my belt as my BC would not hold air. I knew I could keep myself afloat till the panga came and got me.

Kingpatzer
05-01-2009, 09:48
I'm sorry, but I can't tell if you are coming or going...

you say that testing swimming skills is "pointless as diving is about sinking" and then say that the tests aren't a true test of stamina and strength...


They are utterly insufficient at all levels within the programs I am aware of.



I can swim a mile in 30 minutes, no problem, but new divers HAVE to be evaluated somehow else who is to know if they can even float or swim at all, and going much beyond what they do might be excess...


They need to be able to operate their gear. If they get into trouble and the BC is broken, dump everything and the wet suit will give even the worst swimmer enough buoyancy to stay afloat.



so, what is your proposed plan? from what I read, it sounds like if we are going to have some sort of stamina test, it better be competition like times, or no test at all...

I have no "proposed plan." I am in no position to propose a plan to any agency.

I'm merely stating what to me is obvious:

The typical diver goes out on a boat with a DM or two, in calm water, and drops down on a guided dive that ends right back at the boat. They do this around 10 times and never dive again. For that level of engagement, being able to swim is simply not needed.

Divers who become serious about the sport need to be significantly better swimmers than the tests require. An un-timed, short swim demonstrates nothing of value to diving. The DM dive testing in most agencies is equally insufficient. My personal experience is that far too many divers (including DMs) can't handle moderate swims in common wave conditions.

Given that, the swim tests are pointless. They are what they are, and as a requirement must be passed. But they serve no value. Average divers will never need to swim and dedicated divers will need to swim much better.

mitsuguy
05-01-2009, 10:15
I'm sorry, but I can't tell if you are coming or going...

you say that testing swimming skills is "pointless as diving is about sinking" and then say that the tests aren't a true test of stamina and strength...


They are utterly insufficient at all levels within the programs I am aware of.



I can swim a mile in 30 minutes, no problem, but new divers HAVE to be evaluated somehow else who is to know if they can even float or swim at all, and going much beyond what they do might be excess...
They need to be able to operate their gear. If they get into trouble and the BC is broken, dump everything and the wet suit will give even the worst swimmer enough buoyancy to stay afloat.



so, what is your proposed plan? from what I read, it sounds like if we are going to have some sort of stamina test, it better be competition like times, or no test at all...I have no "proposed plan." I am in no position to propose a plan to any agency.

I'm merely stating what to me is obvious:

The typical diver goes out on a boat with a DM or two, in calm water, and drops down on a guided dive that ends right back at the boat. They do this around 10 times and never dive again. For that level of engagement, being able to swim is simply not needed.

Divers who become serious about the sport need to be significantly better swimmers than the tests require. An un-timed, short swim demonstrates nothing of value to diving. The DM dive testing in most agencies is equally insufficient. My personal experience is that far too many divers (including DMs) can't handle moderate swims in common wave conditions.

Given that, the swim tests are pointless. They are what they are, and as a requirement must be passed. But they serve no value. Average divers will never need to swim and dedicated divers will need to swim much better.

When all goes well, what you are saying is true. It's when something happens and all isn't going well that everyone needs to have some sort of stamina to swim and float. Does everyone everywhere wear a wetsuit? I do, but there are plenty of people I dive with daily that wear nothing more than a rashguard... no buoyancy there... not too long ago, I was following a divemaster around, while I was taking pictures - it was an area I wasn't familiar with at the time, and he obviously got lost... long story short, we surfaced 900-1000m from the boat... in 3-4 foot swells, we had to surface swim all the way back... luckily it was myself, my wife and two other divemasters (at the time), and the swim was an inconvenience, but nothing more... (obviously no one was paying attention) had that been a mistake made with entry level divers, they might not have been able to make that long of a swim, but they would have been able to support themself had it gone worse and had a BC problem...

And maybe where you learned to dive and do dive, the water is always calm and nothing ever happens, but we're talking about what if's... just this past week, we had 4-6' seas and were still going diving...

I suppose in your version of the diving world, we shouldn't need to know how to swim... in my eyes, thats like telling someone they don't need to know how to ride a bike in order to trail ride...

edit: without at least a suggestion as to how to make something better, how can you justify bashing a standing rule...

"you guys are dumb, I don't know the answer either, but you guys are dumb" is essentially what you are saying to the agencies...

Kingpatzer
05-01-2009, 10:48
. . . long story short, we surfaced 900-1000m from the boat... in 3-4 foot swells, we had to surface swim all the way back..had that been a mistake made with entry level divers, they might not have been able to make that long of a swim, but they would have been able to support themself had it gone worse and had a BC problem...


There's no guarantee of that at all. A novice diver is likely to find just the 3-4 foot swells something of a major distraction. A novice diver with a major equipment problem is probable going to have "panic" higher on their list of things to do than "ditch BC and weights and tread water."

And given the ludicrously minimal standards that agencies require they may well have passed but could not take care of themselves long enough for you to get the attention of the boat.



And maybe where you learned to dive and do dive, the water is always calm and nothing ever happens, but we're talking about what if's... just this past week, we had 4-6' seas and were still going diving...


Actually just the opposite -- which is why finding divers in trouble is such a common practice. The Great Lakes have a tendency to get nasty in unpredictable ways.



I suppose in your version of the diving world, we shouldn't need to know how to swim... in my eyes, thats like telling someone they don't need to know how to ride a bike in order to trail ride...


That's not my point. My point is that the swim tests offered are so worthless that they might not exist at all.



edit: without at least a suggestion as to how to make something better, how can you justify bashing a standing rule...

"you guys are dumb, I don't know the answer either, but you guys are dumb" is essentially what you are saying to the agencies...

I didn't realize one needed to have an answer to recognize a problem or issue.

paperdesk
05-05-2009, 12:03
I see your point Kingpatzer, however, I'd rather they make sure the diver can swim a little, than not do any test at all. I believe it's naive to assume that a dive master will take care of his people. I've been on many dives where the DM hardly paid attention to their divers, sometimes even leaving a "resort course" diver buddyless to make it through the dive on their own. Of course this is the extreme, but in my short diving experience I've seen it.

For example, a lot of people around here heat their homes with wood, and most of them cut their own firewood. When using the chainsaw, some use a helmet, hearing protection, chaps, gloves, boots etc. Some use little or none of the above. Isn't it better to wear just chaps, and not a helmet, than to to wear nothing at all? Isn't it better to have a minimal requirement than no requirement at all? At least we can hope to avoid some injuries or deaths this way.

Just my 2cents.

Ted



[quote=mitsuguy;294492]
And given the ludicrously minimal standards that agencies require they may well have passed but could not take care of themselves long enough for you to get the attention of the boat.

lt.dan58
05-05-2009, 16:12
ok I just did this test for my OW cert. (PIDA) on Sat... would only allow us to do it with a mask snorkel boots and fins.... we were not allowed to do the 200 with no gear.... this was for the PIDA cert in so cal

bennerman
05-06-2009, 14:37
On an off topic note, how does everyone pronounce the agencies' names?
PADI (for example:)
Pee-Eh-Dee-Ay?
or
Pad-Ee?
etc.

chinacat46
05-06-2009, 16:41
Patty as in I did my UW sex speciality with Patty

BubblesMcCoy
05-06-2009, 16:58
Patty as in I did my UW sex speciality with Patty

Must have missed that class in the brochure. I guess if you can't wait to get it on with PADI you might as well do it Now Eee (NAUI).

Bear with me, it's been a long day.

Okc_diver
05-06-2009, 20:44
I think PADI gives you the choice of a 200m swim or 300m snorkel which I thought was with mask/snorkel/fins, but perhaps I am mistaken?

last year when I took my class someone asked if it was with gear or without. The instructor said without gear its 200m with gear its 300m. The treading water is no gear no touching walls and has to be done in water over your head

OTGav
05-07-2009, 21:22
Personally I have seen the difficulties that come from allowing the 300m snorkle/fin swim in the OW cert. Unless there are specific reasons to do it I don't think it should be in general use for OW.

We have given swimming lessons to a couple of people that joined our club - they were already cert'd divers when they arrived with us. They turned up and asked if we offered swimming lesson

"Why you have a friend that needs them?"
"No, for me, I don't swim so well without my fins on"
"Aren't you down for a dive with us this weekend.............?"

If you are not comfy in the water, why allow people to have the false sense of confidence that comes with using fins - fins fall off, and where does that leave the non-swimming diver.

It gave us the fear to be honest knowing the conditions we dive - although we knew how that the cert's were handed out within the regs of the agencey - the people in question have gone on to be cool divers and happy swimmers too.

If you can't happily knock out 200m swimming under your own steam then please don't jump off a boat 3km out to sea.

It's not like a fin strap breaking is an unheard of event.

Kingpatzer
05-14-2009, 08:34
200m in a pool doing a slow side-stroke is about 10' in open water with 4' waves for some people :)

I get why folks think scuba divers should have some ability to swim. I understand the rational. But as no agency actually tests to see if a person is a competent swimmer, it's pretty clear that the industry doesn't see it as mattering for resort diving.

And if you're out on Superior and weather rolls in while you're under water, no matter how good you are, if you let go of the line, the boat will have to come to you.

Where swimming skills do matter is for doing rescue work. And there the testing should be significant. Timed swims using a fast stroke over a long distance. Something along the lines of having to do 500m in a closed pool in 7 minutes or so would be barely adequate to translate into the swimming strength needed to effect a rescue in open water with weather. It doesn't have to be air-sea rescue type swimming, but it should be something far better than the current test standards.

namabiru
05-15-2009, 09:43
Patty as in I did my UW sex speciality with Patty

Good for you. :smiley36:

chinacat46
05-15-2009, 10:10
Patty as in I did my UW sex speciality with Patty

Good for you. :smiley36:

It was good for her too! :smiley20: But at 100' you can waste anytime on foreplay. :smilie39:

UofTOrange
05-15-2009, 14:42
Patty as in I did my UW sex speciality with Patty

I just looked through my LDS's calendar, and they don't have one on there. Any idea how I can get them to add this specialty class? Will it count towards Dive Master? I'd think it would have to, right? :smiley32:

chinacat46
05-15-2009, 15:57
Patty as in I did my UW sex speciality with Patty

I just looked through my LDS's calendar, and they don't have one on there. Any idea how I can get them to add this specialty class? Will it count towards Dive Master? I'd think it would have to, right? :smiley32:

It's a distinctive speciality and as such it's not listed with the more generic speciality most shops teach. Shop around and if you get "lucky" you can take the class. It is one of the more difficult ones and requires going down at least 4 times.:smilie39:

Coastie6
05-16-2009, 11:02
Patty as in I did my UW sex speciality with Patty

I just looked through my LDS's calendar, and they don't have one on there. Any idea how I can get them to add this specialty class? Will it count towards Dive Master? I'd think it would have to, right? :smiley32:

It's a distinctive speciality and as such it's not listed with the more generic speciality most shops teach. Shop around and if you get "lucky" you can take the class. It is one of the more difficult ones and requires going down at least 4 times.:smilie39:

Wife and I been working on the practical factors for years; didn't realize there was a cert available. Should be eligible for ASS (Advanced Sex Speciality) certification.

chinacat46
05-16-2009, 11:09
I'm a member of the mile high club as well. Heck I live at 5400'

bennerman
05-16-2009, 18:33
I'm a member of the mile high club as well. Heck I live at 5400'

One of my favourite King of the Hill quotes:
"Luanne: Uncle Hank! This man asked me if I wanted to join the mile high club, can you get me an application?
Hank: Well I assume they would have them on the plane, Luanne."

Sucks they never managed to take off, I wanted to see the look on the steward(ess)'s face when she asked for an application :)

Anyway, is it exactly a mile up or a mile+ up?

chinacat46
05-21-2009, 19:11
I'm a member of the mile high club as well. Heck I live at 5400'

One of my favourite King of the Hill quotes:
"Luanne: Uncle Hank! This man asked me if I wanted to join the mile high club, can you get me an application?
Hank: Well I assume they would have them on the plane, Luanne."

Sucks they never managed to take off, I wanted to see the look on the steward(ess)'s face when she asked for an application :)

Anyway, is it exactly a mile up or a mile+ up?

It's a mile+ although if you want to be exact the 13th step of the state capital building in Denver is exactly a mile above sea level.:smiley20:

bennerman
05-21-2009, 19:18
I'm a member of the mile high club as well. Heck I live at 5400'

One of my favourite King of the Hill quotes:
"Luanne: Uncle Hank! This man asked me if I wanted to join the mile high club, can you get me an application?
Hank: Well I assume they would have them on the plane, Luanne."

Sucks they never managed to take off, I wanted to see the look on the steward(ess)'s face when she asked for an application :)

Anyway, is it exactly a mile up or a mile+ up?

It's a mile+ although if you want to be exact the 13th step of the state capital building in Denver is exactly a mile above sea level.:smiley20:

Talk about a government f*** up!

chinacat46
05-21-2009, 19:23
Well at least they count it. Not like elevators which go 11, 12, 14, 15

navyscuba8
05-23-2009, 03:48
I completed a 10 Minute Water Tread and a 200 Yard swim. I did a little extra to show off though. I took it 3 time's with different classes. 17-23 & a 30 Minute tread. with a solid 400 Yard swim. I used to be in the Navy though and completed the BUD/S Warning Order for SEAL training, so I already had the advantage. I recommend practice, practice and practice some more. Sorry, no other short-cut's it's not like cheating on a test. I had to drill it in to my thick skull over and over again at the pool until I finally acheived a high level of performance that was satisfactory to me. My body (your) body will remember that level of peak performance for ever and if you do the same your body will too. Try incorporating side stroke's, breast stroke's, over-hand stroke's and back stroke's. The can only be beneficial to the shoulder's whichis what you use for propulsion in addition to just kicking. At the same time you can use these technique's while diving in Open Water. With a Mask Snorkel and fin's in fresh water I get bored and try not to go over 2 hour's. In Salt water my tread time is a respectable and solid 4 hour's. With-out a suite of course. The picture to the left, is me in 1999 in Navy bootcamp where I finished in 1st place in the 1st PT Test. 5'6'' 160lbs. athletic and 160 lbs. of pure Navy amphibious muscle working at optimal and peak performance. Notice my brown tan from sun exposure. And the hat is incase the boat start's to sink. In the old Navy my jumper suit you see to the left was and can still be used as an exposure suit. The belt used can also be used as a weight belt. The same exact type of belt buckle used for lead weight's these day's.