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BobbyWombat
10-28-2007, 23:03
OK, so I'm far from a DIR or tech diver, but I can see the benefits in the gear setup. I am a relative newbie w/ OW cert only.

So, let's play "Good Idea / Bad Idea".

Scenario 1:
I like the idea of having a bungied octo on a necklace. I am thinking about adopting this as my normal setup. I would retain my short primary hose, and donate my primary in an emergency.

Good Idea or Bad Idea?

Scenario 2:
I adopt both the bungied octo AND the long primary hose in my setup. Only training on this is what I get from reading some stuff online and practicing w/ it when diving since I know no one with this setup that can show me the ropes. Going tech (if ever) is a looong ways off.

Good Idea or Bad Idea?

-----------------
Appreciate any feedback I can get. Looking for the pitfalls in both approaches, and what I would need to do to implement either approach AND be safe (i.e. do I need some training in using a long hose?).

Thanks.

mitsuguy
10-28-2007, 23:23
I see nothing wrong with the DIR style of diving, however, its not how people are trained by PADI or NAUI... the only downfall I see is in standard rec diving, some confusion by those not familiar with the alternative... this may and probably won't matter if you are always diving with the same group of people, but if you ever get instabuddied somewhere, they will not be entirely familiar with your setup...

I plan on going all the way through to DM and above, so, I almost have to stay with the standard, more common setup - if not, I would be thinking about this setup as well...

floater
10-29-2007, 07:38
OK, so I'm far from a DIR or tech diver, but I can see the benefits in the gear setup. I am a relative newbie w/ OW cert only.

So, let's play "Good Idea / Bad Idea".

Scenario 1:
I like the idea of having a bungied octo on a necklace. I am thinking about adopting this as my normal setup. I would retain my short primary hose, and donate my primary in an emergency.

Good Idea or Bad Idea?

at the very least put the longer of your two reg hoses to your primary. a 40" with a (good quality) swivel elbow routed under the right arm is arguably DIR for OW (at least that's what GI3 used to dive, though probably without the swivel).

That said, the octo hoses should be 22 or 24 inches, otherwise it will stick out too much.


Scenario 2:
I adopt both the bungied octo AND the long primary hose in my setup. Only training on this is what I get from reading some stuff online and practicing w/ it when diving since I know no one with this setup that can show me the ropes. Going tech (if ever) is a looong ways off.

Good Idea or Bad Idea?The 7 ft hose may take a little training to stow and deploy, but you can find video clips of how to do it online. The 5 ft hose is easier and the 40" hose with swivel elbow is self-explanatory.

Chad
10-29-2007, 10:04
I like Scenario 2. After looking at all the various gear configurations I decided early on that I preferred the long hose setup. I went with the 7' because I knew I wanted to go the tech route. If you plan on rec diving only you may like the 5' hose better. The 7' hose routes better when you have a can light to loop it under. I don't have a can yet so I just tuck the excess in my waist strap. It is very simple to deploy but like all things needs some practice. To me it is much faster and easier to get air to an out of air diver with this setup. It would be great if you could find someone with a long hose setup to try in a pool before you buy. If you are ever in Dallas you are welcome to try mine in the ST pool. :smiley20:

No Misses
10-29-2007, 10:44
Buy a 5' hose and give it a try. It only cost $31. ST carries all of the common lengths.

P.S. I dive a bp/w, 5' primary, and 22" octo w/bungie.


http://www.scubatoys.com/store/DIR/Individualhoses.jpg (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=IndividualDIRHose)
Individual Various Length Hoses for DIR Diving (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=IndividualDIRHose)

Individual Various Length Hoses for DIR Diving


If you have decided to go with the DIR program here are all of the individual hoses that DIR says you need. According to DIR proper hose length is an essential component of a safe and comfortable diving rig.

You could save a bunch of money on your hoses if you need the full kits:

Double Tank Hose Kit (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=DoubleTankKit)
Single Tank Hose Kit (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=SingleTankKit)
Stage Bottle Hose Kit (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=StageHoseKit)
Individual Hose Prices listed in drop down menu

Price: $19.00
Hose Size 6 Inch HP40 Inch LP $24.0022 Inch LP $24.9524 Inch HP $29.955 Foot LP $31.007 Foot LP $34.00

BobbyWombat
10-29-2007, 11:00
Instead of quoting everyone, I'll just say thanks to everyone who has posted so far. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.

I'll check out some of the DIR stuff online about hose routing. I'll definitely take a look at a 5' hose, since I'm only talking rec stuff for now. Same basic routing as the 7' hose, just not hooked under a can light, right?

Roger Wilco on the short hose for the bungied octo, this makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for the links, NoMisses. That answered a lot of questions right off the bat.

BobbyWombat
10-29-2007, 11:12
What about the bolt snap attached to the primary reg?
What is the function of this?
If I go w/ a long hose should I incorporate this?
Isn't it heavy and kind of annoying to have there?

Chad
10-29-2007, 11:25
The bolt snap is so that you can clip your reg off to your right chest d-ring when it is not in your mouth. I find it very useful to keep your reg out of the sand or off the deck.

BobbyWombat
10-29-2007, 11:51
The bolt snap is so that you can clip your reg off to your right chest d-ring when it is not in your mouth. I find it very useful to keep your reg out of the sand or off the deck.

And it doesn't bother you when diving to have it hanging off your reg?

Chad
10-29-2007, 12:07
The bolt snap is so that you can clip your reg off to your right chest d-ring when it is not in your mouth. I find it very useful to keep your reg out of the sand or off the deck.

And it doesn't bother you when diving to have it hanging off your reg?

Nope. I don't notice it under water.

CompuDude
10-29-2007, 14:11
The bolt snap is needed, and no, you won't even know it's there once you get in the water... until you need it.

First question: What kind of BC do you have? Are you diving a bp/w?

The 7' hose is somewhat tricky to manage without a bp/w, from what I've seen. Additionally, depending on the type of BC you have, a standard BC that rides up on your shoulders when floating at the surface (as opposed to a bp/w that is held in place with the crotch strap) can have a tendency to push your hoses up and be pretty annoying. I watched a student struggling with this issue just last week. They were trying to use a long hose setup (7') with a new, expensive AquaLung BC. The hoses just don't route the same with a regular BC. The 5' hose is better option in that scenario... but you'll still have issues that the surface if your rig rides up.

If you want the shortest, easiest option in scenario #1, as mentioned, be sure to swap the primary hose (probably ~33" and octo hose (probably ~40"), so the short hose is the bungeed one.

I would see if you can find a local tech diver to teach you a few things about air shares and dealing with the longer hose, but I don't think any special training outside of 10-15 minutes of chatting and demonstration should be required.

BobbyWombat
10-29-2007, 16:11
First question: What kind of BC do you have? Are you diving a bp/w?



Valid question. I am planning on purchasing a singles BP/W over the winter, before I dive again. I won't be going full-on DIR anytime soon, but I'm trying to figure out where I think I'm going in terms of my setup.

CompuDude
10-29-2007, 16:19
First question: What kind of BC do you have? Are you diving a bp/w?



Valid question. I am planning on purchasing a singles BP/W over the winter, before I dive again. I won't be going full-on DIR anytime soon, but I'm trying to figure out where I think I'm going in terms of my setup.

In that case I would go straight to the long hose rig with the 7' hose... the kit linked above should serve you well.

If you don't have a can light to loop the hose under, I recommend picking up a pocket (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=DiveRiteWaistPocket) of some sort to put on your waist belt (which is handy for other things, too, of course), and using that to hold the hose in place. Worked well for me before I got my can light.

A long hose rig + bp/w is not "DIR" or "Tech" ... it's simply a great diving rig. It will serve you well, however, should you decide to head down the tech path later in your diving life.

ianr33
10-29-2007, 16:47
I would recommend going with the 7 foot hose rather than the 5. I used 5 foot for a while and it never really seemed to route correctly. With the 7 I dont even know it is there,it just lies flat across your body.

As regards "securing" the hose without a can light there are a few methods that work.Either hook it behind a pocket as others have mentioned,hook it under a knife/shears that are on your waist belt or just tuck it into the waistbelt.

Once you do a few dives like this,and practice a few air shares you will wonder why anybody bothers with all that Golden Triangle Octopus holder stuff.

bubble-head
10-29-2007, 17:00
The bolt snap never gets in the way when diving. And it does a great job of securing the reg. When diving with non-long hose divers, make sure you explain your set up to them and that you will donate your primary to them.

BobbyWombat
10-29-2007, 17:25
Mucho thanks folks. I appeciate the good input.

RonFrank
10-29-2007, 17:33
The 7' hose is somewhat tricky to manage without a bp/w, from what I've seen. Additionally, depending on the type of BC you have, a standard BC that rides up on your shoulders when floating at the surface (as opposed to a bp/w that is held in place with the crotch strap) can have a tendency to push your hoses up and be pretty annoying.

I can't agree with this statement. I dive a long hose necklace backup with a Stiletto on travel. The hose routing works the same way as with a Hog Harness. One can tuck the hose into the waist belt if there is no can light being used. I have a dive knife mounted on my right bun, and I can route the hose under that just like it was a can light if I'm not diving with my HID.

Mounting the can light is a bit different because the cumberbun is not webbing, so I have to attach the light with a bolt snap onto the right DRing which works fine even if I would prefer that it would fit onto the waist strap webbing.

Any BC can be setup with a crotch strap. In some cases one may have to find someone to do a bit of sewing. I know for example most Zeagles come with a crotch strap attachment point, so a BP/W is not the only configuration that accepts a crotch strap.

Jacket style BC should not ride up. With new students it was likely a case of overloading their BC with air, and potentially an ill fit, or both.

I would recommend surgical tubing instead of bungee or cave line. In Salt water bungee has a tendency to chafe around the neck.

RonFrank
10-29-2007, 17:38
The bolt snap never gets in the way when diving. And it does a great job of securing the reg. When diving with non-long hose divers, make sure you explain your set up to them and that you will donate your primary to them.


Since a LOT of PADI shops are renting and using Octo+ type inflaters a LOT of PADI students are comfortable and trained with the idea that one donates their primary.

By all means explain the setup to any buddy before your first dive. Discussing gear configuration should Always be done when diving with someone new.

Flatliner
10-29-2007, 18:00
I am currently diving your first mentioned set up. All I did was switch the shorter of the two hoses to the bungied 2nd stage. I also route the bungied 2nd under my arm rather than over the sholder. It is working great but I am planning on switching to a 7' - 22" set up next season.

CompuDude
10-29-2007, 18:17
The 7' hose is somewhat tricky to manage without a bp/w, from what I've seen. Additionally, depending on the type of BC you have, a standard BC that rides up on your shoulders when floating at the surface (as opposed to a bp/w that is held in place with the crotch strap) can have a tendency to push your hoses up and be pretty annoying.

I can't agree with this statement. I dive a long hose necklace backup with a Stiletto on travel. The hose routing works the same way as with a Hog Harness. One can tuck the hose into the waist belt if there is no can light being used. I have a dive knife mounted on my right bun, and I can route the hose under that just like it was a can light if I'm not diving with my HID.

Mounting the can light is a bit different because the cumberbun is not webbing, so I have to attach the light with a bolt snap onto the right DRing which works fine even if I would prefer that it would fit onto the waist strap webbing.

Any BC can be setup with a crotch strap. In some cases one may have to find someone to do a bit of sewing. I know for example most Zeagles come with a crotch strap attachment point, so a BP/W is not the only configuration that accepts a crotch strap.

Jacket style BC should not ride up. With new students it was likely a case of overloading their BC with air, and potentially an ill fit, or both.

I would recommend surgical tubing instead of bungee or cave line. In Salt water bungee has a tendency to chafe around the neck.

Only commenting on what I have seem people struggling with numerous times. Glad you were able to make it work for you, but for some, it has been a real challenge. From what I recall, the preferred hose length for traditional BCs in a recreational context is a 5-6' hose. (no overhead requirements means 7' is not strictly necessary)

Sewing modifications to your BC is not really what I would consider a standard gear fix, and only a few are actually able to add a crotch strap out of the box, so again, we're going outside the norm there.

All of this is academic, of course, since the OP is going to a bp/w.

BobbyWombat
10-29-2007, 21:11
OK, follow on question. When gearing up on land or a boat, what do you do to manage the 7' long hose?

vadiver
10-29-2007, 21:28
coil it in a loose circle and clip it to the right side D-ring on the harness. Uncoil it before you gear up but leave the reg clipped off. Once you are in the harness with everything secured unclip the reg and route the hose down your right side, under the can light, up and behind your head (from the left side) and clip if off (right side D-ring) until you need it.

kyfriedchipper
10-30-2007, 02:53
If you have only a 5' hose instead of the 7', no need to route it under a light or a bag, right?

CompuDude
10-30-2007, 05:16
If you have only a 5' hose instead of the 7', no need to route it under a light or a bag, right?

Correct, the 5' hose routes under your arm and across your chest, rather than down to your waist then up across your chest.

BobbyWombat
10-30-2007, 11:15
coil it in a loose circle and clip it to the right side D-ring on the harness.

What do you use to go around the coiled hose and clip it off?

RonFrank
10-30-2007, 11:22
coil it in a loose circle and clip it to the right side D-ring on the harness.

What do you use to go around the coiled hose and clip it off?

You attach a bolt snap with a zip tie to the hose near the primary second stage. You clip it off to the right shoulder DRing. I have no idea what you mean by "go around the coiled hose". But maybe the first sentence answers your question.

BSea
10-30-2007, 11:23
I would recommend surgical tubing instead of bungee or cave line. In Salt water bungee has a tendency to chafe around the neck.To each his own I guess, but I've never noticed my bungie cord necklace in salt or fresh water.

RonFrank
10-30-2007, 11:31
Someone should add that the long hose, and necklace backup is NOT a DIR invention. Let's not confuse DIR with HOG, or Tech.

Chad
10-30-2007, 11:39
Personally I am not a big fan of using a zip tie to attach the bolt snap on your 7' hose. Zip ties are strong but they pop off quite easily when you twist or pull from the side. I tie mine on with cave line. The bolt snap hangs better and you have the option of cutting it off if you have some entanglement issue.

CompuDude
10-30-2007, 11:39
coil it in a loose circle and clip it to the right side D-ring on the harness.

What do you use to go around the coiled hose and clip it off?

As Ron mentioned, you'll simply attach a bolt snap to the hose near the reg to clip it off on a d-ring. The rest of the hose can just get coiled in one big loop around the tank valve, pretty much the same way you wear it.

I don't have a shot of my singles rig, so pardon the doubles confusion, but if you follow the hoses carefully in this shot, you'll see the reg clipped off on the left (viewer's perspective), and the long hose goes up, loops over the back of the valve, and comes back up front before going back up to the first stage on the left (again, viewer's perspective).

http://www.kalani.net/scuba/2007-08-11%20Farnsworth-Catalina/slides/IMG_4306-crop.jpg

BobbyWombat
10-30-2007, 14:03
...The rest of the hose can just get coiled in one big loop around the tank valve, pretty much the same way you wear it.


Ahhhh.....thanks CompuDude. That was exactly what I was looking for.:smiley32:

RonFrank
10-30-2007, 14:54
Personally I am not a big fan of using a zip tie to attach the bolt snap on your 7' hose. Zip ties are strong but they pop off quite easily when you twist or pull from the side.

Cave line is certainly a good option. But I've not had your experience with my Zip Ties. The one's I use have a load strength of 50lbs. I also have ones that have a load strength of 150lbs.

If you are planning on pulling hard on your second stage, than maybe the 150lbs zips are needed, but I've never had issues you discuss, in fact the opposite.

I can't generally get the darn things off without destroying the square end of the tie.

BSea
10-30-2007, 15:15
Personally I am not a big fan of using a zip tie to attach the bolt snap on your 7' hose. Zip ties are strong but they pop off quite easily when you twist or pull from the side.

Cave line is certainly a good option. But I've not had your experience with my Zip Ties. The one's I use have a load strength of 50lbs. I also have ones that have a load strength of 150lbs.

If you are planning on pulling hard on your second stage, than maybe the 150lbs zips are needed, but I've never had issues you discuss, in fact the opposite.

I can't generally get the darn things off without destroying the square end of the tie.
I think he's talking about the twisting effect on zip ties. You can snap a zip tie if you twist it. I have zip ties on some things too, but for anything that I could lose that's expensive, I use cave line.

For this application, I think a zip tie would work. 1 because you really don't clip it off that much anyway, and 2, even if it broke, you aren't going to lose the reg, just the clip.

Chad
10-30-2007, 15:19
Personally I am not a big fan of using a zip tie to attach the bolt snap on your 7' hose. Zip ties are strong but they pop off quite easily when you twist or pull from the side.

Cave line is certainly a good option. But I've not had your experience with my Zip Ties. The one's I use have a load strength of 50lbs. I also have ones that have a load strength of 150lbs.

If you are planning on pulling hard on your second stage, than maybe the 150lbs zips are needed, but I've never had issues you discuss, in fact the opposite.

I can't generally get the darn things off without destroying the square end of the tie.

I just looked at the bag the zip ties came in and they were 50# ties. Guess I should try to find some 150 pounders. The first time I inadvertently twisted the ring on the boltsnap and the zip tie popped right off. I put another zip tie on and twisted it on purpose and I can pop it off every time. It is not the tie itself that gives it is the tiny piece inside the square end. After that I switched to the cave line. Haven't had any problems since.

BobbyWombat
11-30-2007, 12:33
OK, next questions:

I am now the proud owner of a BP/W setup w/ Hog harness.

Backup lights, I've read, are to be clipped off and "tucked" out of the way. Tucked how and where, exactly?

CompuDude
11-30-2007, 13:35
OK, next questions:

I am now the proud owner of a BP/W setup w/ Hog harness.

Backup lights, I've read, are to be clipped off and "tucked" out of the way. Tucked how and where, exactly?

The normal procedure, with a proper backup, is to have a bolt snap mounted to the back of the light. It gets clipped off on your right shoulder’s d-ring (wreck and cave divers use two backups, one attached on each side), and follows the shoulder strap down towards your waist. A simple loop of inner tube (cut a 3/4" cross section of a mountain bike tire inner tube (free from flat tires at most bike shops) to make a sturdy black rubber band) holds the light head in place.

http://www.baue.org/images/albums/equipment/dringclipoff.thumb.jpg http://www.gue.com/Equipment/Config/scout-attachment-diver.jpg

texdiveguy
11-30-2007, 14:02
Post #31 picture of the rig.......
That computer transmitter sticking up is 'not a good move at all'....not a fan of wireless dive computers to begin with but that another thread....but with that unit being that high it poses a risk to entanglement and in a panic might be confused as your isolator valve.

texdiveguy
11-30-2007, 14:08
OK, next questions:

I am now the proud owner of a BP/W setup w/ Hog harness.

Backup lights, I've read, are to be clipped off and "tucked" out of the way. Tucked how and where, exactly?

The normal procedure, with a proper backup, is to have a bolt snap mounted to the back of the light. It gets clipped off on your right shoulder’s d-ring (wreck and cave divers use two backups, one attached on each side), and follows the shoulder strap down towards your waist. A simple loop of inner tube (cut a 3/4" cross section of a mountain bike tire inner tube (free from flat tires at most bike shops) to make a sturdy black rubber band) holds the light head in place.

http://www.baue.org/images/albums/equipment/dringclipoff.thumb.jpg http://www.gue.com/Equipment/Config/scout-attachment-diver.jpg

Just double check the 'rub wear' on your suit after a while in case you are using a backup light with a knurled finish....they can do some lt. to moderate wearing of the suit material.

texdiveguy
11-30-2007, 14:12
Personally I am not a big fan of using a zip tie to attach the bolt snap on your 7' hose. Zip ties are strong but they pop off quite easily when you twist or pull from the side. I tie mine on with cave line. The bolt snap hangs better and you have the option of cutting it off if you have some entanglement issue.

Been diving for years using quality zip ties with not one bad issue. They actually offer several benefits over wreck/cave line. It boils down to what you feel works best and what you are comfortable using.

CompuDude
11-30-2007, 14:25
Post #31 picture of the rig.......
That computer transmitter sticking up is 'not a good move at all'....not a fan of wireless dive computers to begin with but that another thread....but with that unit being that high it poses a risk to entanglement and in a panic might be confused as your isolator valve.

... and on a penetration dive where entanglement was a high risk factor, it would not be there. For OW dives, however, I'm not worried. Never any confusion whatsoever with the isolator. Bigtime non-issue.

Wireless AI in general is another conversation, but suffice to say it is backed up by a proper SPG.

texdiveguy
11-30-2007, 14:43
Post #31 picture of the rig.......
That computer transmitter sticking up is 'not a good move at all'....not a fan of wireless dive computers to begin with but that another thread....but with that unit being that high it poses a risk to entanglement and in a panic might be confused as your isolator valve.

... and on a penetration dive where entanglement was a high risk factor, it would not be there. For OW dives, however, I'm not worried. Never any confusion whatsoever with the isolator. Bigtime non-issue.

Wireless AI in general is another conversation, but suffice to say it is backed up by a proper SPG.

I hope others viewing your photo don't consider that transmitter location an acceptable way of rigging, because it is not. It does pose risk regardless of it being in o/w or structural overhead diving, not to mention in low/no vis could easly be mistaken by you or a dive buddy for a valued second or more as an isolator valve in an emergency. I would not try to convince you otherwise as you seem to feel comfortable with it as is...'cool'...your the one diving with it that way.

in_cavediver
11-30-2007, 17:19
Compudude,

I gotta agree with Tex. Have you considered moving the AI transmitter to the other post or adjusting your regs angle? I am not saying it'd work but I see the pic and cringe. There has to be a better solution for using it than pointing up.

CompuDude
11-30-2007, 19:48
Compudude,

I gotta agree with Tex. Have you considered moving the AI transmitter to the other post or adjusting your regs angle? I am not saying it'd work but I see the pic and cringe. There has to be a better solution for using it than pointing up.

I've toyed with the idea, but seriously, outside of a cave or a wreck, I'm not worried. The extra 2" over the isolation manifold isn't a big concern to me.

If I put on the other post, I have two option: Point it up, and have a mirror image of what I have already, or point it down, and it interferes with valve operation. Other side of the same post is occupied by the main analog SPG, and moving that anywhere else would not route well.

At some point I may put the transmitter on a hose so I can move it somewhere more convenient, but for now, I'm not worried about it. As I said, on any serious dive it'll be coming off anyway... for recreational dives in OW, I'm ok with the small risk.

texdiveguy
11-30-2007, 21:08
Compudude,

I gotta agree with Tex. Have you considered moving the AI transmitter to the other post or adjusting your regs angle? I am not saying it'd work but I see the pic and cringe. There has to be a better solution for using it than pointing up.

As I said, on any serious dive it'll be coming off anyway... for recreational dives in OW, I'm ok with the small risk.

I think it is best to look at all dives as serious...they are! You say on serious dives it comes off but its ok to assume risk during recreational o/w diving...I don't really understand that mind set.

I can see your issues with the unit being not adaptable for your first stage hose configuration. Since you do use a good SPG on your kit, why not just dump the transmitter and by doing so cleaning up your reg. making it safer for both recreational dives as well as the more advanced dives.

Enough said...good luck, be safe and have fun diving!!! :)

CompuDude
12-13-2007, 15:49
At the risk of reviving a dead thread, and an aspect that was something of a diversion from the OP's anyway, just wanted to thank you two for making me take a closer look at the transmitter.

I'm keeping it, but I'm going to move it to my other post, and point it down. It looks like it doesn't interfere with valve operation as much as I feared it would.

If it's good enough for the WKPP... ;)

http://www.gue.com/Galleries/WKPP/2007/Wakulla_april_21-22/images/42-true_wakulla_42207-19.jpg

in_cavediver
12-14-2007, 06:23
At the risk of reviving a dead thread, and an aspect that was something of a diversion from the OP's anyway, just wanted to thank you two for making me take a closer look at the transmitter.

I'm keeping it, but I'm going to move it to my other post, and point it down. It looks like it doesn't interfere with valve operation as much as I feared it would.

If it's good enough for the WKPP... ;)

http://www.gue.com/Galleries/WKPP/2007/Wakulla_april_21-22/images/42-true_wakulla_42207-19.jpg

Now all you have to do is add the RB80 and you're set!

Dive safe!!