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cyclone
11-02-2007, 21:00
What do I need for setting up a doubles? Need help...planning to dive doubles next year.

My current equipment:
Oceanic Excursion BCD
2 AL80 7.25dia

NitroWill
11-02-2007, 21:45
Why on earth are you trying to get into doubles?
Youve been certified a week and I have seen you trying to jump way ahead of your experience level. I am not trying to be disrespectful but just say the truth.

You have very few dives on your belt and you have already admitted your bouyancy, skills, and SAC need desperate work so why are you trying to jump into higher skilled things such as diving with doubles (not to mention other things Ivve seen you want to do)? Seriously, stop and think just for one second for a first. People die every week because of scuba issues - most are because they are diving beyond their experience! Do you want to be a statistic because youa re surely setting yourself up for it.

In order to move on to more experienced skills and taskloading you need to MASTER the basics first which youve made clear you have not done - and obviously with only a week certified! SLOW DOWN, DIVE, LEARN and quit rushing things - you are only going to get yourself hurt or killed.

Bring the Payne
11-02-2007, 21:58
I have to agree with Will on this one. I'd slow down and become the best you can be at your current level before moving on to something like doubles. You have your whole life to enjoy diving; no reason to rush into things you probably aren't ready for! Slow down, have fun and branch out when you get a lot more experience.

somewhereinla
11-02-2007, 22:04
Diving double is very expensive (which is really tech. diving once you go double), first you need two matching tank, then you will need a dual manifold, you will also need a drysuit or a redundant bladder if you choose to dive with a wetsuit. You will also need to get a tech. BC or most likely a BP/W. Most divers that dive double also have redundant reg. and octo. Be ready to spend thousands of dollars. Of course that doesn't include all the tech. classes you'll have to take... Know that it is really a commitment.

texdiveguy
11-02-2007, 23:26
Diving double is very expensive (which is really tech. diving once you go double), first you need two matching tank, then you will need a dual manifold, you will also need a drysuit or a redundant bladder if you choose to dive with a wetsuit. You will also need to get a tech. BC or most likely a BP/W. Most divers that dive double also have redundant reg. and octo. Be ready to spend thousands of dollars. Of course that doesn't include all the tech. classes you'll have to take... Know that it is really a commitment.

Lets clear a few points here you have made....diving 'doubles' is not technical diving. Many recreational divers dive 'doubles' for a variety of reasons. Starting from scratch you can put together a set of basic doubles for under a grand easy. You don't ness. have to take additional training to dive doubles,,,,a good mentor and practice and common sense can do wonders. For an experienced diver first trying doubles it is just a short learning curve...really a piece-of-cake.

In the case of the OP to this thread....I might suggest just getting in the 'dives' and gain some experience for now.

Puffer Fish
11-03-2007, 00:39
I would also suggest that using Al80 for doubles has a few extra issues, that one would really like to stay away from...but then I stopped diving double years ago, and just went with a bigger tank and pony...

diversteve
11-03-2007, 04:47
Need one of these for your BCD:
Authorized Dealer Locator - Oceanic Worldwide - Scuba and Snorkeling Gear, Scuba and Snorkeling Equipment and Dive Gear (http://www.buyoceanic.com/locator/?sku=08.0089)

A manifold:
Dive Rite 200 Bar Dual Manifold, DIR and Technical, Dive Rite, Dive Rite 200 Bar Dual Manifold (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=DiveRite200BarDualManifold)

A set of cylinder bands:
Highland Stainless Steel Cylinder Bands , Scuba Tanks, XS Scuba, Highland Stainless Steel Cylinder Bands (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=HighLandBands)

Almost definitely a set of Steel Tanks as 2 AL tanks will have a bigger buoyancy change going from full to empty. Could probably make the case that it would be unsafe. It's why most people dive steel doubles.
HP Steel 100 Scuba Tank High Pressure X7-100 , Scuba Tanks, Worthington, HP Steel 100 Scuba Tank High Pressure X7-100 (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=X7100)

More than likely you'll want to switch to a full metal Backplate/Wing once you feel how much the extra weight of the doubles will shift around using your BCD also. They run about $500 & up. For examples look at Diverite or OMS gear here:
DIR - Tech Scuba Equipment (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/Scuba_Dir.asp)

Someone to teach you how it all works. And help you size your tanks/weight system properly.

Cash for the overweight luggage charge if you fly anywhere to dive..:)

I agree with the previous posters, a couple hundred dives might be a cheaper solution. You may find that as your SAC rate gets better the need for doubles goes away.

After more experience you won't be asking this question as you'll know the answer.

cyclone
11-03-2007, 08:25
Yep, I agree for most of you. The experience that I need to put on my belt is just a thing behind my back. I am a quick learner, been doing stuff to the extreme. When I learned to do rock climbing, I did'nt go and train with small boulders and gym climbing. I get into this, so I climb Seneca Rocks. When I try Skydiving, I didn't go Tandem for the first time, I go solo right away. The heck if something going to happen your dead anyway just by jumping the plane unless you do something.

I don't discriminate such talent of each person and their capabilities but some person are such good at most things. Upon, having my certification I dove almost 2x a week and traveling around texas with it's Diving Lakes. And will dive more for the next and future days. Yep, the reason why I need doubles? I ask because I need it. I always learned that if your getting into it why not buy at least almost what your going to need and want. The heck why get into it if your not going to spend for the equipment, nor why get into scuba if you know the equipment are expensive and can't spend into it.

I have seen some people after getting their certificate get their equipment gather dust. And heard a lot of people they only dive like once or twice a year. As for me, I bought these equipment so I'll use it. In fact, just by getting my certification few weeks ago. I am getting my advance OW next year to the Philippines doing Deep, Wreck, and such and such. That is why I am advancing some of my equipment too. In fact, this is the experience that I am going to need and feel anyways. How to dive with doubles...? And not to worry, I will still all have my stuff for my singles. Bwa hahaha... this is like saying goodbye to the singles...I still going to dive single...

With all do respect to the people who have a lot of experience and have 1000 of dives around their belt that is your thing and I am proud you earn that. And for the Masters of the Universe divers, good you earned that too. :smiley36: Kidding aside, I am just a person who never seats still. I just have a lot of talent on my belt. I once told this to a 2x blackbelter, "get more practice"... ( while he is still recovering for a blackout on the floor ) I gave him some thing that he never learned on the floor but learned thru experience.:smiley36:

Let's stick to the topic on what I need for doubles and set aside the...your going to die...you need more experience...blah... blah... blah...:smiley36:

By the way my aluminum tank is the one that is neutrally bouyant. Will this even out the steel tanks that most of you recommends?

Neutrally Buoyant Aluminum 80 Tank, Scuba Tanks, Luxfer, Neutrally Buoyant Aluminum 80 Tank (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=AL80N)

Puffer Fish
11-03-2007, 09:12
Yep, I agree for most of you. The experience that I need to put on my belt is just a thing behind my back. I am a quick learner, been doing stuff to the extreme. When I learned to do rock climbing, I did'nt go and train with small boulders and gym climbing. I get into this, so I climb Seneca Rocks. When I try Skydiving, I didn't go Tandem for the first time, I go solo right away. The heck if something going to happen your dead anyway just by jumping the plane unless you do something.

I don't discriminate such talent of each person and their capabilities but some person are such good at most things. Upon, having my certification I dove almost 2x a week and traveling around texas with it's Diving Lakes. And will dive more for the next and future days. Yep, the reason why I need doubles? I ask because I need it. I always learned that if your getting into it why not buy at least almost what your going to need and want. The heck why get into it if your not going to spend for the equipment, nor why get into scuba if you know the equipment are expensive and can't spend into it.

I have seen some people after getting their certificate get their equipment gather dust. And heard a lot of people they only dive like once or twice a year. As for me, I bought these equipment so I'll use it. In fact, just by getting my certification few weeks ago. I am getting my advance OW next year to the Philippines doing Deep, Wreck, and such and such. That is why I am advancing some of my equipment too. In fact, this is the experience that I am going to need and feel anyways. How to dive with doubles...? And not to worry, I will still all have my stuff for my singles. Bwa hahaha... this is like saying goodbye to the singles...I still going to dive single...

With all do respect to the people who have a lot of experience and have 1000 of dives around their belt that is your thing and I am proud you earn that. And for the Masters of the Universe divers, good you earned that too. :smiley36: Kidding aside, I am just a person who never seats still. I just have a lot of talent on my belt. I once told this to a 2x blackbelter, "get more practice"... ( while he is still recovering for a blackout on the floor ) I gave him some thing that he never learned on the floor but learned thru experience.:smiley36:

Let's stick to the topic on what I need for doubles and set aside the...your going to die...you need more experience...blah... blah... blah...:smiley36:

By the way my aluminum tank is the one that is neutrally bouyant. Will this even out the steel tanks that most of you recommends?

Neutrally Buoyant Aluminum 80 Tank, Scuba Tanks, Luxfer, Neutrally Buoyant Aluminum 80 Tank (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=AL80N)

People are just worried about giving advice to someone that may take it and kill themselves with it..it is a genuine concern for anyone that asks a question like you did, without having the experience to go with the technology. It may seem to be someone telling you what and how to lead your life... don't think it was meant that way.

To your question - yea, they would solve the issue, but at a weight cost that would seem not to be worth it. Both Faber and Worthington HP Steel tanks would have lots more capacity at that same weight (check out their 100 cubic ft tanks). Even LP (a favorite of the doubles crowd) steel would be better.

For the most part, I don't know anyone that would advise someone switch a BC back and forth between doubles and singles...but I am sure there is someone out there that would.

My "suggestion" is to get a double setup (BP/W), and take a class that involves learning to use them (which you seem to be headed for anyway).

I like Faber 100's, but will bet there are more in the Worthington camp. Big technical arguement that should have it's own thread.

But there are a lot of new issues with doubles..and it appears that you are just diving in lakes and mud holes (sorry...really, I am, just cannot help myself). You need to get a better understanding of all the new issues that the ocean can bring to this.

You seem to learn fast, great, but please make sure you learn all the single tank skills before jumping to doubles... we would like to see you posting in your retirement times also.

Disneymom
11-03-2007, 09:26
Excuse me for stepping in, somewhat OT, but I believe what some of our fellow divers have been trying to point out here and in your steel tank thread is that perhaps you might want to slow down and spend some - a lot - of time perfecting your buoyancy, trim, and breathing before changing gear.
It would be a huge disservice to you if the more experienced folks around here let you charge on through with what appears to be impulsive decisions. Not that you shouldn't ask the questions. The fact is, many diving fatalities occur due to divers attempting to dive beyond their experience level. Any good DM will tell you not do dive beyond your experience, but gain experience, then work your way up to the levels that you wish to acheive.
You may be the type who doesn't like to take things slow, or sit down, and you may have a lot of talent. However, common sense goes a lot farther in this activity than talent. I hope that you are able to reach the levels you wish to acheive in diving, but also hope that you do it responsibly and safely. Good luck in your quest.

K... back on topic.

Puffer Fish
11-03-2007, 09:39
Mom... I am right behind you on this one... how far behind will depend on how much static you get for the above post.

I would have the same advise for someone that did rock climbing in Texas, and suddenly wanted to go climb the Eiger.. it is not that they cannot do it, just that they need some additional skills... to avoid being one of the 10 or so people that die there every year.

RoadRacer1978
11-03-2007, 09:52
I'm not one of the divers on here with alot of experience, so i'll keep my opinon to myself on this one. I just wanted to say thanks to all of you that do give us new divers advice and have our safety in mind. I know you have learned alot of things, sometimes the hard way, and I thank you for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. I just hope everyone reading your advice is wise enough to take it and learn from it. Again, thank you.

in_cavediver
11-03-2007, 12:16
I want to say a few things.

1) Doubles are equipment and tools, not something magical. My wife started doubles at dive 16 or 17. In many cases, doubled 45's or 50's are more comfortable than singles. If you want the tools - so be it.

2) With gear, such as high capacity tanks comes responsibility to use it withing your level of experience and training. If you lack this discipline, well, you really ought to rethink diving as a whole. Its a lot easier to get into deco troubles with doubles than singles. (singles go OOA and get other issues usually before Deco becomes the major issue)

Lastly for the buoyancy swing. Sorry Steve but your wrong in the analysis. Al tanks have generally a lower swing of full to empty because they are smaller capacity than most steel tanks. Its pure air capacity that determines the swing (80's = 12lbs swing, 104's are roughly 16 and cave filled are 20ish lbs swing). The problem many have with AL tanks is that they are positive when empty (+4lbs for an 80) and that can mean carrying more weight. It might have just been bad wording on your part - not sure.

Now, for what you need:

1) Set of matched tanks. In your case, a set of 50's, 72, 85 steels or standard AL 80's would likely be great. Small, light and easy to handle. I don't have any experience with the neutral tanks but you could try those. If diving wet, watch what type of steel tanks you use. Some are OK (50's, 72's) many are not good choices (104's. 95's, 130's etc).

2) Good set of bands. I highly recommend the highland bands.

3) Good isolation manifold for the tanks you get. It's likely the 3/4 thread but if you use older HP tanks, some have the 7/8th. Sea Elite, Dive Rite and Halcyons are all nice.

4) BC. Here, I like the BP/wing or transpac/wing over a standard back inflate. Oxycheq, Halcyon, Dive Rite, DSS and many others make nice options. I personally have Dive Rite and Halcyon gear.

5) Two DIN first stage regs, two second stages, 1 spg, 1 inflator and dry suit inflator if you have dry suit. I also HIGHLY recommend adopting the long hose hog style routing.

6) THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT: A good mentor to show you how to assemble doubles and guide you through many dives as you learn their characteristics and show you the emergency procedures with them (valve drill). Its not rocket science but it really helps to have someone who uses them mentor you. (Dry suits are the same way)

As I said, doubles are merely a tool to learn to use. Like most tools, they offer capabilities far beyond your limits to use. It's you and your experience and maturity that determines whether you are safe diver or an accident waiting to happen. Please don't be that accident.

diversteve
11-03-2007, 12:57
And I was being kind of whiny...

Iceman
11-03-2007, 13:05
I would also suggest that using Al80 for doubles has a few extra issues, that one would really like to stay away from...but then I stopped diving double years ago, and just went with a bigger tank and pony...

Doubles = Two Tanks, same size.
Bigger Tank & Pony = Two Tanks, different sizes.

Seems to me you just changed your tank sizes, not stopped diving doubles.

Not flaming; just giving an idea for you to think about.

Bring the Payne
11-03-2007, 13:33
I would also suggest that using Al80 for doubles has a few extra issues, that one would really like to stay away from...but then I stopped diving double years ago, and just went with a bigger tank and pony...

Doubles = Two Tanks, same size.
Bigger Tank & Pony = Two Tanks, different sizes.

Seems to me you just changed your tank sizes, not stopped diving doubles.

Not flaming; just giving an idea for you to think about.

Maybe Im not the best person to be commenting on this but I'd think diving doubles and diving a single plus pony is quite different.

Puffer Fish
11-03-2007, 13:39
I would also suggest that using Al80 for doubles has a few extra issues, that one would really like to stay away from...but then I stopped diving double years ago, and just went with a bigger tank and pony...

Doubles = Two Tanks, same size.
Bigger Tank & Pony = Two Tanks, different sizes.

Seems to me you just changed your tank sizes, not stopped diving doubles.

Not flaming; just giving an idea for you to think about.
Not taken as a flame... Having used doubles for several decades...it is close, and in some ways the same and in some ways different.

First is size... diving the right tank for the right job is nice to be able to do... using, say a set of double made with 72's, you have to carry around a lot of weight... and have to use both, when you may only need say 100 cubic ft.

Second is the difference between a primary and pony, versus doubles...and it depends on how you are using the doubles...one at a time versus shared. If you are using them shared.. then you are correct... no real difference...except what happens if something goes wrong. You no longer have a backup...but you do with a pony... then the identical config is doubles with a pony versus a single with a pony.

I don't do cave diving or wreck penetration anymore, so my concern with a pony is to have emergency air, to get me to the surface safely. If I did different diving, I would configure my gear differently.

When you look at weight... size (I'm a big guy, so tank size is not an issue), a single is lighter...and there are a lot of weighting issues I don't have to deal with.

Check out what a pair of al 72 doubles, with everything weighs, and compare to one 133 faber.... the difference is over 20lbs out of the water... Honestly, the 133 is heavy enough.

Lastly is cost... I typically have to pay to have my tanks filled by the tank....with the exception when in south florida and fill express. Filling two is twice the cost, as no one charges me more of a bigger tank (?)

I own three different size tanks... and use the best size for the dive...and I am not buying three sets of doubles (actually that would be 6 sets, as I have two of each)

Puffer Fish
11-03-2007, 13:40
I would also suggest that using Al80 for doubles has a few extra issues, that one would really like to stay away from...but then I stopped diving double years ago, and just went with a bigger tank and pony...

Doubles = Two Tanks, same size.
Bigger Tank & Pony = Two Tanks, different sizes.

Seems to me you just changed your tank sizes, not stopped diving doubles.

Not flaming; just giving an idea for you to think about.

Maybe Im not the best person to be commenting on this but I'd thinking diving doubles and diving a single plus pony is quite different.

Usually, and thanks for seeing that.

Puffer Fish
11-03-2007, 13:41
Oh, and I forgot equipment cost... size... space... annual inspection costs... all the gear shelping...

crpntr133
11-03-2007, 14:51
Do what you want to do but I would strongly suggest someone to at least mentor you. Diving doubles isn't rocket science but you can get hurt. Take it from experience.

Bring the Payne
11-03-2007, 15:30
I would also suggest that using Al80 for doubles has a few extra issues, that one would really like to stay away from...but then I stopped diving double years ago, and just went with a bigger tank and pony...

Doubles = Two Tanks, same size.
Bigger Tank & Pony = Two Tanks, different sizes.

Seems to me you just changed your tank sizes, not stopped diving doubles.

Not flaming; just giving an idea for you to think about.

Maybe Im not the best person to be commenting on this but I'd thinking diving doubles and diving a single plus pony is quite different.

Ive just always looked at ponies as a redundant air source for OOA emergencies and doubles as a way to increase bottom time. Is this accurate or do people use ponies for longer bottom times as well?

Usually, and thanks for seeing that.

cyclone
11-03-2007, 18:22
I want to say a few things.

1) Doubles are equipment and tools, not something magical. My wife started doubles at dive 16 or 17. In many cases, doubled 45's or 50's are more comfortable than singles. If you want the tools - so be it.

2) With gear, such as high capacity tanks comes responsibility to use it withing your level of experience and training. If you lack this discipline, well, you really ought to rethink diving as a whole. Its a lot easier to get into deco troubles with doubles than singles. (singles go OOA and get other issues usually before Deco becomes the major issue)

Lastly for the buoyancy swing. Sorry Steve but your wrong in the analysis. Al tanks have generally a lower swing of full to empty because they are smaller capacity than most steel tanks. Its pure air capacity that determines the swing (80's = 12lbs swing, 104's are roughly 16 and cave filled are 20ish lbs swing). The problem many have with AL tanks is that they are positive when empty (+4lbs for an 80) and that can mean carrying more weight. It might have just been bad wording on your part - not sure.

Now, for what you need:

1) Set of matched tanks. In your case, a set of 50's, 72, 85 steels or standard AL 80's would likely be great. Small, light and easy to handle. I don't have any experience with the neutral tanks but you could try those. If diving wet, watch what type of steel tanks you use. Some are OK (50's, 72's) many are not good choices (104's. 95's, 130's etc).

2) Good set of bands. I highly recommend the highland bands.

3) Good isolation manifold for the tanks you get. It's likely the 3/4 thread but if you use older HP tanks, some have the 7/8th. Sea Elite, Dive Rite and Halcyons are all nice.

4) BC. Here, I like the BP/wing or transpac/wing over a standard back inflate. Oxycheq, Halcyon, Dive Rite, DSS and many others make nice options. I personally have Dive Rite and Halcyon gear.

5) Two DIN first stage regs, two second stages, 1 spg, 1 inflator and dry suit inflator if you have dry suit. I also HIGHLY recommend adopting the long hose hog style routing.

6) THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT: A good mentor to show you how to assemble doubles and guide you through many dives as you learn their characteristics and show you the emergency procedures with them (valve drill). Its not rocket science but it really helps to have someone who uses them mentor you. (Dry suits are the same way)

As I said, doubles are merely a tool to learn to use. Like most tools, they offer capabilities far beyond your limits to use. It's you and your experience and maturity that determines whether you are safe diver or an accident waiting to happen. Please don't be that accident.
You nailed it...thanks a lot...:smiley20: