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View Full Version : I've got them Aluminum 80's Blues!!!



navyhmc
11-18-2007, 22:30
Getting three tanks ready for another Hydro-they are all out of VIP by a few years too.

Well, I look at the original dates, remember a thread here about older AL-80's and find all three are in the bad dates!

I have an email in to Luxfer but I have a feeling I have three very large and very pricey to replace paperweights. Any ideas what to do with tanks that you can't use anymore?

medicdiver
11-18-2007, 22:31
Make them into a table lamp. Call a recycling center to see what the going rate for aluminum is.

navyhmc
11-18-2007, 22:34
That's what I am afraid I'm going to do. I figure at 32 lbs of Al that should be about $24 per tank so it will make a little difference when I get a new tank or two-maybe make doubles?

medicdiver
11-18-2007, 22:35
I think doubles would be a good idea!!

navyhmc
11-18-2007, 22:45
Yeah, but Doubles = a lot of cash out. Don't have the geen to do it yet We'll see what Luxfer says.

medicdiver
11-18-2007, 22:47
Oh, come on! It doesn't cost that much.:smiley2:

Puffer Fish
11-19-2007, 00:41
Getting three tanks ready for another Hydro-they are all out of VIP by a few years too.

Well, I look at the original dates, remember a thread here about older AL-80's and find all three are in the bad dates!

I have an email in to Luxfer but I have a feeling I have three very large and very pricey to replace paperweights. Any ideas what to do with tanks that you can't use anymore?

I've seen the table/floor lamp.. not bad...How about just recycling the aluminum... not worth a lot, but would be good for the environment.

navyhmc
11-19-2007, 06:57
Getting three tanks ready for another Hydro-they are all out of VIP by a few years too.

Well, I look at the original dates, remember a thread here about older AL-80's and find all three are in the bad dates!

I have an email in to Luxfer but I have a feeling I have three very large and very pricey to replace paperweights. Any ideas what to do with tanks that you can't use anymore?

I've seen the table/floor lamp.. not bad...How about just recycling the aluminum... not worth a lot, but would be good for the environment.


I am going to see what Luxfer tells me and then I have a feeling that I will scrap them out. But there's a big part of me that thinks about that and I fell well empty in side-like I'm losing a friend.:smiley19:

BSea
11-19-2007, 08:04
This is another idea. If your LDS has regs they want to display, have the top 6 inches cut off. with the valve, it makes a great reg display.

Flatliner
11-19-2007, 08:28
I need both a good valve and a scrap tank to cut up for a project. Send me a PM if I can buy one for the scrap price from you...

awap
11-19-2007, 08:37
You could make a CAT 4 wind chime.

navyhmc
11-19-2007, 10:02
You could make a CAT 4 wind chime.

:smilie39: :smilie39: :smilie39: :smilie39:

We have a winner Folks!!!!!

No Misses
11-19-2007, 10:09
I have always wanted to cut one lengthwise and make a 2 planters out of the halves. That is before I saw the Cat 4 wind chime idea :-)

navyhmc
11-19-2007, 10:26
I need both a good valve and a scrap tank to cut up for a project. Send me a PM if I can buy one for the scrap price from you...

PM sent your way. I think this can be arranged.

BuzzGA
11-19-2007, 13:18
If you get enough of the tanks you could probably start a side business making CAT 4 wind chimes...Ebay all the way

RECDiver
11-19-2007, 15:39
I had three AL cylinders that I had to retire. I gave two of them to my LDS at the time and they disposed of them, but the other I am using to fill tires until the air is gone, then to the scrap heap for it as well.

navyhmc
11-19-2007, 16:22
Here's the latest:

Per Luxfer: I am having the tanks tested/hydro'd/eddy current tested and if they pass, they're usable, if they fail, they're junk. We'll see in the next week or so.

The LDS that I took them to does the eddy current so we will see. They are currently having about a 30% fail since they started eddy current testing.

I may have life left in them yet.

quasimoto
11-19-2007, 20:04
You might have issues getting some places to fill them. A friend of mine has an older AL tank with the alloy and he couldn't get it filled in FL. We tried three different LDS.

BTW, the wind chimes are cool. I have seen several pairs of them and they are neat.
Personally I would make a light for the dive section of the garage. If I had a den then I might make one for there. Pony bottles are also nice for chimes or lamps.

navyhmc
11-19-2007, 20:24
You might have issues getting some places to fill them. A friend of mine has an older AL tank with the alloy and he couldn't get it filled in FL. We tried three different LDS.

BTW, the wind chimes are cool. I have seen several pairs of them and they are neat.
Personally I would make a light for the dive section of the garage. If I had a den then I might make one for there. Pony bottles are also nice for chimes or lamps.

Were they eddy current tested? The LDS told me that they did have a few that failed eddy current that passed a vip. I would imagine that if they passed eddy current they're safe and clear to be filled.

More when I get tank #1 back. then 2 more to go.

Puffer Fish
11-19-2007, 20:55
You might have issues getting some places to fill them. A friend of mine has an older AL tank with the alloy and he couldn't get it filled in FL. We tried three different LDS.

BTW, the wind chimes are cool. I have seen several pairs of them and they are neat.
Personally I would make a light for the dive section of the garage. If I had a den then I might make one for there. Pony bottles are also nice for chimes or lamps.

Were they eddy current tested? The LDS told me that they did have a few that failed eddy current that passed a vip. I would imagine that if they passed eddy current they're safe and clear to be filled.

More when I get tank #1 back. then 2 more to go.
Most places will not fill them, regardless of if they passed eddy current testing. That test, is at best only around 60% accurate. There are exceptions.. a place here, a place there.. but most would take the ST approach or the fill express approach and not fill them.

This is a fairly good review of the situation:

Fill Express -- Frequently Answered Questions About Filling Aluminum 6351-T6 SCUBA Cylinders (http://www.fillexpress.com/library/al6351.shtml)

quasimoto
11-20-2007, 20:02
Were they eddy current tested? The LDS told me that they did have a few that failed eddy current that passed a vip. I would imagine that if they passed eddy current they're safe and clear to be filled.

More when I get tank #1 back. then 2 more to go.

They were eddy tested and had the sticker on the tank to prove that they passed eddy and the vip. They still wouldn't fill it. He has found one LDS that will fill it but it is a pain anyplace else.
The way most of the locals in Fl talked it was a standard rule that if it was eddy tested then they wouldn't fill it.

navyhmc
11-20-2007, 21:42
Interesting. Hopefully here in the midwest I will be able to get a fill-if not, hello 120 steel!

quasimoto
11-21-2007, 19:50
I would be prepared to buy the steels. My buddy lives in KY and has had issues with getting it filled locally. Of course it isn't an issue anymore since he bought a compressor a couple of months ago.

DiveSooner
11-21-2007, 20:37
Make a "butt" tank out of them, for all you smokers out there... I've seen them before at LDS.

navyhmc
11-26-2007, 12:50
And it is good news.

According to Luxfer and the DOT final rules on the 6051 tanks there is not going to be a "No longer use" rule or the proposed "40 year rule" for the older AL-80 tanks. The only requirement is the Eddy Current testing to check for the onset of Sustained Load Cracks.

Also, A lot of the local and area shops will fill them if they are current on a eddy current test.

Now for a couple more eddy current tests and I'm still in business!


ETA: The DOT/Hazmat bulletin: 993

Puffer Fish
11-26-2007, 13:02
And it is good news.

According to Luxfer and the DOT final rules on the 6051 tanks there is not going to be a "No longer use" rule or the proposed "40 year rule" for the older AL-80 tanks. The only requirement is the Eddy Current testing to check for the onset of Sustained Load Cracks.

Also, A lot of the local and area shops will fill them if they are current on a eddy current test.

Now for a couple more eddy current tests and I'm still in business!


ETA: The DOT/Hazmat bulletin: 993
I would still replace them... knowing it is a 1 in 10,000 chance.. that is not one I would want someone else to take for me....

navyhmc
11-26-2007, 13:22
And it is good news.

According to Luxfer and the DOT final rules on the 6051 tanks there is not going to be a "No longer use" rule or the proposed "40 year rule" for the older AL-80 tanks. The only requirement is the Eddy Current testing to check for the onset of Sustained Load Cracks.

Also, A lot of the local and area shops will fill them if they are current on a eddy current test.

Now for a couple more eddy current tests and I'm still in business!


ETA: The DOT/Hazmat bulletin: 993
I would still replace them... knowing it is a 1 in 10,000 chance.. that is not one I would want someone else to take for me....

I've been doing a lot of research in the past week on the issue of SLC. So far, what I have found is: The failure rate is a round 1.8 per 100,000. There have been 14 documented catastrophic failures. There have not been any injuries assosiated with the failures. Of the documoneted failures, all have been in either rental or dive charter tanks with the average SLC failure tank having in excess of 8,000 fills.

I'm going to give them a shot since eddy, EIP and Hydro costs les than new tanks. But I'll see where it goes from here.

teknitroxdiver
12-07-2007, 18:53
I posted this idea on Scubaboard waaaaay back in the day:

Cut the top 6" off the tank. Use a hinge to re-mount the top so it hinges open and closed. Put a mailbox latch on the opposite side and a red flag as well. Then mount it as your mailbox; pull on the valve to open it, etc etc. Even better with a custom airbrush finish.

PsychDiver
12-11-2007, 06:35
And it is good news.

According to Luxfer and the DOT final rules on the 6051 tanks there is not going to be a "No longer use" rule or the proposed "40 year rule" for the older AL-80 tanks. The only requirement is the Eddy Current testing to check for the onset of Sustained Load Cracks.

Also, A lot of the local and area shops will fill them if they are current on a eddy current test.

Now for a couple more eddy current tests and I'm still in business!


ETA: The DOT/Hazmat bulletin: 993
I would still replace them... knowing it is a 1 in 10,000 chance.. that is not one I would want someone else to take for me....

I've been doing a lot of research in the past week on the issue of SLC. So far, what I have found is: The failure rate is a round 1.8 per 100,000. There have been 14 documented catastrophic failures. There have not been any injuries assosiated with the failures. Of the documoneted failures, all have been in either rental or dive charter tanks with the average SLC failure tank having in excess of 8,000 fills.

I'm going to give them a shot since eddy, EIP and Hydro costs les than new tanks. But I'll see where it goes from here.

While I always think safety first - does this sounds like another way to get us to spend our hard earned cash by trying to scare us into believing that if we don't do this we or someone will die? It sounds like I have a better chance of dying in an accident on the way to the lake than someone from SLC so I better not go or I better buy that new armored vehicle that will preserve my life in the unlikely event that I have an automobile failure.

DarinMartell
12-11-2007, 09:00
If I am looking online at used tanks what do I need to know in order not to by one of these unfillable tanks?

navyhmc
12-11-2007, 09:13
The original hydro date must be after june 1988. I would say if you have a tank that was made/original hydro 1989 or newer is safe.

Before buying a used tank, I would specifically ask about that date.

in_cavediver
12-11-2007, 16:58
And it is good news.

According to Luxfer and the DOT final rules on the 6051 tanks there is not going to be a "No longer use" rule or the proposed "40 year rule" for the older AL-80 tanks. The only requirement is the Eddy Current testing to check for the onset of Sustained Load Cracks.

Also, A lot of the local and area shops will fill them if they are current on a eddy current test.

Now for a couple more eddy current tests and I'm still in business!


ETA: The DOT/Hazmat bulletin: 993
I would still replace them... knowing it is a 1 in 10,000 chance.. that is not one I would want someone else to take for me....

I've been doing a lot of research in the past week on the issue of SLC. So far, what I have found is: The failure rate is a round 1.8 per 100,000. There have been 14 documented catastrophic failures. There have not been any injuries assosiated with the failures. Of the documoneted failures, all have been in either rental or dive charter tanks with the average SLC failure tank having in excess of 8,000 fills.

I'm going to give them a shot since eddy, EIP and Hydro costs les than new tanks. But I'll see where it goes from here.

While I always think safety first - does this sounds like another way to get us to spend our hard earned cash by trying to scare us into believing that if we don't do this we or someone will die? It sounds like I have a better chance of dying in an accident on the way to the lake than someone from SLC so I better not go or I better buy that new armored vehicle that will preserve my life in the unlikely event that I have an automobile failure.

Its a real problem. The fact that there is a revised procedure and discussions about whether a recall was in order confirm it. Also realize, its not you who is in danger, its the fill operator and this is where the issue becomes troublesome.

Many dive shops are no longer filling these tanks, irregardless of hydro/visual eddy test dates. It just doesn't make fiscal sense to take a risk on a low/zero/negative margin item like an airfill. The higher risk low reward equation. Even more so since 6061 tanks and steels are common alternitives.

It may suck if you own a 6351 tank but you can't fault an LDS for doing whats in thier best interest.

PsychDiver
12-11-2007, 21:18
Yes In Cave Diver. I agree with you. I was just being devils advocate. Remember safety first. If it is a real threat than by all means it should be addressed. The fact that their are no incidents that have resulted in injury yet doesn't mean that it can't happen. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But, in doing so lets make sure that a real problem exists. And that the proper boundary is made to protect anyone working with high pressure. It can be taken too far. Some could use this to be a rational for eliminating all AL tanks.

FroggDVR
12-11-2007, 22:39
I have 2 Luxfer tanks with dates before 1988. They have always passed hydro's and an eddy test.

I fill tanks for the LDS I teach out of and have no problem filling these tanks.

finflippers
12-11-2007, 23:21
And it is good news.

According to Luxfer and the DOT final rules on the 6051 tanks there is not going to be a "No longer use" rule or the proposed "40 year rule" for the older AL-80 tanks. The only requirement is the Eddy Current testing to check for the onset of Sustained Load Cracks.

Also, A lot of the local and area shops will fill them if they are current on a eddy current test.

Now for a couple more eddy current tests and I'm still in business!


ETA: The DOT/Hazmat bulletin: 993
I would still replace them... knowing it is a 1 in 10,000 chance.. that is not one I would want someone else to take for me....

I've been doing a lot of research in the past week on the issue of SLC. So far, what I have found is: The failure rate is a round 1.8 per 100,000. There have been 14 documented catastrophic failures. There have not been any injuries assosiated with the failures. Of the documoneted failures, all have been in either rental or dive charter tanks with the average SLC failure tank having in excess of 8,000 fills.

I'm going to give them a shot since eddy, EIP and Hydro costs les than new tanks. But I'll see where it goes from here.


There has been injuries.
About the Scuba Tank that Exploded (http://www.napsd.com/cscuba.htm)

I do not know if the tanks that have exploded was properly inspected or not.

What I have noticed is that not all visual inspections are created equally. Some places do a more through job at it then others. If the tank is inspected by a qualified technician using the right tools then it should be good but many times you might just get someone that works at a shop that has no real training on what he is looking at.

navyhmc
12-12-2007, 01:35
Thanks for posting that. From the text, definitely sounds like a sustained load crack failure to me. I will have to re-think a little. A do some more looking.

A few things that make me wonder-not saying anyone giving info is being misleading-but what was it that made a tank that was not filled suddenly have a failure? It couldn't have been terribly hot even though it was FL-it was after all Feb, couldn't have been more than 75*. I wonder how cold the water was. In short the question that isn't answered and probably never will is why did the tank fail at that particular time?

The picts of the tank are spectacular, I will say that.

WD8CDH
12-12-2007, 12:08
And what's the failure rate of steel tanks? Are they really any safer than aluminum tanks made from the "wrong" alloy? The only tank that I have personally seen that had failed dangerously was steel.

in_cavediver
12-12-2007, 17:20
And what's the failure rate of steel tanks? Are they really any safer than aluminum tanks made from the "wrong" alloy? The only tank that I have personally seen that had failed dangerously was steel.

The root of the problem is not failure, its the mechanism of failure. DOT requires HP cylinders to have a leak before fail mechanism. 3AA steel tanks have a very long history of safe use in diving and industry. 6061 has a shorter history but equally safe in this regard. 6351 has shown to not live up to the leak before fail requirement due to SLC. This is the reason for the concern.

Are there exceptions - yep. There are a lot of old lined steel tanks or rubber coated laying around with significant corrosion. You fill one of those, it will be a bomb. The rub is that those tanks would fail a visual inspection and hydro. (DOT visual). The 6351 tank can pass hydro/visual and blow up in a week.

aggie99
01-02-2008, 00:41
I took an alum 80 to a metal recycling center and got $25 bucks! I would say it was worth the trip for ~$50. Then you can just go and buy a real table lamp that the wife won't hate!