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schu1842
11-26-2007, 18:20
I'm thinking about adding another steel tank to my gear. What is everyone's opinion on brand and high pressure vs. low pressure.

CompuDude
11-26-2007, 18:53
Salt water - best choice is hot dipped galvanized, so Worthington is the only option in current production.

Fresh water - any good make is fine. Fabers and Worthingtons are both very well regarded. (others less so)

HP vs. LP: Ask your LDS. If HP fills are readily available in the areas you will be diving, I vastly prefer HP over LP. If HP fills are NOT available, LP is the way to go. Note that if "cave fills" (super high overfills going into supposedly LP tanks) are readily available in your area, if you wish to take the gamble (very few reported problems, but it's still your risk) are available in your area, LP tanks get another tick in the plus column. It's generally safer to overfill LP tanks, and generally NOT safe to overfill HP tanks.

IMHO, the best all-around steel tank is the Worthington HP100. There are certainly applications where another tank might be a better choice, but for the majority of general diving circumstances, the HP100 generally takes the crown.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
11-26-2007, 19:08
Supposedly Faber is *the* name in steel pressure cylinders but many think the Worthingtons are better at resisting corrosion. I don't know. I'm in the market for some steel tanks. I think I'll get a larger HP tank (120 or more) and not worry about getting a short fill.

in_cavediver
11-26-2007, 19:27
Personally, I favor the LP104. My PST's have been faithful to me for many years and many hydros I mean cave fills.

Now, for the best all around steel tank ..... Well what ya gonna do with it?

OW single tank - LP85/HP100
Tec - dbl 85/100 or 95/98/104
Cave - biggest you can trim, carry and handle provided they are suitable to the environment. Lots of 104/130, 121/149's and 85/100's.
Man factor - Heiser 190. (190cft at 4400psi, 87lbs on land, -47lbs empty -62lbs full)

quasimoto
11-26-2007, 19:47
Personally, I favor the LP104. My PST's have been faithful to me for many years and many hydros I mean cave fills.

Now, for the best all around steel tank ..... Well what ya gonna do with it?

OW single tank - LP85/HP100
Tec - dbl 85/100 or 95/98/104
Cave - biggest you can trim, carry and handle provided they are suitable to the environment. Lots of 104/130, 121/149's and 85/100's.
Man factor - Heiser 190. (190cft at 4400psi, 87lbs on land, -47lbs empty -62lbs full)

190's!!!! HOLLY COW!!

I think compudude covered it rather well so I won't go any further. But I will add that no matter what steel tank you get you are probably going to have troubles getting it filled RIGHT. So far LP's seem to be better at getting a full fill.

I own 4 Worthington tanks..2 LP85's and doubled LP77's. I like the 85's better since they are hot dipped. I have had the 77's for less than a year and the first time I got them out I rubbed the galvanized off on a rubber mat. With any luck a coat of ZRC will take care of that for a while.
I have heard that Worthington will take care of a tank if it is hot dipped and you manage to peal the coating. Of course this wouldn't apply if you damaged the tank.

cummings66
11-26-2007, 20:13
All I can say is right now I'd make sure my tank was hot dip galvanized. Worthington makes the tank for other companies as well as themselves so you don't necessarily need to buy that brand name. But, if it's a hot dipped galvanized tank that's probably what you're getting.

As to HP vs LP. It's a tough decision, I'm still making it. I have 3 HP steel tanks and wonder if I want a LP tank. I honestly don't know for sure, I like HP because they're lighter for the same volume of air. I like LP because I know I can get a full fill, but would not count on cave fills because I doubt I could find a shop to do that. I have speant a year or more trying to decide and I honestly can't make up my mind. If I could make all my tanks the same what would it be? I love the HP 100's, almost a perfect tank no matter how you slice it. But, LP's have some advantages, decisions decisions and this one I can't quite nail right now.

You have to decide what you're going to do with it and go from there. One of my dive buddies has LP steel 80's that he's got doubled up, that's a nice combo.

Puffer Fish
11-27-2007, 06:12
Salt water - best choice is hot dipped galvanized, so Worthington is the only option in current production.

Fresh water - any good make is fine. Fabers and Worthingtons are both very well regarded. (others less so)

HP vs. LP: Ask your LDS. If HP fills are readily available in the areas you will be diving, I vastly prefer HP over LP. If HP fills are NOT available, LP is the way to go. Note that if "cave fills" (super high overfills going into supposedly LP tanks) are readily available in your area, if you wish to take the gamble (very few reported problems, but it's still your risk) are available in your area, LP tanks get another tick in the plus column. It's generally safer to overfill LP tanks, and generally NOT safe to overfill HP tanks.

IMHO, the best all-around steel tank is the Worthington HP100. There are certainly applications where another tank might be a better choice, but for the majority of general diving circumstances, the HP100 generally takes the crown.
It used to be that Faber were not galvanized, that is not the case with the FX series... From a corrosion point of view, they are better than the Worthington's now.

And with some waiting, can be had for far less money...

cheebaweebie
11-27-2007, 10:44
I dive worthington steel 120's... LOVE EM.

CompuDude
11-27-2007, 13:15
It used to be that Faber were not galvanized, that is not the case with the FX series... From a corrosion point of view, they are better than the Worthington's now.

And with some waiting, can be had for far less money...

Are you claiming Faber FX series tanks are hot dip galvanized under that coat of paint? I'd love to see a source for that, because it would be very interesting if true. I'm not quite sure I believe it, though.

fireflock
11-27-2007, 13:41
I'm probably going to catch it for this, but don't buy LP tanks. Buy a 3442 service pressure tank instead. If you want to use a tank at Low Pressures, buy a 3442 series and don't fill it all the way.

I have PST's and a Faber. I'm convinced that the hot-dipped galvanized is the way to go for salt water. At the same time, when I was buying a 3rd tank for occasional use the price difference was hard to ignore.

Either is probably fine, but you might also want to stay away from tanks that are super negative when empty (like -8 or so) unless you have a special reason to get one.

You might also want to give some thought to tank diameter (7.25 vs 8"). In some places it's hard to find a boat with tank racks for 8" tanks. In other parts of the world it's no problem.

Rich

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
11-27-2007, 13:52
I believe the Faber tanks are cold galvanized with white epoxy paint.

The truth is both types of steel tanks will give many years of corrosion free service when they receive proper care.

The Worthington process is supposed to be less eco-friendly if that matters to you.

CompuDude
11-27-2007, 14:01
I took a brand new pair of Faber FX100 doubles to the dive park a few months ago. As I left the fill station, I heard the fill monkeys moving my tanks toward the whips.

There is a large paint-less swath on the underside of my doubles now, and there are a pair of white streaks on the cement there that will probably wash away soon.

I couldn't say no to the price I scored the Fabers for, but my future tanks are going to be hot dipped galv from now on.

I take good care of my tanks, but I can't expect to be 100% in control at all times. The Worthington's are more idiot-proof, by far.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
11-27-2007, 14:20
Ouch. Unfortunately nothing is idiot proof. I'm sure you know but perhaps others don't that you need to touch that up with cold galvanizing compound or rust inhibiting paint.

navyhmc
11-27-2007, 18:52
I took a brand new pair of Faber FX100 doubles to the dive park a few months ago. As I left the fill station, I heard the fill monkeys moving my tanks toward the whips.

There is a large paint-less swath on the underside of my doubles now, and there are a pair of white streaks on the cement there that will probably wash away soon.

I couldn't say no to the price I scored the Fabers for, but my future tanks are going to be hot dipped galv from now on.

I take good care of my tanks, but I can't expect to be 100% in control at all times. The Worthington's are more idiot-proof, by far.

That would definitely make my pissed off list. That's one reason why I always put a boot on my tanks. Don't have double yet, but I have feeling I will on them too when I get them.

Puffer Fish
11-27-2007, 19:26
I took a brand new pair of Faber FX100 doubles to the dive park a few months ago. As I left the fill station, I heard the fill monkeys moving my tanks toward the whips.

There is a large paint-less swath on the underside of my doubles now, and there are a pair of white streaks on the cement there that will probably wash away soon.

I couldn't say no to the price I scored the Fabers for, but my future tanks are going to be hot dipped galv from now on.

I take good care of my tanks, but I can't expect to be 100% in control at all times. The Worthington's are more idiot-proof, by far.
Wonder what they would have dragged them over.. just went out and tried that on my concrete floor.. don't get anything on the floor, but I can lightly see where they were dragged (surface scratches is all). I even tried the 133, just to see if there is a weight issue.

If you did that with a Worthington, you would remove the zinc... which would leave a spot that rusts.. you still have the zinc under the paint (which is extremely hard powder paint, by the way)

in_cavediver
11-27-2007, 19:31
I'm probably going to catch it for this, but don't buy LP tanks. Buy a 3442 service pressure tank instead. If you want to use a tank at Low Pressures, buy a 3442 series and don't fill it all the way.


My only problem with the 3442 tanks is the cost. I just looked online and a 130 is going for $400 bucks! I picked up a PAIR of new faber LP85's for that a few years back.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, a tank is merely a tool. Match its characteristics (height, weight, buoyancy, trim, capacity) to your needs and you'll be happy. No tank is inherently better than any other, just different. (OK, exclude the 6351 Al tanks from that last comment)

CompuDude
11-27-2007, 19:35
I took a brand new pair of Faber FX100 doubles to the dive park a few months ago. As I left the fill station, I heard the fill monkeys moving my tanks toward the whips.

There is a large paint-less swath on the underside of my doubles now, and there are a pair of white streaks on the cement there that will probably wash away soon.

I couldn't say no to the price I scored the Fabers for, but my future tanks are going to be hot dipped galv from now on.

I take good care of my tanks, but I can't expect to be 100% in control at all times. The Worthington's are more idiot-proof, by far.
Wonder what they would have dragged them over.. just went out and tried that on my concrete floor.. don't get anything on the floor, but I can lightly see where they were dragged (surface scratches is all). I even tried the 133, just to see if there is a weight issue.

If you did that with a Worthington, you would remove the zinc... which would leave a spot that rusts.. you still have the zinc under the paint (which is extremely hard powder paint, by the way)

Outside concrete, like on a sidewalk. Rougher than sandpaper.

Zinc, while not perfect, can self-heal to a certain extent. Cold finishes cannot, nor can paint.

Puffer Fish
11-27-2007, 20:06
I took a brand new pair of Faber FX100 doubles to the dive park a few months ago. As I left the fill station, I heard the fill monkeys moving my tanks toward the whips.

There is a large paint-less swath on the underside of my doubles now, and there are a pair of white streaks on the cement there that will probably wash away soon.

I couldn't say no to the price I scored the Fabers for, but my future tanks are going to be hot dipped galv from now on.

I take good care of my tanks, but I can't expect to be 100% in control at all times. The Worthington's are more idiot-proof, by far.
Wonder what they would have dragged them over.. just went out and tried that on my concrete floor.. don't get anything on the floor, but I can lightly see where they were dragged (surface scratches is all). I even tried the 133, just to see if there is a weight issue.

If you did that with a Worthington, you would remove the zinc... which would leave a spot that rusts.. you still have the zinc under the paint (which is extremely hard powder paint, by the way)

Outside concrete, like on a sidewalk. Rougher than sandpaper.

Zinc, while not perfect, can self-heal to a certain extent. Cold finishes cannot, nor can paint.
Ok, let me attempt to set this straight... first off, I'm a chemical engineer, who does coatings... many of which are in common use for corrosion protection.

A trolling motor, for example, can pass 4,000 hours of salt spray, with a scribe down to the steel, without showing any rust. Hot dipped is gone in less than 1,000.

It has a organic zinc coating (self healing by the way) and a urethane over it. Transformers use the same technology in southern florida and the keys...

There are lots of different "cold" processes for applying zinc, including zinc plating, organic zincs and several mechanically applied zinc's...and zinc is zinc...it is self healing by it's very nature (zinc, when forming zinc oxide swells considerably. Organic Zinc's, dispite what 50 year old technology supporters might think, is by far and away the winner for long life and protections. But, it cost a lot more than hot dipping a part in a vat of melted zinc.

Zinc is also very soft, no harder than the white powder paint on the Faber. But under that white powder is another layer of zinc..

I could choose either tanks, and I have Faber, partially because they are using a far better technology.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
11-27-2007, 20:16
Not pulling the punches.
:smilie40:

I really like the Faber FX series, but I'd be quite happy if someone gave me Worthington HP tanks.


Here's a proposal: all you who have Faber and don't like them can sell them to me for half price. All the rest who don't like Worthingtons can sell those to me for half price.


On the HP/LP question I'd rather underfill HP tanks than overfill LP tanks.


Post #250 by the way. Yeah. Maybe I'll buy me a set of Worthingtons from Scuba Toys.

Puffer Fish
11-27-2007, 20:28
Not pulling the punches.
:smilie40:

I really like the Faber FX series, but I'd be quite happy if someone gave me Worthington HP tanks.


Here's a proposal: all you who have Faber and don't like them can sell them to me for half price. All the rest who don't like Worthingtons can sell those to me for half price.


On the HP/LP question I'd rather underfill HP tanks than overfill LP tanks.


Post #250 by the way. Yeah. Maybe I'll by me a set of Worthingtons from Scuba Toys.
Hey, they should sell them to me first... really...and I agree on the HP versus LP... I wish I had more XF 133's, as I find that tank near perfect...even when under filled.

tedwhiteva
11-27-2007, 20:28
Post #250 by the way. Yeah. Maybe I'll by me a set of Worthingtons from Scuba Toys.

Nice job - I thought I'd seen you and your daughter a lot! Congrats:smiley20:

Puffer Fish
11-27-2007, 20:50
I have a set of Sea Hornet supper steel tanks. I think there made in Germany & rebranded in Oz.

the specs:

Approval Specifications:
RL 97-23-EG. (CE)
Manufacturing Process:
Extruded Seamless Tube
Material:
Chrome Molybdenum Alloy Steel
Primer: Hot zink to 60 micron.
Finish: 2 part polyurethane
Internal Finish:
Chemically treated with
Ferrous Phosphate

Puffer Fish, do you know anything about the Ferrous Phosphate internal finish. Would be interested to know if all tanks use it & if not how it compares (corrosion wise) with the internal finish of other tanks.


Silly question, of course I know..but asking me a question usually involves getting a lot more information than one wants.

We know the product here as iron phosphate... it seems the ferrous/ferric is too complex for us.

First off, the outside coating is very good. Coating over the zinc will more than double it's life and as zinc is a sacrificial materal, it actually protects the steel all over the product.

There are two primary types of surface protection.. zinc is an excellent example of using a material that sacrifices itself over the steel. The second type is any material that isolates the surface from oxidation. Ferrous Oxide is one of these.

It offers absolutely no protection, other than as a barrier, which is a good thing. It does not take mechical abrasion well (but the inside of the tank should not be an issue), it is completely non-reactive...and if damaged, would represent no danger to the user.

Chrome Moly steel tends to surface rust, more than pit, so the objective is to coat the surface with something that minimizes this.

If you zinc plated it, the gradual zinc oxide formation would come off and you would be breathing it.

Looking inside the Faber tanks, I believe they are doing the same thing... and I am amazed every annual inspection, just how clean they look.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
11-27-2007, 21:47
PufferFish, do you find the larger diameter of the FX133 to ever cause problems on boats. Around here we seem to have limited spaces that will accomodate the larger diameter tanks. Had trouble with an Aluminum 100 once. That's the reason I've been thinking about the FX120 over the 130 and the 133.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
11-27-2007, 21:51
OT




Post #250 by the way. Yeah. Maybe I'll by me a set of Worthingtons from Scuba Toys.

Nice job - I thought I'd seen you and your daughter a lot! Congrats:smiley20:

I've been too busy posting to find a decent avatar :smiley2:

Actually my daughter was thrilled to see her picture online.

Puffer Fish
11-28-2007, 04:14
PufferFish, do you find the larger diameter of the FX133 to ever cause problems on boats. Around here we seem to have limited spaces that will accomodate the larger diameter tanks. Had trouble with an Aluminum 100 once. That's the reason I've been thinking about the FX120 over the 130 and the 133.
Yup, they can be a pain sometimes... have learned to sort of deal with it... and you may be correct on it being easier to use the 120..but at least two of the boats I go out on a lot have made provisions for me and several others...so it is not bad everywhere.

CompuDude
11-28-2007, 13:36
PufferFish, do you find the larger diameter of the FX133 to ever cause problems on boats. Around here we seem to have limited spaces that will accomodate the larger diameter tanks. Had trouble with an Aluminum 100 once. That's the reason I've been thinking about the FX120 over the 130 and the 133.
Yup, they can be a pain sometimes... have learned to sort of deal with it... and you may be correct on it being easier to use the 120..but at least two of the boats I go out on a lot have made provisions for me and several others...so it is not bad everywhere.

This must be an east coast thing or something. I've seen them when traveling (to warm water locations where they have nothing but Al.80s), but I don't think I've ever seen a tank-size-specific slot on any local boats here in SoCal.

Some are more doubles-friendly than others, but no issues with 8" tanks.

fireflock
11-28-2007, 14:09
I've not had any problems in North Carolina - they see 8" tanks all the time. I have had problems in Florida. Sometimes there are only a handful of 8" tank spots on the boat.

Rich

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
11-28-2007, 14:59
I only had a problem once. Actually more of an inconvenience than a problem. Was able to dive.