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LRDWILDER
12-14-2007, 10:09
I have used both in the past, and am looking for opinions...Lately I hav forgone the safe second for my Z2 octo but I'm heading out on a trip and have considered just using the DouAir instead...what are peoples thoughts?

SarahBella
12-14-2007, 11:49
For now I use the Octo-I dive with my husband and two sons primarily and like to make the back up easy to get. We all took the class together and we all trained with an octopus-maybe someday down the road I will upgrade to the inflator/octo to streamline the rig but for now the octo works for me.

CompuDude
12-14-2007, 12:15
Safe Second is just another term for octo. I assume you mean Air2-style combo inflator/octos.

I prefer an octo/full secondary reg. Saving one hose is not worth the loss of flexibility in an emergency, and combo units are more complicated to operate when actually in service... the last thing you want in an emergency. Chording buttons on the reg in your mouth to manage buoyancy while ascending lock-arm with another diver is not an easy skill under easy conditions, let along in the middle of a real emergency.

cheebaweebie
12-14-2007, 13:15
I agree with compudude. My buddy has a integrated safe second combo inflator on his BC. I have seen him break it 1x and ruin a dive but I guess that can happen with any gear you have. Also the buttons can malfunction. Go with what your comfortable with but at the expense of saving a hose I prefer the octo.

MSilvia
12-14-2007, 13:27
I like to have two of the same second stage, regardless of whether or not I'm diving with two first stages. I have no interest whatsoever in downgrading my backup to a subjectively more difficult to manage and objectively lower performance regulator in order to gain a questionable improvement in streamlining over wearing a bungied 2nd stage.

CompuDude
12-14-2007, 13:35
I like to have two of the same second stage, regardless of whether or not I'm diving with two first stages. I have no interest whatsoever in downgrading my backup to a subjectively more difficult to manage and objectively lower performance regulator in order to gain a questionable improvement in streamlining over wearing a bungied 2nd stage.

I think it's safe to say they are objectively harder to operate, not merely subjectively. Harder to what degree is debatable, but I don't think anyone can honestly say there is NO difference in complexity between managing your buoyancy by chording buttons on the regulator in your mouth, and managing your buoyancy normally while breathing on a regular regulator.

I'll accept that it's not a huge difference in complexity, but then, the supposed gain isn't exactly a huge difference either, and anything to reduce task loading in an emergency is good.

cheebaweebie
12-14-2007, 14:00
It's like when diving I would rather have simplicity and durability vs. complexity. I spearfish alot and am constantly beating up my gear... With alot of things to think about one less thing is comfort. You guys who do all the cave diving and technical diving with trimix ... Now there is complexity. I read about all the saftey gear and stuff you guys carry. Wow...

MSilvia
12-14-2007, 14:06
It's like when diving I would rather have simplicity and durability vs. complexity. I spearfish alot and am constantly beating up my gear... With alot of things to think about one less thing is comfort.
I'm unclear on whether you're saying you think an integrated second stage/inflator is more or less complex and durable than a non-integrated second stage.

texdiveguy
12-14-2007, 14:07
Safe Second is just another term for octo. I assume you mean Air2-style combo inflator/octos.

I prefer an octo/full secondary reg. Saving one hose is not worth the loss of flexibility in an emergency, and combo units are more complicated to operate when actually in service... the last thing you want in an emergency. Chording buttons on the reg in your mouth to manage buoyancy while ascending lock-arm with another diver is not an easy skill under easy conditions, let along in the middle of a real emergency.

I am with CompuDude on this one!

cheebaweebie
12-14-2007, 14:17
I personally think the non integrated octo is less complex. If your integrated breaks then you lose your safe second and BC inflator. If your Octo breaks then screw back in the nut to the first stage and keep diving.



It's like when diving I would rather have simplicity and durability vs. complexity. I spearfish alot and am constantly beating up my gear... With alot of things to think about one less thing is comfort.
I'm unclear on whether you're saying you think an integrated second stage/inflator is more or less complex and durable than a non-integrated second stage.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
12-14-2007, 14:36
Yes, just this weekend we had a guy in dry suit class accidentally inflate his BC when attempting to share air with his buddy. I don't like the octo-inflators. My octo is a high performance second stage. It's not tunable like my primary, and it has a yellow face. Those are the only differences.

BSea
12-14-2007, 16:51
I have used both, and currently use a standard octo bungied around my neck. I really don't see anything wrong with octo/inflators for rec diving. I still have 1 for trips when I want things simple. Are they a little more complicated? Yes. But can you use one safely. Well, that depends on how much you practise. Either can be a problem if you don't practise using them from time to time.

loudgonzo
12-14-2007, 19:30
a questionable improvement in streamlining over wearing a bungied 2nd stage.

My setup includes the more traditional second stage octo, but am curious to know just how much of a difference is there in "streamlining"? Is one hose going to make a noticeable improvement?

rfreddo
12-14-2007, 20:05
Not all to long ago there was a fatality here in Texas when a young girl and her father were practicing buddy breathing / air sharing. I don't recall many of the details, other than they were practicing in extremely poor vis. I apologize if I've got the facts screwed up. In any event, even if this incident didn't happen exactly as I've recounted it, it could happen. Seems she had no reg in her mouth at one point, couldn't find dad in the murk and panicked. As a result she couldn't find either her primary or octo. Wonder what she (or he) would have given for a source of air conveniently draped over her left shoulder? My guess is she would have traded "too many buttons" and the "possibility of a malfunction" for one last breath of air in that circumstance.

Not trying to convince anyone of anything. But, I do wish these "if you use an octo/inflator you're nuts" threads would lighten up. We all have preferences. And I certainly agree that for technical diving and the like standardization is key. I don't know, but I assume that not too many father / teenage daughter tech diving teams are practicing air sharing drills out there. If they are, then by all means, go with the separate octo if that's what's required for the types of dives they do.

Bottom line, from my perspective, is there is no rec dive that is too important to cancel if something goes wrong, whether it be with my primary, my octo or my octo/inflator. It's just not worth the risk. To say that it's a benefit to have a separate octo because if it craps out you can just plug the first stage is not, in my mind, an appropriate mindset for rec diving. Does the buddy get a say in this circumstance? If you're solo diving, you're outside what I would consider basic OW rec diving, so the same rules don't apply and I would agree that an octo/inflator may not be appropriate.

So, if the message is really "If you use an octo/inflator UNDER CONDITIONS THAT MAKE IT UNSAFE you're nuts." I agree completely. Just let's not bash on the methods those of us who enjoy true rec diving employ to help highten our diving experience.

CompuDude
12-14-2007, 21:19
But, I do wish these "if you use an octo/inflator you're nuts" threads would lighten up.

I didn't see anyone saying that.

MSilvia
12-14-2007, 21:49
Wonder what she (or he) would have given for a source of air conveniently draped over her left shoulder?I seriously doubt that she would have cared if the air came from her shoulder or from a mermaid's kiss, just so long as she got a breath.

What I read from this isn't that she would have been saved if her air source was draped over her shoulder, it's that she would have been saved if she knew where her air supply was located. Whether that be on her power inflator, on a necklace, or on the front of her BC is, in my mind, immaterial. It's either panic or a lack of mastry of fundamental skills that was at issue here, not the choice of gear. Last time I checked, every open water student has to competently demonstrate a lost regulator recovery before they get certified. If this girl didn't have the presence of mind to do that, what makes you think she'd have had the presence of mind to breathe from her inflater?

MSilvia
12-14-2007, 22:00
My setup includes the more traditional second stage octo, but am curious to know just how much of a difference is there in "streamlining"? Is one hose going to make a noticeable improvement?
It depends on how you have your hose routed, and how much of it "flaps in the breeze" as you dive, but I'd say it ranges anywhere from "almost no difference" to "a slight difference".

Splitlip
12-14-2007, 22:45
Wonder what she (or he) would have given for a source of air conveniently draped over her left shoulder?I seriously doubt that she would have cared if the air came from her shoulder or from a mermaid's kiss, just so long as she got a breath.

What I read from this isn't that she would have been saved if her air source was draped over her shoulder, it's that she would have been saved if she knew where her air supply was located. Whether that be on her power inflator, on a necklace, or on the front of her BC is, in my mind, immaterial. It's either panic or a lack of mastry of fundamental skills that was at issue here, not the choice of gear. Last time I checked, every open water student has to competently demonstrate a lost regulator recovery before they get certified. If this girl didn't have the presence of mind to do that, what makes you think she'd have had the presence of mind to breathe from her inflater?

Many new and experienced divers alike lose track of their standard octos. You often see them dragging or floating about, particulary after entry.
The diver in need, in panic, lacking mastery or perhaps just experiencing a sensory overload, may not be thinking about her octo until she needs it.
She does know she needs to breath. IMO, if she has been minimally trained to breath off her octo inflator, she will. And she will find it hanging right where she remembers it as she uses it to adjust her buoyancy during the dive.
The big "what if" I have mentioned before: another diver with an OOA emergency approaches this same diver who has "lost" her standard octo. When he can't find her octo, ...well, you know where I am going wiht that.

dannybot
12-15-2007, 08:54
If you use an octo/inflator, and you share air, the primary diver must be the one to use the octo. The hose is too short and stiff to share. I saw a couple last summer trying to do the opposite and you should have seen it, it looked like an underwater wrestling match! sad thing is, if they had paid attention during the briefing, there were tanks at the safety stop they could have used, rather than sharing anyway.

Splitlip
12-15-2007, 08:59
Interesting that you mention that.

One of the locals here had an OOA diver (not his buddy) take his octo inflator instead of his primary. Making the best of a bad situation, the guy chose not to switch regs and was able to surface safely!

wheelman
12-15-2007, 09:58
I'm with CompuDude...

mm2002
12-15-2007, 10:04
I suppose I can see having an octo inflator, but I think I'd still want my standard octo there too. I'd imagine that it's impossible to have too many sources of air.

VeniceDiver
12-15-2007, 15:58
I use both, octo & airsouce at one time. But i hate having that dangiling octo back there. If you feel confident with how to properly use your Equipment either of the back ups will work. You can never be to safe:smiley20:

cheebaweebie
12-16-2007, 09:56
overall I guess it whatever works for U is the approach to take. I prefer the octo vs. the inflator but that's me. It doesn't get in my way and I ensure it is secure once I hit the water. If your buddy does need an octo during the dive you don't have to worry about removing your primary and giving it to him / her and putting the integrated in your mouth vs. just pulling out the octo and handing it over. Ease of use and less steps to take. Use what your comfortable with that fits you type of diving I would say is the proper approach.

Goober
12-16-2007, 12:27
I use the Air 2. It is just a personal preferance for me. I have noticed that, FOR ME in a share air situation it is much easier for me to control our accent if I blow all the air in my BC and literally swim us up, establishing proper bouyancy around 18-15' for a possible safety stop or at the surface and there I'm inflating both BCs.

Right around 20' I always noticed that as air in both BCs starts to really expand again, if your not really careful or possibly extreamly experianced (the later I'm not) both of you rush to the surface uncontrolably. Blowing MY BC, I have found really regulates this as well as eliminates for those first few seconds the need to try and establish bouyancy that is going to change rapidly on accent anyway. Now like I said, this is just my preferance.

I tell everyone that I dive with at the surface if you need air TAKE MY REG! I also like for both of us to do a quick practice of it when we get down, it only takes a minute and I'm never in such a rush I can't practice certain skills. I personally like to flood and clear my mask and do a mask removal and clear on every dive. That's just anal old me.

I was always tought by divemasters to be aware that an out of air diver is highly likely to approach you rapidly looking to go for your reg anyway. To be prepared if yours gets plucked from your mouth to use your own octo for a minute until both can stop, think, breath and react to the situation.

I've grown very acustomed to having my Air 2 there on my inflator. However, I purchased my own BCD, Reg and computer right after OW. In fact I dove my gear on my check outs. I also breath my Air 2 for a bit and just hold my reg in my hand, everytime I go diving, just to stay in tune with it.

I just happen to prefer the Air 2. I think every diver needs to dive what they are comfortable with. For most it's an Octo, and after all if that is what my dive buddy (who ever it is) is comfortable with, then by all means that is what I want them using!

I do like the fact that it makes things a bit more streamlined as well, as tech is beaconing me. But I can see no huge advantage over an octo.

PsychDiver
12-17-2007, 01:28
I have both an Air/2 and octo. I have noticed when I teach alternate airsource with an octo/inflator divers have much more difficulty keeping the primary in their mouth after getting it from their buddy. They manage but it is obvious that they struggle at it more. Buddy teams with an octo/inflator need to practice the ascent hold real close and real TIGHT to keep the primary from being pulled out of the their buddy's mouth.

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
12-17-2007, 08:30
When I first started diving I'd often grab my snorkel to control bouancy. (I no longer strap a snorkel to my mask). With an octo-inflator I wonder whether there is any risk of accidentally trying to breath from the snorkel. Probably small unless you are extremely stressed, but it would be a very nasty surprise if it happened.

MSilvia
12-17-2007, 09:02
I'd imagine that it's impossible to have too many sources of air.
Pretty much, unless having so much stuff creates new problems for you.

I just happen to prefer the Air 2. I do like the fact that it makes things a bit more streamlined as well, as tech is beaconing me.
You may find you have trouble locating a tech instructor who'll be comfortable with you diving an Air2. It isn't the typical tech diver's means of streamlining... 2nd stage regs on a long hose and bungied backup is, and it's likely that's what they'll train you to use.

mm2002
12-17-2007, 09:27
When I first started diving I'd often grab my snorkel to control bouancy. (I no longer strap a snorkel to my mask). With an octo-inflator I wonder whether there is any risk of accidentally trying to breath from the snorkel. Probably small unless you are extremely stressed, but it would be a very nasty surprise if it happened.


I never thought of that, but I suppose under extreme stress I could see it as a possibility. Scary.

Puffer Fish
12-17-2007, 10:03
When I first started diving I'd often grab my snorkel to control bouancy. (I no longer strap a snorkel to my mask). With an octo-inflator I wonder whether there is any risk of accidentally trying to breath from the snorkel. Probably small unless you are extremely stressed, but it would be a very nasty surprise if it happened.


I never thought of that, but I suppose under extreme stress I could see it as a possibility. Scary.

Never seen anyone confuse a snorkel for a reg, but I suppose it is possible...I have seen people inflate when they meant to deflate and the reverse...and while I have an Air2, dumping vest air and breathing is a bit more complex.

The two things I always recommend is that the two divers get close, and the donor control the accent. I have never liked the face to face approach, as the primary reg is not a good position for the OOA person, I normally use a right side, holding the tank band for the donor. The only issue that has, is dumping the air in the OOA person's vest...which usually gets missed in the process. That also may mean blowing air into their vest (if they are actually out of air) for a safety stop... and doing that on the surface...

mm2002
12-17-2007, 10:30
When I first started diving I'd often grab my snorkel to control bouancy. (I no longer strap a snorkel to my mask). With an octo-inflator I wonder whether there is any risk of accidentally trying to breath from the snorkel. Probably small unless you are extremely stressed, but it would be a very nasty surprise if it happened.


I never thought of that, but I suppose under extreme stress I could see it as a possibility. Scary.

Never seen anyone confuse a snorkel for a reg, but I suppose it is possible...I have seen people inflate when they meant to deflate and the reverse...and while I have an Air2, dumping vest air and breathing is a bit more complex.

The two things I always recommend is that the two divers get close, and the donor control the accent. I have never liked the face to face approach, as the primary reg is not a good position for the OOA person, I normally use a right side, holding the tank band for the donor. The only issue that has, is dumping the air in the OOA person's vest...which usually gets missed in the process. That also may mean blowing air into their vest (if they are actually out of air) for a safety stop... and doing that on the surface...


You just reminded me of something kinda strange. In OW class I remember taking turns with my buddy pretending to be OOA, giving the octo, then doing a CSA. There were absolutely no teachings of the other factors as you mentioned. At no time did we receive any training on inflating or deflating our OOA buddies BC, controlling ascent rate, who's in charge of ascent, safety stop, etc. In a real OOA situation, those things would be very important, and should be practiced in any OW class. Another thing was the fact that my buddy and I were right next to each other, and knew who was going to be OOA, and the one simulating that had a chance to take a full breath, remove the reg, then have the octo immediately offered from very close range. In a real situation, the buddies may not be quite so close together, nor be looking right at each other at that moment in time, nor may the OOA person have a full breath of air. That makes me really want to practice some of those scenarios in shallow water until things can be acted upon as quickly as possible, then practice the buddy ascents in deeper water until they are second nature. Man, lots of things to work on.
Sorry to get off topic a bit, but you really made me think with that one.

Splitlip
12-17-2007, 11:16
I have both an Air/2 and octo. I have noticed when I teach alternate airsource with an octo/inflator divers have much more difficulty keeping the primary in their mouth after getting it from their buddy. They manage but it is obvious that they struggle at it more. Buddy teams with an octo/inflator need to practice the ascent hold real close and real TIGHT to keep the primary from being pulled out of the their buddy's mouth.

Which is why I am a fan of the octo length (40") primary hose, routed under the arm. Eliminates the "hose halo" too.

Puffer Fish
12-17-2007, 12:24
When I first started diving I'd often grab my snorkel to control bouancy. (I no longer strap a snorkel to my mask). With an octo-inflator I wonder whether there is any risk of accidentally trying to breath from the snorkel. Probably small unless you are extremely stressed, but it would be a very nasty surprise if it happened.


I never thought of that, but I suppose under extreme stress I could see it as a possibility. Scary.

Never seen anyone confuse a snorkel for a reg, but I suppose it is possible...I have seen people inflate when they meant to deflate and the reverse...and while I have an Air2, dumping vest air and breathing is a bit more complex.

The two things I always recommend is that the two divers get close, and the donor control the accent. I have never liked the face to face approach, as the primary reg is not a good position for the OOA person, I normally use a right side, holding the tank band for the donor. The only issue that has, is dumping the air in the OOA person's vest...which usually gets missed in the process. That also may mean blowing air into their vest (if they are actually out of air) for a safety stop... and doing that on the surface...


You just reminded me of something kinda strange. In OW class I remember taking turns with my buddy pretending to be OOA, giving the octo, then doing a CSA. There were absolutely no teachings of the other factors as you mentioned. At no time did we receive any training on inflating or deflating our OOA buddies BC, controlling ascent rate, who's in charge of ascent, safety stop, etc. In a real OOA situation, those things would be very important, and should be practiced in any OW class. Another thing was the fact that my buddy and I were right next to each other, and knew who was going to be OOA, and the one simulating that had a chance to take a full breath, remove the reg, then have the octo immediately offered from very close range. In a real situation, the buddies may not be quite so close together, nor be looking right at each other at that moment in time, nor may the OOA person have a full breath of air. That makes me really want to practice some of those scenarios in shallow water until things can be acted upon as quickly as possible, then practice the buddy ascents in deeper water until they are second nature. Man, lots of things to work on.
Sorry to get off topic a bit, but you really made me think with that one.
I have never been so lucky as to have someone actually OOA "ask" for my regulator...I have for other less serious issues, but in the real deal, they tend to just take first and ask questions later.

Puffer Fish
12-17-2007, 12:29
I have both an Air/2 and octo. I have noticed when I teach alternate airsource with an octo/inflator divers have much more difficulty keeping the primary in their mouth after getting it from their buddy. They manage but it is obvious that they struggle at it more. Buddy teams with an octo/inflator need to practice the ascent hold real close and real TIGHT to keep the primary from being pulled out of the their buddy's mouth.

Which is why I am a fan of the octo length (40") primary hose, routed under the arm. Eliminates the "hose halo" too.
I struggle with that issue... having always taught with a Poseidon, which can be used from either side, it never was a concern... but longer is not your friend, if they are too far away to control the situation.

Note: anytime you are the donor, you are, be definition "in control", or should be.

I suspect 40" is ok, but not much longer.

I would normally dump their vest and control accent by swimming, and use my vest on the safety stop... however, I have had to d that with a diver (not my buddy) that was so over weighted as to make that impossible. As he was out of air, the only other option was to manually inflate his vest...

CompuDude
12-17-2007, 12:53
I just happen to prefer the Air 2. I do like the fact that it makes things a bit more streamlined as well, as tech is beaconing me.
You may find you have trouble locating a tech instructor who'll be comfortable with you diving an Air2. It isn't the typical tech diver's means of streamlining... 2nd stage regs on a long hose and bungied backup is, and it's likely that's what they'll train you to use.

Seconded. For tech, most instructors are going to insist on a long hose rig with short bungied backup and 7' primary.

CompuDude
12-17-2007, 12:55
When I first started diving I'd often grab my snorkel to control bouancy. (I no longer strap a snorkel to my mask). With an octo-inflator I wonder whether there is any risk of accidentally trying to breath from the snorkel. Probably small unless you are extremely stressed, but it would be a very nasty surprise if it happened.

I never thought of that, but I suppose under extreme stress I could see it as a possibility. Scary.

Never seen anyone confuse a snorkel for a reg, but I suppose it is possible...I have seen people inflate when they meant to deflate and the reverse...and while I have an Air2, dumping vest air and breathing is a bit more complex.

The two things I always recommend is that the two divers get close, and the donor control the accent. I have never liked the face to face approach, as the primary reg is not a good position for the OOA person, I normally use a right side, holding the tank band for the donor. The only issue that has, is dumping the air in the OOA person's vest...which usually gets missed in the process. That also may mean blowing air into their vest (if they are actually out of air) for a safety stop... and doing that on the surface...

Work as a DM and sit in on some OW classes. Mistaking a snorkel for a regulator or inflator happens on a distressingly regular basis.

I've even seen it happen using DM classes, let alone OW. The DM Candidate was demonstrating skills, this happened to be the 5 point Ascent, and did everything perfectly... except he did the entire ascent holding his snorkel up.

Goober
12-17-2007, 15:05
I just happen to prefer the Air 2. I do like the fact that it makes things a bit more streamlined as well, as tech is beaconing me.
You may find you have trouble locating a tech instructor who'll be comfortable with you diving an Air2. It isn't the typical tech diver's means of streamlining... 2nd stage regs on a long hose and bungied backup is, and it's likely that's what they'll train you to use.

Seconded. For tech, most instructors are going to insist on a long hose rig with short bungied backup and 7' primary.

Funny, both tech instructors and owners of my LSD have never mentioned it and have no problem with the rig I'm diving, wondering why they have not mentioned this? Both know that I'm tech bound. They are both cave junkies. I've heard of divers even bungying a second reg around there neck. Never seen it though. Hmmnn....the oddaties.

CompuDude
12-17-2007, 15:41
I just happen to prefer the Air 2. I do like the fact that it makes things a bit more streamlined as well, as tech is beaconing me.
You may find you have trouble locating a tech instructor who'll be comfortable with you diving an Air2. It isn't the typical tech diver's means of streamlining... 2nd stage regs on a long hose and bungied backup is, and it's likely that's what they'll train you to use.

Seconded. For tech, most instructors are going to insist on a long hose rig with short bungied backup and 7' primary.

Funny, both tech instructors and owners of my LSD have never mentioned it and have no problem with the rig I'm diving, wondering why they have not mentioned this? Both know that I'm tech bound. They are both cave junkies. I've heard of divers even bungying a second reg around there neck. Never seen it though. Hmmnn....the oddaties.

Ask what they use for themselves when cave diving. Not what they're trying to sell you at this point in your diving. You're likely to find they use a bungied backup and long hose primary.

Puffer Fish
12-17-2007, 15:49
When I first started diving I'd often grab my snorkel to control bouancy. (I no longer strap a snorkel to my mask). With an octo-inflator I wonder whether there is any risk of accidentally trying to breath from the snorkel. Probably small unless you are extremely stressed, but it would be a very nasty surprise if it happened.

I never thought of that, but I suppose under extreme stress I could see it as a possibility. Scary.

Never seen anyone confuse a snorkel for a reg, but I suppose it is possible...I have seen people inflate when they meant to deflate and the reverse...and while I have an Air2, dumping vest air and breathing is a bit more complex.

The two things I always recommend is that the two divers get close, and the donor control the accent. I have never liked the face to face approach, as the primary reg is not a good position for the OOA person, I normally use a right side, holding the tank band for the donor. The only issue that has, is dumping the air in the OOA person's vest...which usually gets missed in the process. That also may mean blowing air into their vest (if they are actually out of air) for a safety stop... and doing that on the surface...

Work as a DM and sit in on some OW classes. Mistaking a snorkel for a regulator or inflator happens on a distressingly regular basis.

I've even seen it happen using DM classes, let alone OW. The DM Candidate was demonstrating skills, this happened to be the 5 point Ascent, and did everything perfectly... except he did the entire ascent holding his snorkel up.

Ah... not sure how to respond to this...except to comment that I have "sat in on several OW classes", and classes at just about every level. I can also tell you that, while no student of mine has ever made that mistake, if they did, it would not result in a "Pass". I find it a sad comment that even an ow water student would make that mistake, let alone anyone taking higher level training.

But it does go to the point of knowing what and how to use the gear you have...to the point where it is automatic.

Puffer Fish
12-17-2007, 15:53
I just happen to prefer the Air 2. I do like the fact that it makes things a bit more streamlined as well, as tech is beaconing me.
You may find you have trouble locating a tech instructor who'll be comfortable with you diving an Air2. It isn't the typical tech diver's means of streamlining... 2nd stage regs on a long hose and bungied backup is, and it's likely that's what they'll train you to use.

Seconded. For tech, most instructors are going to insist on a long hose rig with short bungied backup and 7' primary.

Funny, both tech instructors and owners of my LSD have never mentioned it and have no problem with the rig I'm diving, wondering why they have not mentioned this? Both know that I'm tech bound. They are both cave junkies. I've heard of divers even bungying a second reg around there neck. Never seen it though. Hmmnn....the oddaties.

Ask what they use for themselves when cave diving. Not what they're trying to sell you at this point in your diving. You're likely to find they use a bungied backup and long hose primary.
If they don't, I would not take classes from them. I consider the long hose absolutely essential for cave diving.

Goober
12-17-2007, 15:56
Maybe the lines looped around their head? Are the 7' primary or secondary you are refering to. In fact I'm sure of it. As well as a reg attatched to something around the neck. Attatched are 2 pics as close as I can get for you. One coming out, and one going in, any explaination as to what you see will be fine...can't find a bungy though.

Puffer Fish
12-17-2007, 16:05
Maybe the lines looped around their head? Are the 7' primary or secondary you are refering to. In fact I'm sure of it. As well as a reg attatched to something around the neck. Attatched are 2 pics as close as I can get for you. One coming out, and one going in, any explaination as to what you see will be fine...can't find a bungy though.
You have it correct.. the bungy part is the connection around the neck of their secondary (Octo), the primary is the long hose. Pretty standard setup.

CompuDude
12-17-2007, 16:10
Maybe the lines looped around their head? Are the 7' primary or secondary you are refering to. In fact I'm sure of it. As well as a reg attatched to something around the neck. Attatched are 2 pics as close as I can get for you. One coming out, and one going in, any explaination as to what you see will be fine...can't find a bungy though.

The bungie is there. It's the black necklace holding their secondaries in place. You can see it in both of the shots if you look closely (especially the second). Both are diving long hose primaries also. Very standard rig from pretty much every agency at this point, as puffer noted.

It concerns me a bit that they sold you an octo/inflator combo when you have a stated goal of cave diving. They know the rig you WILL be using at that level, yet sold you gear that is going to need replacing once you get there.

Splitlip
12-17-2007, 16:34
Maybe the lines looped around their head? Are the 7' primary or secondary you are refering to. In fact I'm sure of it. As well as a reg attatched to something around the neck. Attatched are 2 pics as close as I can get for you. One coming out, and one going in, any explaination as to what you see will be fine...can't find a bungy though.

The bungie is there. It's the black necklace holding their secondaries in place. You can see it in both of the shots if you look closely (especially the second). Both are diving long hose primaries also. Very standard rig from pretty much every agency at this point, as puffer noted.

It concerns me a bit that they sold you an octo/inflator combo when you have a stated goal of cave diving. They know the rig you WILL be using at that level, yet sold you gear that is going to need replacing once you get there.

ditto that. And I am a fan (kind of) of octo/inflators in certain applications, although i wear my alternate on a necklace.

Splitlip
12-17-2007, 16:39
Maybe the lines looped around their head? Are the 7' primary or secondary you are refering to. In fact I'm sure of it. As well as a reg attatched to something around the neck. Attatched are 2 pics as close as I can get for you. One coming out, and one going in, any explaination as to what you see will be fine...can't find a bungy though.


If I may comment on these pics as well. Yes long hose and bungied necklace.

But split fins???

I am a fan of splits, but not where lines are being run, nor in confined environments where the frog is the prefered kick. Looks like cave country.

Where were the pics taken?

http://forum.scubatoys.com/attachments/regulators/1057d1197928476t-safe-second-octo-pics327_095.jpg (http://forum.scubatoys.com/attachments/regulators/1057d1197928476-safe-second-octo-pics327_095.jpg)http://forum.scubatoys.com/attachments/regulators/1058d1197928476t-safe-second-octo-pics327_069.jpg (http://forum.scubatoys.com/attachments/regulators/1058d1197928476-safe-second-octo-pics327_069.jpg)

mm2002
12-17-2007, 17:19
've even seen it happen using DM classes, let alone OW. The DM Candidate was demonstrating skills, this happened to be the 5 point Ascent, and did everything perfectly... except he did the entire ascent holding his snorkel up.

Hard to imagine that something like the absence of buttons, or the feel in general wouldn't have clued him in.

CompuDude
12-17-2007, 18:50
've even seen it happen using DM classes, let alone OW. The DM Candidate was demonstrating skills, this happened to be the 5 point Ascent, and did everything perfectly... except he did the entire ascent holding his snorkel up.

Hard to imagine that something like the absence of buttons, or the feel in general wouldn't have clued him in.

Chalk it up to the stress of a testing situation where you know every move is being analyzed and you're over-thinking every tiny little step. And in a pool, for demonstration, you're not necessarily actually trying to push the buttons to rise up 7 feet. But the fact remains, it can happen, and not just to new divers.

mm2002
12-17-2007, 19:28
've even seen it happen using DM classes, let alone OW. The DM Candidate was demonstrating skills, this happened to be the 5 point Ascent, and did everything perfectly... except he did the entire ascent holding his snorkel up.

Hard to imagine that something like the absence of buttons, or the feel in general wouldn't have clued him in.

Chalk it up to the stress of a testing situation where you know every move is being analyzed and you're over-thinking every tiny little step. And in a pool, for demonstration, you're not necessarily actually trying to push the buttons to rise up 7 feet. But the fact remains, it can happen, and not just to new divers.


So it was in a pool, and he didn't actually have to use the buttons? Still hard to imagine, but I believe it. It's amazing what our minds do under stress. Just wow.

Goober
12-18-2007, 02:56
Maybe the lines looped around their head? Are the 7' primary or secondary you are refering to. In fact I'm sure of it. As well as a reg attatched to something around the neck. Attatched are 2 pics as close as I can get for you. One coming out, and one going in, any explaination as to what you see will be fine...can't find a bungy though.


If I may comment on these pics as well. Yes long hose and bungied necklace.

But split fins???

I am a fan of splits, but not where lines are being run, nor in confined environments where the frog is the prefered kick. Looks like cave country.

Where were the pics taken?

http://forum.scubatoys.com/attachments/regulators/1057d1197928476t-safe-second-octo-pics327_095.jpg (http://forum.scubatoys.com/attachments/regulators/1057d1197928476-safe-second-octo-pics327_095.jpg)http://forum.scubatoys.com/attachments/regulators/1058d1197928476t-safe-second-octo-pics327_069.jpg (http://forum.scubatoys.com/attachments/regulators/1058d1197928476-safe-second-octo-pics327_069.jpg)

Devils ear/ eye down at Ginnie Springs in Fl.