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Grin
12-20-2007, 14:44
How about practicing for screw ups that are bound to happen some day.

1.What if you jump in and get one breath and find your tank valve is off. Can you turn it on while you hold your breath? You need to be able to do this, and you should test yourself. It is actually fairly easy in the water, but I cannot do it out of the water with my rig. Sane goes for the pony bottle. You m ay always dive with it on, but it is possible soemone might do you a favor and think they are turni git on for you and then you find out it's off at the worst time. You gotto be ready for this situation and be able to turn it on. My pony is mounted upsidown these days and I can simply reach back and turn it on. In any last resort case of a valve not on, you can always rip the BC off and turn the valve on, then worry about putting your BC on if neccessary.
2. What will you do if your BC bladder pops. You need to be able to accend nice and stable without dumping all your weights in a panic. There are lots of ways to do this and different settups will vary how you do it. Many can probably just swim hard and get it done. Sending a float up on a reel then pulling yourself up, is a easy out if this happens and you have that settup with you. Or filling a float attached to your BC and letting air out as you accend works also.
3. What if you loose your mask. Can you make a safe accent without it. This is probably nothing that needs practiced. But you might just remove your mask underwater and see if you can read your computer screen. Just so you know what info you might have, or not have, with no mask. If you can see your depth meter, and/or verify your accent rate, your good to go.
4. Can you stay afloat easily if you have to float for a couple hours or a day. Meaning you don't have to kick much, or at all, to stay at the right profile. I was lost for awhile once, and I carry a bunch of 25 lb lift sausages/fish floats. Those things came in real handy as I blew up two of them and put one under each arm. It was like sitting in a Lazy Boy and I could have sat there for a day or two without kicking once.
5. What do you do if your inflator sticks on? You disconnect the inflator hose ASAP. Practice this. It happens alot. It has never happened to me but it is a common situation. If you are not prepared, it could easily be a trip to the chamber for you, as you will rocket to the surface and could get bent. Some companies make little thingies to make this a easy task with gloves on. I have one made by DSS. They are like a dollar or two.
6. What if your computer goes dead on you while in a dive? Obviously your going up now! Basically, you need to be able to accend at a correct rate with no gauge to tell you if your rocketing to the surface or going back down. I think most of us have watched all the little critters or the floatasm in the water coulmn while accending. That stuff is a good indicator of if your moving up or down, in most cases. You should be able to use that suspended particle matter to accend nice and controled / slow. You also will have no idea how much time has passed and if your computer is air interated you will have no idea how much air is left in the tank. Can you handle it?
7 ??? I can't think of any other situations right now, but I'm always ready to hear others ideas of what you should practice or at least think about how to deal with situations. In diving the smallest issue can completely ruin you. The stuck inflator situation is so simple, but if you never thought about it, you may not know what the hell is happening before it's too late and your a baloon on the surface and off to the chamber.

MSilvia
12-20-2007, 15:31
1.What if you jump in and get one breath and find your tank valve is off.
I switch to my backup reg and turn it on again. No big deal, even if I have to do it on a breath hold.


2. What will you do if your BC bladder pops. Sending a float up on a reel then pulling yourself up, is a easy out if this happens and you have that settup with you.
Trying to climb #36 line to the surface while too negative to swim your rig up? You're joking, right? Have you ever actually tried that? It sounds like crazy talk to me... there are too many ways it could go wrong, and has no clear advantage I can see over keeping the bag with you and simply using it to control your buoyancy.

In any case, using a lift bag or SMB wouldn't rate any better than plan C for me. If my wing failed, I'd control buoyancy with my dry suit. If my wing and drysuit have both been punctured beyond use, THEN I'll consider a bag.


3. What if you loose your mask.

If it's a dive I can't easily abort, I put on my backup mask. Otherwise, I abort the dive and use either a buddy or the smallest bubbles I can see as a reference to estimate my ascent rate.


4. Can you stay afloat easily if you have to float for a couple hours or a day.
It wouldn't be the first time.


5. What do you do if your inflator sticks on?

I disconnect it. I have a "top hat" shaped thing that makes it easy to disconnect with thick gloves on.


6. What if your computer goes dead on you while in a dive?
Generally speaking, I abort the dive. Usually there's nothing I need to know at that point that I need a computer for. If I have a planned deco obligation, I'll have a backup analog gauge and timer for the stops.


7. I can't think of any other situations right now, but I'm always ready to hear others ideas of what you should practice or at least think about how to deal with situations.
Here are a few for you: What if your dive buddy loses consciousness or goes into convulsions from CNS toxicity? What if you get caught in a stiff current? What if you have to vomit at depth? What if your reg free flows or ices up? What if your drysuit floods? What if you get entangled in something you can't see? What if you lose a fin? What if you do everything right, but feel DCS symptoms post dive? What if you have to get a private boat ready for a helicopter evacuation? What if you have to signal a search team? At night? What if you get the Heebie Jeebies? What if you really have to poop, and there's no head on the boat? What if you need first aid, or CPR, or oxygen? What if you have to call for help on a VHF radio because (for example) you surfaced to find the captain unconscious? What if you blow an o-ring? What if your buddy completely loses it and panics at depth? What if you can't find the mooring line/boat? What if there aren't enough snacks for everyone??

Navy OnStar
12-20-2007, 16:05
1.What if you jump in and get one breath and find your tank valve is off.

This should never happen if you do a thorough predive check of your and your buddies gear, as you should.


2. What will you do if your BC bladder pops.

With a weight integrated BC I can ditch half or all of my weights. if I can't swin up, then ditch half, if I still can't then ditch all.



3. What if you loose your mask. Can you make a safe accent without it.

I only carry one mask. Stay below my smallest bubbles.



4. Can you stay afloat easily if you have to float for a couple hours or a day.
Ditch all my weights. Even without a BC, a wetsuit will hold you up quite nicely. Got dropped off in Pensacola bay for about an hour while waiting for a helicopter to pick me up. Never had to inflate my vest because I was so bouyant. (Fully clothed in boots/flightsuit/flightgear)


5. What do you do if your inflator sticks on? You disconnect the inflator hose ASAP. Practice this. It happens alot.

Jet Dump at the end of the inflator hose. They are designed to be able to release air faster than the inflator can pump it in.


6. What if your computer goes dead on you while in a dive? Obviously your going up now! Basically, you need to be able to accend at a correct rate with no gauge to tell you if your rocketing to the surface or going back down. You also will have no idea how much time has passed and if your computer is air interated you will have no idea how much air is left in the tank. Can you handle it?


I have a buddy, that's what they're there for! I have an AI computer and have a SPG backup.

MSilvia: If you don't bring enough snacks.....well that's inexcusable. You should be shot with a speargun and used for chum!

WaScubaDude
12-20-2007, 16:40
Pre Dive Plan
o Dive/health concerns & Emergency plan
o Who will lead & how
o How to follow the leader
o Lost Dive Buddy (DB) Procedure
o Where exactly to dive
o Maximum Depth
o Depth of Safety Stop
Either DB can call off dive anytime for any reason!

Air Management
o Turn around PSI or Bottom time
o PSI to Go to Safety Stop
o PSI to Surface
o Hand signals for each
PSI based on diver with the lowest PSI reading!

Before Entry
o Gear Check you & DB
o Hand Signal Review
o BC Inflate & Deflate(s) you & DB
o How to ditch(s)weights you & DB
o Air on full?
o 3 breaths on your reg
o 3 breaths on DB Oct
o Gauge check

In Water Skill Drills
o Descend together
o Correct Weighting
o Correct Trim
o Perfect Buoyancy
o OOA Octo deploy
o OOA Buddy Breathe (BB)
o DB Octo to surface
o Mask Flood & Clear
o Mask Removal & Replace
o Free flow reg resolutions
o Free flow reg ascent
o Free flow shut down and BB
Do UW drills at a depth of 15ft or less!

o At surface: Inflate DB BC & ditch weights

in_cavediver
12-20-2007, 17:47
1.What if you jump in and get one breath and find your tank valve is off.

This should never happen if you do a thorough predive check of your and your buddies gear, as you should.

Variation - Corrosion from the tank clogs the mesh filter on your reg. Surface seems OK. Nothing at depth.



2. What will you do if your BC bladder pops.

With a weight integrated BC I can ditch half or all of my weights. if I can't swin up, then ditch half, if I still can't then ditch all.
Bad move. As a basic rec diver, you shouldn't ever be to negative to swim it up. The problem of ditching half the weight at depth is at 10-15', you to light and you polaris through the most dangerous part of the ascent.

Another option is to use the 'good' part of the wing to trap some air to help swim it up.

When you get to the surface, then ditch your weight.



3. What if you loose your mask. Can you make a safe accent without it.

I only carry one mask. Stay below my smallest bubbles.



4. Can you stay afloat easily if you have to float for a couple hours or a day.
Ditch all my weights. Even without a BC, a wetsuit will hold you up quite nicely. Got dropped off in Pensacola bay for about an hour while waiting for a helicopter to pick me up. Never had to inflate my vest because I was so bouyant. (Fully clothed in boots/flightsuit/flightgear)


5. What do you do if your inflator sticks on? You disconnect the inflator hose ASAP. Practice this. It happens alot.

Jet Dump at the end of the inflator hose. They are designed to be able to release air faster than the inflator can pump it in.
Not every BC has it. Every agency I know of teaches you to dump while disconnecting.



6. What if your computer goes dead on you while in a dive? Obviously your going up now! Basically, you need to be able to accend at a correct rate with no gauge to tell you if your rocketing to the surface or going back down. You also will have no idea how much time has passed and if your computer is air interated you will have no idea how much air is left in the tank. Can you handle it?


I have a buddy, that's what they're there for! I have an AI computer and have a SPG backup.

I agree, losing a computer is not an emergency. It just means you turn around now and end the dive safely. Use you buddies if available to gauge depth.Even without a buddy, you can do a decent estimation job when ascending. Its not something you should do a free ascent for in OW (when boat diving)

emcbride81
12-20-2007, 18:56
What if there is no beer when you get back to shore? :icon_eek:
All this other stuff I could handle! :)

Actually, on the topic of losing your computer, would you still feel the need to abort if you reviewed tables before the dive and have analog gauges? If you know your plan and you know what your time/depth limits are wouldn't the analog gauges be enough? I almost always try to know my table info before I splash for that reason. So far it hasnt been necessary.

in_cavediver
12-20-2007, 19:56
What if there is no beer when you get back to shore? :icon_eek:
All this other stuff I could handle! :)[\quote]

That's what dive buddies are for. Just use his reserve British Decomopression mix (Beer)

[quote=emcbride81;109444] Actually, on the topic of losing your computer, would you still feel the need to abort if you reviewed tables before the dive and have analog gauges? If you know your plan and you know what your time/depth limits are wouldn't the analog gauges be enough? I almost always try to know my table info before I splash for that reason. So far it hasnt been necessary.

Your scenario of losing the computer but still being on tables is interesting. For me, in a rec context, I'd keep diving on the tables. It would be no different that starting the dive only with that gear. If it was a tec context, I'd take the hint and start bailing out or at least seriously consider the risk reward of continuing on the dive.

Matt P
12-21-2007, 06:25
o 3 breaths on your reg
o 3 breaths on DB Oct
o Gauge checkI'm now also in the habit of doing a quick purge then taking 3 big, deep breaths off my reg & octo while looking at my gauge as the very last thing before I splash. This helps to identify if someone has "helped" me by shutting off my air. In that case the gauge will still show a good charge b/c of air in the hose. Giving it a quick purge and a few good hard breaths will make that gauge drop. If that gauge moves abort the dive. Test it with your own SPG to determine how much of a purge\breath test you need to move the SPG when the tank is shut off.

MSilvia
12-21-2007, 07:36
2. What will you do if your BC bladder pops.
With a weight integrated BC I can ditch half or all of my weights. if I can't swin up, then ditch half, if I still can't then ditch all.
Ditching at depth may work with thin tropical exposure protection, but it's a great way to get a quick ride to a chamber if you do it in a 2-piece 7mm suit. If you tried that at 90 feet, the question wouldn't if you'd rocket to the surface, but how far you'd jump out of the water when you got there. I'd only ditch at depth if Plan A, B, C, and D, all failed, and I couldn't come up with a better Plan E before I ran low on gas. In my mind, it rates only just slightly higher than "not an option". It would have to come down to, "I'm consciously deciding to be bent on the surface instead of dead on the bottom."

Ditchable weights are for surface flotation, not surfacing.


5. What do you do if your inflator sticks on? You disconnect the inflator hose ASAP. Practice this. It happens alot.
Jet Dump at the end of the inflator hose. They are designed to be able to release air faster than the inflator can pump it in.

That'll work, but you'll unnecessarily waste a lot of gas that way, and probably have to abort your dive as a result. If you just disconnect, and you're comfortable with oral inflation, you can continue the dive and chalk it up to a minor inconvenience instead of a critical failure.


MSilvia: If you don't bring enough snacks.....well that's inexcusable. You should be shot with a speargun and used for chum!
Bring the snack, or BE the snack, eh? :smiley2:

MSilvia
12-21-2007, 07:41
I'm now also in the habit of doing a quick purge then taking 3 big, deep breaths off my reg & octo while looking at my gauge as the very last thing before I splash. Be careful with that if you ever dive cold water. "Pre-breathing" your reg is a good way to make it ice up and free flow.

cgvmer
12-21-2007, 07:42
For MSilvia:
I'm answering these with the assumption that I am diving a a nodeco dive profile:
What if your dive buddy loses consciousness or goes into convulsions from CNS toxicity? I would imagine the most important thing is to get air, so a rapid ascent would be beneficial to your buddy.

Depends on depth and d What if you get caught in a stiff current?

What if you have to vomit at depth? Done it, chum and continue.

What if your reg free flows or ices up? switch to alternate, try to clear the free flow, if not proceed to surface.

What if your drysuit floods? Dry suits are for sissy's (sorry just kidding) What if you get entangled in something you can't see? Why can't you see it? you may have to remove your gear at depth and untangle yourself.

What if you lose a fin? Awkward but not a big deal.
What if you do everything right, but feel DCS symptoms post dive? Get to a hospital.

What if you have to get a private boat ready for a helicopter evacuation? So you do it.

What if you have to signal a search team? Sausage! At night? My light.

What if you get the Heebie Jeebies? Rule number 1 of diving call off the dive if you don't feel right.
What if you really have to poop, and there's no head on the boat? Curse the captain, and hang over the side.

What if you need first aid, or CPR, or oxygen? Ic'e been trained as have my 2 sons.

What if you have to call for help on a VHF radio because (for example) you surfaced to find the captain unconscious? So you call and if so directed by the CoastGaurd and you feel able you bring the boat home.
What if you blow an o-ring?

What if your buddy completely loses it and panics at depth? To many options.

What if you can't find the mooring line/boat? Beat yourself silly for not listening during the navigation part of your training.

What if there aren't enough snacks for everyone?? Share!
__________________

No Misses
12-21-2007, 10:39
cgvmer, your answers are a little short. We make a lot a assumptions that everybody knows how to do these things. This is not the case for everybody. Let's look at something as simple as using the VHF radio "What if you have to call for help on a VHF radio because (for example) you surfaced to find the captain unconscious? So you call and if so directed by the Coastguard and you feel able you bring the boat home."

1. Locate the VHF radio: There may be more than one radio ie: SSB, UHF, etc.
2. Switch to channel 16: (hailing channel in the USA) use the rotary knob or up / down buttons. Some radios have a dedicated button to automatically switch you to channel 16. New radios may have a DSC Emergency button that sends your Lat & Lon with your distress call.
3. Hail the Coast Guard by pressing the PTT (push to talk) lever on the side of the microphone and stating "PAN, PAN, PAN. This is the Filthy Whore (name of boat) calling the US Coast Guard”. Repeat at least 3 times or until you get a response. State the nature of your distress ie; "the captain is unconscious and breathing. We need assistance”. If for some reason you do not hear a response, state the nature of your distress and location anyway. It is possible that somebody is hearing you but for some reason you are not hearing their response.
4. One of the questions that the Coast Guard will likely ask is, “What is your location and course? If you see a GPS unit, look for Lat & Lon numbers. They will look similar to this 26.12345N / 80.12345W. Tell them if the boat is anchored or drifting. You may have to button wail in the GPS to get it to display this screen. Look for “Position” or similar terminology.
5. They may also ask for a description of the vessel. They should recognize the names of most charter vessels in the area. Private vessels are a different matter. A general description is all that they are looking for. Length of vessel, Color, type (center console, motor yacht, sailboat, etc.)

The international distress call is PAN, PAN, PAN followed by your vessel name, vessel description, and nature of the emergency.

P.S. Release the PTT lever to hear the response. Radios can not transmit and receive at the same time (half duplex)
Good luck.

MSilvia
12-21-2007, 10:50
cgvmer, your answers are a little short. We make a lot a assumptions that everybody knows how to do these things. This is not the case for everybody.
Since it's a "things to think about" thread, it's up to each of us to evaluate how well prepared we are to deal with the situations folks bring up here, and to take action to get prepared if we aren't. If cgvmer feels like some of these are no-brainer "just get it done" stuff, good!

The international distress call is PAN, PAN, PAN followed by your vessel name, vessel description, and nature of the emergency.FYI while we're at it, if the distress is "life or limb" serious, "mayday, mayday, mayday" is the appropriate hail. If it's an advisory, alerting other boaters of dangerous debris in the area for example, "security, security, security" should be used.

cgvmer
12-21-2007, 11:08
Msilvia....you are correct my answers are short....I have spent most of my life getting/giving instruction in safety. It may sound silly, but having been active with Scouting since I was 7 and now with children (1 son an Eagle scout, other son (14) working on it) some of these things are in fact no brainers. The BSA motto is "Be Prepared", doesn't have any context assigned to it, because it should be applied to all contexts you have contact with.

MSilvia
12-21-2007, 11:46
The BSA motto is "Be Prepared".
IMO, it ought to be the motto of serious divers as well.

Grin
12-21-2007, 14:12
Holy crack! What's your problem! If your an expert great. It appears to me your a internet expert in your own mind. And it appears your awful proud of yourself. Your first mistake is you assume everyone is rigged and equiped exactly like you. I'm sure alot of people learned something from your comments!:smilie39: Thanks for adding zero so clearly. Adding is great, but you added exactly zero. Your response is a clear example of why so many have left other sites. I am one of those people who chased others off other sites, but I am not taking it here unless provoked. So many morons so little time! :LOL:





1.What if you jump in and get one breath and find your tank valve is off.
I switch to my backup reg and turn it on again. No big deal, even if I have to do it on a breath hold.


2. What will you do if your BC bladder pops. Sending a float up on a reel then pulling yourself up, is a easy out if this happens and you have that settup with you.
Trying to climb #36 line to the surface while too negative to swim your rig up? You're joking, right? Have you ever actually tried that? It sounds like crazy talk to me... there are too many ways it could go wrong, and has no clear advantage I can see over keeping the bag with you and simply using it to control your buoyancy.

In any case, using a lift bag or SMB wouldn't rate any better than plan C for me. If my wing failed, I'd control buoyancy with my dry suit. If my wing and drysuit have both been punctured beyond use, THEN I'll consider a bag.


3. What if you loose your mask.

If it's a dive I can't easily abort, I put on my backup mask. Otherwise, I abort the dive and use either a buddy or the smallest bubbles I can see as a reference to estimate my ascent rate.


4. Can you stay afloat easily if you have to float for a couple hours or a day.
It wouldn't be the first time.


5. What do you do if your inflator sticks on?

I disconnect it. I have a "top hat" shaped thing that makes it easy to disconnect with thick gloves on.


6. What if your computer goes dead on you while in a dive?
Generally speaking, I abort the dive. Usually there's nothing I need to know at that point that I need a computer for. If I have a planned deco obligation, I'll have a backup analog gauge and timer for the stops.


7. I can't think of any other situations right now, but I'm always ready to hear others ideas of what you should practice or at least think about how to deal with situations.
Here are a few for you: What if your dive buddy loses consciousness or goes into convulsions from CNS toxicity? What if you get caught in a stiff current? What if you have to vomit at depth? What if your reg free flows or ices up? What if your drysuit floods? What if you get entangled in something you can't see? What if you lose a fin? What if you do everything right, but feel DCS symptoms post dive? What if you have to get a private boat ready for a helicopter evacuation? What if you have to signal a search team? At night? What if you get the Heebie Jeebies? What if you really have to poop, and there's no head on the boat? What if you need first aid, or CPR, or oxygen? What if you have to call for help on a VHF radio because (for example) you surfaced to find the captain unconscious? What if you blow an o-ring? What if your buddy completely loses it and panics at depth? What if you can't find the mooring line/boat? What if there aren't enough snacks for everyone??

cgvmer
12-21-2007, 14:44
"Thanks for adding zero so clearly. Adding is great, but you added exactly zero. Your response is a clear example of why so many have left other sites. I am one of those people who chased others off other sites, but I am not taking it here unless provoked. So many morons so little time! "
Hey Grin it may be time to look in the mirror ......

Grin
12-21-2007, 14:49
I know many dive on charter boats, but as No Misses and I use our personal boats. That also brings up a lot of possible situations charter boat people don't have to worry about. Llike the VHF/ CG issue, No Misses brought up. One of my biggest fears is the person I am diving with can't start the boat because they turned it off with the throttles in gear, and just don't know/forget. It is a easy thing to screw up and just not know. You turn the key and nothing! All that needs doen is put the throttles in Neutral and wallahhh! it works! We always have current here in SE FL so this issue could be a big issue watching the boat slowly disapear, for such a silly reason . I recently made cheat sheet for the temporary boat driver, with items like this, and the coast gaurd info and how to do basics on the GPS. Of course when I'm diving with No Misses I don't have to worry about this stuff as we have the exact same boats. But I dive with some comercial guys and old farts and Neighbors etc... Baically anyone I can find! Even consider having my mom run the boat once :smilie39:



cgvmer, your answers are a little short. We make a lot a assumptions that everybody knows how to do these things. This is not the case for everybody. Let's look at something as simple as using the VHF radio "What if you have to call for help on a VHF radio because (for example) you surfaced to find the captain unconscious? So you call and if so directed by the Coastguard and you feel able you bring the boat home."

1. Locate the VHF radio: There may be more than one radio ie: SSB, UHF, etc.
2. Switch to channel 16: (hailing channel in the USA) use the rotary knob or up / down buttons. Some radios have a dedicated button to automatically switch you to channel 16. New radios may have a DSC Emergency button that sends your Lat & Lon with your distress call.
3. Hail the Coast Guard by pressing the PTT (push to talk) lever on the side of the microphone and stating "PAN, PAN, PAN. This is the Filthy Whore (name of boat) calling the US Coast Guard”. Repeat at least 3 times or until you get a response. State the nature of your distress ie; "the captain is unconscious and breathing. We need assistance”. If for some reason you do not hear a response, state the nature of your distress and location anyway. It is possible that somebody is hearing you but for some reason you are not hearing their response.
4. One of the questions that the Coast Guard will likely ask is, “What is your location and course? If you see a GPS unit, look for Lat & Lon numbers. They will look similar to this 26.12345N / 80.12345W. Tell them if the boat is anchored or drifting. You may have to button wail in the GPS to get it to display this screen. Look for “Position” or similar terminology.
5. They may also ask for a description of the vessel. They should recognize the names of most charter vessels in the area. Private vessels are a different matter. A general description is all that they are looking for. Length of vessel, Color, type (center console, motor yacht, sailboat, etc.)

The international distress call is PAN, PAN, PAN followed by your vessel name, vessel description, and nature of the emergency.

P.S. Release the PTT lever to hear the response. Radios can not transmit and receive at the same time (half duplex)
Good luck.

Grin
12-21-2007, 14:53
Hey Grin it may be time to look in the mirror ......[/quote]


You might want to go back and read. If you don't think the thread is to your level and you have zero to add except claiming the points are all mute and you are so above it, don't post! He posted a bunch of crap and provoked me. He may be your buddy I don't know. I do know I have posted nothing to be sorry about here. If I were you I'd be editing.

Grin
12-21-2007, 14:56
Holy crack! What's your problem! If your an expert great. It appears your awful proud of yourself. I'm sure alot of people learned soemthing from your comments! Thanks for adding zero so clearly. Your response is a clear example of why so many have left other sites.




ohh, diddums. Did we want to be the only Jackalax [(sp), yes I read your post before you edited it] on site. I think your histrionics say more about you than anyone else.

Hunh!
Yea! I edited a comment out trying to be sane here on this site. I don't understand anything else you tryed to say there though.

cgvmer
12-21-2007, 14:58
Never met him, never PM'ed him, and unless my normally poor typing got worse, I see no need to edit.

Goober
12-21-2007, 15:09
What if there is no beer when you get back to shore? :icon_eek:
All this other stuff I could handle! :)[\quote]

That's what dive buddies are for. Just use his reserve British Decomopression mix (Beer)

[quote=emcbride81;109444] Actually, on the topic of losing your computer, would you still feel the need to abort if you reviewed tables before the dive and have analog gauges? If you know your plan and you know what your time/depth limits are wouldn't the analog gauges be enough? I almost always try to know my table info before I splash for that reason. So far it hasnt been necessary.

Your scenario of losing the computer but still being on tables is interesting. For me, in a rec context, I'd keep diving on the tables. It would be no different that starting the dive only with that gear. If it was a tec context, I'd take the hint and start bailing out or at least seriously consider the risk reward of continuing on the dive.

My buddy and I always plan a profile Via the tables and stick to it. Yes I dive a computer and a digital,analog watch, and I keep a close eye on both of them. The computer for me at this stage of my diving experiance, is just a back-up of what I already know as well as a cool depth guage:smiley2:.

I'm aware that my alarm is about to go off before it goes off. There are small variations. It will usually allow a bit more bottom time than I've planned if I don't exceed my planned depth. It is WAY bigger than my watch so it is easy to read:smiley32:.

I'm not saying that this is the gospel for everyone, it is just how a computer effects my diving at this point in our marriage. I'd have to agree with cavediver though.... in a tech enviroment, I'd like to think that I could take a hint. Even southern folks have heard of snowballin':smiley20:.

MSilvia
12-21-2007, 15:11
If you don't think the thread is to your level and you have zero to add except claiming the points are all mute and you are so above it, don't post! He posted a bunch of crap and provoked me.
You seem to have misinterpreted my post entirely, as I was simply attempting to both offer my thoughts on each of the situations you asked about our planned reactions to, and to provide some food for thought as far as other situations that might be worth considering, as you said you were out of ideas. If you took my rejection of your "climb the line" plan as provocation, perhaps you're easily provoked. I didn't intend the comment that way, and would still welcome some meaningful discussion on that point if you care to engage in conversation instead what comes across as knee-jerk defensiveness.

In no way do I mean that any of your points are moot... they're all situations that should be thought about and, if only intellectually, prepared for. That I've done the preparation for them to my satisfaction should in no way be taken to mean that they are to be dismissed lightly, or that I feel I'm "above" discussing them.

Presumably you would have prefered a different sort of response than the one I gave? I'm honestly not sure how I could have responded in a way that would be an accurate reflection of my reactions in each scenario without either belaboring each point in a way I'm quite certain you would have taken to be 'holier than thou', or being so devoid of meaning as to be truely worth of being called "crap". What is it you expected?

In any case, while I do consider myself fairly knowledgable after 20 years of diving, I still believe I have plenty to learn, and am always open to revising my methods as better information and ideas come along. Feel free to debate or correct me whenever you disagree, but please don't attack me for simply participating in a discussion you started. It reflects poorly on all of us, and I'm not trying to create any negativity here.

Goober
12-21-2007, 15:23
:smilie40:

cummings66
12-21-2007, 15:49
I'm still trying to see what the hub bub is all about, I don't see anything that was said which would illicit a negative response. It seems to me that a question was asked, many of them, I think there have been some good answers given.

Unless the intent of the OP was to say this is the situation and how to handle it, conversation done. I don't think he meant it that way. I've learned a couple things.

Matt P
12-21-2007, 16:46
Ditching at depth may work with thin tropical exposure protection, but it's a great way to get a quick ride to a chamber if you do it in a 2-piece 7mm suit. If you tried that at 90 feet, the question wouldn't if you'd rocket to the surface, but how far you'd jump out of the water when you got there. I'd only ditch at depth if Plan A, B, C, and D, all failed, and I couldn't come up with a better Plan E before I ran low on gas. In my mind, it rates only just slightly higher than "not an option". It would have to come down to, "I'm consciously deciding to be bent on the surface instead of dead on the bottom."

Ditchable weights are for surface flotation, not surfacing.I know this question is not easy to answer b/c of all the variables. But, I'll ask it anyway...

There has to be some amount of weight that could be safely dropped. Lets say I dive a dry suit to 90 ft with 10 lbs of ditchable weight. What if I ditch 7lbs? 5 lbs? 2 lbs? Can this question be safely answered without placing a diver in jeopardy? I'm certainly not about to try it. But, I wonder what experiences people have had ditching weights at depth - intentional or not. What rules of thumb - other than don't ditch at depth - have been derived from these experiences?

in_cavediver
12-21-2007, 17:04
I know this question is not easy to answer b/c of all the variables. But, I'll ask it anyway...

There has to be some amount of weight that could be safely dropped. Lets say I dive a dry suit to 90 ft with 10 lbs of ditchable weight. What if I ditch 7lbs? 5 lbs? 2 lbs? I guess the real question can this question be safely answered without placing a diver in jeopardy? I'm certainly not about to try it. But, I wonder what experiences people have had? And, what - if any - rules of thumb have been derived?

Matt,

This is actually very easy to answer. You can ditch as much weight as the breathing gas you have wieghts when you surface.

The reason is simple. Some items we carry are incompressable, some are compressable and some are consumable. The compressable and incompressable items may vary during the dive, but that's dependent on depth alone. You have one value for any given depth, irregardless of time.

Non-compressable items are lead weights, reels, flashlights, masks. Basically stuff that is rigid and either floats or sinks. It will be the same buoyant force irregarless of the depth.

Compressable items are divided into controllable variable air spaces and other stuff. A wetsuit has a variable buoyant force dependent on depth. Its reponse is predictable. IE, its 20lbs buoyant at the surface, 5lbs at 100'. The controlable spaces are your BC bladder and drysuit. Basically, you control the buoyant force in them and for the merits of your question, they are ignored. This class of items may cause you to be negative at depth but will return to neutral at the surface. Due to the nature of these items, you will carry more lead than needed at depth to offset thier shallow water buoyancy. we cannot shed that 'extra' weight at depth less we become positive at shallow depths.

The last item is consumables. This is your breathing gas wieght. An AL 80 has roughly 6lbs of air in it when full, 3lbs at 1500psi etc. This negative value only changes with usage.

Matt P
12-21-2007, 17:20
This is actually very easy to answer. You can ditch as much weight as the breathing gas you have wieghts when you surface.Just to clarify...

Are you saying a diver can ditch weight equivalent to the surface weight of the gas currently in their tank at a given moment at depth? Is that an accurate reiteration of what you stated?

It'll take me a bit to digest the explanation you gave. But, I want to make sure I at least understand the principle. Thanks

MSilvia
12-21-2007, 18:20
This is actually very easy to answer. You can ditch as much weight as the breathing gas you have wieghts when you surface.

Good answer... I never thought about it like that before. I agree that ditching weight equal to the negative buoyancy of your gas would be acceptable, and if it made the difference between being able to ascend and not, it would be well worth doing if it came down to "ditch or die". Thanks for the idea!

Another answer to the ditch at depth question comes from some old diving books I read. They suggested that divers might want to put some weights on the mooring line as they descend, so that they can be retrieved on the ascent, allowing the diver to be closer to neutral with a near-empty BC when they lose buoyancy due to wetsuit compression at depth.

That might be an acceptable be a preemptive solution under the right circumstances, but if it were me I'd want to make darn sure I could get back to those weights on the way up! An under weighted free ascent from depth with a thick suit doesn't sound too good to me. I don't think I'd try it without some sort of compelling fail-safe, and I can't think of one that seems sensible off the top of my head.

WaScubaDude
12-22-2007, 00:13
I know this question is not easy to answer b/c of all the variables. But, I'll ask it anyway...

There has to be some amount of weight that could be safely dropped. Lets say I dive a dry suit to 90 ft with 10 lbs of ditchable weight. What if I ditch 7lbs? 5 lbs? 2 lbs? I guess the real question can this question be safely answered without placing a diver in jeopardy? I'm certainly not about to try it. But, I wonder what experiences people have had? And, what - if any - rules of thumb have been derived?

Matt,

This is actually very easy to answer. You can ditch as much weight as the breathing gas you have wieghts when you surface.

The reason is simple. Some items we carry are incompressable, some are compressable and some are consumable. The compressable and incompressable items may vary during the dive, but that's dependent on depth alone. You have one value for any given depth, irregardless of time.

Non-compressable items are lead weights, reels, flashlights, masks. Basically stuff that is rigid and either floats or sinks. It will be the same buoyant force irregarless of the depth.

Compressable items are divided into controllable variable air spaces and other stuff. A wetsuit has a variable buoyant force dependent on depth. Its reponse is predictable. IE, its 20lbs buoyant at the surface, 5lbs at 100'. The controlable spaces are your BC bladder and drysuit. Basically, you control the buoyant force in them and for the merits of your question, they are ignored. This class of items may cause you to be negative at depth but will return to neutral at the surface. Due to the nature of these items, you will carry more lead than needed at depth to offset thier shallow water buoyancy. we cannot shed that 'extra' weight at depth less we become positive at shallow depths.

The last item is consumables. This is your breathing gas wieght. An AL 80 has roughly 6lbs of air in it when full, 3lbs at 1500psi etc. This negative value only changes with usage.

Not so fast in_ cave diver, really smart guy. You forgot about ROCKS! Put rocks in your BC pockets pre dive, dump them at depth, add them back prior to ascent. Granted it's more trouble than it's worth and not so environmentaly sound, but it is a solution to the question posed.

Grin
12-22-2007, 08:26
It appears we should start a "how to determine I'm properly weighted" topic.
I can see no reason you would carry any weight you will not need at the end of your dive(with a near empty tank around 5 ft deep) when your at the most bouyant part of the dive. Meaning if, you are properly wieghted, and you dump some weight, your going to have problems accending correctly, as you will now be too bouyant, and only getting more bouyant as you accend. If you somehow can dump weight, and still do a proper accent, what was that weight for to begin with?

in_cavediver
12-22-2007, 09:34
It appears we should start a "how to determine I'm properly weighted" topic.
I can see no reason you would carry any weight you will not need at the end of your dive(with a near empty tank around 5 ft deep) when your at the most bouyant part of the dive. Meaning if, you are properly wieghted, and you dump some weight, your going to have problems accending correctly, as you will now be too bouyant, and only getting more bouyant as you accend. If you somehow can dump weight, and still do a proper accent, what was that weight for to begin with?

Exactly. The only 'excess' weight you carry is in your breathing gas.

What Msilvia and WascubaDude have described are drop weights. They has some usefulness in specific cases but I would hardly consider them useful in rec diving contexts. The main cases I have heard them used are for descending in very high flow situations in caves. I can't think of any other reason to use them.

MSilvia
12-23-2007, 07:06
What Msilvia and WascubaDude have described are drop weights. They has some usefulness in specific cases but I would hardly consider them useful in rec diving contexts.
Yeah, as I said, it was from an old dive book. Being overweighted at depth due to wetsuit compression isn't the problem it once was, now that we have BCs. I think of it as a dated and inadvisable practice.

scubajane
12-23-2007, 14:51
[quote=Grin;109290]



What if you have to vomit at depth?

OO. OO, I know the answer to that one.

Bite down and let er rip!!!! keep eyes open to watch fish fight for fresh chum!!!!

Navy OnStar
12-23-2007, 15:13
5. What do you do if your inflator sticks on? You disconnect the inflator hose ASAP. Practice this. It happens alot.
Jet Dump at the end of the inflator hose. They are designed to be able to release air faster than the inflator can pump it in.



That'll work, but you'll unnecessarily waste a lot of gas that way, and probably have to abort your dive as a result. If you just disconnect, and you're comfortable with oral inflation, you can continue the dive and chalk it up to a minor inconvenience instead of a critical failure.

I realize I didn't fully explain. The jet dump will let out the air and you won't rocket to the surface as you try to disconnect. It gives you time to think. and you don't have to rush.

Navy OnStar
12-23-2007, 15:48
2. What will you do if your BC bladder pops.

With a weight integrated BC I can ditch half or all of my weights. if I can't swin up, then ditch half, if I still can't then ditch all.
Bad move. As a basic rec diver, you shouldn't ever be to negative to swim it up. The problem of ditching half the weight at depth is at 10-15', you to light and you polaris through the most dangerous part of the ascent.

Another option is to use the 'good' part of the wing to trap some air to help swim it up.

When you get to the surface, then ditch your weight.
)

I don't think this is as bad a situation as a couple of you pointed out.

Let me start by saying I am a rec diver only. And I don't feel I would ever be so negative I couldn't swin up to the surface if my BC bladder ripped.

My steel 80 tank goes from -9 to -3 lbs of bouyancy though a dive (give or take depending on air remaining). That's 6 lbs of Bouyancy from full to empty. If my bladder rips and I ditch 1 weight pocket I lose 3 to 5lbs depending on whether I have my hooded vest on or not and which side I ditch. That's less bouyancy than going from full to empty. I have several pounds in my trim pockets and only need 6 lbs divided between 2 pockets for my 3mm wet suit, and 9 lbs divided if I wear the 3mm hooded vest as well and don't adjust the trim weights. If I am empty and ditch 1 pocket that's 9 lbs of total bouyancy.

A Steel 120 goes from -11 to -2 from full to empty that's 9 lbs of bouyancy on every dive. Check out the Bouyancy characteristics here.
HP Steel 80 Scuba Tank High Pressure X7-80, Scuba Tanks, Worthington, HP Steel 80 Scuba Tank High Pressure X7-80 (http://scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=X780)

I'm only going ditch IF I can't make ANY progress towards the surface swimming, which I don't think will happen. I don't think losing 3 lbs of weights is going to bend me seeing that someone with a 120 loses the same negative bouyancy through a dive as I would with my 80 empty and losing 1 pocket.

I do understand the numbers are slightly off because we aren't going to take our tanks all the way to empty.

What am I missing?

What do you all have in your weight pockets?

in_cavediver
12-23-2007, 20:38
2. What will you do if your BC bladder pops.

With a weight integrated BC I can ditch half or all of my weights. if I can't swin up, then ditch half, if I still can't then ditch all.
Bad move. As a basic rec diver, you shouldn't ever be to negative to swim it up. The problem of ditching half the weight at depth is at 10-15', you to light and you polaris through the most dangerous part of the ascent.

Another option is to use the 'good' part of the wing to trap some air to help swim it up.

When you get to the surface, then ditch your weight.
)

I don't think this is as bad a situation as a couple of you pointed out.

Let me start by saying I am a rec diver only. And I don't feel I would ever be so negative I couldn't swin up to the surface if my BC bladder ripped.

My steel 80 tank goes from -9 to -3 lbs of bouyancy though a dive (give or take depending on air remaining). That's 6 lbs of Bouyancy from full to empty. If my bladder rips and I ditch 1 weight pocket I lose 3 to 5lbs depending on whether I have my hooded vest on or not and which side I ditch. That's less bouyancy than going from full to empty. I have several pounds in my trim pockets and only need 6 lbs divided between 2 pockets for my 3mm wet suit, and 9 lbs divided if I wear the 3mm hooded vest as well and don't adjust the trim weights. If I am empty and ditch 1 pocket that's 9 lbs of total bouyancy.

A Steel 120 goes from -11 to -2 from full to empty that's 9 lbs of bouyancy on every dive. Check out the Bouyancy characteristics here.
HP Steel 80 Scuba Tank High Pressure X7-80, Scuba Tanks, Worthington, HP Steel 80 Scuba Tank High Pressure X7-80 (http://scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=X780)

I'm only going ditch IF I can't make ANY progress towards the surface swimming, which I don't think will happen. I don't think losing 3 lbs of weights is going to bend me seeing that someone with a 120 loses the same negative bouyancy through a dive as I would with my 80 empty and losing 1 pocket.

I do understand the numbers are slightly off because we aren't going to take our tanks all the way to empty.

What am I missing?

What do you all have in your weight pockets?

What you describe is tank swing due to the gas you breathe. You can safely ditch any of this weight so long as you plan to surface with that amount of gas. IE, if you have an 80, and surface with 1500psi, you could ditch 3lbs.

When I dove singles in a 7mm, I carried 16-24lbs of lead. In a drysuit, it was 26-30lbs. Now, I prefer steel dbl 104s dry with zero lead and dbl 80's in a skin/3-4mm again with no lead.

As for why its bad to be positive and have no control over ascent speed, its more than just the bends. Embolism/over expansion injuryg is a very real risk. Ditching weight at depth is one of those do or die moments. Its should be pretty far down the list of things to do in an emergency.

Navy OnStar
12-23-2007, 21:02
As for why its bad to be positive and have no control over ascent speed, its more than just the bends. Embolism/over expansion injuryg is a very real risk. Ditching weight at depth is one of those do or die moments. Its should be pretty far down the list of things to do in an emergency.

I understand that it's bad to not have control over you ascent rate. I understand that everyone has a different set up. With my set up as you have said with tank swing I look to "add" 6 lbs of bouyancy as I breathe throughout the dive. Anytime before the end of the dive if I drop 3 lbs. (which again I really don't think I would ever have to) I believe I would still be in control. Someone who dives a 120 will have less weight in their pouch because the tank starts off -11 where the 80 starts off -9. The 120 ends up -2 and the 80 -3. So without ditching any weight a 120 will have say an 8 lb swing (assuming some air still in the tank) through the dive and I haven't heard of anyone diving a Steel 120 having a problem with uncontrolled ascents.

With steel dbl 104's (based on 100's) you would go from -20 to -5(empty) lets say you have some air in each tank and you only go to -10, that's a 10lb swing. I assume you are not going in overweight since you said you don't add any weight as you said you were 16-24 in your gear.

So with a 10lb swing do you feel like your ascent rate is high?

wheelman
12-23-2007, 21:49
Interesting discussion. I think the idea of ditching weight at depth would be a 'no other avenues' decision. I normally carry 8lbs of ditchable weight 4x2lbs so in theory could drop in 2lb increments

Grin
12-24-2007, 08:19
This weight dumping discussion is a little out of wack, but it is the reason for the post. To think about what would you do, and maybe even try it if you start wondering! I would stop trying to justify dumping wieght as that is definatly a last ditch effort. Remember, at depth, you are probably using your BC to somewhere around 20-30+lbs of lift(maybe much, much more). Virtually everyone carries at least a safety sausage and many already carry lift bags. Possibly take a look at replacing the small cheapo safety sausage with slightly more expensive a 25lb liftbag sausage. As MSilva pointed out, the best method is to attach it to your BC and inflate it until your neutral, then let air out of it as you accend. That would be the easiest way to do it(with something you probably already carry anyway) that I can think of. Even the little surface safety sausages could help get you 5-10 lbs of lift maybe? if it didn't burst.

I use a backplate and wing and usually have zero weight unless I'm using a 5 mil suit. Then I need about 4 lbs of lead. I dive with 2-3 25lb liftbags for floating up speared fish or whatever I find, so they are my backup. A 25lb sausage liftbag is not much bigger than a surface safety sausage.

wheelman
12-24-2007, 08:29
I agree with the lift bag idea.

MConnelly2
12-30-2007, 22:56
cgvmer, your answers are a little short. We make a lot a assumptions that everybody knows how to do these things. This is not the case for everybody. Let's look at something as simple as using the VHF radio "What if you have to call for help on a VHF radio because (for example) you surfaced to find the captain unconscious? So you call and if so directed by the Coastguard and you feel able you bring the boat home."

1. Locate the VHF radio: There may be more than one radio ie: SSB, UHF, etc.
2. Switch to channel 16: (hailing channel in the USA) use the rotary knob or up / down buttons. Some radios have a dedicated button to automatically switch you to channel 16. New radios may have a DSC Emergency button that sends your Lat & Lon with your distress call.
3. Hail the Coast Guard by pressing the PTT (push to talk) lever on the side of the microphone and stating "PAN, PAN, PAN. This is the Filthy Whore (name of boat) calling the US Coast Guard”. Repeat at least 3 times or until you get a response. State the nature of your distress ie; "the captain is unconscious and breathing. We need assistance”. If for some reason you do not hear a response, state the nature of your distress and location anyway. It is possible that somebody is hearing you but for some reason you are not hearing their response.
4. One of the questions that the Coast Guard will likely ask is, “What is your location and course? If you see a GPS unit, look for Lat & Lon numbers. They will look similar to this 26.12345N / 80.12345W. Tell them if the boat is anchored or drifting. You may have to button wail in the GPS to get it to display this screen. Look for “Position” or similar terminology.
5. They may also ask for a description of the vessel. They should recognize the names of most charter vessels in the area. Private vessels are a different matter. A general description is all that they are looking for. Length of vessel, Color, type (center console, motor yacht, sailboat, etc.)

The international distress call is PAN, PAN, PAN followed by your vessel name, vessel description, and nature of the emergency.

P.S. Release the PTT lever to hear the response. Radios can not transmit and receive at the same time (half duplex)
Good luck.


Not to step on your toes, butthis is what I do for a living. As far as 1 and 2, you're dead on. Find the VHF, there should be a button that will switch you straight to channel 16, usually has red number '16' on it.

A distress call, or any call that you think may even possibly be distress (nobody will curse you for responding too quick, but they will for waiting too long or under-reacting. Can always turn a boat around and RTB, but we can never make up lost time), is begun with the distress proword "Mayday, spoken three times, followed by the name of the vessel, postion, number of persons on board, nature of distress, and description of vessel. These are the first four questions the Coast Guard watchstander will ask you, so help him (or her) help you. For example:

"Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, this is the Motor Vessel Needshelpnow (transmitting the name not only helps them communicate with you and lets them know exactly what boat they are dealing with, but also buys the watchstander the 2 seconds to pick up the pen and poise him or herself to write down the latitude and longitude), in position 41-35.42 North, 070-05.21 West (maritime SAR, we use degrees, minutes, tenths and hundredths of minutes), approximately three and a half miles west of the south tip of Monomoy Island, with 04 persons on board, we are taking on water [or whatever the case may be]. Motor Vessel Needshelpnow is a 32 foot white hulled center console with a pink and purple t-top."

Then shut up for a second and give them a chance to answer. Sometimes everyone gets 'helpful' and tries to answer up, stepping all over the Coast Guard's transmission. If the CG is trying to talk to you, talk to them. If nobody answers up after ten seconds, make the transmission again.

But, above all else, ladies and gentlemen, if the thought crosses your mind that maybe you need to call the Coast Guard, DO IT. You can't make up lost time, they're not going to take away Christmas because the situation stabilized after you called, or it wasn't quite what it seemed, or whatever. False alarms are just that - they're not hoaxes, nobody is going to hold it against anyone. Motor Lifeboatmen are used to getting recalled after they get udnerway because the case turned out to be a false alarm, or assistance was no longer needed. It happens. It's disappointing, certainly, when you think you have some business and the deal falls through, but it's what these resources are there for. Don't hesitate to use them.

Sorry to ramble on, but this is what I do for a living, and I'm very passionate about it. I'm new to the diving thing, but not to the SAR thing, so while I can't answer too much in the way of diving, I can when it comes to bad things happening on the surface. We also have a Navy Helicopter Pilot (a squid fling-winger - also known as 'the search object' :smiley2:) here that's in the SAR business, that I know enjoys 'talking shop' about about finding and being found.

S&F,
-Mike

cutter77
12-31-2007, 19:49
Good thread ~ thanks.