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Soonerwink
12-27-2007, 20:49
I was reading another thread on computers and it was mentioned that someone wasn't taught dive tables during OW certification. I thought everyone had to learn dive tables. I was just wondering what organization doesn't teach dive tables? And if they don't do they include a computer with training?

Tom A
12-27-2007, 21:05
iv heard they dont go in to great details on dive tables my wife an daughter did'nt really know how to use them but iv been teaching them plus i still play with dive table software from ST just to stay in practice an have them do it. but the say we have computers an always dive with u. i had 6 nights of dive tables back years ago

Goober
12-27-2007, 21:05
I was reading another thread on computers and it was mentioned that someone wasn't taught dive tables during OW certification. I thought everyone had to learn dive tables. I was just wondering what organization doesn't teach dive tables? And if they don't do they include a computer with training?

Could it have been a misunderstanding in the thread? I can't imagine any oganization that would dismiss the teaching of dive tables. I struggled with them in OW. My problem was after about the third time of working a question my eyes just gave up on me...very frustrating. And now I still kinda struggle with them (not second nature yet).

I still like to plan my dive profile by the table. I'm not much for just relying on a computer, they are nice to have but I like to try and stay one step ahead of it.

divingbuddy
12-27-2007, 21:44
Students taking a PADI OW course have the option to use the Electronic Recreational Dive Planner (eRDP) instead of the slate tables.

This calculator-like device allows students to make all the dive planning calculations as they did before - in fact, most find the eRDP much easier to use.

I believe (and could easily be wrong) that SDI has their students start with dive computers from the very beginning. Perhaps an SDI instructor could clarify their position.

Just my two cents...Cheers!

emcbride81
12-27-2007, 22:25
I would hope they would teach them! Computers are great and all, but I would hate to be on a trip somewhere when mu computer craps out and I cant dive anymore because I have no clue on my decompression limits. Of course you can rent them just about everywhere now...

Soonerwink
12-27-2007, 22:33
I have been on the Spree at the Flower Gardens twice, and on both trips there has been a diver whose computer broke or locked them out and they had to switch to tables. If they hadn't known how to read them, they would not have been able to dive.

fisheater
12-27-2007, 23:12
They're part of my PADI OW home study course. I'll let you know in less than two weeks whether they're gone over in the live classroom/pool portion of the course.

Personally, I'm very happy with having learned the tables, even though I have a Wisdom ready to go before my first dive.

Goober
12-28-2007, 03:50
Students taking a PADI OW course have the option to use the Electronic Recreational Dive Planner (eRDP) instead of the slate tables.

This calculator-like device allows students to make all the dive planning calculations as they did before - in fact, most find the eRDP much easier to use.

I believe (and could easily be wrong) that SDI has their students start with dive computers from the very beginning. Perhaps an SDI instructor could clarify their position.

Just my two cents...Cheers!

I just finished PADI OW Aug 12. This ERDP was never even mentioned. In fact your post is the first I've ever heard of it. People still have to be taught tables. I'll check with PADI next week, although I'm sure they will be alarmed that someone is registering C-cards out with out the proper teaching of dive tables.

woody
12-28-2007, 05:23
My understanding is that SDI Instructors are not required to teach the Dive tables if use of a computer is taught. It is up to the instructor to choose which method students will learn / or both.

Thanks,
Woody

Lone Frogman
12-28-2007, 05:45
Plan your dive, dive your plan. How do you plan your dive without your tables?

Duckydiver
12-28-2007, 20:15
Even though I rarely use my dive tables, I think the are very important to understand and use. that way you can understand what your computer is actualy doing.

As for those e RDP's. I've never used one. But I think I would rather use a old style table.

Soonerwink
12-28-2007, 20:28
I have never used a RDP either. My LDS was using them teaching new OW classes but quit due to the fact that they are not made that good. Some of the keys quit working on many of them. I wish they still taught the wheel, I liked it better.

CompuDude
12-28-2007, 20:32
The eRDP is an optional table-replacement tool for PADI OW courses. Shops can mandate them, ignore them, or make them optional as they prefer. Sport Chalet, a major local chain, now uses the eRDP exclusively for it's OW courses, on orders from the top. I'm appalled, personally. Students can learn how to work the cheaply-made, non-waterPROOF calculator thingie, but having spoken to several students who have used it, they really did not get the concepts between time, depth, and limits... they were pretty helpless without the calculator. (which, again, breaks easily and you cannot take it down with you)

SDI's online training also eliminates teaching of tables. They are mentioned, but only in passing.

Again, I feel horror.

RoadRacer1978
12-28-2007, 23:40
I took my OW class back in 1994. So we were taught the tables and used them exclusively. Computers hadn't yet caught on as the norm. To this day I have still been diving using the tables and just recently purchased my first computer. Just got it in about a week ago and haven't had a chance to get it wet yet. I have become very proficient with diving tables and am glad. You never know when you will have to resort to diving tables again. I spoke to the LDS where I did my AOW and while they still teach the tables I was shocked when the owner told me that they did not put a lot of emphasis on tables because everyone uses computers these days. We are creating a society of divers that are learning to rely on technology rather than knowing what the information they are looking at on their computer actually means. This is all well and good until techonology fails them. Then they are in deep doo doo. Best case scenario is they have to forego some dives. You already know what the worst case scenario could be.

fisheater
12-29-2007, 00:37
Plan your dive, dive your plan. How do you plan your dive without your tables?

Most (if not all) computers have a planning mode, when you can plan your next dive based upon your current nitrogen status (and more).

Bert
12-29-2007, 08:47
I vote for tables. Lds gave the option for class, tables were taught but if you wanted you could use the Erdp. I am hopeing that in aow I can learn the wheel. ps I use the ST table program to keep in practice during my non dive time

Soonerwink
12-29-2007, 10:56
I talked to the owner of my LDS and he said that he will not fill takes for SDI certification unless they show him the computer they are going to dive with, because they don't teach tables.

ian
12-29-2007, 11:28
Most (if not all) computers have a planning mode, when you can plan your next dive based upon your current nitrogen status (and more).

Bingo! The problem is that new divers buy a computer and get no training on how to use it. The manual just gathers dust of gets used as a coaster for those SI beers.

Is this REALLY a case of "VE MUZT TEACH DER TABLES!!!" or is it a case of "we need a better way to teach the PHYSICS behind the tables"?

In my opinion, it is the later. Many people I meet diving, instructors included, just donít really get the physics behind diving to the point where the physical laws are completely understood.

The computers can be used to plan dives, keep track of O2 and N2 loading, off gassing, etc. The can be used to safely monitor shore diving. Tables donít really do a good job of tracking or planning shore dives. Wheels are not easy to use and, because of user, quality, etc. the results are not consistent.

If the physics behind diving are properly taught without frightening the students with the math before the physics are taught and the computers are thoroughly explained and taught, I believe that computer diving is far safer than table diving.

One poster mentioned that the user was locked out of their computer and went back to diving on their tables. Most likely, the computer locked them out for a reason, such as failing to meet a deco obligation, too short a surface interval or some other problem. If the computer fails underwater, the dive is ended. PERIOD.

Just out of curiosity, when diving on tables, how do you keep track of time, depth, etc? Do you use watches, depth gauges and the like? Are they all analog or are they digital? What do you do if one of those fails?

fisheater
12-29-2007, 11:49
Most (if not all) computers have a planning mode, when you can plan your next dive based upon your current nitrogen status (and more).

Bingo! The problem is that new divers buy a computer and get no training on how to use it. The manual just gathers dust of gets used as a coaster for those SI beers.

Is this REALLY a case of "VE MUZT TEACH DER TABLES!!!" or is it a case of "we need a better way to teach the PHYSICS behind the tables"?

In my opinion, it is the later. Many people I meet diving, instructors included, just donít really get the physics behind diving to the point where the physical laws are completely understood.

The computers can be used to plan dives, keep track of O2 and N2 loading, off gassing, etc. The can be used to safely monitor shore diving. Tables donít really do a good job of tracking or planning shore dives. Wheels are not easy to use and, because of user, quality, etc. the results are not consistent.

If the physics behind diving are properly taught without frightening the students with the math before the physics are taught and the computers are thoroughly explained and taught, I believe that computer diving is far safer than table diving.

One poster mentioned that the user was locked out of their computer and went back to diving on their tables. Most likely, the computer locked them out for a reason, such as failing to meet a deco obligation, too short a surface interval or some other problem. If the computer fails underwater, the dive is ended. PERIOD.

Just out of curiosity, when diving on tables, how do you keep track of time, depth, etc? Do you use watches, depth gauges and the like? Are they all analog or are they digital? What do you do if one of those fails?



Agreed!

I fear that many divers simply do what the computer says because that's what the computer says. They aren't aware of what the computer is computing and why.

Unless you understand the way the tables work and why they work that way, you can't appreciate / understand what your computer is doing. Ignorance of the processes involved leads divers to so stupid things when their computers fail, such as simply grabbing another one and taking a repetitive dive. Or relying upon their buddy's computer.

Goober
12-29-2007, 15:33
Most (if not all) computers have a planning mode, when you can plan your next dive based upon your current nitrogen status (and more).



Just out of curiosity, when diving on tables, how do you keep track of time, depth, etc? Do you use watches, depth gauges and the like? Are they all analog or are they digital? What do you do if one of those fails?






End your dive

CompuDude
12-29-2007, 15:35
Most (if not all) computers have a planning mode, when you can plan your next dive based upon your current nitrogen status (and more).

Bingo! The problem is that new divers buy a computer and get no training on how to use it. The manual just gathers dust of gets used as a coaster for those SI beers.

Is this REALLY a case of "VE MUZT TEACH DER TABLES!!!" or is it a case of "we need a better way to teach the PHYSICS behind the tables"?

In my opinion, it is the later. Many people I meet diving, instructors included, just donít really get the physics behind diving to the point where the physical laws are completely understood.

The computers can be used to plan dives, keep track of O2 and N2 loading, off gassing, etc. The can be used to safely monitor shore diving. Tables donít really do a good job of tracking or planning shore dives. Wheels are not easy to use and, because of user, quality, etc. the results are not consistent.

If the physics behind diving are properly taught without frightening the students with the math before the physics are taught and the computers are thoroughly explained and taught, I believe that computer diving is far safer than table diving.

One poster mentioned that the user was locked out of their computer and went back to diving on their tables. Most likely, the computer locked them out for a reason, such as failing to meet a deco obligation, too short a surface interval or some other problem. If the computer fails underwater, the dive is ended. PERIOD.

Just out of curiosity, when diving on tables, how do you keep track of time, depth, etc? Do you use watches, depth gauges and the like? Are they all analog or are they digital? What do you do if one of those fails?



Agreed!

I fear that many divers simply do what the computer says because that's what the computer says. They aren't aware of what the computer is computing and why.

Unless you understand the way the tables work and why they work that way, you can't appreciate / understand what your computer is doing. Ignorance of the processes involved leads divers to so stupid things when their computers fail, such as simply grabbing another one and taking a repetitive dive. Or relying upon their buddy's computer.

Double-agreed. I've heard too many stories of divers on live-aboards borrowing someone's spare computer because their's was broken... and turned out it was actually locked out for violating deco or something similar. And then there was the story of the guy who got tired of waiting for his computer to clear so he lowered it down to 15' on a rope so it would finish up without him and let him continue diving... oy.

On a personal note, I've met too many recent OW grads who complain they don't know how to use their computer beyond watch depth, watch time, and when it says come up, come up! Planning modes? WAY beyond what they're taught. I think there should be a mandatory 1/2 hr training session for each computer rented. That would at least be a start. And that training session should be repeated each time until the diver can demonstrate to the LDS that they have MASTERY over that particular make of computer.

Soonerwink
12-29-2007, 15:57
One poster mentioned that the user was locked out of their computer and went back to diving on their tables. Most likely, the computer locked them out for a reason, such as failing to meet a deco obligation, too short a surface interval or some other problem. If the computer fails underwater, the dive is ended. PERIOD.
The diver mentioned had finished his dive safely but very close to his no deco time, and his bubby dropped a fin. He dove down quickly and retrieved the fin and quickly surfaced. that was the reason he got locked out.

Just out of curiosity, when diving on tables, how do you keep track of time, depth, etc? Do you use watches, depth gauges and the like? Are they all analog or are they digital? What do you do if one of those fails?

[/quote]

Agreed!

I fear that many divers simply do what the computer says because that's what the computer says. They aren't aware of what the computer is computing and why.

Unless you understand the way the tables work and why they work that way, you can't appreciate / understand what your computer is doing. Ignorance of the processes involved leads divers to so stupid things when their computers fail, such as simply grabbing another one and taking a repetitive dive. Or relying upon their buddy's computer.[/quote]

Double-agreed. I've heard too many stories of divers on live-aboards borrowing someone's spare computer because their's was broken... and turned out it was actually locked out for violating deco or something similar. And then there was the story of the guy who got tired of waiting for his computer to clear so he lowered it down to 15' on a rope so it would finish up without him and let him continue diving... oy.

On a personal note, I've met too many recent OW grads who complain they don't know how to use their computer beyond watch depth, watch time, and when it says come up, come up! Planning modes? WAY beyond what they're taught. I think there should be a mandatory 1/2 hr training session for each computer rented. That would at least be a start. And that training session should be repeated each time until the diver can demonstrate to the LDS that they have MASTERY over that particular make of computer.[/quote]
When I purchased my computer I asked if there was a class that I could attend to learn it. They said there wasn't, to just read the manual. They did however let me use their pool to learn it. Many LDS's don't know how to use all the computers they sell, I have found out while shopping for one. I think if an OW diver isn't taught tables, it should be mandatory that they attend a class to learn how and why there computers do what they do.

Goober
12-29-2007, 16:03
Most (if not all) computers have a planning mode, when you can plan your next dive based upon your current nitrogen status (and more).

Bingo! The problem is that new divers buy a computer and get no training on how to use it. The manual just gathers dust of gets used as a coaster for those SI beers.

Is this REALLY a case of "VE MUZT TEACH DER TABLES!!!" or is it a case of "we need a better way to teach the PHYSICS behind the tables"?

In my opinion, it is the later. Many people I meet diving, instructors included, just donít really get the physics behind diving to the point where the physical laws are completely understood.

The computers can be used to plan dives, keep track of O2 and N2 loading, off gassing, etc. The can be used to safely monitor shore diving. Tables donít really do a good job of tracking or planning shore dives. Wheels are not easy to use and, because of user, quality, etc. the results are not consistent.

If the physics behind diving are properly taught without frightening the students with the math before the physics are taught and the computers are thoroughly explained and taught, I believe that computer diving is far safer than table diving.

One poster mentioned that the user was locked out of their computer and went back to diving on their tables. Most likely, the computer locked them out for a reason, such as failing to meet a deco obligation, too short a surface interval or some other problem. If the computer fails underwater, the dive is ended. PERIOD.

Just out of curiosity, when diving on tables, how do you keep track of time, depth, etc? Do you use watches, depth gauges and the like? Are they all analog or are they digital? What do you do if one of those fails?



Agreed!

I fear that many divers simply do what the computer says because that's what the computer says. They aren't aware of what the computer is computing and why.

Unless you understand the way the tables work and why they work that way, you can't appreciate / understand what your computer is doing. Ignorance of the processes involved leads divers to so stupid things when their computers fail, such as simply grabbing another one and taking a repetitive dive. Or relying upon their buddy's computer.

Double-agreed. I've heard too many stories of divers on live-aboards borrowing someone's spare computer because their's was broken... and turned out it was actually locked out for violating deco or something similar. And then there was the story of the guy who got tired of waiting for his computer to clear so he lowered it down to 15' on a rope so it would finish up without him and let him continue diving... oy.

On a personal note, I've met too many recent OW grads who complain they don't know how to use their computer beyond watch depth, watch time, and when it says come up, come up! Planning modes? WAY beyond what they're taught. I think there should be a mandatory 1/2 hr training session for each computer rented. That would at least be a start. And that training session should be repeated each time until the diver can demonstrate to the LDS that they have MASTERY over that particular make of computer.

Kinda along these lines, and I know this is "unreasonable"...It would be nice from a new divers stand point, if before you could purchase a dive computer the dive shop was bound by something...a registration card with PADI, NAUI,SSI... something... and the manufacture, that you had infact been taught the functions and understood them.

That this registration form had to be signed by the purchaser and seller for it to be legally sold. I never got any personal instructions at all on mine. I've had to teach myself everything with a vague manual about my computer. I'm slowly learning, only because I refuse to just use it as a watch and depth gauge.

It is a pain to have to teach yourself this when you are new anyway. Don't get me wrong, I love this Suunto Vyper and as time goes by I learn about another "Partition" so to speak within it. And once I "get it" I've got it, but until that point it is greek.

Firefyter
12-29-2007, 16:24
If the computer fails underwater, the dive is ended. PERIOD.




Why? If you've kept up with your depth, time, and air, and have redundancy, such as a watch and depth guage, you should still be able to finish your dive w/o problems. The computer is supposed to be a tool to assist, not replace, your brain. Of course, a basic knowledge of tables and NDL's is useful to accomplish this.

Firefyter
12-29-2007, 16:30
Kinda along these lines, and I know this is "unreasonable"...It would be nice from a new divers stand point, if before you could purchase a dive computer the dive shop was bound by something...a registration card with PADI, NAUI,SSI... something... and the manufacture, that you had infact been taught the functions and understood them.

That this registration form had to be signed by the purchaser and seller for it to be legally sold.

This would certainly eliminate ever getting one as a gift. Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather not have any more restrictions than there already are. With personal freedom comes personal responsibilities, and I'll gladly accept them.

P.S. I'll take that mean old Vyper off your hands for $100...... :D

ian
12-29-2007, 16:48
Rather than hijack this thread regarding LDS service and trainning, I've started a new thread here (http://forum.scubatoys.com/comments-questions-dont-fit-above/8046-did-you-get-equipment-training-your-lds.html#post112831)...

ian
12-29-2007, 17:12
Why? If you've kept up with your depth, time, and air, and have redundancy, such as a watch and depth guage, you should still be able to finish your dive w/o problems. The computer is supposed to be a tool to assist, not replace, your brain. Of course, a basic knowledge of tables and NDL's is useful to accomplish this.

Two things, Firefyter:

1) the point with that comment was that the computer going belly up is no more of a problem than ending the dive. AND, your gauge, watch, erc. can fail, too! Theyíre technology as well. If youíre diving on tables and your watch goes out, what do you do? Same thing as when your computer goes out.

2) Many times, you CANíT keep up with your depth, time and air properly on a watch.

For example, on a typical dive at the Avalon Dive Park, we might drop down at the orange buoy in 30 FSW. From there, we swim out and down to 90 FSW before coming back up to the Sue-Jac in 65-70FSW and then up along the breakwater in 30 FSW back to the stairs. Letís say we spend 40 minutes underwater. Neither your wheel nor your tables can handle that profile. Your dive computer can and does.

I was just reading through some threads on logging dives. A number of people posted that they log their dives and "keep track of things" by using their tables, too. R-I-G-H-T!

After the previous example, letís say we do a 60 minute surface interval followed by a swim out to the buoy near the swim platform and drop into 60FSW to find Oscar, the Sheephead, on the old platform. From there, we cruise over toward the Kismet in 65-70FSW followed by a stop at the Cousteau Plaque in 35FSW before returning to the stairs. We spend another 45 minutes underwater.

We grab another tank and, after another 60 minutes on the surface swim out to drop into 50FSW and swim along the rocks before coming back to the steps. This time, you squeeze out a nice 55 minute dive.

On the tables, you blew it on the first dive. The NDL for a dive to 90FSW is 25 minutes. You were 15 minutes over. No more dives for you! Off to the chamber!

Assuming the second dive was your first, you just scraped by. The NDL for a dive to 70FSW is 40 minutes. Oops! You blew that dive, too! Man, you are really in trouble on those tables.

Those profiles are not extreme from the Avalon Dive Park, either!

Nope, for my money, letís dump the tables, go to computers and teach the physics and computers properly and keep everyone safe!

Goober
12-29-2007, 17:49
Kinda along these lines, and I know this is "unreasonable"...It would be nice from a new divers stand point, if before you could purchase a dive computer the dive shop was bound by something...a registration card with PADI, NAUI,SSI... something... and the manufacture, that you had infact been taught the functions and understood them.

That this registration form had to be signed by the purchaser and seller for it to be legally sold.

This would certainly eliminate ever getting one as a gift. Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather not have any more restrictions than there already are. With personal freedom comes personal responsibilities, and I'll gladly accept them.

P.S. I'll take that mean old Vyper off your hands for $100...... :D

Do you circle the old from above, as they slowly walk as well?

Firefyter
12-29-2007, 19:03
Why? If you've kept up with your depth, time, and air, and have redundancy, such as a watch and depth guage, you should still be able to finish your dive w/o problems. The computer is supposed to be a tool to assist, not replace, your brain. Of course, a basic knowledge of tables and NDL's is useful to accomplish this.

Two things, Firefyter:

1) the point with that comment was that the computer going belly up is no more of a problem than ending the dive. AND, your gauge, watch, erc. can fail, too! Theyíre technology as well. If youíre diving on tables and your watch goes out, what do you do? Same thing as when your computer goes out.

2) Many times, you CANíT keep up with your depth, time and air properly on a watch.



Maybe I was unclear. I'm not arguing that tables are better. I was simply pointing out that this statement
If the computer fails underwater, the dive is ended. PERIOD. doesn't have to be the case. I also dive a computer, and at any time during a dive I can tell with a glance what my NDL is. I wear my computer wrist mount, and I dive horizontally with my arms out in the "dashboard" position, so I look at it at continually throughout the dive. If the computer craps out, I know within ~1 minute my NDL. With backup depth and time devices, I can continue my dive without having to end it NOW.

Firefyter
12-29-2007, 19:06
Do you circle the old from above, as they slowly walk as well?

Only if I think I can get a good deal on their walker :smilie39:

Goober
12-29-2007, 19:45
Do you circle the old from above, as they slowly walk as well?

Only if I think I can get a good deal on their walker :smilie39:

I gathered. Forgive me if I decline your generosity.

Soonerwink
12-30-2007, 08:48
This thread was originally started to just find out what agencies were not teaching tables. I had never heard of any. I do agree diving a computer is far better and easier. Not every diver has a computer though. Mostly new divers. I have a dive watch that keeps track of depth, temp, and dive time that I wear as a backup so that if something happens to my computer I can still finish my dive, including safety stops.

MSilvia
12-30-2007, 09:39
This thread was originally started to just find out what agencies were not teaching tables. I had never heard of any. I do agree diving a computer is far better and easier. Not every diver has a computer though. Mostly new divers. I have a dive watch that keeps track of depth, temp, and dive time that I wear as a backup so that if something happens to my computer I can still finish my dive, including safety stops.



Just out of curiosity, when diving on tables, how do you keep track of time, depth, etc? Do you use watches, depth gauges and the like? Are they all analog or are they digital? What do you do if one of those fails?

I generally use tables for planning dives with a decompression obligation, where being able to stick to the plan is critical, and demands some redundancy. For those dives, my left forearm will have a three paged wrist slate with a copy of the plan, and a Suunto wrist mount compass. My right forearm will have an O.M.S. digital bottom timer (UWatec makes a very similar bottom timer). I'll carry a backup analog depth gauge and bezeled analog Momentum watch in my drysuit pocket, along with a spare mask and a copy of the plan written on wetnotes.

If one fails on one of these dives, I'll switch to the backup and abort the dive according to the bailout plan on page 2 of the slate.

On beach dives around here, I'll use the same bottom timer, as depths rarely exceed 40 feet, and my NDL at that depth is over two hours. Even if I'm diving doubles from shore, I'm unlikely to want to dive much longer than two hours at a time without a surface interval, so I end up using the timer as a navigation tool as much as anything else. If it floods, I abort the dive and surface. I follow my smallest bubbles on ascent. Just keep it over forty feet and under two hours and I'm good to go. I don't need a computer for that, which is good, because I flooded my computer and haven't replaced it yet.

It occurred to me that I only really use the computer on dives in the 40 to 100 foot range, as for anything shallower it doesn't matter much, and for anything deeper it's worth planning deco. Since many of the dives I do in that range are wrecks, scallop hunts, or other square profiles, I think I'm going to try going without altogether for a while.

If it's true that agency standards permit certification of students who can't use dive tables, I find that deeply troubling.