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maverick
01-06-2008, 18:27
I travel to different dive sites with my filled tanks. Is this leagal to drive with filled tanks or not? Or should I get them filled at the dive site?

fyrediver
01-06-2008, 18:41
Well, not knowing your state laws, if they are laying down, and not prone to rolling, and have been "cleared," per hydrostatic testing, then it should be a reasonable task. If your going somewhere, and they have the ability to rent you a tank, to me, thats less dragging around crap. Although under pressure, its not liquid ox, and it wouldn't blow your car up, if the valve came off, the BOOM would soil your pants. Welders in most states have to chain bottles down, per OSHA reg's.

I won't pretend to be the resident expert on transposring cylinders, but two thoughts
1; we had 4-6 stacked in the back of an SUV, driving up and down rocky stoney roads here in Curacao, packed like above, with a sane and sober driver, and no BOOM yet.
2; if you don't think the bottles in a firetruck don't get shook to death wailing down the road (2,500psi.) and I've never seen one blow. Of course, stuff happens, but I don't think its a big risk if you pack them in, prevent them from rolling and banging, and drive sensible, I think you'll be fine. If it were under pressure, and flammable? hmmmmmm.:smiley13::smiley13:

Tom A
01-06-2008, 18:57
while in guam we would put 10-12 bottles in the back of a van a go diving some times driveing all over island but be carefull open back door we droped one just broke the knob of luckly

fyrediver
01-06-2008, 19:03
SEE!!! there ya' go, no earth shattering kaboom. Still some level of risk. Getting out of bed, is your first one, laying there too long, is one too.

Pack em' in snug, it should not be a big deal.

maverick
01-06-2008, 19:19
Thank U, sounds like I'm good 2 go.

JahJahwarrior
01-06-2008, 19:28
Both of those posts addressed the practicality, not the legality.


As far as I know, as long as you are transporting less than a certain....it's I think, a certain amount of gas, you can carry without any special permits. Once you reach a certain amount (volume) of compressed gasses, you need a permit. I want to say that this is what someone on another forum wrote, and that they figured out it was 30+ tanks to reach that limit. But, I could be wrong on that, I don't have the time to dig up those posts.

As long as you aren't doing anything else to get pulled over, I can almost garuntee you no law enforcement officers will be doing traffic stops to check and see if you have scuba tanks ;)

lifeispunny
01-09-2008, 16:17
I was told, and of course have not looked it up, but a DPS officer can and will check to make sure all the tests are current. The same way a dive shop will check before they fill.

From what this Dive Shop owner told me, it's illegal to transport out of date tanks. Keep everything up to date - no problems.

mwhities
01-09-2008, 16:25
I've been carrying my three tanks around for the last three months in the back of my Tribute. Never been pulled over but, I've dove with several HP, CS, and deputies. They've never given me a "heads up".

MSilvia
01-09-2008, 16:39
IFrom what this Dive Shop owner told me, it's illegal to transport out of date tanks. Keep everything up to date - no problems.
Nonsense. It may very well be illegal to transport them full without a current hydro though, I don't know.

CompuDude
01-09-2008, 18:18
If you're schlepping around 10 or fewer personal tanks, I wouldn't worry about it. There is a point at which special laws kick in (can't recall the details), but it's high enough that it's extraordinarily rare for an individual diver (or even a dive pair) to need to move around enough tanks to hit that mark.

kancho
01-09-2008, 18:50
Where will u get it filled LDS won't fill a non hydroed tank..

UCFKnightDiver
01-09-2008, 19:08
I have heard the sudden change in air pressure will blow all your windows out, if in fact it does happen to explode or the valve comes off, if this would acctually happen I dont know anyone have a clue?

BuzzGA
01-09-2008, 19:15
I drove 10 tanks from Tucson to San Carlos, Mex (about 8 hours) and back and had no problem with border patrol or cops on either side of the border.

CompuDude
01-09-2008, 19:26
I drove 10 tanks from Tucson to San Carlos, Mex (about 8 hours) and back and had no problem with border patrol or cops on either side of the border.

I've done the same with 12 tanks (3 people, 2 set of doubles each) at the California crossings. No issues with border patrol, although they did poke around with their flashlights quite a bit and check our ID's and passports extra carefully. Once they were satisfied we were really divers, they waived us through.

I think it's closer to 20 tanks that you start approaching commercial gas transport laws, but honestly, in the case of scuba tanks, it's rarely if ever enforced. I know a number of instructors that drive around with vans and trucks full of tanks (20-30+) on a regular basis and have been pulled over for traffic violations, but the cops never batted an eyelash at the tanks. I wouldn't want to push it, because it only takes one cop with a bad day and matching attitude to make life less fun, but I don't see myself transporting 20+ tanks anytime soon.

St.jimmy
01-19-2008, 01:02
As long as it'ds got the DOT approval and hydro test, its clear, IIRC

Crimediver
01-19-2008, 07:29
At 20 tanks a placards must be displayed on a vehicle, if I recall correctly. DOT makes it illegal to transport cylinders with pressure in them if they are out of hydro.

An out of date visual sticker does not mean squat as it is not a government regulation but rather a dive industry imposed standard.

I have had a burst disc go last summer in a vehicle as I was driving it. It was a 1987 Toyota 4Runner. Thought I had triggered an IED when it happened. When it went off I was driving down the road about 45 MPH. There was a load hiss of air escaping and a loud BANG that I first thought was my tailgate falling off. Startled, I first glanced in my rear view mirror and saw my tailgate was still there but a quick glance in my rearview mirror I saw a big black object sliding down the highway. It was my side window, It was the one that that had two panes of glass in it that slide back and forth. The air pressure had blown it out. It had been glued in with an adhesive and it was forced partially out. The loud bang had been the wind pressure from drivng down the road slamming the window into the side of my vehicle. It scared the hell out of me. Of course the tank was hissing and every speck of dust in the car made a dust storm. I grabbed the valve to cut off the air as I thought the tank knob had rolled open. No luck. Then I realized I had blown my burst disc. I ran back and picked up the window that had managed to survive and a tube of adhesive and a new burst disc and I was back in business again.

mike_s
01-19-2008, 21:04
Where will u get it filled LDS won't fill a non hydroed tank..

yeah right. half the time LDS's don't even check the hydro date or even if it's got a VIS sticker.

To get even worse, I've seen on a couple ocasions of shops renting tanks they were filling that were out of hydro. (not I'm not kidding).

Just because they are a LDS doesn't mean they know what they are doing and that they are following DOT or other laws.




I have heard the sudden change in air pressure will blow all your windows out, if in fact it does happen to explode or the valve comes off, if this would acctually happen I dont know anyone have a clue?

There are some pics of a car on the web somewhere that this supposedely happened to. windows blown out. I guess it depends on the car and the strength of the windows, etc....




I have had a burst disc go last summer in a vehicle as I was driving it. It was a 1987 Toyota 4Runner. Thought I had triggered an IED when it happened. [snip] I ran back and picked up the window that had managed to survive and a tube of adhesive and a new burst disc and I was back in business again.


You didn't have to change your shorts?

Crimediver
01-20-2008, 04:41
Just threw the shorts away.

scubasamurai
01-20-2008, 10:01
you guys should watch mythbusters, they did a thing on pressurized tanks, even shooting bullets at it , they could not get it to explode, but managed to show that if the valve breaks you have a nice little rocket!!!! went through concrete block walls and everything.

personally why drag you tanks?? saves a little money but think of your back lugging that stuff out of your trunk or bed.

mike_s
01-20-2008, 11:05
you guys should watch mythbusters, they did a thing on pressurized tanks, even shooting bullets at it , they could not get it to explode, but managed to show that if the valve breaks you have a nice little rocket!!!! went through concrete block walls and everything.

.

go search on SB for a thread by WhalerKyle called "I want to see a tank explode". They took several out and shot them and put the video up.

Ohio_diver16
01-22-2008, 12:32
I just got off the phone with one of my buddies who happens to be a cop. In the state of Ohio you can carry up to 25 tanks without permits, granted that they are all current in visual and hydro, and securely in place in the vehicle. I know I've gone to dive spots with 4 tanks and just had them lined up and wedged between the back seat and the front seats in a small car - in my truck however I just lay them out and strap them down with ratchet straps. The truck is an open bed and no one has said a thing - Hope this clears it up for someone.

JahJahwarrior
01-22-2008, 12:46
I highly doubt that a burst disc going would blow out all of your windows, unless the tank was right next to one. Because the air can only come out of that small hole so quickly, the overall air pressure in your car would not change dramatically, especially since most cars are not exactly air tight. If you had it right next to a window, I could see it getting damaged, or if you were in, say, a Pinto.....


But any car with an internal volume larger than a spare air should be fine. Still, play it safe with LP steels tanks with doubled discs. ;)

cummings66
01-22-2008, 17:15
Point of fact, on a car with a newly installed front windshield you can know the front window out by slamming the door.

When we used to do the stereo contests we could blow out a windshield from the sound pressure levels, but I think that's more than a burst disk would cause. Having had a burst disk let go on me in my vehicle I can say in a Taurus it did absolutly nothing more than scare me.

bmp51
01-22-2008, 21:56
Search your local state RS laws for info on gas limits... my site Nevada (NRS) has no law on its books (that I can find) related to transport of regular air. Propane, 100% o2, butane... etc.. yeah all requires more stuff.. scuba tans... not a dang thing...

I also called a lawyer I know asked him about transport w\ hydro w\out etc... he said "Never even heard of it..."

jcl06
02-17-2008, 17:11
ya i hope it is not against the law to drive with filled tanks. ive gone on a few trips ware we have had a truck and loaded like 20 tanks in it all full. we go to state parks so i would think that is that was the case the state officials would question me about it. i think that the only problem comes when transporting hazards materials.

navyhmc
02-18-2008, 01:01
AS long as you're not a commercial entity, your tank is legal if within hydro-DOT standard. State and local laws may vary, by unless you're supplying air for and entire boat, you'll be fine. I always travel to a dive site with full tanks. Refilling tanks is what a surface interval is for. That and a quick snack.

FWIW, if you live in a state with no laws limiting the number of tanks you cna transport, you are good to go in states/towns with restrictions-again, unless you're a commercial transport operator. It follows the same federal laws that state your car can't be cited in another state is it's legal in your home state (bumpers for example. CA has a legal height restriction but wjem a guy who lived in Co got ticketed and threatened with a tow due to a higher than CA legal bumper, he had to be let go - almost got in trouble, but the SGT knew the law.)

Suther2136
02-18-2008, 06:25
From a personal safety issue I would be sure to secure the tank from moving. If you manage to break a valve off, the tank will shred the car! It could easily go through your trunk, back seat and front seat and kill you before running out of air pressure.

SummerRunner
02-28-2008, 11:55
Looks like everyone pretty much covered this issue. Yrs ago, I was a tech ed teacher and had a welding class. Transporting high pressure tanks from the supply store at that time wasn't a problem as long as they were secured.

mark44883
02-28-2008, 12:19
your safe go 4 it

Hollywood703
03-01-2008, 07:24
Its illegal to Fill out of date hyrdro tanks. Its technically is illegal to transport a filled out of date hydro tank (Federal DOT law), however, standard Scuba tanks you PROBABLY wont get much grief from unless you have a truck bed full of Out of hydro Full tanks. Its the same o2 percentage as the air you breath everyday, and has no specific Explosive threshhold unlike 100% O2, the only real chance for explosion is if the tank is crushed while pressurized, or Overfilled and the burst disk is not correct.

newways
03-01-2008, 11:27
I think the bottom line is you don't have anything to worry about. Worst case scenario is the valve breaking off in an accident tuning the tank into a violent projectile. Strap them down and call it good :)

Kingpatzer
03-01-2008, 11:41
I travel to different dive sites with my filled tanks. Is this leagal to drive with filled tanks or not? Or should I get them filled at the dive site?

Depends on local laws.

In MN it's based on weight of the containers. You can carry up to about 28 tanks without incurring problems.

After that you need to have placards, special licenses (which oddly, don't exist for mere air ... but that's a different story), and can't carry passengers.

No Misses
03-07-2008, 09:37
DOT is the federal agency that controls transportation of compressed gas cylinders. CFR-49 173.115 (Code of federal Regulation) deals with the transport of compressed gas cylinders (HAZMAT).

If you are transporting cylinders for commercial purposes you have a higher standard than the rest of us. Go read the regs yourself. It will be an eye opener.

For those of us that are transporting cylinders for non-commercial purposes CFR-49 (Code of Federal Regulation-49) limits the amount of compressed gas that you can transport to <1000 lbs. This is a combined weight of the container (cylinder & valve) and the contents (Air). Air weighs .0802 lbs/cf. A Luxfer AL80 weighs 31.4 (empty) add that to 80 cf of air and you come up with 37.82 lbs. 1000/37.82 = 26 Full AL80 cylinders. So for me, I would limit my load to <27 cylinders. As an added measure I would fill out a HAZMAT manifest if I was going to be transporting a large quantity of cylinders or for a long distance. I have attached a sample manifest from the PSI website. Technically, you need to have a completed manifest, in the driver’s compartment of you vehicle, any time that you transport compressed gas. If you are the type that likes to mouth off to the law when you get a speeding ticket, you may want to have all of your paperwork in order. IMHO it would take a real A-hole to write you up for not having a manifest for a handful of cylinders. But, it could happen.

A cylinder is considered empty whenever it has <40 psig.

BTW: I often transport 12-15 cylinders. Maybe I’ll fill out a manifest (leave the date and quantity blank) and keep it in the glove compartment J

Here is a link to PSI distilation of the DOT HAZMAT rules Cylinders & Manifests (http://www.psicylinders.com/library/Current/Hazmat.htm)

Foxfyre
03-07-2008, 13:31
From a personal safety issue I would be sure to secure the tank from moving. If you manage to break a valve off, the tank will shred the car! It could easily go through your trunk, back seat and front seat and kill you before running out of air pressure.


Worst case scenario is the valve breaking off in an accident tuning the tank into a violent projectile.

There are plenty of very practical reasons to secuely store tanks during transit, but the classic notions mentioned above are old urban myths that are simply not correct.

captain
03-24-2008, 17:01
Its illegal to Fill out of date hyrdro tanks. Its technically is illegal to transport a filled out of date hydro tank (Federal DOT law), however, standard Scuba tanks you PROBABLY wont get much grief from unless you have a truck bed full of Out of hydro Full tanks. Its the same o2 percentage as the air you breath everyday, and has no specific Explosive threshhold unlike 100% O2, the only real chance for explosion is if the tank is crushed while pressurized, or Overfilled and the burst disk is not correct.

Not really, personal tanks in a personal vehicle do not come under DOT regulation. As a private individual I am not required to even have a current hydro if I fill it myself and I am not breaking any laws if I fill it without a current hydro.
DOT regulations only apply to transport in commerce, which basicly means someone is charging money to transport whatever it might be. DOT does not require that a tank that has a expired hydro be drained. It can be transported and used until empty. This goes on routinely with welding gas cylinders.

terrillja
03-24-2008, 17:19
From a personal safety issue I would be sure to secure the tank from moving. If you manage to break a valve off, the tank will shred the car! It could easily go through your trunk, back seat and front seat and kill you before running out of air pressure.


Worst case scenario is the valve breaking off in an accident tuning the tank into a violent projectile.

There are plenty of very practical reasons to secuely store tanks during transit, but the classic notions mentioned above are old urban myths that are simply not correct.
Well it was a welding cylinder, not a scuba cylinder, but did you see what happened to a cinderblock wall on myth busters? The wall was punched right through, and the cinderblock wall behind it sustained some serious damage. A compressed air cylinder can certainly be a projectile if the valve is snapped off.

elijahb
05-22-2008, 13:34
personally why drag you tanks?? saves a little money but think of your back lugging that stuff out of your trunk or bed.

You can do diving in remote areas where there is no dive shop. You can also fill your tanks at most fire halls if they are willing. Some people (not me) own a portable compressor so they can dive all day without leaving the site.

Charles R
05-22-2008, 13:50
Not sure why this was in the man laws forum so I moved it to the tanks section. Hope you might get some more replys here.:smiley20:

WD8CDH
05-23-2008, 09:42
It's actually still legal to transport or use out of date SCUBA tanks, you just can't FILL them.

ReefHound
05-23-2008, 10:42
Well it was a welding cylinder, not a scuba cylinder, but did you see what happened to a cinderblock wall on myth busters? The wall was punched right through, and the cinderblock wall behind it sustained some serious damage. A compressed air cylinder can certainly be a projectile if the valve is snapped off.

Did you also notice the cylinder was a good 60 feet away from the wall? There's a reason they went through all the trouble of setting up a guide track and getting the aim correct instead of simply placing the cylinder next to the wall. It needed that distance to overcome inertia and build up speed. I believe they said a person could have held it in place with one hand.

cummings66
05-23-2008, 10:49
No, you can fill a cylinder out of hydro and visual. A commercial place can't fill it though.

longtailbda
05-31-2008, 05:45
For all practical purposes you have nothing to worry about hence the DOT/hydrotest cert.

captain
06-01-2008, 10:58
A commercial place can't fill it though.

Maybe maybe not, they follow DOT regulations but I don't believe DOT directly addresses the filling of tanks, just the transportation of tanks which when transported commercially must follow DOT regulations. I believe but am not sure that a dive shop could fill your out of hydro cyilinder without breaking DOT regulations they just won't.

rawalker
06-01-2008, 14:05
Certain states require that all high pressure tanks be strapped to limit movement. That said there is no requirement to let anyone know you are transporting high pressure gas in a passanger vehicle. Commercial vehicles are required to display a sign so they can be pulled over for inspection at any time.

comet24
06-01-2008, 14:33
I drove our shop truck to the lake with over 50 tanks in it before. All full. Hope that was OK. We also crossed state lines. Had the tank police don't read this.

in_cavediver
06-01-2008, 15:56
I drove our shop truck to the lake with over 50 tanks in it before. All full. Hope that was OK. We also crossed state lines. Had the tank police don't read this.

By rights, this was a hazmat transport since it was for commercial buisness. Bill High with PSI has quite a bit of information about this and how DOT regs fit in. I'll try to dig up a link.